Re: [nysbirds-l] the bottom line....

[Alicia Plotkin]

If birders want a list primarily devoted to rare bird sightings, then 
starting a new list seems like a good idea.  As already was pointed out, 
the NYSBIRDS list information and rules state that the "primary purpose 
of the List is to disseminate information about wild bird sightings in 
and around New York State in a timely manner and to provide an effective 
electronic forum for New York State area birders" along with "questions 
and limited discussion on topics such as bird behavior, identification, 
conservation, and distribution, especially as these subjects relate to 
wild birds in and around New York State ... ."  There appears to be no 
intention for this list to function just as a rare bird alert, although 
rare birds are certainly wild birds and their sightings do get reported 
along with those of more common birds.

I personally am interested in what is being seen in other areas, whether 
or not rare - particularly during migration it helps me prepare for what 
might be headed my way.  As someone who is almost entirely a 'patch' 
birder and not interested in chasing rare birds, NYSBIRDS is a great 
resource.  It's easy to imagine, however, how someone who is primarily 
interested in rare birds would find it unsatisfactory and would want to 
develop a new list - when only a small fraction of emails is of 
interest, that must be tedious.  I hope those folks are able to put 
together something that meets their needs, which NYSBIRDS wasn't really 
intended to do.

 Alicia

P.S.  This has nothing to do with Mr. Grant's message, but if anyone 
feels that a post is inappropriate in tone or content, the list rules 
also provide that the list owner should be contacted rather than a 
message posted to the list as a whole.  It's hard to see the 
justification for publicly disparaging anyone.  The list owner is Chris 
Tessaglia-Hymes, and his email address isc...@cornell.edu 
.


On 6/11/2011 6:30 PM, Isaac Grant wrote:
> The real problem with reporting on this list is really a matter of 
> style and not content in my opinion.  Some people use this list to 
> report information on common, resident or migrant birds and others use 
> this list to report regional rarities and rare migrants.  So if you 
> are only looking to see reports of "rare" birds, then reading about 
> another Coopers Hawk in a yard and a common local breeder like a 
> Hummingbird is a waste of their time.  The reporting of common birds 
> in their proper habitat at the right time of year is mundane and 
> boring to some and not necessary to read about or take the time to 
> delete in an email.  While I do not personally see the point in 
> reporting the obvious, this list does allow for reporting whatever 
> one wants to about birds in NY, however common and mundane they may 
> be.  While some might enjoy reading about a sighting of an extremely 
> common winter visitor, others may find it annoying to have their inbox 
> inundated with emails that state the birding obvious.  And the 
> propblem with just removing yourself from the listserve is that you 
> may miss an email of a rare or difficult to find bird.  So I think 
> that the only solution to these recurring problems is for all 700 or 
> so people involved in this list to only report "rare" birds on another 
> list such as metro birds and to not use NYSBIRDS at all.   Let 
> NYSBIRDS be a list to report common birds and interesting bird stories 
> and then another list should be formed that all must agree to use to 
> report rare birds throughout the state and not just in region 10. I 
> would be more than happy to start the list but it will only be 
> successful if all involved agree to use it.  I think that is really 
> the only answer to this problem and should put an end to all of the 
> name calling and finger pointing and importance of where someone 
> lives.  Actually I am shocked that there is not one resource to report 
> rare birds throughout the state and not just locally.  I mean I want 
> to know if there is a chaseable Sabines Gull in Niagra, or an easy to 
> see Spruce Grouse or a Western Meadowlark in western NY and I could 
> really care less about reading about a nesting hummingbird (unless it 
> is not a Ruby throated) or a Coopers Hawk at a feeder (even my own).  
> When ebirds nyc was first started it was only for local "rare" birds 
> but after the list owner had to give it up due to time restrictions, 
> it changed into something that I really can not even stomach to read.  
> I just take it as one report after another of the obvious, but again, 
> I keep my membership to the list becasue I may miss some actual 
> intersting information on a rare bird if I just delete all emails from 
> that list.  I personally feel the same about NYSBIRDS as well.  I find 
> most of the reports to be statements of the obvious if you have any 
> clue as to what birds should be in suitable habitat at the right 

Re: [nysbirds-l] the bottom line....

[Phil Jeffrey]

The list partitioning into rare and common birds is basically
illusory.  NJ makes a go of it but most of the rare birds are carried
on the "general" list, and often get there first.  If you compare the
rarity reporting this spring, BTBlue seems to have covered very few of
them.  Some have been reported here (NYSBirds) or eBirdsNYC (most).

What a lot of birders don't get is that it takes effort to do the
rare/common partitioning.  Jack Siler wrote software on
birdingonthe.net to pull species out of RBAs, but that's simpler since
RBAs have a fairly structured format.  Nevertheless that was clearly
some hours of coding to create that.  To run a rare bird list would
require an effort during migration that dwarfs the minimal effort
needed to clobber 20 emails.  But rather than complain about current
lists, ante up and put in that effort.  Ben C and Karen F take a
certain amount of time out of their lives to make sure that the RBA
now appears online.  Then there's the RBA compilers themselves, etc.
This stuff does not magically appear.

Probably one's best bet for someone that wants to put in no effort
would be something like the BirdsEye smartphone app, which relies on
Cornell's eBird reporting and can pull out unusual sightings in local
areas.  Of course, people have to report to eBird in the first place,
which circles back onto requiring some sort of effort.

Most people on lists join and read and do not post.  I understand why
this happens, but those people also need to understand that people
that *do* post take time out of their lives to do so.  And lost in
this whole discussion is one point: I think it's fair to say that
Ruby-throated Hummingbird is not a widespread breeder in NYC, although
perhaps someone will tell me if I'm wrong in that.

Phil

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RE: [nysbirds-l] the bottom line....

[Isaac Grant]

The real problem with reporting on this list is really a matter of style and 
not content in my opinion.  Some people use this list to report information on 
common, resident or migrant birds and others use this list to report regional 
rarities and rare migrants.  So if you are only looking to see reports of 
"rare" birds, then reading about another Coopers Hawk in a yard and a common 
local breeder like a Hummingbird is a waste of their time.  The reporting of 
common birds in their proper habitat at the right time of year is mundane and 
boring to some and not necessary to read about or take the time to delete in an 
email.  While I do not personally see the point in reporting the obvious, this 
list does allow for reporting whatever one wants to about birds in NY, however 
common and mundane they may be.  While some might enjoy reading about a 
sighting of an extremely common winter visitor, others may find it annoying to 
have their inbox inundated with emails that state the birding obvious.  And the 
propblem with just removing yourself from the listserve is that you may miss an 
email of a rare or difficult to find bird.  So I think that the only solution 
to these recurring problems is for all 700 or so people involved in this list 
to only report "rare" birds on another list such as metro birds and to not use 
NYSBIRDS at all.   Let NYSBIRDS be a list to report common birds and 
interesting bird stories and then another list should be formed that all must 
agree to use to report rare birds throughout the state and not just in region 
10. I would be more than happy to start the list but it will only be successful 
if all involved agree to use it.  I think that is really the only answer to 
this problem and should put an end to all of the name calling and finger 
pointing and importance of where someone lives.  Actually I am shocked that 
there is not one resource to report rare birds throughout the state and not 
just locally.  I mean I want to know if there is a chaseable Sabines Gull in 
Niagra, or an easy to see Spruce Grouse or a Western Meadowlark in western NY 
and I could really care less about reading about a nesting hummingbird (unless 
it is not a Ruby throated) or a Coopers Hawk at a feeder (even my own).  When 
ebirds nyc was first started it was only for local "rare" birds but after the 
list owner had to give it up due to time restrictions, it changed into 
something that I really can not even stomach to read.  I just take it as one 
report after another of the obvious, but again, I keep my membership to the 
list becasue I may miss some actual intersting information on a rare bird if I 
just delete all emails from that list.  I personally feel the same about 
NYSBIRDS as well.  I find most of the reports to be statements of the obvious 
if you have any clue as to what birds should be in suitable habitat at the 
right time of year.  If everyone would like to join this new list to report 
only rarities throughout the state, please respond to me personally  and I 
would be more than happy to start the list.  But if all involved are not 
willing to cooperate with eachother, then all of our emails will be inundated 
with petty arguements that do nothing to help any of us see some birds. 
Otherwise, we have to continue to have this same sort of arguement (which I 
have been a part of in the past) with no real answer because of a difference in 
styles. SO what do you say, lets make one resource that all in the state can 
use to report only "rare" birds to.  Anyone who reports otherwise will be 
kicked off the list immediately so the list will keep its integrity and 
purpose. Again, while some may say just hit delete and what is the big deal, I 
completely disagree.  If I get 10-20 emails a day (more in spring) that I need 
to delete, I consider that a major waste of my time.  I work 2 jobs, I have 2 
kids and spend much of my free time renovating my house or with my family or 
sleeping.  Hitting delete 20 times a day is a waste of my time and I know many 
others that feel the same. Thoughts
-Isaac


 


Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 14:51:24 -0500
From: askild...@verizon.net
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
Subject: [nysbirds-l] the bottom line



 the bottom line is that the original post was inappropriate and flat out 
incorrect. the list rules allow such posts.  i will not respond to the comments 
from the "dissenter", i, and appararently many others, i am told, take it from 
where it comes.  
 
JPA 
 John Askildsen Millbrook, New York
--
NYSbirds-L List Info:
Welcome and Basics 
Rules and Information 
Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
Archives:
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Surfbirds
BirdingOnThe.Net
Please submit your observations to eBird!
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http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeCo

RE: [nysbirds-l] the bottom line....

[Isaac Grant]

The real problem with reporting on this list is really a matter of style and 
not content in my opinion.  Some people use this list to report information on 
common, resident or migrant birds and others use this list to report regional 
rarities and rare migrants.  So if you are only looking to see reports of 
rare birds, then reading about another Coopers Hawk in a yard and a common 
local breeder like a Hummingbird is a waste of their time.  The reporting of 
common birds in their proper habitat at the right time of year is mundane and 
boring to some and not necessary to read about or take the time to delete in an 
email.  While I do not personally see the point in reporting the obvious, this 
list does allow for reporting whatever one wants to about birds in NY, however 
common and mundane they may be.  While some might enjoy reading about a 
sighting of an extremely common winter visitor, others may find it annoying to 
have their inbox inundated with emails that state the birding obvious.  And the 
propblem with just removing yourself from the listserve is that you may miss an 
email of a rare or difficult to find bird.  So I think that the only solution 
to these recurring problems is for all 700 or so people involved in this list 
to only report rare birds on another list such as metro birds and to not use 
NYSBIRDS at all.   Let NYSBIRDS be a list to report common birds and 
interesting bird stories and then another list should be formed that all must 
agree to use to report rare birds throughout the state and not just in region 
10. I would be more than happy to start the list but it will only be successful 
if all involved agree to use it.  I think that is really the only answer to 
this problem and should put an end to all of the name calling and finger 
pointing and importance of where someone lives.  Actually I am shocked that 
there is not one resource to report rare birds throughout the state and not 
just locally.  I mean I want to know if there is a chaseable Sabines Gull in 
Niagra, or an easy to see Spruce Grouse or a Western Meadowlark in western NY 
and I could really care less about reading about a nesting hummingbird (unless 
it is not a Ruby throated) or a Coopers Hawk at a feeder (even my own).  When 
ebirds nyc was first started it was only for local rare birds but after the 
list owner had to give it up due to time restrictions, it changed into 
something that I really can not even stomach to read.  I just take it as one 
report after another of the obvious, but again, I keep my membership to the 
list becasue I may miss some actual intersting information on a rare bird if I 
just delete all emails from that list.  I personally feel the same about 
NYSBIRDS as well.  I find most of the reports to be statements of the obvious 
if you have any clue as to what birds should be in suitable habitat at the 
right time of year.  If everyone would like to join this new list to report 
only rarities throughout the state, please respond to me personally  and I 
would be more than happy to start the list.  But if all involved are not 
willing to cooperate with eachother, then all of our emails will be inundated 
with petty arguements that do nothing to help any of us see some birds. 
Otherwise, we have to continue to have this same sort of arguement (which I 
have been a part of in the past) with no real answer because of a difference in 
styles. SO what do you say, lets make one resource that all in the state can 
use to report only rare birds to.  Anyone who reports otherwise will be 
kicked off the list immediately so the list will keep its integrity and 
purpose. Again, while some may say just hit delete and what is the big deal, I 
completely disagree.  If I get 10-20 emails a day (more in spring) that I need 
to delete, I consider that a major waste of my time.  I work 2 jobs, I have 2 
kids and spend much of my free time renovating my house or with my family or 
sleeping.  Hitting delete 20 times a day is a waste of my time and I know many 
others that feel the same. Thoughts
-Isaac


 


Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 14:51:24 -0500
From: askild...@verizon.net
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
Subject: [nysbirds-l] the bottom line



 the bottom line is that the original post was inappropriate and flat out 
incorrect. the list rules allow such posts.  i will not respond to the comments 
from the dissenter, i, and appararently many others, i am told, take it from 
where it comes.  
 
JPA 
 John Askildsen Millbrook, New York
--
NYSbirds-L List Info:
Welcome and Basics 
Rules and Information 
Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
Archives:
The Mail Archive
Surfbirds
BirdingOnThe.Net
Please submit your observations to eBird!
--
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http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
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http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail

Re: [nysbirds-l] the bottom line....

[Phil Jeffrey]

The list partitioning into rare and common birds is basically
illusory.  NJ makes a go of it but most of the rare birds are carried
on the general list, and often get there first.  If you compare the
rarity reporting this spring, BTBlue seems to have covered very few of
them.  Some have been reported here (NYSBirds) or eBirdsNYC (most).

What a lot of birders don't get is that it takes effort to do the
rare/common partitioning.  Jack Siler wrote software on
birdingonthe.net to pull species out of RBAs, but that's simpler since
RBAs have a fairly structured format.  Nevertheless that was clearly
some hours of coding to create that.  To run a rare bird list would
require an effort during migration that dwarfs the minimal effort
needed to clobber 20 emails.  But rather than complain about current
lists, ante up and put in that effort.  Ben C and Karen F take a
certain amount of time out of their lives to make sure that the RBA
now appears online.  Then there's the RBA compilers themselves, etc.
This stuff does not magically appear.

Probably one's best bet for someone that wants to put in no effort
would be something like the BirdsEye smartphone app, which relies on
Cornell's eBird reporting and can pull out unusual sightings in local
areas.  Of course, people have to report to eBird in the first place,
which circles back onto requiring some sort of effort.

Most people on lists join and read and do not post.  I understand why
this happens, but those people also need to understand that people
that *do* post take time out of their lives to do so.  And lost in
this whole discussion is one point: I think it's fair to say that
Ruby-throated Hummingbird is not a widespread breeder in NYC, although
perhaps someone will tell me if I'm wrong in that.

Phil

--

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ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
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