Re: [RELEASE]: status update where we are and plan to move forward
On 3/28/12 10:11 AM, Risto Jääskeläinen wrote: Jürgen Schmidt [jogischm...@googlemail.com] kirjoitti: Hi Andrea, On 3/28/12 12:43 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: Jürgen Schmidt wrote: A RC with en-US only is not really what our community is expecting. Exactly. UI We will include all languages where we have a 100% complete translation for the UI (excepting the translation for the test automation tool like for ru) HELP For help I would not really rely on a 100% translation and would accept 95%. These figures seem very high, we usually required 80% (both UI and Help), see http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages thanks for this feedback, I wasn't aware of this numbers and it seems that my own expectations are higher than what we had before. I am open for that and we can reduce the numbers but doesn't it make sense to have 100% for UI and a lower number like the 80-85% for help. Help is not so important from my point view (who never used help and preferred google) but I think the UI should be complete. I am eager to learn from others and their experience and we should define together some boundaries for the future. And, now that https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=118895 is fixed (thanks!) the Italian version, even if at 95%-99%, would definitely be ready to ship. We will reach 100% anyway (Paolo knows more but there are more than a dozen vounteers so it won't be a problem for us), but I'm speaking in general: excluding a language at 95%-99% wouldn't make sense. If there are concerns about problems in the translation process/data, then I'd prefer to distribute only builds for which we can identify a volunteer who takes care of testing that the translation is OK in the common use cases. Exactly that is what I have in mind we will only ship languages where volunteers have shown up so far. Juergen I think whole situation of meritocrazy is little bit wisted. The product will be what developers want not what users want. Ok if we ask user who want to use Finnish AOO would he prefer 100% English product over 80% Finnish product? I guess it depends how good his/hers English is. But if he don't understand English at all he prefer 80% translation over 0% translation (=100% English). So I think the old limits are good enought. My name is in every Finnish translation of Help po.files. I have send package of translations which is now in Pootle. I have signed and send my ICLA-agreement etc. Yet I am not able translate single line except do suggestions as nobody. I am sure we find a solution for this... If I would download whole updated package I will translate and send it back. Otherwise it is quite hard to keep 100% level of translations. there seems to be a general problem with accepting/declining suggestions. It doesn't work in my local copy as well and I haven't found the root cause for this so far. At the moment I am working on updating the help project. Any hint is welcome and appreciated Would it help if I provide you a zip file containing the po files that you can use an offline tool? Juergen
Re: [RELEASE]: status update where we are and plan to move forward
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 2:49 AM, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@googlemail.comwrote: Hi Andrea, On 3/28/12 12:43 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: Jürgen Schmidt wrote: A RC with en-US only is not really what our community is expecting. Exactly. UI We will include all languages where we have a 100% complete translation for the UI (excepting the translation for the test automation tool like for ru) HELP For help I would not really rely on a 100% translation and would accept 95%. These figures seem very high, we usually required 80% (both UI and Help), see http://wiki.services.**openoffice.org/wiki/Languageshttp://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages thanks for this feedback, I wasn't aware of this numbers and it seems that my own expectations are higher than what we had before. I am open for that and we can reduce the numbers but doesn't it make sense to have 100% for UI and a lower number like the 80-85% for help. Help is not so important from my point view (who never used help and preferred google) but I think the UI should be complete. I am eager to learn from others and their experience and we should define together some boundaries for the future. Some things to consider: - What does the brand OpenOffice represent? What does it mean to the user? If we think it mean (among other things) quality and good localization support, then there are limits to what we can release and not harm the brand identity. For example, we cannot release a French translation that is only 10% done. It is all about meeting user expectations. Current OOo users have expectations. And people who have never used OpenOffice also have expectations. - Instead of holding back partial translations, one approach would be to label them in a special way, so we are setting accurate user expectations. For example, complete translations might be called gold, 90% translations silver and 80% bronze. Less than 80% might be beta releases only. Or some other similar naming schema. This guides the user what to expect, but also may attract help for the translations on where their help is most needed. -Rob And, now that https://issues.apache.org/ooo/**show_bug.cgi?id=118895https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=118895is fixed (thanks!) the Italian version, even if at 95%-99%, would definitely be ready to ship. We will reach 100% anyway (Paolo knows more but there are more than a dozen vounteers so it won't be a problem for us), but I'm speaking in general: excluding a language at 95%-99% wouldn't make sense. If there are concerns about problems in the translation process/data, then I'd prefer to distribute only builds for which we can identify a volunteer who takes care of testing that the translation is OK in the common use cases. Exactly that is what I have in mind we will only ship languages where volunteers have shown up so far. Juergen
Re: [RELEASE]: status update where we are and plan to move forward
Jürgen Schmidt [jogischm...@googlemail.com] kirjoitti: On 3/28/12 10:11 AM, Risto Jääskeläinen wrote: Jürgen Schmidt [jogischm...@googlemail.com] kirjoitti: Hi Andrea, .. Would it help if I provide you a zip file containing the po files that you can use an offline tool? Juergen Yes it seems after all that .zip file of .po files is for me (better than SDF files) but take Your time. If there is some general process which will create zip-files for all languages in near future OR Pootle is usable soon we save valuable time NOT creating just now .zip file for Finnish only (and then sending translations to the issue tracker etc). Regards Risto
Re: [RELEASE]: status update where we are and plan to move forward
Am 03/28/2012 08:49 AM, schrieb Jürgen Schmidt: Hi Andrea, On 3/28/12 12:43 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: Jürgen Schmidt wrote: A RC with en-US only is not really what our community is expecting. Exactly. UI We will include all languages where we have a 100% complete translation for the UI (excepting the translation for the test automation tool like for ru) HELP For help I would not really rely on a 100% translation and would accept 95%. These figures seem very high, we usually required 80% (both UI and Help), see http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages thanks for this feedback, I wasn't aware of this numbers and it seems that my own expectations are higher than what we had before. I am open for that and we can reduce the numbers but doesn't it make sense to have 100% for UI and a lower number like the 80-85% for help. Help is not so important from my point view (who never used help and preferred google) but I think the UI should be complete. I am eager to learn from others and their experience and we should define together some boundaries for the future. Let me allow to take a look into the past. ;-) OOo 3.3 Full install sets: This was done with 100 % for UI and Help with 100 - 0 % (e.g., we had never a translated Help in Arabic, however we have made a release for this language). There were also some exceptions with lower translation ratio because: the NL community was very eager with their L10N work and wanted to have a release somehow, the NL community had very good ratio in the past and exceptionally not this time, etc.). Langpacks: This was very less restrictive. Langpacks were done even with 0 % Help. The main focus was for the UI with a limit at ~80 %. General: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements Finally, I recommend to *orientate* on these requirements: 100 - ~95 % UI and Help ratio for full install builds. 100 - ~80 % UI ratio for langpack builds. This is what our users know from past releases (at least from the Wiki or other posts) and would expect for the next release. Of course we can change the requirements. But only after more detailed discussions and a published outcome (e.g., in the Wiki, blog post). OOo 3.4 Beta Full install sets: Builds were done only for en-US. Langpacks: The ratios for the Beta release was a bit worse as IMHO the localization phase was not finished before the big stop. So, Sun/Oracle has shown a bit more flexibility and has released them anyhow. And, now that https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=118895 is fixed (thanks!) the Italian version, even if at 95%-99%, would definitely be ready to ship. We will reach 100% anyway (Paolo knows more but there are more than a dozen vounteers so it won't be a problem for us), but I'm speaking in general: excluding a language at 95%-99% wouldn't make sense. +1 If there are concerns about problems in the translation process/data, then I'd prefer to distribute only builds for which we can identify a volunteer who takes care of testing that the translation is OK in the common use cases. Exactly that is what I have in mind we will only ship languages where volunteers have shown up so far. Juergen +1 Marcus
Re: [RELEASE]: status update where we are and plan to move forward
Am 03/27/2012 10:46 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On 03/27/2012 11:39 AM, � wrote: Hi, I would like to inform you where we are from my perspective and how I think we can/should move forward. 2 show stopper issues are open now which should be fixed later this week. We make good progress to clean up the RAT output (http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/rat-output.html), we are supporting Andrew where we can. Work on our NOTICE and LICENSE file is also ongoing and we make good progress to integrate early feedback before our first RC. Translation I am still not happy with the current situation around translations. I know that it is not the problem of our translation volunteers (I am happy to see the progress and interest) and that you all do your best. I think it was a mistake to underestimate the Pootle issue and the relating work... But we can't change it at the moment. A RC with en-US only is not really what our community is expecting. I would like to propose the following. UI We will include all languages where we have a 100% complete translation for the UI (excepting the translation for the test automation tool like for ru) All other languages will we release a little bit later when more translations are ready HELP For help I would not really rely on a 100% translation and would accept 95%. And here the same we will release further languages based on availability. That means we will start with a subset of languages first and will release more languages with a 3.4.1 that we can address quite fast. I still believe that a fast release is important for the public reputation of our project and I don't see a problem with releasing more languages later. I would like to start building a RC candidate next week with the languages that we have in place on Monday next week (April 2th). Any opinions? Juergen Juergen-- I support your analysis and this plan. Some questions: * What is the proposed timeframe for the RC(s)? I know logistically there was a some discussion about SourceForge's role in the download. The timeline that was discussed led me to believe we were at least a week or so out -- something about mid-April was mentioned. Do think this is still accurate? * Right now the Release Candidate area of the web site's download page... http://www.openoffice.org/download/all_rc.html is directed *back* to the main download page. Yes, I've changed it this way in order to concentrate the user's attention currently for OOo 3.3 only. And not for still remaining OOo 3.3 RC's or OOo 3.4 Beta. Those of us doing web maintenance for the download areas will need some assistance is determining the needed information (platforms, languages, etc.) that are detailed in http://www.openoffice.org/download/globalvars.js I can help with this. so we can reconstruct the all_rc.html Of course I still have the previous webpage. So, it can be re-used for newer releases. ;-) If you already have this info, please feel free to update this page, or send info so someone else can do it. A finally defined set of supported platforms and languages would help, indeed. Marcus
[RELEASE]: status update where we are and plan to move forward
Hi, I would like to inform you where we are from my perspective and how I think we can/should move forward. 2 show stopper issues are open now which should be fixed later this week. We make good progress to clean up the RAT output (http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/rat-output.html), we are supporting Andrew where we can. Work on our NOTICE and LICENSE file is also ongoing and we make good progress to integrate early feedback before our first RC. Translation I am still not happy with the current situation around translations. I know that it is not the problem of our translation volunteers (I am happy to see the progress and interest) and that you all do your best. I think it was a mistake to underestimate the Pootle issue and the relating work... But we can't change it at the moment. A RC with en-US only is not really what our community is expecting. I would like to propose the following. UI We will include all languages where we have a 100% complete translation for the UI (excepting the translation for the test automation tool like for ru) All other languages will we release a little bit later when more translations are ready HELP For help I would not really rely on a 100% translation and would accept 95%. And here the same we will release further languages based on availability. That means we will start with a subset of languages first and will release more languages with a 3.4.1 that we can address quite fast. I still believe that a fast release is important for the public reputation of our project and I don't see a problem with releasing more languages later. I would like to start building a RC candidate next week with the languages that we have in place on Monday next week (April 2th). Any opinions? Juergen
Re: [RELEASE]: status update where we are and plan to move forward
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@googlemail.comwrote: Hi, I would like to inform you where we are from my perspective and how I think we can/should move forward. 2 show stopper issues are open now which should be fixed later this week. We make good progress to clean up the RAT output (http://ci.apache.org/** projects/openoffice/rat-**output.htmlhttp://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/rat-output.html), we are supporting Andrew where we can. Work on our NOTICE and LICENSE file is also ongoing and we make good progress to integrate early feedback before our first RC. Translation I am still not happy with the current situation around translations. I know that it is not the problem of our translation volunteers (I am happy to see the progress and interest) and that you all do your best. I think it was a mistake to underestimate the Pootle issue and the relating work... But we can't change it at the moment. A RC with en-US only is not really what our community is expecting. I would like to propose the following. UI We will include all languages where we have a 100% complete translation for the UI (excepting the translation for the test automation tool like for ru) All other languages will we release a little bit later when more translations are ready HELP For help I would not really rely on a 100% translation and would accept 95%. And here the same we will release further languages based on availability. That means we will start with a subset of languages first and will release more languages with a 3.4.1 that we can address quite fast. I still believe that a fast release is important for the public reputation of our project and I don't see a problem with releasing more languages later. I would like to start building a RC candidate next week with the languages that we have in place on Monday next week (April 2th). +1 IMHO, whatever date we pick, there will always be a translation that is almost ready. This will be true next week. It will be true next month. But if everything else is ready for a release, then I think we should have a release. Otherwise we hold up the work that is ready. But at the same time, I think we need a way to have new languages released when they are ready. We cannot wait 6 months or something like that. We should think about some model where a new translation can be tested and approved for release quickly, say within 2 weeks of the translation being completed. It is less painful to miss the train if you know that another train will be leaving soon. -Rob Any opinions? Juergen
Re: [RELEASE]: status update where we are and plan to move forward
On 03/27/2012 11:39 AM, � wrote: Hi, I would like to inform you where we are from my perspective and how I think we can/should move forward. 2 show stopper issues are open now which should be fixed later this week. We make good progress to clean up the RAT output (http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/rat-output.html), we are supporting Andrew where we can. Work on our NOTICE and LICENSE file is also ongoing and we make good progress to integrate early feedback before our first RC. Translation I am still not happy with the current situation around translations. I know that it is not the problem of our translation volunteers (I am happy to see the progress and interest) and that you all do your best. I think it was a mistake to underestimate the Pootle issue and the relating work... But we can't change it at the moment. A RC with en-US only is not really what our community is expecting. I would like to propose the following. UI We will include all languages where we have a 100% complete translation for the UI (excepting the translation for the test automation tool like for ru) All other languages will we release a little bit later when more translations are ready HELP For help I would not really rely on a 100% translation and would accept 95%. And here the same we will release further languages based on availability. That means we will start with a subset of languages first and will release more languages with a 3.4.1 that we can address quite fast. I still believe that a fast release is important for the public reputation of our project and I don't see a problem with releasing more languages later. I would like to start building a RC candidate next week with the languages that we have in place on Monday next week (April 2th). Any opinions? Juergen Juergen-- I support your analysis and this plan. Some questions: * What is the proposed timeframe for the RC(s)? I know logistically there was a some discussion about SourceForge's role in the download. The timeline that was discussed led me to believe we were at least a week or so out -- something about mid-April was mentioned. Do think this is still accurate? * Right now the Release Candidate area of the web site's download page... http://www.openoffice.org/download/all_rc.html is directed *back* to the main download page. Those of us doing web maintenance for the download areas will need some assistance is determining the needed information (platforms, languages, etc.) that are detailed in http://www.openoffice.org/download/globalvars.js so we can reconstruct the all_rc.html If you already have this info, please feel free to update this page, or send info so someone else can do it. Thanks... -- MzK Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -- Robert Heinlein
Re: [RELEASE]: status update where we are and plan to move forward
Jürgen Schmidt wrote: A RC with en-US only is not really what our community is expecting. Exactly. UI We will include all languages where we have a 100% complete translation for the UI (excepting the translation for the test automation tool like for ru) HELP For help I would not really rely on a 100% translation and would accept 95%. These figures seem very high, we usually required 80% (both UI and Help), see http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Languages And, now that https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=118895 is fixed (thanks!) the Italian version, even if at 95%-99%, would definitely be ready to ship. We will reach 100% anyway (Paolo knows more but there are more than a dozen vounteers so it won't be a problem for us), but I'm speaking in general: excluding a language at 95%-99% wouldn't make sense. If there are concerns about problems in the translation process/data, then I'd prefer to distribute only builds for which we can identify a volunteer who takes care of testing that the translation is OK in the common use cases. Regards, Andrea.
