Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:56 AM, David Goldsmith d_l_goldsm...@yahoo.comwrote: --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Gökhan SEVER gokhanse...@gmail.com wrote: Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: I am having problem while trying to memory map a simple file (attached as test.txt) The file looks like a text file, but memmap is for binary files. Could that be the problem? Matthew I don't see such a restriction in memmap function based on its help Fixed (at least in the Numpy Doc Wiki, don't know how long it will take for that to propagate to a release) You mean you modified the rst documents in the numpy trunk? at or memmap? from IPython. Sorry, no authority over there. What do you mean by this? I thought it will happily work with text files too :( Not the soln. you were hoping for, I know, sorry. I was going to compare a script with memmap and loadtxt versions of data loading and processing. It still works fine with loadtxt :) gs ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
--- On Tue, 6/9/09, Gökhan SEVER gokhanse...@gmail.com wrote: You mean you modified the rst documents in the numpy trunk? No, at least I don't think so, I made the modification at: http://docs.scipy.org/numpy/docs/numpy.core.memmap.memmap/ and, IIUC, the auto-sync between the Wiki and the rst is one-way: rst changes automatically propagate to the Wiki, but not vice-versa; anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong, and if I'm right, please elaborate on precisely what has to happen for Wiki changes to be propagated to the rst (because I don't know). at or memmap? from IPython. Sorry, no authority over there. What do you mean by this? Sorry again, I don't do IPython, so when I saw at or memmap? from IPython I thought you must be referring to IPython's independent help doc system, and, by extension, the people who are responsible for it. But Robert set me straight. I thought it will happily work with text files too :( Not the soln. you were hoping for, I know, sorry. I was going to compare a script with memmap and loadtxt versions of data loading and processing. It still works fine with loadtxt :) Good. DG ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
I am having problem while trying to memory map a simple file (attached as
test.txt)
The file looks like a text file, but memmap is for binary files.
Could that be the problem?
Best,
Matthew
What's the reason again that memmap only works with binary files? Could the
functionality be extended to text files as well?
Python's mmap module support text file mapping, however I am getting another
error this time :(
In [1]: import mmap
In [2]: f = open('test.txt', 'r')
In [3]: map = mmap.mmap(f.fileno(), 0)
---
EnvironmentError Traceback (most recent call last)
/home/gsever/Desktop/src/range_calc/ipython console in module()
EnvironmentError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
I am on a Linux machine...
gs
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:41 AM, David Goldsmith d_l_goldsm...@yahoo.comwrote: --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Gökhan SEVER gokhanse...@gmail.com wrote: You mean you modified the rst documents in the numpy trunk? No, at least I don't think so, I made the modification at: http://docs.scipy.org/numpy/docs/numpy.core.memmap.memmap/ and, IIUC, the auto-sync between the Wiki and the rst is one-way: rst changes automatically propagate to the Wiki, but not vice-versa; anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong, and if I'm right, please elaborate on precisely what has to happen for Wiki changes to be propagated to the rst (because I don't know). I don't know that there are two way sync between the wiki and rst files. As far as I know, fixing the rst files is the right way to go. However, I might be wrong? ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
My present job - and the Summer Numpy Doc Marathon - is premised on making changes/additions through the Wiki; if anyone other than registered developers is to be messing w/ the rst, it's news to me. At this point, someone who knows should please step in and clearly explain the relationship between the Wiki and the rst (or point to the place on the Wiki where this is explained). Thanks! DG --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Gökhan SEVER gokhanse...@gmail.com wrote: From: Gökhan SEVER gokhanse...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap To: Discussion of Numerical Python numpy-discussion@scipy.org Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 11:53 PM On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:41 AM, David Goldsmith d_l_goldsm...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Gökhan SEVER gokhanse...@gmail.com wrote: You mean you modified the rst documents in the numpy trunk? No, at least I don't think so, I made the modification at: http://docs.scipy.org/numpy/docs/numpy.core.memmap.memmap/ and, IIUC, the auto-sync between the Wiki and the rst is one-way: rst changes automatically propagate to the Wiki, but not vice-versa; anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong, and if I'm right, please elaborate on precisely what has to happen for Wiki changes to be propagated to the rst (because I don't know). I don't know that there are two way sync between the wiki and rst files. As far as I know, fixing the rst files is the right way to go. However, I might be wrong? -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:51:19 -0500, Gökhan SEVER kirjoitti: What's the reason again that memmap only works with binary files? There are no separate text files and binary files. All files are binary, some just contain text that in some cases represents an array of numbers. Memmap views also text files as binary. It returns you an array representing the *character data* in the file. Could the functionality be extended to text files as well? In principle, yes. But this would need special parsing of the text in the memmap. Doing this right would be considerably more work than just representing the binary data. Also, I doubt that this would be very useful: representing large amounts of data as text is not efficient. I also think few people have interest in this feature. -- Pauli Virtanen ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 2:03 AM, David Goldsmith d_l_goldsm...@yahoo.comwrote: My present job - and the Summer Numpy Doc Marathon - is premised on making changes/additions through the Wiki; if anyone other than registered developers is to be messing w/ the rst, it's news to me. At this point, someone who knows should please step in and clearly explain the relationship between the Wiki and the rst (or point to the place on the Wiki where this is explained). Thanks! DG To me, docstring originated changes should be made on the actual source codes. Since they the preliminary sources for sphinx to work on integrating with rst documents under the /doc folder in the main numpy trunk. There is a daily doc build system running so each change will be reflected on the next build cycle. Also for a developer, just doing a svn up will fetch the necessary updated from the code-base in this case memmap.py file itself, from there on it's optional whether to read docstings from the file itself or via IPy or in another way. The philosophy I like in this design, a well written and documented code doesn't need an additional documentation because everything one needs is right in the code :) gs ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 02:20, Gökhan SEVERgokhanse...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 2:03 AM, David Goldsmith d_l_goldsm...@yahoo.com wrote: My present job - and the Summer Numpy Doc Marathon - is premised on making changes/additions through the Wiki; if anyone other than registered developers is to be messing w/ the rst, it's news to me. At this point, someone who knows should please step in and clearly explain the relationship between the Wiki and the rst (or point to the place on the Wiki where this is explained). Thanks! DG To me, docstring originated changes should be made on the actual source codes. Since they the preliminary sources for sphinx to work on integrating with rst documents under the /doc folder in the main numpy trunk. There is a daily doc build system running so each change will be reflected on the next build cycle. The changes in the doc wiki will get pushed to the docstrings in SVN. The Sphinx documentation for numpy.memmap is built from these docstrings. -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 02:20:00AM -0500, Gökhan SEVER wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 2:03 AM, David Goldsmith [1]d_l_goldsm...@yahoo.com wrote: My present job - and the Summer Numpy Doc Marathon - is premised on making changes/additions through the Wiki; if anyone other than registered developers is to be messing w/ the rst, it's news to me. At this point, someone who knows should please step in and clearly explain the relationship between the Wiki and the rst (or point to the place on the Wiki where this is explained). Thanks! DG To me, docstring originated changes should be made on the actual source codes. Since they the preliminary sources for sphinx to work on integrating with rst documents under the /doc folder in the main numpy trunk. There is a daily doc build system running so each change will be reflected on the next build cycle. Also for a developer, just doing a svn up will fetch the necessary updated from the code-base in this case memmap.py file itself, from there on it's optional whether to read docstings from the file itself or via IPy or in another way. The philosophy I like in this design, a well written and documented code doesn't need an additional documentation because everything one needs is right in the code :) The wiki is syncrhonised to the source. Everything that is edited in the source ends up in the wiki, and vice versa, althought editing the same docstring at both ends gives a conflict (which can be solved). I tend to encourage using the wiki, because it makes it easy to document for a non developper. Reviewing the changes is also easier. Gaël ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 2:13 AM, Pauli Virtanen p...@iki.fi wrote: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:51:19 -0500, Gökhan SEVER kirjoitti: What's the reason again that memmap only works with binary files? There are no separate text files and binary files. All files are binary, some just contain text that in some cases represents an array of numbers. Memmap views also text files as binary. It returns you an array representing the *character data* in the file. Could the functionality be extended to text files as well? In principle, yes. But this would need special parsing of the text in the memmap. Doing this right would be considerably more work than just representing the binary data. Also, I doubt that this would be very useful: representing large amounts of data as text is not efficient. I also think few people have interest in this feature. I was expecting to see a similar result to loadtxt() function with memmap(). I just can't map the numbers in to an array but the whole file represented as characters. Now I see why I don't see what it's actually in my test.txt in terms of numbers. Reading more from memmap.py, I see that it uses mmap module. Your explanations confirm my observation that text files should also work here --providing that missing special parsing. I don't have much idea of how to implement this... Gokhan ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
2009/6/10 David Goldsmith d_l_goldsm...@yahoo.com: My present job - and the Summer Numpy Doc Marathon - is premised on making changes/additions through the Wiki; if anyone other than registered developers is to be messing w/ the rst, it's news to me. At this point, someone who knows should please step in and clearly explain the relationship between the Wiki and the rst (or point to the place on the Wiki where this is explained). Thanks! DG To add to Robert's eplanation. The front page of the Doc-Wiki says: You do not need to be a SciPy developer to contribute, as any documentation changes committed directly to the Subversion repository by developers are automatically propogated here on a daily basis. This means that you can be sure the documentation reflected here is in sync with the most recent Scipy development efforts. All of the documentation in the Wiki is actually stored as plain text in rst format (this is what you see when you click on the edit link). The files are stored in a separate subversion repository to the official NumPy and SciPy repositories. The Doc-Wiki simply renders the rst formatted text and provides nice functionality for editing and navigating the documentation. For documentation to get from the Wiki's repo to the main NumPy and SciPy repo's someone (with commit privileges) must make a patch and apply it. Visit http://docs.scipy.org/numpy/patch/ and generate a patch to see what I mean. Any changes a developer checks into the main repo's will automatically be propogated to the Doc-Wiki repo once a day, to avoid things getting to confused. The upshot is, if you're a developer you can commit doc changes directly to the main repos. If you are not you can edit the rst docs in the Doc-Wiki and this will be committed to the main repos at some convenient time (usually just before a release). Cheers, Scott ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 02:25, Gökhan SEVERgokhanse...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 2:13 AM, Pauli Virtanen p...@iki.fi wrote: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:51:19 -0500, Gökhan SEVER kirjoitti: What's the reason again that memmap only works with binary files? There are no separate text files and binary files. All files are binary, some just contain text that in some cases represents an array of numbers. Memmap views also text files as binary. It returns you an array representing the *character data* in the file. Could the functionality be extended to text files as well? In principle, yes. But this would need special parsing of the text in the memmap. Doing this right would be considerably more work than just representing the binary data. Also, I doubt that this would be very useful: representing large amounts of data as text is not efficient. I also think few people have interest in this feature. I was expecting to see a similar result to loadtxt() function with memmap(). I just can't map the numbers in to an array but the whole file represented as characters. Now I see why I don't see what it's actually in my test.txt in terms of numbers. Reading more from memmap.py, I see that it uses mmap module. Your explanations confirm my observation that text files should also work here --providing that missing special parsing. I don't have much idea of how to implement this... No, numpy.memmap cannot be made to deal meaningfully with text files (except as an array of characters, perhaps, but that's not what we're talking about). In order to parse the text into an array of numbers, all of the memory has to be read. The resulting floating point array will not (and cannot) be synchronized in any way back to the text in the file. -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 2:26 AM, Scott Sinclair scott.sinclair...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/10 David Goldsmith d_l_goldsm...@yahoo.com: My present job - and the Summer Numpy Doc Marathon - is premised on making changes/additions through the Wiki; if anyone other than registered developers is to be messing w/ the rst, it's news to me. At this point, someone who knows should please step in and clearly explain the relationship between the Wiki and the rst (or point to the place on the Wiki where this is explained). Thanks! DG To add to Robert's eplanation. The front page of the Doc-Wiki says: You do not need to be a SciPy developer to contribute, as any documentation changes committed directly to the Subversion repository by developers are automatically propogated here on a daily basis. This means that you can be sure the documentation reflected here is in sync with the most recent Scipy development efforts. All of the documentation in the Wiki is actually stored as plain text in rst format (this is what you see when you click on the edit link). The files are stored in a separate subversion repository to the official NumPy and SciPy repositories. The Doc-Wiki simply renders the rst formatted text and provides nice functionality for editing and navigating the documentation. For documentation to get from the Wiki's repo to the main NumPy and SciPy repo's someone (with commit privileges) must make a patch and apply it. Visit http://docs.scipy.org/numpy/patch/ and generate a patch to see what I mean. Any changes a developer checks into the main repo's will automatically be propogated to the Doc-Wiki repo once a day, to avoid things getting to confused. The upshot is, if you're a developer you can commit doc changes directly to the main repos. If you are not you can edit the rst docs in the Doc-Wiki and this will be committed to the main repos at some convenient time (usually just before a release). Thanks for the clarification. It seems like the Wiki system simplifies the documentation process way much. ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
--- On Wed, 6/10/09, Gael Varoquaux gael.varoqu...@normalesup.org wrote: I tend to encourage using the wiki, because it makes it easy to document for a non developper. Reviewing the changes is also easier. And it provides a level of protection for the source; though a late-comer to this system, it's wisdom is plainly apparent, at least to me. OK, so the reconciliation is two-way, via SVN; I take it only registered developers have update/commit privileges? Does at least one developer check SVN at least once daily? DG ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
--- On Wed, 6/10/09, Scott Sinclair scott.sinclair...@gmail.com wrote: The front page of the Doc-Wiki says: You do not need to be a SciPy developer to contribute, as any documentation changes committed directly to the Subversion repository by developers are automatically propogated here on a daily basis. This means that you can be sure the documentation reflected here is in sync with the most recent Scipy development efforts. Which is why I though the sync was one way. Unfortunately, I didn't now read on (but, as is often the case, what follows makes much more sense now that I know what it means ;-) ). DG All of the documentation in the Wiki is actually stored as plain text in rst format (this is what you see when you click on the edit link). The files are stored in a separate subversion repository to the official NumPy and SciPy repositories. The Doc-Wiki simply renders the rst formatted text and provides nice functionality for editing and navigating the documentation. For documentation to get from the Wiki's repo to the main NumPy and SciPy repo's someone (with commit privileges) must make a patch and apply it. Visit http://docs.scipy.org/numpy/patch/ and generate a patch to see what I mean. Any changes a developer checks into the main repo's will automatically be propogated to the Doc-Wiki repo once a day, to avoid things getting to confused. The upshot is, if you're a developer you can commit doc changes directly to the main repos. If you are not you can edit the rst docs in the Doc-Wiki and this will be committed to the main repos at some convenient time (usually just before a release). Cheers, Scott ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:36:07AM -0700, David Goldsmith wrote: OK, so the reconciliation is two-way, via SVN; I take it only registered developers have update/commit privileges? Does at least one developer check SVN at least once daily? The way the web application works, is that it can generate standard diffs to SVN, using the 'patch' link, in the top bar. If you have commit rights on numpy, you can apply them. Also, it pulls the docstrings from the svn nightly. Any conflicts are tracked similarly to SVN, and are listed in the 'Merge' page, where you can resolve them, as you do in SVN. We should make you administrator of the web app fairly soon. Gaël ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
2009/6/10 David Goldsmith d_l_goldsm...@yahoo.com: --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Scott Sinclair scott.sinclair...@gmail.com wrote: The front page of the Doc-Wiki says: You do not need to be a SciPy developer to contribute, as any documentation changes committed directly to the Subversion repository by developers are automatically propogated here on a daily basis. This means that you can be sure the documentation reflected here is in sync with the most recent Scipy development efforts. Which is why I though the sync was one way. Unfortunately, I didn't now read on (but, as is often the case, what follows makes much more sense now that I know what it means ;-) ). DG I've modified the Introduction on the front page http://docs.scipy.org/numpy/Front Page Should be clear as mud now :) Cheers, Scott ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
Thanks, Scott. Clear as mud. (Just kidding, of course.) ;-) DG --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Scott Sinclair scott.sinclair...@gmail.com wrote: From: Scott Sinclair scott.sinclair...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap To: Discussion of Numerical Python numpy-discussion@scipy.org Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 1:06 AM 2009/6/10 David Goldsmith d_l_goldsm...@yahoo.com: --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Scott Sinclair scott.sinclair...@gmail.com wrote: The front page of the Doc-Wiki says: You do not need to be a SciPy developer to contribute, as any documentation changes committed directly to the Subversion repository by developers are automatically propogated here on a daily basis. This means that you can be sure the documentation reflected here is in sync with the most recent Scipy development efforts. Which is why I though the sync was one way. Unfortunately, I didn't now read on (but, as is often the case, what follows makes much more sense now that I know what it means ;-) ). DG I've modified the Introduction on the front page http://docs.scipy.org/numpy/Front Page Should be clear as mud now :) Cheers, Scott ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
[Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
Hello,
I am having problem while trying to memory map a simple file (attached as
test.txt)
In IPython
data = memmap('test.txt', mode='r', dtype=double, shape=(3,5))
data
memmap([[ 3.45616501e-86, 4.85780149e-33, 4.85787493e-33,
5.07185821e-86, 4.85780159e-33],
[ 4.85787493e-33, 5.07185821e-86, 1.28444278e-57,
1.39804066e-76, 4.85787506e-33],
[ 4.83906715e-33, 4.85784273e-33, 4.85787506e-33,
4.83906715e-33, 4.85784273e-33]])
which is not what is in the file. Tried different dtype float options, but
always the same result.
Could you tell me what could be wrong?
Thanks...
Gökhan
42501. 99. 99. 99. 99.
42502. 99. 99. 99. 99.
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
Hi, I am having problem while trying to memory map a simple file (attached as test.txt) The file looks like a text file, but memmap is for binary files. Could that be the problem? Best, Matthew ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, I am having problem while trying to memory map a simple file (attached as test.txt) The file looks like a text file, but memmap is for binary files. Could that be the problem? Best, Matthew I don't see such a restriction in memmap function based on its help at or memmap? from IPython. http://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy/reference/generated/numpy.memmap.html#numpy.memmap I thought it will happily work with text files too :( Gökhan ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
--- On Tue, 6/9/09, Gökhan SEVER gokhanse...@gmail.com wrote: Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: I am having problem while trying to memory map a simple file (attached as test.txt) The file looks like a text file, but memmap is for binary files. Could that be the problem? Matthew I don't see such a restriction in memmap function based on its help Fixed (at least in the Numpy Doc Wiki, don't know how long it will take for that to propagate to a release) at or memmap? from IPython. Sorry, no authority over there. I thought it will happily work with text files too :( Not the soln. you were hoping for, I know, sorry. DG ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Question about memmap
Sorry for the double post, my link and/or browser was acting up. DG ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
