Re: [securityteam] Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security list (was Re: OpenOffice Security Vulnerability Reporting)
+1 for having ooo-secur...@incubator.apache.org, because - old OOo mailing lists will probably die some day - other people are now participating in Apache OOo, who don't work on OOo/LO - (Old) OOo doesn't release security updates anymore, I guess. I am still on vacation until 06/25. That the reason for answering so late, and please moderate this for ooo-dev@i.a.o, as my Oracle address in not subscribed or in my alias list. For initial members of the new list, we should use the people subscribed to the closed OOo and LO security lists - where is a very big overlap anyway. And we should probably add Rob and Andrew. Malte. Dennis E. Hamilton wrote, On 08.07.2011 01:35: So perhaps the prudent thing to do is create the list and find out we don't need it, rather than not have it and have occasion to regret it. +1 -Original Message- From: Mark Thomas [mailto:ma...@apache.org] Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 07:00 To: Rob Weir Cc: securityt...@openoffice.org; ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; secur...@apache.org Subject: Re: OpenOffice Security Vulnerability Reporting [ ... ] Access to ooo-priv...@incubator.apache.org is too open for security issues. ooo-secur...@incubator.apache.org needs to be set up with access limited to a small, trusted set of individuals. The current subscribers to securityt...@openoffice.org would be a good place to start. Mark
Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List
On 07.07.2011 02:21, Greg Stein wrote: I don't believe that we need our own security address since I doubt we'll have that many *incoming* issues. Those reports can go to secur...@apache.org, and that team will forward them to the PPMC. Many is a quantity that is hard to compare with ;-). From past experience it seems that the number of incoming issues increased in the last years. Not because our code became worse, but because more people looked for security holes systematically. Besides that, I tend to agree that we shouldn't start with an own security list before we are sure that the Apache list can't handle the number of incoming issues. Regards, Mathias
Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton orc...@apache.org wrote: [I am reminded that the best way to talk to the PPMC is on ooo-dev and there is benefit in so doing. Here goes.] PROPOSAL ooo-security@incubator.a.o be set up as a private list and a selection of not more than 10 security-aware PPMC members be subscribed to it. We need to work out what the composition would be. The list will be automatically forward to security@a.o. I assume that there might be security-aware ooo-podling mentors and other ASF Members included in the small PPMC subscription. DETAILS General information about the Apache Security Team: http://www.apache.org/security/ More details on the handling of security and vulnerabilities by committers and the role of the [P]PMC: http://www.apache.org/security/committers.html Note that creation of a security page on our web site is also part of this. That should happen near-immediately also. The website already has a Security link on the navigation panel, at the bottom. This takes you to the main Apache security page where the reporter is instructed on how to submit reports. According to that page, security reports are routed to the PMC in case we do not have a dedicated security list. So I don't see the urgency on creating a new list or a new web page, especially since we don't even have code in the repository, let alone a release, and since there already is a security list and contact address at OOo. I think that the existing procedures, in place at Apache, are adequate if someone wanted to report a problem The idea of having the discussion in private, on the PMC private list or on a private security list, is a good idea, so that any vulnerability reported would not be immediately exploited by script kiddies. Or at least the chances of that would be diminished. But I don't think that any of the PPMC members are malicious hackers likely to abuse any security sensitive information shared on the PPMC list. Of course, only a subset of the members have security expertise. BACKGROUND I have been nosing around in document-related security areas and that has led me to inquire what the arrangements need to be for discussing security issues, identified vulnerabilities, proposed mitigations, etc. I've learned that the Apache approach is for each PMC taking the lead in handling security matters related to its releases. To maintain the security of security matters, the practice is to have a private list (for us, ooo-security) with not more than ten security-aware subscribers. Since we may have common-mode issues with respect to the use of our common code base and implementation behaviors, it may be necessary to coordinate with other teams, including the LibreOffice security team, in our case. We'll have to work that out on an individual-case basis, I suspect. I don't know if we have any PPMC members who are also on that team, and I don't know what the structure was for OpenOffice.org and who may have been involved. I'd object to us officially sharing advance security-related information with some downstream consumers of OOo while not doing the same with others. - Dennis
Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List
Hi Dennis, I appreciate your concerns. Have you raised them at secur...@apache.org yet? If the secur...@apache.org list suggests that the AOOo PPMC request a security mailing list now then we should go ahead. We would need the right volunteers to handle any concerns. Perhaps it will turn out that there are some of individuals involved in all of AOOo, LibreOffice and Security that can informally handle the multiple hats. That might avoid a formal arrangement. But maybe a formal agreement would be good. I think that if we do have a security list that they will need to give nonspecific information so that the community can sense that issues are being solved. We may very well need to eventually have a security patch schedule that is not too frantic. (Firefox 5 or bust, corporations can just have their IE) Regards, Dave On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: Well, vulnerabilities are vulnerabilities and if there is an exposure in current code or in documents produced in current code, isn't that a concern for us now? Why would it not be? Also, I don't presume that everyone is downstream from us (as opposed to the OpenOffice.org that once was). I think of LibreOffice as a mutual stakeholder because it seems they have a security team too and like it or not, they are cranking out releases very quickly and may be able to provide mitigations, hypothetically, months before we ever get a release of ours out the door. Also, some security issues may require a jointly-agreed response so that we attend to interoperability concerns, especially if mitigation involves breaking changes or even introduction of allowed extensions (in the context of the ODF specifications). Anything that fits into a discretionary area requiring producer-consumer agreement to work needs a community to unfold it. I don't know about the details of having that work. I do know if I uncover a problem, I am going to communicate it to every security-conscious entity I can. To make this conversation concrete: I have security issues I want to raise, which is what had me looking into this in the first place. I would like to do this in a manner that is in keeping with concerns for dealing with security matters privately to ensure that there is competent review and no danger attached to premature disclosure. (I suspect not, because the vulnerabilities I am aware of exist in plain sight, but I want the counsel of someone having more security experience than I before saying, Heck, I need something for today's blog post, why not stir things up with this?) - Dennis -Original Message- From: rabas...@gmail.com [mailto:rabas...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rob Weir Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 14:40 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton orc...@apache.org wrote: [I am reminded that the best way to talk to the PPMC is on ooo-dev and there is benefit in so doing. Here goes.] PROPOSAL ooo-security@incubator.a.o be set up as a private list and a selection of not more than 10 security-aware PPMC members be subscribed to it. We need to work out what the composition would be. The list will be automatically forward to security@a.o. I assume that there might be security-aware ooo-podling mentors and other ASF Members included in the small PPMC subscription. DETAILS General information about the Apache Security Team: http://www.apache.org/security/ More details on the handling of security and vulnerabilities by committers and the role of the [P]PMC: http://www.apache.org/security/committers.html Note that creation of a security page on our web site is also part of this. That should happen near-immediately also. The website already has a Security link on the navigation panel, at the bottom. This takes you to the main Apache security page where the reporter is instructed on how to submit reports. According to that page, security reports are routed to the PMC in case we do not have a dedicated security list. So I don't see the urgency on creating a new list or a new web page, especially since we don't even have code in the repository, let alone a release, and since there already is a security list and contact address at OOo. I think that the existing procedures, in place at Apache, are adequate if someone wanted to report a problem The idea of having the discussion in private, on the PMC private list or on a private security list, is a good idea, so that any vulnerability reported would not be immediately exploited by script kiddies. Or at least the chances of that would be diminished. But I don't think that any of the PPMC members are malicious hackers likely to abuse any security sensitive information shared on the PPMC list. Of course, only a subset of the members have security expertise
Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List
Dennis E. Hamilton wrote on Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 15:35:46 -0700: To make this conversation concrete: I have security issues I want to raise, which is what had me looking into this in the first place. Then please report them to security@a.o and/or ooo-private@.
Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List
Dennis E. Hamilton wrote on Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 12:02:31 -0700: I've learned that the Apache approach is for each PMC taking the lead in handling security matters related to its releases. To maintain the security of security matters, the practice is to have a private list (for us, ooo-security) with not more than ten security-aware subscribers. I've never heard of a magic number cap to the # of subscribers of a mailing list.
Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List
In some ways, the larger the security group, the quicker the solution rate. Security patched will need to be checked before they are committed, so the issue fixed doesn't break 3 other parts of the code. On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Daniel Shahaf d...@daniel.shahaf.namewrote: Dennis E. Hamilton wrote on Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 12:02:31 -0700: I've learned that the Apache approach is for each PMC taking the lead in handling security matters related to its releases. To maintain the security of security matters, the practice is to have a private list (for us, ooo-security) with not more than ten security-aware subscribers. I've never heard of a magic number cap to the # of subscribers of a mailing list. -- This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: Well, vulnerabilities are vulnerabilities and if there is an exposure in current code or in documents produced in current code, isn't that a concern for us now? Why would it not be? I'm not saying it is not a concern. I'm saying if you think it is a concern, then get on with it and report the concern. Also, I don't presume that everyone is downstream from us (as opposed to the OpenOffice.org that once was). I think of LibreOffice as a mutual stakeholder because it seems they have a security team too and like it or not, they are cranking out releases very quickly and may be able to provide mitigations, hypothetically, months before we ever get a release of ours out the door. And IBM and RedOffice and Oracle doesn't have products in use based on this same code? And they don't have people who work with security? I question your definition of mutual stakeholder, especially since our list of Committers has members from IBM, RedOffice and Oracle, but none from LibreOffice. And how often feature releases are cranked out is irrelevant to how quickly a vendor can release a security patch if needed. You are mixes two different kinds of releases. Also, some security issues may require a jointly-agreed response so that we attend to interoperability concerns, especially if mitigation involves breaking changes or even introduction of allowed extensions (in the context of the ODF specifications). Anything that fits into a discretionary area requiring producer-consumer agreement to work needs a community to unfold it. I don't know about the details of having that work. I do know if I uncover a problem, I am going to communicate it to every security-conscious entity I can. Hopefully this will include the Apache security list at some point. To make this conversation concrete: I have security issues I want to raise, which is what had me looking into this in the first place. I would like to do this in a manner that is in keeping with concerns for dealing with security matters privately to ensure that there is competent review and no danger attached to premature disclosure. (I suspect not, because the vulnerabilities I am aware of exist in plain sight, but I want the counsel of someone having more security experience than I before saying, Heck, I need something for today's blog post, why not stir things up with this?) The Apache process for handling this is documented and it explicitly covers the case of reports for a project that does not have a dedicated security list. - Dennis -Original Message- From: rabas...@gmail.com [mailto:rabas...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rob Weir Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 14:40 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton orc...@apache.org wrote: [I am reminded that the best way to talk to the PPMC is on ooo-dev and there is benefit in so doing. Here goes.] PROPOSAL ooo-security@incubator.a.o be set up as a private list and a selection of not more than 10 security-aware PPMC members be subscribed to it. We need to work out what the composition would be. The list will be automatically forward to security@a.o. I assume that there might be security-aware ooo-podling mentors and other ASF Members included in the small PPMC subscription. DETAILS General information about the Apache Security Team: http://www.apache.org/security/ More details on the handling of security and vulnerabilities by committers and the role of the [P]PMC: http://www.apache.org/security/committers.html Note that creation of a security page on our web site is also part of this. That should happen near-immediately also. The website already has a Security link on the navigation panel, at the bottom. This takes you to the main Apache security page where the reporter is instructed on how to submit reports. According to that page, security reports are routed to the PMC in case we do not have a dedicated security list. So I don't see the urgency on creating a new list or a new web page, especially since we don't even have code in the repository, let alone a release, and since there already is a security list and contact address at OOo. I think that the existing procedures, in place at Apache, are adequate if someone wanted to report a problem The idea of having the discussion in private, on the PMC private list or on a private security list, is a good idea, so that any vulnerability reported would not be immediately exploited by script kiddies. Or at least the chances of that would be diminished. But I don't think that any of the PPMC members are malicious hackers likely to abuse any security sensitive information shared on the PPMC list. Of course, only a subset of the members have security expertise. BACKGROUND
RE: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List
I didn't say there were no other mutual stakeholders. I mentioned one whose security list I knew about already. It does raise interesting questions for when concerted action is desirable though. I am not confusing security fixes with other fixes. However, slip-streaming some easy things is clearly an opportunity at LO at the moment. I can imagine some changes not even being announced as security fixes. I don't know about slip-streaming at IBM, RedOffice, Oracle, Microsoft, etc. - Dennis -Original Message- From: rabas...@gmail.com [mailto:rabas...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rob Weir Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 16:10 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamil...@acm.org Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: Well, vulnerabilities are vulnerabilities and if there is an exposure in current code or in documents produced in current code, isn't that a concern for us now? Why would it not be? I'm not saying it is not a concern. I'm saying if you think it is a concern, then get on with it and report the concern. Also, I don't presume that everyone is downstream from us (as opposed to the OpenOffice.org that once was). I think of LibreOffice as a mutual stakeholder because it seems they have a security team too and like it or not, they are cranking out releases very quickly and may be able to provide mitigations, hypothetically, months before we ever get a release of ours out the door. And IBM and RedOffice and Oracle doesn't have products in use based on this same code? And they don't have people who work with security? I question your definition of mutual stakeholder, especially since our list of Committers has members from IBM, RedOffice and Oracle, but none from LibreOffice. And how often feature releases are cranked out is irrelevant to how quickly a vendor can release a security patch if needed. You are mixes two different kinds of releases. Also, some security issues may require a jointly-agreed response so that we attend to interoperability concerns, especially if mitigation involves breaking changes or even introduction of allowed extensions (in the context of the ODF specifications). Anything that fits into a discretionary area requiring producer-consumer agreement to work needs a community to unfold it. I don't know about the details of having that work. I do know if I uncover a problem, I am going to communicate it to every security-conscious entity I can. Hopefully this will include the Apache security list at some point. To make this conversation concrete: I have security issues I want to raise, which is what had me looking into this in the first place. I would like to do this in a manner that is in keeping with concerns for dealing with security matters privately to ensure that there is competent review and no danger attached to premature disclosure. (I suspect not, because the vulnerabilities I am aware of exist in plain sight, but I want the counsel of someone having more security experience than I before saying, Heck, I need something for today's blog post, why not stir things up with this?) The Apache process for handling this is documented and it explicitly covers the case of reports for a project that does not have a dedicated security list. - Dennis -Original Message- From: rabas...@gmail.com [mailto:rabas...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rob Weir Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 14:40 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton orc...@apache.org wrote: [I am reminded that the best way to talk to the PPMC is on ooo-dev and there is benefit in so doing. Here goes.] PROPOSAL ooo-security@incubator.a.o be set up as a private list and a selection of not more than 10 security-aware PPMC members be subscribed to it. We need to work out what the composition would be. The list will be automatically forward to security@a.o. I assume that there might be security-aware ooo-podling mentors and other ASF Members included in the small PPMC subscription. DETAILS General information about the Apache Security Team: http://www.apache.org/security/ More details on the handling of security and vulnerabilities by committers and the role of the [P]PMC: http://www.apache.org/security/committers.html Note that creation of a security page on our web site is also part of this. That should happen near-immediately also. The website already has a Security link on the navigation panel, at the bottom. This takes you to the main Apache security page where the reporter is instructed on how to submit reports. According to that page, security reports are routed to the PMC in case we do not have a dedicated security list. So I don't see the urgency on creating a new list or a new web page
RE: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List
I'm assuming the goal is to keep the analysis and discussion of alleged vulnerabilities to a relatively small need-to-know group. I don't know that 10 is a hard number, I heard it as a suggestion when I asked around about how this works at Apache. Do you know typical sizes for security@project lists? - Dennis -Original Message- From: Daniel Shahaf [mailto:d...@daniel.shahaf.name] Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 15:54 To: OOo-dev Apache Incubator Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List Dennis E. Hamilton wrote on Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 12:02:31 -0700: I've learned that the Apache approach is for each PMC taking the lead in handling security matters related to its releases. To maintain the security of security matters, the practice is to have a private list (for us, ooo-security) with not more than ten security-aware subscribers. I've never heard of a magic number cap to the # of subscribers of a mailing list.
Re: [DISCUSS] Creation of ooo-security List
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 18:35, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: Well, vulnerabilities are vulnerabilities and if there is an exposure in current code or in documents produced in current code, isn't that a concern for us now? Why would it not be? Also, I don't presume that everyone is downstream from us (as opposed to the OpenOffice.org that once was). I think of LibreOffice as a mutual stakeholder because it seems they have a security team too and like it or not, they are cranking out releases very quickly and may be able to provide mitigations, hypothetically, months before we ever get a release of ours out the door. We can get guidance from the Apache Security Team on this. I suspect they would concur: work with the development/security teams of people development forks of OOo. Downstream users would presumably get a standard pre-notification email. ... I don't know about the details of having that work. I do know if I uncover a problem, I am going to communicate it to every security-conscious entity I can. The best answer is to ask Security for advice here. There is an industry-standard approach to this kind of notification. To make this conversation concrete: I have security issues I want to raise, which is what had me looking into this in the first place. I would like to do this in a manner that is in keeping with concerns for dealing with security matters privately to ensure that there is competent review and no danger attached to premature disclosure. (I suspect not, because the vulnerabilities I am aware of exist in plain sight, but I want the counsel of someone having more security experience than I before saying, Heck, I need something for today's blog post, why not stir things up with this?) Start with secur...@apache.org, and go from there. Cheers, -g
