Re: [Calc][Discuss]Interoperability with Excel for SUMIF, COUNTIF, COUNTBLANK, DCOUNT, DSUM, ... with empty cells and and = empty string criteria.
@Dennis, I agree that conforming to ODFF is first goal. I add comments and attachment in https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=65221 From my understanding of ODFF, I give ODFF expect result for some formula related with empty cell in the attachment(xls). If there is any mistake, please comments. Open this file in AOO3.4/LO3.5, 16 cases fail. There are: Criterion in COUNTIF/SUMIF ODFF AOO3.4/LO3.5 criterion as = empty cellempty string cell criterion as not empty cellnot empty cell and not empty string cell criterion as 0any cell exceptany cell except 0, not including empty cell value 0, including empty cell Criterion in criteria for database formula, such as DSUM, DCOUNT ODFFAOO3.4/LO3.5 criterion is emptyvalue 0all cells cell criterion is emptyempty stringall cells string criterion as = empty cellempty cell and empty string cell criterion as not empty cellnot empty cell and not empty string cell Also AOO3.4/LO3.5 has self-consistent problem. The different result for same criterion between COUNTIF/SUMIF and database formulu(DCOUNT/DSUM). These criterion includes: criterion is empty cell, criterion is empty string, criterion is =, criterion is 0 While, open this file in Excel 2003, 8 cases fail. There are: Criterion in COUNTIF/SUMIF ODFF Excel 2003 criterion is empty string cellempty string cell and empty cell criterion is emptyempty string cellempty string cell and empty cell string Criterion in criteria for database formula, such as DSUM, DCOUNT ODFFAOO3.4/LO3.5 criterion is emptyvalue 0all cells cell Also Excel 2003 has self-consistent problem. The different result for same criterion between COUNTIF/SUMIF and database formulu(DCOUNT/DSUM). These criterion includes: criterion is empty cell, criterion is empty string It seems Excel has better conformance for these test cases. Conform to ODFF is very important. Compatible with Excel is also very important, especially for some common used Excel scenario, such as COUNTIF(refrange, ) to count all cells displayed as empty. Do we have any chance to modify ODFF to solve this Excel user problem? On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 1:14 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.orgwrote: @Andrew, See latest comments on https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=65221 I agree with orw that the first goal should be to align with OpenFormula, and that is specific about the use of Criteria in SUMIF, COUNTIF, etc., as you saw in section 4.11.8. In the case that there needs to be further clarification in OpenFormula, comments can be submitted to the ODF TC for Errata and/or improvements in the next edition, ODF 1.3. OpenFormula was developed with cross-format interoperability in mind and Microsoft participation was helpful for that. User Guide documentation on these cases is probably also important. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Andrew Pitonyak [mailto:and...@pitonyak.org] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 07:39 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [Calc][Discuss]Interoperability with Excel for SUMIF, COUNTIF, COUNTBLANK, DCOUNT, DSUM, ... with empty cells and and = empty string criteria. On 02.07.2012 04:50, Lei Wang wrote: Hi all, There is an old bug i65221( https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=65221). It is about interoperability with Excel for SUMIF, COUNTIF, COUNTBLANK, DCOUNT, DSUM, ... with empty cells and and = empty string criteria. [ ... ] I am surprised that the ODF standard does not dictate how this should be handled. I was under the impression that function behaviour in an ODF document was well defined. I believe that Robert Weir is far more aware of ODF type issues than I (since I have seen him mentioned by name on similar topics) - not that I intend to unfairly pull him into this discussion. In Version 1.2 of the part-2 for OpenFormula, I don't see it obviously spelled out, but I don't really have time to extensively pursue it. [ ... ] 4.7 Empty Cell An empty cell is neither zero nor the empty string, and an empty cell can be distinguished from cells containing values (including zero and the empty string). An empty cell is not the same as an Error, in particular, it is distinguishable from the Error #N/A (not available). Moving on to section 4.8 The definitions of specific operations and functions that allow references as operands and parameters stipulate any particular limitations there are on forms of references and how empty cells, when permitted, are interpreted. Now, on to 4.11.8, pretty clear here: 4.11.8 Criterion A criterion is a single cell Reference, Number or
Re: [Calc][Discuss]Interoperability with Excel for SUMIF, COUNTIF, COUNTBLANK, DCOUNT, DSUM, ... with empty cells and and = empty string criteria.
Hi, [resend to ooo-dev] On 02.07.2012 10:50, Lei Wang wrote: Hi all, There is an old bug i65221( https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=65221). It is about interoperability with Excel for SUMIF, COUNTIF, COUNTBLANK, DCOUNT, DSUM, ... with empty cells and and = empty string criteria. There is some discussion about it, but no conclusion. Some people think Excel does not do well, so simply mimicking Excel behavior might not be the best idea. Some people think self-consistency in Calc is more important. Some people think compatibility with Excel is a huge concern. IMHO, compatible with Excel is very important. I suggest changing these formulas behavior according to Excel. Following is my consideration 1)Most people use Excel, compatible with Excel is very important. Excel does not show self-consistency in some scenarios, Calc doe not show self-consistency either. 2)Some frequently used function, such as calculating empty cells, can not be implemented by Calc, while Excel can. 3)Although Excel does not show self-consistency in some scenarios. These scenarios are all related with pure empty cell. Excel use following rules When empty cell is criteria, only cells with value 0 meet it. This is true for COUNTIF, SUMIF. But not true for DSUM/DCOUNT/IF. When an empty cell in a cell range, it can meet empty string criteria. This is true for COUNTIF, SUMIF. But not true for DSUM/DCOUNT. first, I am not familar with spreadsheet formulas. I agree that interoperability with Microsoft Excel is important. But also important and from my point of view even more important is the conformance to ODF 1.2. I do not know, if the needed changes would cause an unconformance with ODF 1.2. If yes, things will be complicated. just my thoughts from an ODF perspective. Best regards, Oliver.
Re: [Calc][Discuss]Interoperability with Excel for SUMIF, COUNTIF, COUNTBLANK, DCOUNT, DSUM, ... with empty cells and and = empty string criteria.
On 02.07.2012 04:50, Lei Wang wrote: Hi all, There is an old bug i65221( https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=65221). It is about interoperability with Excel for SUMIF, COUNTIF, COUNTBLANK, DCOUNT, DSUM, ... with empty cells and and = empty string criteria. There is some discussion about it, but no conclusion. Some people think Excel does not do well, so simply mimicking Excel behavior might not be the best idea. Some people think self-consistency in Calc is more important. Some people think compatibility with Excel is a huge concern. IMHO, compatible with Excel is very important. I suggest changing these formulas behavior according to Excel. Following is my consideration 1)Most people use Excel, compatible with Excel is very important. Excel does not show self-consistency in some scenarios, Calc doe not show self-consistency either. 2)Some frequently used function, such as calculating empty cells, can not be implemented by Calc, while Excel can. 3)Although Excel does not show self-consistency in some scenarios. These scenarios are all related with pure empty cell. Excel use following rules When empty cell is criteria, only cells with value 0 meet it. This is true for COUNTIF, SUMIF. But not true for DSUM/DCOUNT/IF. When an empty cell in a cell range, it can meet empty string criteria. This is true for COUNTIF, SUMIF. But not true for DSUM/DCOUNT. I believe that you should expand your area of concern. For example, I recently found a spreadsheet created and used in another spreadsheet program, don't know off hand if it was a Microsoft variant or a WordPerfect variant. The document was opened into Calc using OOo for a few years. When the document was tried on LibreOffice, it failed. Why? Because a few of the empty cells contained a single space and LO threw an error rather than dealing with it the way that the other programs had dealt with it. In this case, the only thing that I can say authoritatively is that LO and AOO treated the file differently. I did not pursue why LO made the change. My only point is that if you desire to argue that the functions in AOO should be changed to match those in Excel, you should also verify the behaviour of general numerical methods and how they treat cells with a blank. Off hand, I think that documenting the differences would be very valuable even if changes are not made to AOO. Perhaps even more important than compatibility with Excel is that the software that supports ODF natively are consistent. I am surprised that the ODF standard does not dictate how this should be handled. I was under the impression that function behaviour in an ODF document was well defined. I believe that Robert Weir is far more aware of ODF type issues than I (since I have seen him mentioned by name on similar topics) - not that I intend to unfairly pull him into this discussion. In Version 1.2 of the part-2 for OpenFormula, I don't see it obviously spelled out, but I don't really have time to extensively pursue it. The closest I see of say SUMIF is this: The values returned may vary depending upon the HOST-USE-REGULAR-EXPRESSIONS or HOST-USE-WILDCARDS or HOST-SEARCH-CRITERIA-MUST-APPLY-TO-WHOLE-CELL properties. 3.4 I did check the host defined behaviors section and that is primarily related to things such as locale and case sensitivity. Well, it does say this: 4.7 Empty Cell An empty cell is neither zero nor the empty string, and an empty cell can be distinguished from cells containing values (including zero and the empty string). An empty cell is not the same as an Error, in particular, it is distinguishable from the Error #N/A (not available). Moving on to section 4.8 The definitions of specific operations and functions that allow references as operands and parameters stipulate any particular limitations there are on forms of references and how empty cells, when permitted, are interpreted. Now, on to 4.11.8, pretty clear here: 4.11.8 Criterion A criterion is a single cell Reference, Number or Text. It is used in comparisons with cell contents. A reference to an empty cell is interpreted as the numeric value 0. A matching expression can be: A Number or Logical value. A matching cell content equals the Number or Logical value. A value beginning with a comparator (, =, =, , =, ). 6.4.9 For =, if the value is empty it matches empty cells. 4.7 For , if the value is empty it matches non-empty cells. For , if the value is not empty it matches any cell content except the value, including empty cells. Note: =0 does not match empty cells. For = and , if the value is not empty and can not be interpreted as a Number type or one of its subtypes and the host-defined property HOST-SEARCH-CRITERIA-MUST-APPLY-TO-WHOLE-CELL is true, comparison is against the entire cell contents, if false, comparison is against any subpart of the field that matches the criteria. For = and , if the value is not empty
RE: [Calc][Discuss]Interoperability with Excel for SUMIF, COUNTIF, COUNTBLANK, DCOUNT, DSUM, ... with empty cells and and = empty string criteria.
@Andrew, See latest comments on https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=65221 I agree with orw that the first goal should be to align with OpenFormula, and that is specific about the use of Criteria in SUMIF, COUNTIF, etc., as you saw in section 4.11.8. In the case that there needs to be further clarification in OpenFormula, comments can be submitted to the ODF TC for Errata and/or improvements in the next edition, ODF 1.3. OpenFormula was developed with cross-format interoperability in mind and Microsoft participation was helpful for that. User Guide documentation on these cases is probably also important. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Andrew Pitonyak [mailto:and...@pitonyak.org] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 07:39 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [Calc][Discuss]Interoperability with Excel for SUMIF, COUNTIF, COUNTBLANK, DCOUNT, DSUM, ... with empty cells and and = empty string criteria. On 02.07.2012 04:50, Lei Wang wrote: Hi all, There is an old bug i65221( https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=65221). It is about interoperability with Excel for SUMIF, COUNTIF, COUNTBLANK, DCOUNT, DSUM, ... with empty cells and and = empty string criteria. [ ... ] I am surprised that the ODF standard does not dictate how this should be handled. I was under the impression that function behaviour in an ODF document was well defined. I believe that Robert Weir is far more aware of ODF type issues than I (since I have seen him mentioned by name on similar topics) - not that I intend to unfairly pull him into this discussion. In Version 1.2 of the part-2 for OpenFormula, I don't see it obviously spelled out, but I don't really have time to extensively pursue it. [ ... ] 4.7 Empty Cell An empty cell is neither zero nor the empty string, and an empty cell can be distinguished from cells containing values (including zero and the empty string). An empty cell is not the same as an Error, in particular, it is distinguishable from the Error #N/A (not available). Moving on to section 4.8 The definitions of specific operations and functions that allow references as operands and parameters stipulate any particular limitations there are on forms of references and how empty cells, when permitted, are interpreted. Now, on to 4.11.8, pretty clear here: 4.11.8 Criterion A criterion is a single cell Reference, Number or Text. It is used in comparisons with cell contents. A reference to an empty cell is interpreted as the numeric value 0. A matching expression can be: A Number or Logical value. A matching cell content equals the Number or Logical value. A value beginning with a comparator (, =, =, , =, ). 6.4.9 For =, if the value is empty it matches empty cells. 4.7 For , if the value is empty it matches non-empty cells. For , if the value is not empty it matches any cell content except the value, including empty cells. Note: =0 does not match empty cells. For = and , if the value is not empty and can not be interpreted as a Number type or one of its subtypes and the host-defined property HOST-SEARCH-CRITERIA-MUST-APPLY-TO-WHOLE-CELL is true, comparison is against the entire cell contents, if false, comparison is against any subpart of the field that matches the criteria. For = and , if the value is not empty and can not be interpreted as a Number type or one of its subtypes 3.4 applies. Other Text value. If the host-defined property HOST-SEARCH-CRITERIA-MUST-APPLY-TO-WHOLE-CELL is true, the comparison is against the entire cell contents, if false, comparison is against any subpart of the field that matches the criteria. [ ... ]
