Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-11 Thread Richard L. Hamilton 
The duty to maximize profits for investors is clear.  The duty to keep what 
sounded rather like a promise, but perhaps was never actually _made_ to anyone 
but only appeared in an internal memo, well, I'm sure we'd all want to say that 
was just as _morally_ binding, but enforceable?  You do the math.

It might even be in long-term enlightened self-interest, but how often do 
quarterly reports win, and how oftenlong-term and less quantifiable 
considerations?

I think that DTrace makes source all the more desirable, that customers and 
those that provide paid support might better speak the same language, leading 
to more satisfied customers and perhaps even less cost to supporting them.  I 
think that expanded ecosystem probably offsets subsidizing the competition, 
esp. since such subsidies go both ways.  There are those now who have worked 
with Solaris for many years as administrators and customer system analysts that 
argue that Linux will eventually crush all competition, regardless of technical 
superiority of Solaris.  _Everything_ gets commoditized eventually; you can 
only choose whether to lead or whether to be left behind.  In that environment, 
openness may do more than technical superiority to ensure survival.  But _I_ 
think that one OS to rule them all is just as wrong, whether that OS is open or 
closed.  Choose open and survive, please.

What I wonder is who would be both receptive to such arguments (politely made), 
and influential to act on them.

On Nov 11, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Michael Kerpan wrote:

> Has the code for Solaris 11 been released as was once the plan? If so,
> I suppose that features can always get moved over into OI (and from
> there into FreeBSD, etc). If Solaris is now closed-source for good,
> then all bets are off, though.
> 
> Mike
> 
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-- 
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Naturally, I said "yes", and then burst out laughing, because there simply
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-11 Thread Michael Kerpan 
Has the code for Solaris 11 been released as was once the plan? If so,
I suppose that features can always get moved over into OI (and from
there into FreeBSD, etc). If Solaris is now closed-source for good,
then all bets are off, though.

Mike

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Alan Coopersmith 

On 11/10/11 16:42, James Carlson wrote:

On 11/10/11 17:07, Jerry Kemp wrote:

I have Solaris 11 Express still running on my SparcBlade 2000, because, to the
best of my knowledge, there are no OI iso images for Sparc.

The fact that Solaris 11 Express runs fine on these systems, and Solaris 11 GA
does not load tells me that support for these boxes were discontinued for some
reason other than technical reasons, i.e. politics, financial, etc.


I think it's pretty unfair to charge the good folks still lingering at
Oracle in that way.  I was involved with a number of technical reviews
of support plans at Sun, and I strongly doubt that it's ever as simple
as calling it just a "business decision."

Often, the reason install has been disabled is that support for some key
component has become impossible due to a third party license issue.  Or
the component itself cannot support some key new kernel feature.  Or
spare parts have run out and it's no longer possible to maintain the
necessary test infrastructure.


Right - one example was the dropping of 32-bit SPARC CPU support in Solaris 10.
Various features like DTrace that were being added in Solaris 10 could probably
have been made to work with them, but the added complexity, engineering effort
and delay in time to market were decided to not be worth the business value of
trying to make them work on hardware so old that there was little future support
revenue for it, and most enterprise customers with them would likely be doing
a hardware upgrade when it was time to move to Solaris 10 anyway.   Sure that
annoyed people who had a SPARC 20 that they'd saved from the scrap heap and
were running at home, but those people don't pay the developers salaries.

This case is a similar example - some future projects (about which I cannot
give details at this time, sorry) would be much more complex and take much
longer to implement if they also had to support the UltraSPARC II, III, & IV
series CPU's, so the joint technical/business decision was made not to do so,
given that customers with them have many years of Solaris 10 support life left
and when those customers are ready to move to Solaris 11, almost all of those
systems will be past the end of the hardware support life.

(BTW, just in case anyone has forgotten, despite what my e-mail address says,
 all mail messages to forums like this are my own opinion & knowledge, not an
 official Oracle statement, nor is it possible for any Oracle employee to know
 everything happening in this company, so don't go off the deep end if you
 think I'm wrong.)

--
-Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread James Carlson 
On 11/10/11 17:07, Jerry Kemp wrote:
> I have Solaris 11 Express still running on my SparcBlade 2000, because, to the
> best of my knowledge, there are no OI iso images for Sparc.
> 
> The fact that Solaris 11 Express runs fine on these systems, and Solaris 11 GA
> does not load tells me that support for these boxes were discontinued for some
> reason other than technical reasons, i.e. politics, financial, etc.

I think it's pretty unfair to charge the good folks still lingering at
Oracle in that way.  I was involved with a number of technical reviews
of support plans at Sun, and I strongly doubt that it's ever as simple
as calling it just a "business decision."

Often, the reason install has been disabled is that support for some key
component has become impossible due to a third party license issue.  Or
the component itself cannot support some key new kernel feature.  Or
spare parts have run out and it's no longer possible to maintain the
necessary test infrastructure.

For example, an all-too-common technical problem is the changing
landscape, such as the removal of Xsun and replacement with Xorg.
Xorg's certainly better for most people, and supports a lot more
hardware -- and is open source -- but there are old drivers that work
only with proprietary Xsun, and there is _nobody_ with the right
combination of money, talent, time, and motivation to do the rewrite.
So guess what?  Those systems end up in the dustbin.

Unless someone from Oracle speaks up and says that something nefarious
really happened, I suggest giving them the benefit of the doubt.  If
you're angry about it, and want to use brand new software on a 10 year
old computer, then contact Oracle and let them know what you think.  Or
just stop buying their products.  Whatever you feel is best.

But speculating here about their motives is probably pointless.

-- 
James Carlson 42.703N 71.076W 

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Jerry Kemp 
Hello Dave,

Thank you for the link.

I apparently parrot'ed 90% of the URL that you provided below (5) months
after the fact.

My follow on question, is that in the time that has passed since the
event in the URL that you presented, has anything changed regarding
support for Sparc?

Jerry


On 11/10/11 04:23 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11 Nov, 2011,at 11:07 AM, Jerry Kemp  wrote:
> 
>> Should OI continue to support UltraSparc II/III/IV systems if possible?
>>
>> I sure hope so.
> 
> 
> Don't know about OI, but Ilumos developers make their feelings known
> about this in the panel discussion conducted a little while back:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyDaeQvp6O4
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Dave Koelmeyer 



On 11 Nov, 2011,at 11:07 AM, Jerry Kemp  wrote:


Should OI continue to support UltraSparc II/III/IV systems if possible?

I sure hope so.



Don't know about OI, but Ilumos developers make their feelings known about this 
in the panel discussion conducted a little while back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyDaeQvp6O4

Cheers,
Dave
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Jerry Kemp 
Should OI continue to support UltraSparc II/III/IV systems if possible?

I sure hope so.

I have Solaris 11 Express still running on my SparcBlade 2000, because, to the
best of my knowledge, there are no OI iso images for Sparc.

The fact that Solaris 11 Express runs fine on these systems, and Solaris 11 GA
does not load tells me that support for these boxes were discontinued for some
reason other than technical reasons, i.e. politics, financial, etc.

Supporting recently discontinued Sparc systems seems to be a great way to pick
up additional OI converts.

Jerry


On 11/10/11 02:25 PM, Daniel Kjar wrote:
> Come to think of it... do you think OI will be able to continue supporting
> usparcIII if Oracle doesn't?  I don't really care since I really should retire
> that beast but others might like to know.
> 

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Jason J. W. Williams 
> Hardware support aside, the most important question should be about ZFS.
> If Oracle does not make the latest ZFS code available, will the ZFS we
> already have be able to match the "other" ZFS, if it comes to that?
>
> File system encryption in the latest ZFS is a killer feature, in my
> opinion.
> Is any person or group able to step up and implement features like that in
> illumos' ZFS if Oracle balks?


Seems to me with most of the open Solaris distros basing off Illumos, as
well as, the future of ZFS on FreeBSD (and I'd assume the ZFS on Linux
project)...it seems to me ZFS on S11 will cease to be the canonical
reference standard.

Seems like a Jenkins CI/Hudson CI situation to me.

-J
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Bill Sommerfeld 
On 11/10/11 12:33, LinuxBSDos.com wrote:
> File system encryption in the latest ZFS is a killer feature, in my opinion.

it's very slick functionality but I wouldn't trust it or use it for anything
that mattered unless either the source, or a spec detailed enough to allow for
an independent interoperable implementation, is released.


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Ron Dawson 
Can we run OI on UltraSPARC?  I thought it was still only x86?  I have a
number of old SunFire V250s, V240 and V440 that I'd be interested in
keeping going for a while longer yet.  I had missed the notice about the
official Solaris 11 not working on UltraSPARC III/IV.


On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Daniel Kjar  wrote:

> Come to think of it... do you think OI will be able to continue supporting
> usparcIII if Oracle doesn't?  I don't really care since I really should
> retire that beast but others might like to know.
>
>
> On 11/10/11 02:14 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>
>> On 11/10/11 11:09, Daniel Kjar wrote:
>>
>>> First thing I noticed when I tried to install it on my blade1000 was that
>>> support for ultrasparc III is now gone. Won't even let you install.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, that was announced a while ago on the EOF pages.   Support for
>> 32-bit x86 and UltraSPARC II/III/IV CPU's were dropped for Solaris 11.
>>
>>
> --
> Dr. Daniel Kjar
> Assistant Professor of Biology
> Division of Mathematics and Natural Sciences
> Elmira College
> 1 Park Place
> Elmira, NY 14901
> 607-735-1826
> http://faculty.elmira.edu/**dkjar 
>
> "...humans send their young men to war; ants send their old ladies"
>-E. O. Wilson
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread LinuxBSDos.com 

Hardware support aside, the most important question should be about ZFS.
If Oracle does not make the latest ZFS code available, will the ZFS we
already have be able to match the "other" ZFS, if it comes to that?

File system encryption in the latest ZFS is a killer feature, in my opinion.
Is any person or group able to step up and implement features like that in
illumos' ZFS if Oracle balks?

--
Fini D.


> Come to think of it... do you think OI will be able to continue
> supporting usparcIII if Oracle doesn't?  I don't really care since I
> really should retire that beast but others might like to know.
>
> On 11/10/11 02:14 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>> On 11/10/11 11:09, Daniel Kjar wrote:
>>> First thing I noticed when I tried to install it on my blade1000 was
>>> that
>>> support for ultrasparc III is now gone. Won't even let you install.
>>
>> Yes, that was announced a while ago on the EOF pages.   Support for
>> 32-bit x86 and UltraSPARC II/III/IV CPU's were dropped for Solaris 11.
>>
>



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Daniel Kjar 
Come to think of it... do you think OI will be able to continue 
supporting usparcIII if Oracle doesn't?  I don't really care since I 
really should retire that beast but others might like to know.


On 11/10/11 02:14 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote:

On 11/10/11 11:09, Daniel Kjar wrote:
First thing I noticed when I tried to install it on my blade1000 was 
that

support for ultrasparc III is now gone. Won't even let you install.


Yes, that was announced a while ago on the EOF pages.   Support for
32-bit x86 and UltraSPARC II/III/IV CPU's were dropped for Solaris 11.



--
Dr. Daniel Kjar
Assistant Professor of Biology
Division of Mathematics and Natural Sciences
Elmira College
1 Park Place
Elmira, NY 14901
607-735-1826
http://faculty.elmira.edu/dkjar

"...humans send their young men to war; ants send their old ladies"
-E. O. Wilson




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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Alan Coopersmith 

On 11/10/11 11:09, Daniel Kjar wrote:

First thing I noticed when I tried to install it on my blade1000 was that
support for ultrasparc III is now gone. Won't even let you install.


Yes, that was announced a while ago on the EOF pages.   Support for
32-bit x86 and UltraSPARC II/III/IV CPU's were dropped for Solaris 11.

--
-Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Daniel Kjar 
First thing I noticed when I tried to install it on my blade1000 was 
that support for ultrasparc III is now gone.  Won't even let you 
install.  All of my remaining systems are going to OI when my support 
contract runs out (and they are x86).


On 11/10/11 02:06 PM, Harry Putnam wrote:

Too much a noob to be able to figure this out for myself.

I see what appears to be a serious lot of new stuff in release notes
of oracle-solaris 11.

Can anyone compare that new OS with oi espeically considering the
usage being a home nas.  (So maybe not needing many of the sol 11
enhancements but still curious if sol 11 has outstripped oi overall)


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Assistant Professor of Biology
Division of Mathematics and Natural Sciences
Elmira College
1 Park Place
Elmira, NY 14901
607-735-1826
http://faculty.elmira.edu/dkjar

"...humans send their young men to war; ants send their old ladies"
-E. O. Wilson




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[OpenIndiana-discuss] is the newly released orac-sol 11 an advance compared to oi?

2011-11-10 Thread Harry Putnam 
Too much a noob to be able to figure this out for myself.

I see what appears to be a serious lot of new stuff in release notes
of oracle-solaris 11.

Can anyone compare that new OS with oi espeically considering the
usage being a home nas.  (So maybe not needing many of the sol 11
enhancements but still curious if sol 11 has outstripped oi overall)


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