Re: [nysbirds-l] Iceland gulls
Phil's point is true and I don't believe I was a proponent of stating that I didn't think hybridization was a likely cause. I am just not well-read or informed at all about what really is going on with the whole Iceland-Thayer's relationship..it is a murky gene pool with no lifeguard. Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com From: Phil Jeffrey To: julian hough Cc: & [NYSBIRDS] Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Iceland gulls To me it makes no more sense to dismiss hybridization amongst those two species as a mechanism for primary darkening than it does to invoke it. Just because it's not proven doesn't mean the alternative is true either. It would be one thing if, say, glaucoides in Iceland (the country) were darkening its primaries or Glaucous Gulls or even (American) Herring Gulls were seen to do so, but I'm not aware of any such trend. A Western birder might find the idea that two similar gull species *not* hybridizing to be alien to their experience, for example. >From my POV it makes sense to attempt to normalize intra-(sub)species >variation by looking at that spread in Iceland glaucoides populations in, say, >Iceland itself. While more or less anything can happen with gulls, I'd be a >lot less likely to find the "intrinsic variation" idea worthy of Occam's Razor >if the range of variation in the bird-oft-referred-to-as-Kumlein's >substantially exceeds that in the glaucoides subspecies. Or, more plainly put - point me to the preponderance of evidence that hybridization is *not* going on in this form of Iceland Gull (or whatever it is). Phil On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:29 PM, julian hough wrote: Shai distilled down some common-sensical aspect of the complications surrounding Iceland Gulls and what our perceptions are about how solid these are as a taxon. As an exiled Brit, I grew up on nominate glaucoides Iceland Gull and it often involved searching through these for a vagrant kumlieni "Kumlien's" Iceland Gull. >It is more a continuing bad-habit that I refer to them as Kumlien's Gull here >since, as Shai points out, there really isn't that much of a need for >separating them to sub-species level in the US, as perhaps there is in Europe >where kumlieni shows up more regularly. > > >Interestingly, adult iceland Gulls were scarce here in New England compared to >the numbers of first-cycle birds so it was always cool to see an adult. The >ones I have seen here in CT have all been mid-grey – to pale grey pigmented >and black-primaried individuals seem rather uncommon at this latitude. Not >sure that as quantitative evidence it amounts to anything from a scientific >aspect but I wonder what drives the range of pigmentation in these >birds…hormones, geography, actual hybridization? > > >There seems to be a lot of talk – confusion – is perhaps more apt about what >these birds are based on perpetuated myths about "hybrid swarms "of kumlieni >or interbreeding populations of kumlieni x thayeri etc and as Shai points out >it may not benefit us, in lieu of quantitative and qualitative scientific >study, to continue thinking that black-primaries Iceland Gulls here in the US >have "x" amounts of thayeri genes flowing through them and more >whiter-primaried birds have perhaps a more glaucoides influence. > > >As for separating adults from nominate glaucoides Iceland Gulls from Northern >Europe, certain birds in Newfoundland seem to check the right boxes so with >care the odd bird might be identifiable by sharp observers. > > >Intrestingly, the long-calls of these white-winged gulls was recently studied >and written up by Belgium birder Peter Adriaens here: >http://birdingfrontiers.com/2014/01/09/calls-of-thayers-kumliens-and-iceland-gulls/ > > >Good birding, > > >Julian > >Julian Hough >New Haven, CT 06519 >www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com > > > > >-- >NYSbirds-L List Info: >Welcome and Basics >Rules and Information >Subscribe, Configuration and Leave >Archives: >The Mail Archive >Surfbirds >BirdingOnThe.Net >Please submit your observations to eBird! >-- -- "If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge" - Henry Spencer -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
[nysbirds-l] Iceland gulls
Shai distilled down some common-sensical aspect of the complications surrounding Iceland Gulls and what our perceptions are about how solid these are as a taxon. As an exiled Brit, I grew up on nominate glaucoides Iceland Gull and it often involved searching through these for a vagrant kumlieni "Kumlien's" Iceland Gull. It is more a continuing bad-habit that I refer to them as Kumlien's Gull here since, as Shai points out, there really isn't that much of a need for separating them to sub-species level in the US, as perhaps there is in Europe where kumlieni shows up more regularly. Interestingly, adult iceland Gulls were scarce here in New England compared to the numbers of first-cycle birds so it was always cool to see an adult. The ones I have seen here in CT have all been mid-grey – to pale grey pigmented and black-primaried individuals seem rather uncommon at this latitude. Not sure that as quantitative evidence it amounts to anything from a scientific aspect but I wonder what drives the range of pigmentation in these birds…hormones, geography, actual hybridization? There seems to be a lot of talk – confusion – is perhaps more apt about what these birds are based on perpetuated myths about "hybrid swarms "of kumlieni or interbreeding populations of kumlieni x thayeri etc and as Shai points out it may not benefit us, in lieu of quantitative and qualitative scientific study, to continue thinking that black-primaries Iceland Gulls here in the US have "x" amounts of thayeri genes flowing through them and more whiter-primaried birds have perhaps a more glaucoides influence. As for separating adults from nominate glaucoides Iceland Gulls from Northern Europe, certain birds in Newfoundland seem to check the right boxes so with care the odd bird might be identifiable by sharp observers. Intrestingly, the long-calls of these white-winged gulls was recently studied and written up by Belgium birder Peter Adriaens here: http://birdingfrontiers.com/2014/01/09/calls-of-thayers-kumliens-and-iceland-gulls/ Good birding, Julian Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
[nysbirds-l] California Pelagics 2013
For anyone interested, I've posted some photos and a trip list from a pelagic several CT birders did off the West Coast recently. In addition to the regular trips run by Debi Shearwater, we took a trip out of Half Moon Bay, near San Francisco run by Alvaro Jaramillo. I highly recommend these trips as an addition, or an alternative to the Monterey Bay trips, which were unimpressive (by CA standards) during our visit. Alvaro runs a fun and informative trip and it seems most of the better birds were seen out of Half Moon Bay this fall, including rarities that consisted of at least two Great Shearwaters and a Manx Shearwater - being from the East, two species not likely to get our adrenalin going! He plans to run some back to back trips in the future, primarily for East coast birders that make the trek out west and want to maximize their pelagic birding. Enjoy! http://naturescapeimages.wordpress.com/2013/10/17/planned-it-booked-it-did-it/ Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
[nysbirds-l] West Coast Pelagics - another option
I wanted to let people that have an interest in west coast pelagics, that there are other opportunities than leaving from Monterey. Myself and a few other CT birders are taking a few trips this September including one out of Half Moon Bay, run by Alvaro Jaramillo. For the traveler, Half Moon Bay is located close to San Francisco Airport and is in some ways more convenient than Monterey if time is tight. Although Shearwater Journeys has a more trips, Alvaro plans to run more back to back trips in the future to be more appealing to East Coast birders. These trips have recorded such megas as White-chinned and Hawaiian Petrels and Short-tailed Albatross. Check-out: http://naturescapeimages.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/planned-it-booked-it-doing-it/ I will let you know how we get on! Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
[nysbirds-l] Gray-headed Gull feather moult
I haven't had chance to upload any of my shots of this bird after we saw it yesterday, when it was picked up by Harry (last name?) But, I did notice, like Shai, that it seemed to be moulting and presumbaly into adult winter. I am not sure if it means anything, but the tips of the primaries are rather frayed and seem to have "pinholes" in them. I am not sure what the cause of these small holes would be, but they look strange; also the tips of the tail are rather heavily frayed. The secondaries on one wing also look as though they are shorter and are perhaps growing in? It would be interesting to hear from others with experience how this bird's plumage fits in with moult cycles of Gray-headed and whether anything is out of sync with its feather wear. All in all, a surreal first time visit to Coney Island and watching this mega flying around beach-goers like a typical laugher! Julian Hough, New Haven, CT -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
