Re: Java Deployment (was Re: JavaFX 8 Progress)
Hi Mark, NetX is the component used by IcedTea-web, the open replacement for the JDK plugin. Is not formally part of OpenJDK, but Linux distribution use this, and us also compatible at least on Windows. OpenJDK itself doesn't have a plugin component. OpenJFX should work with IcedTea in theory, but I think the code does some assumption on what is available on the platform, so probably there is still some work to do to ensure perfect compliance. Cheers, Mario Il giorno 20/lug/2013 19:27, Mark Fortner phidia...@gmail.com ha scritto: Coincidentally, I was upgrading my ubuntu box recently and noticed that it installed NetX (an open source JNLP alternative by default). http://jnlp.sourceforge.net/netx/index.html I'm not sure what the status is and how this fits into the openjdk vision of the world. Cheers, Mark On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:41 PM, John C. Turnbull ozem...@ozemail.com.auwrote: What's the performance like? What version of Java does it support? Is it a subset of the JRE or complete? -Original Message- From: openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of Sven Reimers Sent: Friday, 19 July 2013 15:01 To: Daniel Zwolenski Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net; mike.ehrenberg@barchart.comEhrenberg; JeremyJongsma Subject: Re: Java Deployment (was Re: JavaFX 8 Progress) A Java Runtime on top of JavaScript - http://wiki.apidesign.org/wiki/Bck2Brwsr -Sven On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:37 AM, Daniel Zwolenski zon...@gmail.com wrote: Yes this is another option, basically running it on a server and then rendering on the client. JavaFX could be extended to do this. Another alternative is a 'java runtime' built on top of jscript (similar idea to the runtime being built for mobile, like robovm). In this cases jfx would run 100% in the browser on top of jscript. Another option is a runtime built for the native elements of each browser. Eg a runtime running on chrome's native interface, etc. All of the above would require a lot of work before being ready to use and likely would have some tradeoffs in terms of features or performance. The options I listed in the last email are in my opinion more achievable in the short term and generally give decent results. Right now, if you want to deploy jfx my pick suggestion would be completely avoid any of the oracle solutions and just pay the licence fee for install4j. Although I'd not seen jwrapper until just now and it could do with some looking into too. On 19/07/2013, at 8:10 AM, Mario Torre neugens.limasoftw...@gmail.com wrote: For Swing you can actually use CacioWeb, works quite well. Zero deployment, no VM needed, no plugin, just an HTML 5 capable browser. Doesn't work with JavaFX unfortunately. Cheers, Mario Il giorno 19/lug/2013 00:03, Daniel Zwolenski zon...@gmail.com ha scritto: There are definitely credible alternatives. The problem is currently the alternatives are not implemented well enough so web still ends up a contender just by being the only one able to stand up. And for the record I build both public facing apps and back-office apps and web deploy does not work well for either. I stopped using jfx because of deployment. I now build only webapps because of deployment. Credible alternatives: 1. Native bundlers, but we need: - auto updating so people can easily release patch updates - smaller co-bundled jre's so that the initial download and install is smooth and quick - better build tools to make this easier to integrate into a standard build process, with some solution for cross-platform build support or to at least minimize the pain 2. App stores: - ready to go right now for Mac but we don't have the tools and I think we need everything fully open sourced for licensing reasons (hard to say) - need to either pick one of the unofficial win app stores for pre-win8 support (there's a few), or build our own app store - we just need tools for building and deploying to app stores (not that hard) and cut down jre sizes again (app stores are an extension of cobundling approach). 3. Self-hosted 'app store' for corporate settings. install a small, native client on the machine that allows that user to download and install apps from your private server, with auto-updating, etc - we need to build one, not that hard, maybe a month or two of work to get a first working version out. I would have built one by now but because jfx packaging tools are so bad I've burnt up all my spare time just putting wrappers around these to get the most basic of maven plugins to work. All of the above could have been implemented by now if there was just a little bit
Re: JavaFX 8 Progress
On 7/18/2013 3:00 AM, David Ray wrote: Hi Richard, I don't see any mention of WebStart and JavaFX on the milestone list - are issues surrounding (and suffocating :)) WebStart going to addressed as part of the JDK release 8 instead? Java Plugin and Java Web Start are not parts of JavaFX (although JavaFX provides some APIs for them), they are shared between JDK and JavaFX and released as a part of Oracle JDK8 (not included to OpenJDK). Thanks, Artem David Sent from my iPhone On Jul 17, 2013, at 12:06 PM, Richard Bair richard.b...@oracle.com wrote: Hi Peter, Our dates match up with JDK 8: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones Feature complete was a month ago (but little API tweaks continue to happen). Things are supposed to be reasonably stable by October 24 (Zero Bug Bounce http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones#Zero_Bug_Bounce) and GA in March. Richard On Jul 17, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Peter Penzov peter.pen...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to JavaFX I'm interested what is the current progress of development of JavaFX 8. I want to use it for base framework for my enterprise application but I have concerns is it stable to be used? Can you give me some information do you plan to add something else before the official release? Best wishes, Peter
Re: JavaFX 8 Progress
Sure, but no one other than the JFX team are (or will be) working on these right? They are effectively desktop technologies and no other team has any interest in them I'm guessing? I'd assume if they're not on the JFX roadmap, they're not on the Java roadmap? On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Artem Ananiev artem.anan...@oracle.comwrote: On 7/18/2013 3:00 AM, David Ray wrote: Hi Richard, I don't see any mention of WebStart and JavaFX on the milestone list - are issues surrounding (and suffocating :)) WebStart going to addressed as part of the JDK release 8 instead? Java Plugin and Java Web Start are not parts of JavaFX (although JavaFX provides some APIs for them), they are shared between JDK and JavaFX and released as a part of Oracle JDK8 (not included to OpenJDK). Thanks, Artem David Sent from my iPhone On Jul 17, 2013, at 12:06 PM, Richard Bair richard.b...@oracle.com wrote: Hi Peter, Our dates match up with JDK 8: http://openjdk.java.net/** projects/jdk8/milestoneshttp://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones Feature complete was a month ago (but little API tweaks continue to happen). Things are supposed to be reasonably stable by October 24 (Zero Bug Bounce http://openjdk.java.net/**projects/jdk8/milestones#Zero_** Bug_Bouncehttp://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones#Zero_Bug_Bounce) and GA in March. Richard On Jul 17, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Peter Penzov peter.pen...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to JavaFX I'm interested what is the current progress of development of JavaFX 8. I want to use it for base framework for my enterprise application but I have concerns is it stable to be used? Can you give me some information do you plan to add something else before the official release? Best wishes, Peter
Re: JavaFX 8 Progress
I don't want to open up the webstart can of worms here, but we have multiple issues surrounding recognition and validity of signed jars when using certain VMARGS in combination with OSGi style deployment. We finally settled on JWrapper due to WebStarts apparent brittleness - but as you say, this is neither here nor there as far as JavaFX is concerned… Anyway, thanks for getting back to us on the deployment tools organization… David On Jul 18, 2013, at 9:22 AM, Joe McGlynn joe.mcgl...@oracle.com wrote: No, the deployment team works on these, not the FX team. It's the same bits for FX and Swing/AWT when running browser-deployed apps (which includes applets and web start). Deployment, FX and Swing are all part of the Java client org. There are a number of bug fixed being worked in this area, as well as new requirements around how to deploy a secure applet or web start app. The deploy code base is currently identical between 7u and JDK 8. If you are working with deploy technologies you should know this area is rapidly changing and I'd strongly advise staying on the latest release (currently 7u40 EA) and following the updates to the docs, especially around best practices for deployment. In short, these are: Buy a code signing certificate from a recognized CA and sign your app Use the new permissions and codebase JAR manifest attributes I'd recommend avoiding the use of mixed code if at all possible as that results in additional warning prompts to the end user and additional runtime risks. I'd also recommend testing your app with the security slider at the Very High level with every update of the JRE. Typically new restrictions are introduced first at Very High, and then propagated down into High and ultimately Medium over time. If there are problems using deployment with FX, of course report the issue and the team will investigate. I'm aware of one problem that causes some FX web start apps not to work with the latest release. It's being investigated right now. On Jul 18, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Daniel Zwolenski zon...@gmail.com wrote: Sure, but no one other than the JFX team are (or will be) working on these right? They are effectively desktop technologies and no other team has any interest in them I'm guessing? I'd assume if they're not on the JFX roadmap, they're not on the Java roadmap? On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Artem Ananiev artem.anan...@oracle.comwrote: On 7/18/2013 3:00 AM, David Ray wrote: Hi Richard, I don't see any mention of WebStart and JavaFX on the milestone list - are issues surrounding (and suffocating :)) WebStart going to addressed as part of the JDK release 8 instead? Java Plugin and Java Web Start are not parts of JavaFX (although JavaFX provides some APIs for them), they are shared between JDK and JavaFX and released as a part of Oracle JDK8 (not included to OpenJDK). Thanks, Artem David Sent from my iPhone On Jul 17, 2013, at 12:06 PM, Richard Bair richard.b...@oracle.com wrote: Hi Peter, Our dates match up with JDK 8: http://openjdk.java.net/** projects/jdk8/milestoneshttp://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones Feature complete was a month ago (but little API tweaks continue to happen). Things are supposed to be reasonably stable by October 24 (Zero Bug Bounce http://openjdk.java.net/**projects/jdk8/milestones#Zero_** Bug_Bouncehttp://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones#Zero_Bug_Bounce) and GA in March. Richard On Jul 17, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Peter Penzov peter.pen...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to JavaFX I'm interested what is the current progress of development of JavaFX 8. I want to use it for base framework for my enterprise application but I have concerns is it stable to be used? Can you give me some information do you plan to add something else before the official release? Best wishes, Peter
Re: JavaFX 8 Progress
By 'deployment team' you mean Mark Howe, etc? There's no other team working on anything to do with deployment right? On 19/07/2013, at 12:22 AM, Joe McGlynn joe.mcgl...@oracle.com wrote: No, the deployment team works on these, not the FX team. It's the same bits for FX and Swing/AWT when running browser-deployed apps (which includes applets and web start). Deployment, FX and Swing are all part of the Java client org. There are a number of bug fixed being worked in this area, as well as new requirements around how to deploy a secure applet or web start app. The deploy code base is currently identical between 7u and JDK 8. If you are working with deploy technologies you should know this area is rapidly changing and I'd strongly advise staying on the latest release (currently 7u40 EA) and following the updates to the docs, especially around best practices for deployment. In short, these are: Buy a code signing certificate from a recognized CA and sign your app Use the new permissions and codebase JAR manifest attributes I'd recommend avoiding the use of mixed code if at all possible as that results in additional warning prompts to the end user and additional runtime risks. I'd also recommend testing your app with the security slider at the Very High level with every update of the JRE. Typically new restrictions are introduced first at Very High, and then propagated down into High and ultimately Medium over time. If there are problems using deployment with FX, of course report the issue and the team will investigate. I'm aware of one problem that causes some FX web start apps not to work with the latest release. It's being investigated right now. On Jul 18, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Daniel Zwolenski zon...@gmail.com wrote: Sure, but no one other than the JFX team are (or will be) working on these right? They are effectively desktop technologies and no other team has any interest in them I'm guessing? I'd assume if they're not on the JFX roadmap, they're not on the Java roadmap? On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Artem Ananiev artem.anan...@oracle.comwrote: On 7/18/2013 3:00 AM, David Ray wrote: Hi Richard, I don't see any mention of WebStart and JavaFX on the milestone list - are issues surrounding (and suffocating :)) WebStart going to addressed as part of the JDK release 8 instead? Java Plugin and Java Web Start are not parts of JavaFX (although JavaFX provides some APIs for them), they are shared between JDK and JavaFX and released as a part of Oracle JDK8 (not included to OpenJDK). Thanks, Artem David Sent from my iPhone On Jul 17, 2013, at 12:06 PM, Richard Bair richard.b...@oracle.com wrote: Hi Peter, Our dates match up with JDK 8: http://openjdk.java.net/** projects/jdk8/milestoneshttp://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones Feature complete was a month ago (but little API tweaks continue to happen). Things are supposed to be reasonably stable by October 24 (Zero Bug Bounce http://openjdk.java.net/**projects/jdk8/milestones#Zero_** Bug_Bouncehttp://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones#Zero_Bug_Bounce) and GA in March. Richard On Jul 17, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Peter Penzov peter.pen...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to JavaFX I'm interested what is the current progress of development of JavaFX 8. I want to use it for base framework for my enterprise application but I have concerns is it stable to be used? Can you give me some information do you plan to add something else before the official release? Best wishes, Peter
Re: JavaFX 8 Progress
JWrapper (no plug - I don't work for them or own stock) solves all of this - you have to bundle the jvm but it's small and the installation is hitch-less… Oracle should buy them out - seriously! David On Jul 18, 2013, at 4:09 PM, ozem...@ozemail.com.au wrote: +1 The various applet and Web Start deployment options are severly damaging the entire Java brand. and should be discontinued ASAP. Even before the recent security issues raised their ugly heads there have been several issues with either launching Java applications from within a web page or running them as applets and the user experience has been dismal to say the least. The main reason why Java applets had such a short-lived period of popularity was because Flash came along. Flash applets started significantly faster, didn't pop-up any security warnings and almost always just worked. The exact opposite was true of applets and, sadly, this has only gone further downhill lately. For many years the browser vendors have gone out of their way to make running Java in the browser a very painful experience for the end user. Now we have the situation where most people assume every Java applet is a security threat and avoid them like the plague. Anyway, I do not believe Java, JavaFX or any plugin-based technology has any place in a web browser. This includes Flash and Silverlight. We have HTML5 for that kind of app. Surely it won't be long until all browser vendors make it *impossible* for Java to run inside the browser or simply not support *any* plugins. What's the point of investing any further effort into the Java Plugin? Yes, I know there are legacy apps and applets out there that need to run but Oracle should be focused on getting JavaFX into the modern platforms and their associated app stores. Why not issue an End Of LIfe bulletin that signals the end of the Java Plugin so anyone out there still relying on Java applets can have time to find an alternative. Let's face it, almost *all* the security vulnerabilities exposed in recent months only affect Java in the browser. All the effort Oracle expends on patching these vulnerabilities and tightening up the security model should be spent on advancing JavaFX on mobiles and tablets. -jct - Original Message - From: Daniel Zwolenski zon...@gmail.com To: David Ray cognitionmiss...@gmail.com Cc: mike.ehrenb...@barchart.com Ehrenberg mike.ehrenb...@barchart.com, openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net, JeremyJongsma jer...@barchart.com Sent: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 06:47:46 +1000 Subject: Re: JavaFX 8 Progress Among general complaints and my own disasters with it, I had this guy write to me: http://web-conferencing-central.com The failure of webstart is making him lose customers (they literally are emailing him and telling him it's too hard to install). This is one of the very few commercial, public apps that use desktop-java and webstart (I'd be keen to know about any others - I know of none that use jfx?). From what I understand of the work being carried out, I highly doubt any of the fixes or improvements being worked on are going to help people like this. I love the idea of web deployment but it's failed and getting worse with the complexities now added in your attempts to keep it secure. In my opinion, web deploy should be deprecated or at least placed in minimal 'bandaid' only fixes and all effort should be put into making native bundles actually useful and into adding app store support. On 19/07/2013, at 2:10 AM, David Ray cognitionmiss...@gmail.com wrote: I don't want to open up the webstart can of worms here, but we have multiple issues surrounding recognition and validity of signed jars when using certain VMARGS in combination with OSGi style deployment. We finally settled on JWrapper due to WebStarts apparent brittleness - but as you say, this is neither here nor there as far as JavaFX is concerned… Anyway, thanks for getting back to us on the deployment tools organization… David On Jul 18, 2013, at 9:22 AM, Joe McGlynn joe.mcgl...@oracle.com wrote: No, the deployment team works on these, not the FX team. It's the same bits for FX and Swing/AWT when running browser-deployed apps (which includes applets and web start). Deployment, FX and Swing are all part of the Java client org. There are a number of bug fixed being worked in this area, as well as new requirements around how to deploy a secure applet or web start app. The deploy code base is currently identical between 7u and JDK 8. If you are working with deploy technologies you should know this area is rapidly changing and I'd strongly advise staying on the latest release (currently 7u40 EA) and following the updates to the docs, especially around best practices for deployment. In short, these are: Buy
Re: JavaFX 8 Progress
I've heard the webstart is broke, don't fix it, move on song before from a number of people. What I haven't heard is a credible solution to solving the very real problem of keeping an app up-to-date in a corporate setting. For the most part, I agree that if you're in the business of selling commercial software, selling and distributing through an app store probably makes sense for you. Although I wouldn't relish having to build on all of those platforms. However, posting proprietary apps to external OS-specific app stores doesn't really work for anyone in a corporate setting. Neither does making a user re-install an application every time you post a bug fix. In addition, many corporations limit the privileges they give users. Cheers, Mark
Re: JavaFX 8 Progress
Hi Mark, I know it is not necessarily helpful to post comments along the lines of this aint working without suggesting viable alternatives but given that I am not privy to Oracle's strategic plans for Web Start or Java in the browser and not privy to the internal technological limitations of such functionality I can only highlight the situation as perceived by the end user and also by the developer. I think it's true that most commercial developers of Java/JavaFX applications will probably want to deploy their software as native bundles or through an app store in preference to Web Start. This may be because their are security issues with Web Start apps that don't effect locally deployed apps and also because of the other issues with Web Start that I referred to. Also, there are some limitations with Web Start in terms of versioning such as: 1. What if I want to install a specific version? 2. What if I *don't* want to install the version currently offered through the Web Start link because it is not compatible with my system configuration or with other software? 3. How do I roll-back to a previous version if I want to? Your comments on corporate deployment are spot on though. However, there are other options for updating software that do not require Web Start. Indeed, many applications *not* written in Java are able to update themselves through a Check for updates menu option or similar. Surely Java/JavaFX applications could be updated in the same way? I recall there was a discussion on this list earlier this year on this very subject with links to 3rd-party auto-updating mechanisms and discussions on Oracle's own plans in ths area. If such a mechanism is developed then *all* JavaFX applications could make use of it and then what would be the need for Web Start? Corporations utilise thousands of applications not written in Java that have the ability to update themselves so why not Java/JavaFX applications too? Cheers, -jct - Original Message - From: Mark Fortner To:Daniel Zwolenski Cc:mike.ehrenb...@barchart.com Ehrenberg , openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net , JeremyJongsma Sent:Thu, 18 Jul 2013 14:30:16 -0700 Subject:Re: JavaFX 8 Progress I've heard the webstart is broke, don't fix it, move on song before from a number of people. What I haven't heard is a credible solution to solving the very real problem of keeping an app up-to-date in a corporate setting. For the most part, I agree that if you're in the business of selling commercial software, selling and distributing through an app store probably makes sense for you. Although I wouldn't relish having to build on all of those platforms. However, posting proprietary apps to external OS-specific app stores doesn't really work for anyone in a corporate setting. Neither does making a user re-install an application every time you post a bug fix. In addition, many corporations limit the privileges they give users. Cheers, Mark
Re: Java Deployment (was Re: JavaFX 8 Progress)
So you're saying, once I create my new JavaFX app with all the new beautiful and wondrous JavaFX goodies - I can do what? Sit at home and look at it? :) David On Jul 18, 2013, at 5:02 PM, Daniel Zwolenski zon...@gmail.com wrote: There are definitely credible alternatives. The problem is currently the alternatives are not implemented well enough so web still ends up a contender just by being the only one able to stand up. And for the record I build both public facing apps and back-office apps and web deploy does not work well for either. I stopped using jfx because of deployment. I now build only webapps because of deployment. Credible alternatives: 1. Native bundlers, but we need: - auto updating so people can easily release patch updates - smaller co-bundled jre's so that the initial download and install is smooth and quick - better build tools to make this easier to integrate into a standard build process, with some solution for cross-platform build support or to at least minimize the pain 2. App stores: - ready to go right now for Mac but we don't have the tools and I think we need everything fully open sourced for licensing reasons (hard to say) - need to either pick one of the unofficial win app stores for pre-win8 support (there's a few), or build our own app store - we just need tools for building and deploying to app stores (not that hard) and cut down jre sizes again (app stores are an extension of cobundling approach). 3. Self-hosted 'app store' for corporate settings. install a small, native client on the machine that allows that user to download and install apps from your private server, with auto-updating, etc - we need to build one, not that hard, maybe a month or two of work to get a first working version out. I would have built one by now but because jfx packaging tools are so bad I've burnt up all my spare time just putting wrappers around these to get the most basic of maven plugins to work. All of the above could have been implemented by now if there was just a little bit of love in this area. One resource ticking away would have been enough to get something going. As it stands there has been zero, nada, zip changes into anything other than web/security deployment efforts over the last year. J8 due next year (!) will not include any of the above, or even any simple improvements to deployment approaches other than web, to the best of my knowledge. On 19/07/2013, at 7:30 AM, Mark Fortner phidia...@gmail.com wrote: I've heard the webstart is broke, don't fix it, move on song before from a number of people. What I haven't heard is a credible solution to solving the very real problem of keeping an app up-to-date in a corporate setting. For the most part, I agree that if you're in the business of selling commercial software, selling and distributing through an app store probably makes sense for you. Although I wouldn't relish having to build on all of those platforms. However, posting proprietary apps to external OS-specific app stores doesn't really work for anyone in a corporate setting. Neither does making a user re-install an application every time you post a bug fix. In addition, many corporations limit the privileges they give users. Cheers, Mark
Re: Java Deployment (was Re: JavaFX 8 Progress)
For Swing you can actually use CacioWeb, works quite well. Zero deployment, no VM needed, no plugin, just an HTML 5 capable browser. Doesn't work with JavaFX unfortunately. Cheers, Mario Il giorno 19/lug/2013 00:03, Daniel Zwolenski zon...@gmail.com ha scritto: There are definitely credible alternatives. The problem is currently the alternatives are not implemented well enough so web still ends up a contender just by being the only one able to stand up. And for the record I build both public facing apps and back-office apps and web deploy does not work well for either. I stopped using jfx because of deployment. I now build only webapps because of deployment. Credible alternatives: 1. Native bundlers, but we need: - auto updating so people can easily release patch updates - smaller co-bundled jre's so that the initial download and install is smooth and quick - better build tools to make this easier to integrate into a standard build process, with some solution for cross-platform build support or to at least minimize the pain 2. App stores: - ready to go right now for Mac but we don't have the tools and I think we need everything fully open sourced for licensing reasons (hard to say) - need to either pick one of the unofficial win app stores for pre-win8 support (there's a few), or build our own app store - we just need tools for building and deploying to app stores (not that hard) and cut down jre sizes again (app stores are an extension of cobundling approach). 3. Self-hosted 'app store' for corporate settings. install a small, native client on the machine that allows that user to download and install apps from your private server, with auto-updating, etc - we need to build one, not that hard, maybe a month or two of work to get a first working version out. I would have built one by now but because jfx packaging tools are so bad I've burnt up all my spare time just putting wrappers around these to get the most basic of maven plugins to work. All of the above could have been implemented by now if there was just a little bit of love in this area. One resource ticking away would have been enough to get something going. As it stands there has been zero, nada, zip changes into anything other than web/security deployment efforts over the last year. J8 due next year (!) will not include any of the above, or even any simple improvements to deployment approaches other than web, to the best of my knowledge. On 19/07/2013, at 7:30 AM, Mark Fortner phidia...@gmail.com wrote: I've heard the webstart is broke, don't fix it, move on song before from a number of people. What I haven't heard is a credible solution to solving the very real problem of keeping an app up-to-date in a corporate setting. For the most part, I agree that if you're in the business of selling commercial software, selling and distributing through an app store probably makes sense for you. Although I wouldn't relish having to build on all of those platforms. However, posting proprietary apps to external OS-specific app stores doesn't really work for anyone in a corporate setting. Neither does making a user re-install an application every time you post a bug fix. In addition, many corporations limit the privileges they give users. Cheers, Mark
Java Deployment (was Re: JavaFX 8 Progress)
There are definitely credible alternatives. The problem is currently the alternatives are not implemented well enough so web still ends up a contender just by being the only one able to stand up. And for the record I build both public facing apps and back-office apps and web deploy does not work well for either. I stopped using jfx because of deployment. I now build only webapps because of deployment. Credible alternatives: 1. Native bundlers, but we need: - auto updating so people can easily release patch updates - smaller co-bundled jre's so that the initial download and install is smooth and quick - better build tools to make this easier to integrate into a standard build process, with some solution for cross-platform build support or to at least minimize the pain 2. App stores: - ready to go right now for Mac but we don't have the tools and I think we need everything fully open sourced for licensing reasons (hard to say) - need to either pick one of the unofficial win app stores for pre-win8 support (there's a few), or build our own app store - we just need tools for building and deploying to app stores (not that hard) and cut down jre sizes again (app stores are an extension of cobundling approach). 3. Self-hosted 'app store' for corporate settings. install a small, native client on the machine that allows that user to download and install apps from your private server, with auto-updating, etc - we need to build one, not that hard, maybe a month or two of work to get a first working version out. I would have built one by now but because jfx packaging tools are so bad I've burnt up all my spare time just putting wrappers around these to get the most basic of maven plugins to work. All of the above could have been implemented by now if there was just a little bit of love in this area. One resource ticking away would have been enough to get something going. As it stands there has been zero, nada, zip changes into anything other than web/security deployment efforts over the last year. J8 due next year (!) will not include any of the above, or even any simple improvements to deployment approaches other than web, to the best of my knowledge. On 19/07/2013, at 7:30 AM, Mark Fortner phidia...@gmail.com wrote: I've heard the webstart is broke, don't fix it, move on song before from a number of people. What I haven't heard is a credible solution to solving the very real problem of keeping an app up-to-date in a corporate setting. For the most part, I agree that if you're in the business of selling commercial software, selling and distributing through an app store probably makes sense for you. Although I wouldn't relish having to build on all of those platforms. However, posting proprietary apps to external OS-specific app stores doesn't really work for anyone in a corporate setting. Neither does making a user re-install an application every time you post a bug fix. In addition, many corporations limit the privileges they give users. Cheers, Mark
RE: Java Deployment (was Re: JavaFX 8 Progress)
auto updating so people can easily release patch updates Checkout getdown = http://code.google.com/p/getdown/. It's simple, proven open source tech used to distribute the Puzzle Pirates MMORPG which had 4 million accounts and 250 million hours of play time in 2008. Forking getdown, swapping out its existing thin Swing UI and replacing it with a configurable JavaFX UI is likely a pretty easy process. Some additional work would need to be done to integrate it into modern build/deploy tool chains such as the javafx maven and gradle plugins. I think it makes sense for the native bundling option where the combination of the two allows (IMO) a reasonable replacement for webstart. Replacing applets is more difficult, you probably want to use something like CacioWeb or have cloud based logic and some rendering with a streaming protocol to the browser and final rendering inside an html5 canvas, but that kind of technology does not exist for JavaFX as far as I know. John -Original Message- From: openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of Mario Torre Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 3:10 PM To: Daniel Zwolenski Cc: mike.ehrenberg@barchart.comEhrenberg; openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net; JeremyJongsma Subject: Re: Java Deployment (was Re: JavaFX 8 Progress) For Swing you can actually use CacioWeb, works quite well. Zero deployment, no VM needed, no plugin, just an HTML 5 capable browser. Doesn't work with JavaFX unfortunately. Cheers, Mario Il giorno 19/lug/2013 00:03, Daniel Zwolenski zon...@gmail.com ha scritto: There are definitely credible alternatives. The problem is currently the alternatives are not implemented well enough so web still ends up a contender just by being the only one able to stand up. And for the record I build both public facing apps and back-office apps and web deploy does not work well for either. I stopped using jfx because of deployment. I now build only webapps because of deployment. Credible alternatives: 1. Native bundlers, but we need: - auto updating so people can easily release patch updates - smaller co-bundled jre's so that the initial download and install is smooth and quick - better build tools to make this easier to integrate into a standard build process, with some solution for cross-platform build support or to at least minimize the pain 2. App stores: - ready to go right now for Mac but we don't have the tools and I think we need everything fully open sourced for licensing reasons (hard to say) - need to either pick one of the unofficial win app stores for pre-win8 support (there's a few), or build our own app store - we just need tools for building and deploying to app stores (not that hard) and cut down jre sizes again (app stores are an extension of cobundling approach). 3. Self-hosted 'app store' for corporate settings. install a small, native client on the machine that allows that user to download and install apps from your private server, with auto-updating, etc - we need to build one, not that hard, maybe a month or two of work to get a first working version out. I would have built one by now but because jfx packaging tools are so bad I've burnt up all my spare time just putting wrappers around these to get the most basic of maven plugins to work. All of the above could have been implemented by now if there was just a little bit of love in this area. One resource ticking away would have been enough to get something going. As it stands there has been zero, nada, zip changes into anything other than web/security deployment efforts over the last year. J8 due next year (!) will not include any of the above, or even any simple improvements to deployment approaches other than web, to the best of my knowledge. On 19/07/2013, at 7:30 AM, Mark Fortner phidia...@gmail.com wrote: I've heard the webstart is broke, don't fix it, move on song before from a number of people. What I haven't heard is a credible solution to solving the very real problem of keeping an app up-to-date in a corporate setting. For the most part, I agree that if you're in the business of selling commercial software, selling and distributing through an app store probably makes sense for you. Although I wouldn't relish having to build on all of those platforms. However, posting proprietary apps to external OS-specific app stores doesn't really work for anyone in a corporate setting. Neither does making a user re-install an application every time you post a bug fix. In addition, many corporations limit the privileges they give users. Cheers, Mark
Re: Java Deployment (was Re: JavaFX 8 Progress)
A list of JWrapper's features: Oracle, are you ready to buy these guys yet? If you don't, we will… :) Easily deploy Java as native apps (for free) But lets break that down... Easily... To us, this means being able to build for everything, on anything - true cross platform builds. Multiple developers can share one build file, yet everyone can build for every OS. Users can get hold of your app and updates no matter what web server or scripting language you use. You issue a new automatically updated release by overwriting some files on your web server, and if we do our best to ensure your app has a predictable, stable environment. If use a system JRE we even copy it so you aren't exposed when Oracle decides to update it and break API. …deploy Java... To us, this means creating signed, iconified, automatically updating OS-native apps that can pick up a system JRE, download or bundle a heavily compressed one. Since we're replacing applets it also means making your app available on your website by just sharing the files and adding one line of HTML to embed a JavaScript download button. It also means stuff like automatically detecting HTTP proxies from wherever makes the OS has that info (system settings, browser settings) so that you don't have to guess at them yourself or hope that the system JRE is set up to use the right one (if there even is one). …as native apps To us this means it looks and feels like a native app. On Windows this means a signed executable which can elevate as you need. On OSX this means a signed .app file inside a DMG. On Linux this means a native exe inside a double-click extractable tar.
Re: JavaFX 8 Progress
Awesome - on the surface it does look like what Oracle were/should-be trying to build with their packaging tools - and it's free! If you use it a bit, let me know how it goes. If it's any good I'll look at wrappering this in a Maven plugin (looks straight forward). Maybe we can cut Oracle out of this altogether and get some actual progress here. If you can get your JWrappered reportmill app deployed somewhere, I'd be keen to try it out and see what the end user experience is like. Just trying their sample apps now. On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:43 AM, Jeff Martin j...@reportmill.com wrote: Wow - JWrapper really is remarkable. It took me less than 30 minutes to figure out how to package our ReportMill app for Mac, Windows and Linux. Worked like magic. It doesn't include JavaFX yet, though, even though the Mac JRE is 1.7.0u25. Jeff On Jul 18, 2013, at 4:20 PM, David Ray cognitionmiss...@gmail.com wrote: JWrapper (no plug - I don't work for them or own stock) solves all of this - you have to bundle the jvm but it's small and the installation is hitch-less… Oracle should buy them out - seriously! David On Jul 18, 2013, at 4:09 PM, ozem...@ozemail.com.au wrote: +1 The various applet and Web Start deployment options are severly damaging the entire Java brand. and should be discontinued ASAP. Even before the recent security issues raised their ugly heads there have been several issues with either launching Java applications from within a web page or running them as applets and the user experience has been dismal to say the least. The main reason why Java applets had such a short-lived period of popularity was because Flash came along. Flash applets started significantly faster, didn't pop-up any security warnings and almost always just worked. The exact opposite was true of applets and, sadly, this has only gone further downhill lately. For many years the browser vendors have gone out of their way to make running Java in the browser a very painful experience for the end user. Now we have the situation where most people assume every Java applet is a security threat and avoid them like the plague. Anyway, I do not believe Java, JavaFX or any plugin-based technology has any place in a web browser. This includes Flash and Silverlight. We have HTML5 for that kind of app. Surely it won't be long until all browser vendors make it *impossible* for Java to run inside the browser or simply not support *any* plugins. What's the point of investing any further effort into the Java Plugin? Yes, I know there are legacy apps and applets out there that need to run but Oracle should be focused on getting JavaFX into the modern platforms and their associated app stores. Why not issue an End Of LIfe bulletin that signals the end of the Java Plugin so anyone out there still relying on Java applets can have time to find an alternative. Let's face it, almost *all* the security vulnerabilities exposed in recent months only affect Java in the browser. All the effort Oracle expends on patching these vulnerabilities and tightening up the security model should be spent on advancing JavaFX on mobiles and tablets. -jct - Original Message - From: Daniel Zwolenski zon...@gmail.com To: David Ray cognitionmiss...@gmail.com Cc: mike.ehrenb...@barchart.com Ehrenberg mike.ehrenb...@barchart.com, openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net, JeremyJongsma jer...@barchart.com Sent: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 06:47:46 +1000 Subject: Re: JavaFX 8 Progress Among general complaints and my own disasters with it, I had this guy write to me: http://web-conferencing-central.com The failure of webstart is making him lose customers (they literally are emailing him and telling him it's too hard to install). This is one of the very few commercial, public apps that use desktop-java and webstart (I'd be keen to know about any others - I know of none that use jfx?). From what I understand of the work being carried out, I highly doubt any of the fixes or improvements being worked on are going to help people like this. I love the idea of web deployment but it's failed and getting worse with the complexities now added in your attempts to keep it secure. In my opinion, web deploy should be deprecated or at least placed in minimal 'bandaid' only fixes and all effort should be put into making native bundles actually useful and into adding app store support. On 19/07/2013, at 2:10 AM, David Ray cognitionmiss...@gmail.com wrote: I don't want to open up the webstart can of worms here, but we have multiple issues surrounding recognition and validity of signed jars when using certain VMARGS in combination with OSGi style deployment. We finally settled on JWrapper due to WebStarts apparent brittleness - but as you say, this is neither here nor there as far as JavaFX is concerned… Anyway
JavaFX 8 Progress
Hi, I'm new to JavaFX I'm interested what is the current progress of development of JavaFX 8. I want to use it for base framework for my enterprise application but I have concerns is it stable to be used? Can you give me some information do you plan to add something else before the official release? Best wishes, Peter
Re: JavaFX 8 Progress
Hi Peter, Our dates match up with JDK 8: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones Feature complete was a month ago (but little API tweaks continue to happen). Things are supposed to be reasonably stable by October 24 (Zero Bug Bounce http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones#Zero_Bug_Bounce) and GA in March. Richard On Jul 17, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Peter Penzov peter.pen...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to JavaFX I'm interested what is the current progress of development of JavaFX 8. I want to use it for base framework for my enterprise application but I have concerns is it stable to be used? Can you give me some information do you plan to add something else before the official release? Best wishes, Peter
Re: JavaFX 8 Progress
Hi Richard, I don't see any mention of WebStart and JavaFX on the milestone list - are issues surrounding (and suffocating :)) WebStart going to addressed as part of the JDK release 8 instead? David Sent from my iPhone On Jul 17, 2013, at 12:06 PM, Richard Bair richard.b...@oracle.com wrote: Hi Peter, Our dates match up with JDK 8: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones Feature complete was a month ago (but little API tweaks continue to happen). Things are supposed to be reasonably stable by October 24 (Zero Bug Bounce http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk8/milestones#Zero_Bug_Bounce) and GA in March. Richard On Jul 17, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Peter Penzov peter.pen...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to JavaFX I'm interested what is the current progress of development of JavaFX 8. I want to use it for base framework for my enterprise application but I have concerns is it stable to be used? Can you give me some information do you plan to add something else before the official release? Best wishes, Peter
