Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Andy Green wrote: |> | thing that hints at a problem is that INT4.lowsys is set after |> | the sudden shutdown. |> |> Wouldn't this get set as a symptom of the shutdown, not a cause? | | I'm kinda curious about that myself :-) My current understanding | is that Vsys shouldn't drop merely as a consequence of going into | Standby, and that power that is cut in Standby is cut at the | regulators. (Otherwise, STBYCTLx != 0 wouldn't be possible.) Sure, but if Vsys did get forced off, you will probably see a lowsys action. I agree it shouldn't get forced off legitimately as far as we know. |> I wonder if what it is doing as part of the charging action is removing |> the load from the battery so it can assess the voltage on it. This |> would "have consequences" if there was no external power. | | That's a different scenario. The one that's causing these problems | is: | | - charger disabled | - (sufficient) USB power | - no or weak battery (still have to determine what is "too weak") | | The system can stay in this state indefinitely. But as soon as I | enable the charger, it dies quickly (within tens of milliseconds | if not faster). Any chance it is a false high temp interrupt? p42 of the datasheet talks about the (unused) temp sensing stuff being able to force pcf to SAVE state if the interrupt isn't responded to in 1s -- we didn't have interrupt handler in U-Boot last I looked. The way the temp thing is apparently set up you'll see different "temp" vs NTCSW pin which is "controlled by the MBC" p92. | So what I'll do is to look at Vsys directly (wish we had it on a | test pad), and to capture the timing with more accuracy (i.e., | oscilloscope, not multimeter). I did this some months ago when I found the lack of capacitor on Vsys :-) There were periods of nothingness in there as I recall. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhjg+cACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqq0ACfRolXb+/4fMnGS3F55DxhY+VS jRUAnRxd2PDHO5UfwCjFGzMucpYTF1pT =ufiT -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
Andy Green wrote: > | thing that hints at a problem is that INT4.lowsys is set after > | the sudden shutdown. > > Wouldn't this get set as a symptom of the shutdown, not a cause? I'm kinda curious about that myself :-) My current understanding is that Vsys shouldn't drop merely as a consequence of going into Standby, and that power that is cut in Standby is cut at the regulators. (Otherwise, STBYCTLx != 0 wouldn't be possible.) > I wonder if what it is doing as part of the charging action is removing > the load from the battery so it can assess the voltage on it. This > would "have consequences" if there was no external power. That's a different scenario. The one that's causing these problems is: - charger disabled - (sufficient) USB power - no or weak battery (still have to determine what is "too weak") The system can stay in this state indefinitely. But as soon as I enable the charger, it dies quickly (within tens of milliseconds if not faster). So what I'll do is to look at Vsys directly (wish we had it on a test pad), and to capture the timing with more accuracy (i.e., oscilloscope, not multimeter). - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | With 45mA we're comfortably in a zone where we can run from USB. | GTA02v5 still isn't entirely happy, due to the high LED current, | but GTA02v6 should be okay. I'll make a patch later. Sounds good. | There's one remaining problem: why does my GTA02 shut down when | enabling the charger while there's no battery ? | | I examined the PMU settings at various points (I've written a | pretty-printer for PMU and other register dumps, | http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/greg/), and the only | thing that hints at a problem is that INT4.lowsys is set after | the sudden shutdown. Wouldn't this get set as a symptom of the shutdown, not a cause? | So it seems that the all-important Vsys wants closer examination, | to see if it's just unstable or if the source is indeed turned | off. That'll be fun ... I wonder if what it is doing as part of the charging action is removing the load from the battery so it can assess the voltage on it. This would "have consequences" if there was no external power. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhjTioACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqQWACgkdjLtkDCh/dvtrEhIwptk7Gd c5wAoIsuM0fQbRjKprle/qnWoKADGZ4T =G4Ry -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
I wrote: > Now, on to strangling the Glamo ... Here we go: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/meas/chg/choke-glamo/out.ps The next and for now final step is to enter CPU IDLE in wait_for_power instead of busy-looping and polling the PMU like crazy: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/meas/chg/cpu-idle/out.ps (Note: the directories with out.ps also contain the raw data, a more detailed description of the experiments, and sometimes other related material.) So the current drawn in wait_for_power is, when the LED is off: Baseline: 155mA [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 125mA Unused LDOs off: 85mA Halt Glamo: 70mA CPU IDLE:45mA With 45mA we're comfortably in a zone where we can run from USB. GTA02v5 still isn't entirely happy, due to the high LED current, but GTA02v6 should be okay. I'll make a patch later. There's one remaining problem: why does my GTA02 shut down when enabling the charger while there's no battery ? I examined the PMU settings at various points (I've written a pretty-printer for PMU and other register dumps, http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/greg/), and the only thing that hints at a problem is that INT4.lowsys is set after the sudden shutdown. So it seems that the all-important Vsys wants closer examination, to see if it's just unstable or if the source is indeed turned off. That'll be fun ... - Werner
RE: My Gta02s wont charge
Thanks. Micheal, Friday is looking like a better day for me -Original Message- From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:17 PM To: steve Cc: 'Andy Green'; 'Joerg Reisenweber'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org; 'Sean McNeil'; 'Michael Shiloh' Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge steve wrote: > For completeness let's review the steps you want michale and I to go > through. 1) Measure the voltage across the terminals of the "dead" battery and post the result. Expected result: either no measurable voltage, or somewhere in the 2.4V-3.6V range. 2) If the voltage measured in 1) was very low (<1V), take a power supply in the 4V-5V range (*) and connect briefly (~1s) to the "dead" battery, such that + goes to + and - goes to -. Then measure the battery voltage again. (*) Examples, in increasing degree of fanciness: - one of those ancient 4.5V batteries, e.g., the leftmost in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Batterien.JPG - some wall adapter that emits 4-5V DC - another Neo battery (charged) - lab power supply, e.g., http://www.tequipment.net/popup.html?ProductImages/Instek/InstekGPS_D.jpg If the voltage measured in 1) was significantly above zero or 2) doesn't help, you may consider charging it in an external charger or from a lab power supply (if Michael has any of these). For the latter, set the voltage limit to 4.2V, the current limit to 0.8A, connect + to + and - to -, and enjoy some beers while waiting. You should see the voltage rise to 4.2V with the current constantly at 0.8A, and then the voltage remains at 4.2V while the current drops towards 0A. Your battery is charged when the current drops below 0.1A. Please be careful not exceed the 4.2V. A bit less (e.g., 4.0V) is okay, but will charge the battery only partially. If also external charging doesn't restore the battery to a working condition, then it may have suffered some permanent damage. - Werner
RE: My Gta02s wont charge
No, werner wants us to do some tests. I have to reschedule to come to your house on Friday. We will figure it out there. -Original Message- From: Michael Shiloh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:32 PM To: steve Cc: 'Joerg Reisenweber'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge I'm back now, and I have a couple. Should I mail you one? Michael steve wrote: > Ah, > > problem is getting a good battery. Local stores don't carry battery > chargers. > > > > -Original Message- > From: Joerg Reisenweber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 10:52 AM > To: openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org > Cc: steve; 'Sean McNeil' > Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge > > A sure fix should be: insert "good" battery, attach wall-charger, boot > all the way to system, replace "good" by drained battery *without* > switching off or suspending system. > /j > > Am So 22. Juni 2008 schrieb steve: >> Haha the vulcan mind meld. I will try it >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Sean McNeil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:17 AM >> To: steve >> Cc: 'Werner Almesberger'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org >> Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge >> >> Yes, I can run off usb without the a battery. But if I have a drained >> battery, I cannot. Seems like charging pulls too much power so I >> cannot run.What I had to do at one time was pull battery and charger >> out. Hold down the aux key. Put battery in. Put usb in. hold down the > power key. >> release aux key. wait for menu. When I did this the battery starts to >> charge. >> >> steve wrote: >>> Na, mine wont run off USB power. I'll double check on a 2nd computer. >>> My unit is pre production, but I know guys have done battery drain >>> tests With no problems. So, scratches head >>> >>> I tried with the battery in, battery out. Sean, can you run yours >>> while plugged into usb with the battery removed? >>> You have a phone from the same batch I have. >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:24 PM >>> To: Sean McNeil >>> Cc: steve; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org >>> Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge >>> >>> Sean McNeil wrote: >>> >>>> You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. >>>> >>> Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 >>> samples) to run from USB power for more than a few seconds. >>> >>> Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the >>> charger if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting >>> while it has any power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the >>> charger happens to be turned off, USB power is simply ignored. >>> >>> So far the theory. I've tried to actually confirm that behaviour (so >>> that I could observe an improvement after changing the logic), but >>> only got more or less random results, with the system occasionally >>> not charging when it should, and (quite often) happily powering up >>> when I didn't expect it to :-( >>> >>> So there seems to be more going on than meets the eye. >>> >>> - Werner >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > >
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
I'm back now, and I have a couple. Should I mail you one? Michael steve wrote: Ah, problem is getting a good battery. Local stores don't carry battery chargers. -Original Message- From: Joerg Reisenweber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 10:52 AM To: openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Cc: steve; 'Sean McNeil' Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge A sure fix should be: insert "good" battery, attach wall-charger, boot all the way to system, replace "good" by drained battery *without* switching off or suspending system. /j Am So 22. Juni 2008 schrieb steve: Haha the vulcan mind meld. I will try it -Original Message- From: Sean McNeil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:17 AM To: steve Cc: 'Werner Almesberger'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge Yes, I can run off usb without the a battery. But if I have a drained battery, I cannot. Seems like charging pulls too much power so I cannot run.What I had to do at one time was pull battery and charger out. Hold down the aux key. Put battery in. Put usb in. hold down the power key. release aux key. wait for menu. When I did this the battery starts to charge. steve wrote: Na, mine wont run off USB power. I'll double check on a 2nd computer. My unit is pre production, but I know guys have done battery drain tests With no problems. So, scratches head I tried with the battery in, battery out. Sean, can you run yours while plugged into usb with the battery removed? You have a phone from the same batch I have. -Original Message- From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:24 PM To: Sean McNeil Cc: steve; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge Sean McNeil wrote: You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 samples) to run from USB power for more than a few seconds. Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the charger if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting while it has any power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the charger happens to be turned off, USB power is simply ignored. So far the theory. I've tried to actually confirm that behaviour (so that I could observe an improvement after changing the logic), but only got more or less random results, with the system occasionally not charging when it should, and (quite often) happily powering up when I didn't expect it to :-( So there seems to be more going on than meets the eye. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
steve wrote: > For completeness let's review the steps you want michale and I to go > through. 1) Measure the voltage across the terminals of the "dead" battery and post the result. Expected result: either no measurable voltage, or somewhere in the 2.4V-3.6V range. 2) If the voltage measured in 1) was very low (<1V), take a power supply in the 4V-5V range (*) and connect briefly (~1s) to the "dead" battery, such that + goes to + and - goes to -. Then measure the battery voltage again. (*) Examples, in increasing degree of fanciness: - one of those ancient 4.5V batteries, e.g., the leftmost in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Batterien.JPG - some wall adapter that emits 4-5V DC - another Neo battery (charged) - lab power supply, e.g., http://www.tequipment.net/popup.html?ProductImages/Instek/InstekGPS_D.jpg If the voltage measured in 1) was significantly above zero or 2) doesn't help, you may consider charging it in an external charger or from a lab power supply (if Michael has any of these). For the latter, set the voltage limit to 4.2V, the current limit to 0.8A, connect + to + and - to -, and enjoy some beers while waiting. You should see the voltage rise to 4.2V with the current constantly at 0.8A, and then the voltage remains at 4.2V while the current drops towards 0A. Your battery is charged when the current drops below 0.1A. Please be careful not exceed the 4.2V. A bit less (e.g., 4.0V) is okay, but will charge the battery only partially. If also external charging doesn't restore the battery to a working condition, then it may have suffered some permanent damage. - Werner
RE: My Gta02s wont charge
Micheal, I will bring my phone to your house on Thursday. I should be there by 10AM or so, See the thread. I trust you have the gear to jump start my battery, otherwise we can canabalize One of my old razr chargers. Let me know. For completeness let's review the steps you want michale and I to go through. Steve -Original Message- From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 2:16 PM To: steve Cc: 'Andy Green'; 'Joerg Reisenweber'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org; 'Sean McNeil'; Michael Shiloh Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge steve wrote: > The biggest issue is not me getting a charged battery. The big issue > is how does the total system respond when you drain the battery to > dead zero > and then jack it in? Yeah. There are two things we want to find out: 1) How can we recover from that state ? 2) How can we make sure it doesn't happen again ? (Or, failing that, that it doesn't happen again too easily.) Looking forward to the measurement results and hearing how the "jumpstart" experiment goes. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
Andy Green wrote: > We could crank up the clock later I suppose, keeping the backlight, LCM > and Glamo all down if they're up at this time. The Glamo has 80MHz PLL > and its own DRAM so I don't think it's that cheap to run. Just leaving the CPU at 200MHz (instead of cranking it up to 400MHz in board_init) saves 30mA, turning off the LDOs another 40mA. Almost there, without even trying hard :-) Baseline: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/meas/chg/usb-100/out.ps (The the 5s-20s segment corresponds to the measurements below.) [EMAIL PROTECTED]: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/meas/chg/cpu-200/out.ps LDOs off: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/meas/chg/ldo-off/out.ps We still seem to lose a few mA when we bring up the PMU (small step near 6.5s). Our base consumption when just out of reset seems to be around 60mA. Now, on to strangling the Glamo ... - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Andy Green wrote: |> It could be that chgena = 0 means no system power but it seems a bit |> insane (especially as chgena is 0 from the get-go as we now know). | | I does, indeed. I poked around some more, and the PMU is sane when it | comes to that. However, I'm not sure you'll like all my results ... Not at all, I didn't see anything I didn't like worse than the disproved "charger disable depowers whole device" thing. Nice work examining it all. | Observations: | - the USB-SYS path works as documented | - the charger does not need to be enabled for USB-SYS to work | - system runs from battery alone, USB alone, and both combined Good this is what I experienced too, and its compatible with ---> | - if there is no battery and we try to enable the charger, the | system turns off instantly (!!!) ... because back in the day when I was running fine with no battery, I am not sure charging in U-Boot was straightened out. | We also draw more than 100mA even before reaching the wait_for_power | loop (and there, blinking the LED makes things even worse, but this | is expected). So we need to save a bit of power in the early system | bringup. We could crank up the clock later I suppose, keeping the backlight, LCM and Glamo all down if they're up at this time. The Glamo has 80MHz PLL and its own DRAM so I don't think it's that cheap to run. The other assets on the device are meant to be down by default already AFAIK. | There's also the mystery result that enabling the charger while running | only from battery reduces battery current. That must be some of that | Dark Energy everybody's talking about. This doesn't violate any laws of physics, the universe has taken care that you cannot actually charge a battery with it since it only comes when you disable the charger ;-) - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhgzxwACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpf8gCggrbSqD/f8iY3Q0TAG9roNgUE rUcAn2mJ6NN4CLMxYjmUhVlh4nOc8qJD =mO2m -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
Andy Green wrote: > It could be that chgena = 0 means no system power but it seems a bit > insane (especially as chgena is 0 from the get-go as we now know). I does, indeed. I poked around some more, and the PMU is sane when it comes to that. However, I'm not sure you'll like all my results ... The general setup is a GTA02v5 connected to a real battery, with a modified u-boot that goes into an endless loop after initializing the PMU. In this loop, I can toggle one setting. Also, the red LED blinks at 0.5 Hz. This is what the typical code change looks like: http://people.openmoko.org/werner/experiment-usb-100.patch In all the tests below, I start with only the battery, then add USB, and then disconnect the battery. Interrupts are disabled, so there is no USB signaling. The experiments and their results: Use USB-SYS path to power the system http://people.openmoko.org/werner/usb-sys.ps Hardware setup: - battery charged to about 4.2V Software setup: - regular u-boot PMU setup (we intercept u-boot at wait_for_power) - disable charger (MBCC1.chgena = 0) - set USB to "suspend" (MBCC7.usbdevstat = 3) - enable USB-SYS path (MBCC8.usbenasus = 1) - red LED blinks at 1Hz, using wait_for_power logic Actions: - t=~2s: power up from battery - t=~20-30: temporarily enable charger (MBCC1.chgena = 1) - t=~32: connect USB (without signaling) - t=~45-55: temporarily enable charger - t=~60: disconnect battery - t=~70-80: temporarily enable charger Observations: - the USB-SYS path works as documented - the charger does not need to be enabled for USB-SYS to work - system runs from battery alone, USB alone, and both combined - enabling the charger when running from battery slightly reduces battery current (duh !) Examine charger on/off with USB current limit set to 500mA http://people.openmoko.org/werner/usb-500.ps Hardware setup: - battery charged to about 4.1V Software setup: - regular u-boot PMU setup (we intercept u-boot at wait_for_power) - disable charger (MBCC1.chgena = 0) - set USB current limit at 500mA (MBCC7.usbdevstat = 1) - disable USB-SYS path (MBCC8.usbenasus = 0) - red LED blinks at 1Hz, using wait_for_power logic Actions: - t=~2s: power up from battery - t=~20-32: temporarily enable charger (MBCC1.chgena = 1) - t=~33: connect USB (without signaling) - t=~48-58: temporarily enable charger - t=~60: remove battery - t=~69: temporarily enable charger Observations: - we don't need to enable the charger to power the system (!!!) - if there is no battery and we try to enable the charger, the system turns off instantly (!!!) - again, enabling the charger while running only from battery slightly improves power consumption Alternate between 100mA and 500mA current limit (charger disabled) http://people.openmoko.org/werner/usb-100.ps Hardware setup: - battery charged to about 4.2V Software setup: - regular u-boot PMU setup (we intercept u-boot at wait_for_power) - disable charger (MBCC1.chgena = 0) - set USB current limit at 100mA (MBCC7.usbdevstat = 0) - disable USB-SYS path (MBCC8.usbenasus = 0) - red LED blinks at 1Hz, using wait_for_power logic Actions: - t=~2s: power up from battery - t=~22-32: temporarily switch to 500mA (MBCC7.usbdevstat = 1) - t=~33: connect USB (without signaling) - t=~44-57: temporarily switch to 500mA - t=~58: remove battery Observations: - again, we don't need to enable the charger to power the system - the current limit is properly observed - when removing the battery, 100mA from USB are not enough to run the system, thus it shuts down The good news is that we don't need to enable the charger to get power to Vsys. The not so joyful news is that, if the charger is enabled but there's no battery, something kills the system immediately. Gotta find out what, and how to defang it. We also draw more than 100mA even before reaching the wait_for_power loop (and there, blinking the LED makes things even worse, but this is expected). So we need to save a bit of power in the early system bringup. There's also the mystery result that enabling the charger while running only from battery reduces battery current. That must be some of that Dark Energy everybody's talking about. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > Saturday Jan mentioned there allegedly is some exception for USB allowing a > spike up to 500mA for some ms, for init purposes. That would be handy :-) Here's what happens when we power up (three runs, all with the same setting): http://people.openmoko.org/werner/start1.ps http://people.openmoko.org/werner/start2.ps http://people.openmoko.org/werner/start3.ps The red graph is the current we draw. Green is the voltage at the cathode of one of the LEDs behind POWER. The u-boot you see here has been instrumented to switch the LED on when start.S begins executing, and to turn it off again when u-boot has loaded and relocated itself. The time during which the LED is lit is the small step around 0.5V in the green graph. Unfortunately, the resolution in the time axis if very poor. What we can see is that the current spike happens around the time u-boot does its first timid steps and not a lot earlier (which would be nasty). Note that this is a GTA02v5, so the POWER LEDs (I turn on both of them) contribute about 100mA to all this. So the charger may actually kick in even a bit later. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
steve wrote: > The biggest issue is not me getting a charged battery. The big issue > is how does the total system respond when you drain the battery to dead > zero > and then jack it in? Yeah. There are two things we want to find out: 1) How can we recover from that state ? 2) How can we make sure it doesn't happen again ? (Or, failing that, that it doesn't happen again too easily.) Looking forward to the measurement results and hearing how the "jumpstart" experiment goes. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Andy Green wrote: |> It's pretty strange that "disable charger" --> "don't even power the |> device from USB"... does it explicitly say that anywhere | | Not really. But I didn't see it describe any alternative paths either. | |> or is that just what we are empirically seeing? | | That we do. I'm now seeing it more consistently. Perhaps I used too | high a battery voltage in my earlier experiments, so I only hovered | around Vth(sysok) = 3.1V (*), but didn't reach Vth(batok) = 2.8V. | | (*) Set by u-boot. NoPower defaults are different. | | Also, Sean McNeils experiment confirms these findings. I don't doubt we're seeing it and it's a real problem, I just don't really understand why yet. It could be that chgena = 0 means no system power but it seems a bit insane (especially as chgena is 0 from the get-go as we now know). It can be a bug in pcf I suppose, but it's probably our fault somehow. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhf8QcACgkQOjLpvpq7dMr2eACePmvQBRgvRfJB2gKQ05br4ozj mdQAnAq2we/bTHpMHiC/i2X7Fs+K/tAT =46nZ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
RE: My Gta02s wont charge
Well, micheal will get back in town and I will go visit him on Thursday. Since I don't know a volt from an ohm, he will do the testing. ( I do, but he is the better man for the job) The biggest issue is not me getting a charged battery. The big issue is how does the total system respond when you drain the battery to dead zero and then jack it in? Steve -Original Message- From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 1:39 PM To: Andy Green Cc: Joerg Reisenweber; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org; Sean McNeil; steve Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge Andy Green wrote: > This will also solve the "no charging when PMU left on its own if > charger off was the last order" issue as a side effect. That's one of the things I'm not convinced about. If the PMU manual is to be believed, there's no active current path to the battery or Vsys in that state. Furthermore, if the battery is below the Vsys detection threshold voltage, Vth(sysmin) = 2.5V, and there is no other current path to Vsys, the system shouldn't come up for whatever reason. Heh, just tried that setup, and this time it really didn't come up when I plugged in USB. Finally something works as expected ;-) There's the procedure: - make sure MBCC1.chgena isn't set (e.g., disconnect USB, power up, then remove the battery) - discharge a battery through a resistor until the internal protection circuit cuts it off. This happens around 2.5V with GTA02 batteries, 2.2V with GTA01 batteries. - insert the battery - plug in USB Steve, can you please measure the voltage of your "dead" battery ? Steve, if your battery reads 0V, there's something you could try: - find a power source that delivers roughly 4-5V - briefly (for a second or so), connect that power source to the battery, such that + connects to + and - to -, i.e., like jump-starting a car. With a little luck, this little jolt will have convinced the protection circuit that the battery can stand some more use, and the battery will now deliver >2.5V, enough to bring up the Neo and charge from USB. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
Andy Green wrote: > It's pretty strange that "disable charger" --> "don't even power the > device from USB"... does it explicitly say that anywhere Not really. But I didn't see it describe any alternative paths either. > or is that just what we are empirically seeing? That we do. I'm now seeing it more consistently. Perhaps I used too high a battery voltage in my earlier experiments, so I only hovered around Vth(sysok) = 3.1V (*), but didn't reach Vth(batok) = 2.8V. (*) Set by u-boot. NoPower defaults are different. Also, Sean McNeils experiment confirms these findings. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
Am Mo 23. Juni 2008 schrieb Andy Green: > Somebody in the thread at some point said: > | Andy Green wrote: > |> So we should probably also want to come up from pcf50633-standby > |> with charging disabled there until we can set correct parameters. > | > | This brings us back to the problem what we do if we have an dead > | battery. (That is, < 2.5V.) > | > | If the charger is off, there doesn't seem to be an alternative > | path to deliver power to Vsys. Thus, the PMU never lets us enter > | Active (for Vsys is too low), and it will also not charge the > | battery (since the charger is disabled). > | > | I think we have to look for a solution along the lines of setting > | chgena = 1 and live with that 500mA spike until the CPU gains > | control. > > There is probably some delay between power coming and charging starting > anyway. And it should be some hundred and so ms until the CPU comes up. > ~ And we don't have much choice AFAIK. > > Charger disabled is no problem if it's true the CPU is going to come up, > it will come up and enable the charger. We need to confirm we can > always get the CPU to come up on power insertion, then we are OK I > think... is the "shutdown -h now" case OK, where he remains powered from > laptop USB that is not validly enumerated after he shuts down but maybe > he sits there off eating 500mA? > > It's pretty strange that "disable charger" --> "don't even power the > device from USB"... does it explicitly say that anywhere or is that just > what we are empirically seeing? I saw that these paths are considered > part of the charger unit but not really that charging and device > function are bound together so tightly. Well I didn't check yet (had a busy day on some other issue ;-), but I think if there's some little chance we might fail on bringing up the CPU, we have to avoid to ever enter this state. Means I'd prefer to have charger enabled all the time, even if this means we are violating specs of USB for some short time due to the stupid reset of I-usb-max to 500mA. Saturday Jan mentioned there allegedly is some exception for USB allowing a spike up to 500mA for some ms, for init purposes. And Werner made me notice the function in u-boot. So maybe we are even fine with the chgena=1 and "spike" scenario Werner mentioned. And I wouldn't care too much about breaking any specs here, other devices (hd-drives) are much worse and host controllers usually know to cope with this, at least they won't go up in flames. *sigh*, I _love_ barrel connectors ;-) Just to wires and some 5V, chargers available all over the world on some shop that's never more than 100m away, for really few money. And receptacle could live happily besides the mini-usb. cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Andy Green wrote: |> So we should probably also want to come up from pcf50633-standby |> with charging disabled there until we can set correct parameters. | | This brings us back to the problem what we do if we have an dead | battery. (That is, < 2.5V.) | | If the charger is off, there doesn't seem to be an alternative | path to deliver power to Vsys. Thus, the PMU never lets us enter | Active (for Vsys is too low), and it will also not charge the | battery (since the charger is disabled). | | I think we have to look for a solution along the lines of setting | chgena = 1 and live with that 500mA spike until the CPU gains | control. There is probably some delay between power coming and charging starting anyway. And it should be some hundred and so ms until the CPU comes up. ~ And we don't have much choice AFAIK. Charger disabled is no problem if it's true the CPU is going to come up, it will come up and enable the charger. We need to confirm we can always get the CPU to come up on power insertion, then we are OK I think... is the "shutdown -h now" case OK, where he remains powered from laptop USB that is not validly enumerated after he shuts down but maybe he sits there off eating 500mA? It's pretty strange that "disable charger" --> "don't even power the device from USB"... does it explicitly say that anywhere or is that just what we are empirically seeing? I saw that these paths are considered part of the charger unit but not really that charging and device function are bound together so tightly. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhfog4ACgkQOjLpvpq7dMojwgCfbvi60kbu5Vl/UvQ/yRfQqGMG 8d4An1NWwoinrHehIS7QDYoqMh2Lywsj =V+KF -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
Andy Green wrote: > So we should probably also want to come up from pcf50633-standby > with charging disabled there until we can set correct parameters. This brings us back to the problem what we do if we have an dead battery. (That is, < 2.5V.) If the charger is off, there doesn't seem to be an alternative path to deliver power to Vsys. Thus, the PMU never lets us enter Active (for Vsys is too low), and it will also not charge the battery (since the charger is disabled). I think we have to look for a solution along the lines of setting chgena = 1 and live with that 500mA spike until the CPU gains control. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > No, don't think so. It's the manufacturer's way to say "set max voltage and > max current etc, before you even think about enabling charging). Reality check: in the seven PCF50633 variants Philips have specified, we have the following defaults: Variant 1, 4, 9: 500mA, charger disabled Variant 2, 3, 5: 500mA, charger enabled Variant 7: 100mA, charger enabled I just wish we had these three bits from variant 7 :) Even more, I wish NXP had given their device a little EEPROM to provide the default settings. (An MCU could help, but only once the system's made it our of Standby, since I2C is only operating in Active.) > When we've done this, manufacturer does us the favor to make this > state "sticky" so PMU will awake from backup-battery with whatever we decided > it should. And it should awake with charging nicely configured and enabled. This only applies to bits that don't reset in Standby. E.g., the current limit in MBCC7 resets in Standby, not NoPower. (All other MBC settings reset in NoPower.) > Yeah, but doesn't apply to our discussion here. We're talking about return > from low-bat / suspend, not initial wakeup from a drained backup-bat. There's a catch though: if our solution misbehaves badly after NoPower, it would mean that Neos would start to fail mysteriously after some time, when the backup battery has gone bad (due to wear or - much more likely self-discharge). > We have proven we are able to come up from defaults - that's what every > device is doing fist time it's powered up. This first power-on at the factory may be different (*) from a power-on after the device has spent half a year in some drawer, with all batteries discharged. (*) I don't know what power the fixture used at that point provides. In general, when bringing up virgin devices manually, there's a good battery in them. Also, please bear in mind that the scenario Sean McNeil confirmed is just one that includes settings you would encounter after NoPower. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: |> because you said: ''It is utterly nonsense to intentionally disable |> battery charging in any time whatsoever.'' For the pcf50633 case, I |> don't think you are ready to be so certain either, because when I look |> at MBCC1 reset state for our variant, I see it wakes up with chgena = 0, |> so the manufacturer disagrees with you. | | No, don't think so. It's the manufacturer's way to say "set max voltage and | max current etc, before you even think about enabling charging). Hey so be careful with the ''in any time whatsoever'' if you like it disabled at that time :-) | When we've done this, manufacturer does us the favor to make this | state "sticky" so PMU will awake from backup-battery with whatever we decided | it should. And it should awake with charging nicely configured and enabled. The pcf50633 does not include the intelligence to figure out the type of charger supply available (USB enumeration or 1A charger), so it is not able to deliver on coming from pcf50633-standby "charging nicely configured". What is does deliver is charging forced configured for 500mA USB supply, which is wrong, and we can't change it since that is forced set by transition to pcf50633-standby using the variant-specific data. So we should probably also want to come up from pcf50633-standby with charging disabled there until we can set correct parameters. |> |> What makes the trouble is the setting is sticky |> | that's an *option*, no trouble! |> |> Werner seems to blame chgena being sticky in suspend for the failure to |> charge issue if I read him right (and it sounds right). |> |> As for "option" you have to take care. There are many registers which |> have a notation "this register is reset in NoPower state". Because of |> the privileged position of pcf50633 in the power handling, there is a |> possible deadlock here where the default state of pcf50633 registers |> after NoPower does not suit us. And the CPU being down then, with no |> other intelligence up, we have no control over that to modify it. |> NoPower comes when we not only have no power externally or in main |> battery but the backup battery is down too. Other registers reset in |> standby. It's a maze. | Yeah, but doesn't apply to our discussion here. We're talking about return | from low-bat / suspend, not initial wakeup from a drained backup-bat. Actually we have to consider all the cases to figure out what to do for the best. |> If you look at MBCC7 in the datasheet and our variant data, there is no |> option here. In suspend mode usbdevstat gets forced to 01 == 500mA. |> chgena is sticky in suspend and set = 0 in NoPower. No option. | See above. I see above you saying it was an "option and no trouble". It isn't. |> I hope the other notes in this email make it clear we have little or no |> control over those actions, the variant decides it for us. | Nope, the variant decides about those registers that are reset on suspend, and | it decides on the way the whole PMU comes up from NoPower. We are free to set | the "sticky" registers to whatever we think is best for us. Oh well. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhfZGsACgkQOjLpvpq7dMoSuACeOIUdx6dytfz+3EZjOe4sfSxE kE4AnjAZdThwfeM3o5ZtGa7vorvzLDVU =a5Zc -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
Am Mo 23. Juni 2008 schrieb Andy Green: > Somebody in the thread at some point said: > > |> | It is utterly nonsense to intentionally disable battery charging in > |> any time > |> | whatsoever. > |> > |> In itself it's perfectly sane to tell the charger to standby if there is > |> no power coming in. > | No it isn't at all (if switching off PMU-charge-battery path is what > you're > | talking about). This function HAS TO BE ENABLED all the time (see your > next > | statement below). In the end what's the use of disabling charging when we > | have no power to do charging anyway - it will be implicitly disabled and > | comes back as soon as there is any power left over (besides powering the > | system) to do so. See PCF50633-manual! > > "In itself" means local to what I wrote... a generic charger with no > power coming in can be put to standby because what else will it do with > no power? So that is generically a sane proposition. I wrote that > because you said: ''It is utterly nonsense to intentionally disable > battery charging in any time whatsoever.'' For the pcf50633 case, I > don't think you are ready to be so certain either, because when I look > at MBCC1 reset state for our variant, I see it wakes up with chgena = 0, > so the manufacturer disagrees with you. No, don't think so. It's the manufacturer's way to say "set max voltage and max current etc, before you even think about enabling charging). When we've done this, manufacturer does us the favor to make this state "sticky" so PMU will awake from backup-battery with whatever we decided it should. And it should awake with charging nicely configured and enabled. > > |> What makes the trouble is the setting is sticky > | that's an *option*, no trouble! > > Werner seems to blame chgena being sticky in suspend for the failure to > charge issue if I read him right (and it sounds right). > > As for "option" you have to take care. There are many registers which > have a notation "this register is reset in NoPower state". Because of > the privileged position of pcf50633 in the power handling, there is a > possible deadlock here where the default state of pcf50633 registers > after NoPower does not suit us. And the CPU being down then, with no > other intelligence up, we have no control over that to modify it. > NoPower comes when we not only have no power externally or in main > battery but the backup battery is down too. Other registers reset in > standby. It's a maze. Yeah, but doesn't apply to our discussion here. We're talking about return from low-bat / suspend, not initial wakeup from a drained backup-bat. > > If you look at MBCC7 in the datasheet and our variant data, there is no > option here. In suspend mode usbdevstat gets forced to 01 == 500mA. > chgena is sticky in suspend and set = 0 in NoPower. No option. See above. > > |> there is no always-on intelligence to reassess the situation when power > |> does come > | Sure there is: inside PMU! > > ... > > |> Instead what we're left with is trying to find > |> a way through the maze of default fixed behaviours of the PMU and trying > |> to match them with what we need. > | No, we are actually building our own mace by disabling PMU-bat-charger, > | instead of simplifying things by just make (as) sure (as possible) it's > > I hope the other notes in this email make it clear we have little or no > control over those actions, the variant decides it for us. Nope, the variant decides about those registers that are reset on suspend, and it decides on the way the whole PMU comes up from NoPower. We are free to set the "sticky" registers to whatever we think is best for us. > > | I'll have a closer look in this tomorrow, to name the correct > PMU-registers > | and values we need for them with our actual GTA02-battery. > > We should be cautious about asserting mastery of the pcf50633: let's > qualify our understandings until we proved it (and proved that we proved > what we think we proved, since there are many settings floating about). > ~ It's stung me a few times with letting myself think I understood the > whole shebang only to realize I missed out on a whole layer of stuff > going on quietly in there. One thing is for sure we are at its mercy > when no intelligence is up to control it, the pcf50633's default > settings are master of our device. We have proven we are able to come up from defaults - that's what every device is doing fist time it's powered up. We may easily reset to defaults by draining backup-bat. So where is the big caveat to meddle around with the sticky settings of charger? But a agree with you we urgently need to qualify our understandings and check and recheck what we should set this stuff to. We could end up in a situation otherwise, where we erecommend to user: "wait a year or two until backup is drained, then buy a new main battery, boot and reflash" ;-) /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > Well I didn't look at this code yet, have no idea what it's actually doing > (probe for 47k-ID?). It waits until we either detect the 47k ID or until a USB upstream signals that we can draw 500mA. > Anyway, until this function is telling us it's save to draw more than 100mA, > we have to limit our current from USB, and we need to run the CPU with this > current to execute the function mentioned by you. Then we are steady to boot. Yup, that's exactly what's happening. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
Andy Green wrote: > If you look at MBCC7 in the datasheet and our variant data, there is no > option here. In suspend mode usbdevstat gets forced to 01 == 500mA. > chgena is sticky in suspend and set = 0 in NoPower. No option. s/suspend/standby/ :-) For the benefit of the readers on the list, a brief summary of the states we have here: The PMU has four states: - NoPower (all power sources gone, including the backup battery) - Save (backup battery is present, nothing else is) - Standby (we have power, but we don't supply the system) - Active (we have power and supply the system) We also have system-wide states, namely - "off" (PMU is in Standby or Save), - "suspend" (PMU is in Active, but the regulator powering the CPU core is turned off) - "on" (PMU is in Active, the CPU core is powered) In "suspend" and "on", we can also enable/disable regulators supplying some of the subsystems. E.g., we can power down uSD/MMC if it's not used. I put the names of the system-wide states in double quotes because we never "officially" named these states. NoPower is an interesting state, since we should never enter it, except if the backup battery fails. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge / chgena = 0 by default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: |> | It is utterly nonsense to intentionally disable battery charging in |> any time |> | whatsoever. |> |> In itself it's perfectly sane to tell the charger to standby if there is |> no power coming in. | No it isn't at all (if switching off PMU-charge-battery path is what you're | talking about). This function HAS TO BE ENABLED all the time (see your next | statement below). In the end what's the use of disabling charging when we | have no power to do charging anyway - it will be implicitly disabled and | comes back as soon as there is any power left over (besides powering the | system) to do so. See PCF50633-manual! "In itself" means local to what I wrote... a generic charger with no power coming in can be put to standby because what else will it do with no power? So that is generically a sane proposition. I wrote that because you said: ''It is utterly nonsense to intentionally disable battery charging in any time whatsoever.'' For the pcf50633 case, I don't think you are ready to be so certain either, because when I look at MBCC1 reset state for our variant, I see it wakes up with chgena = 0, so the manufacturer disagrees with you. |> What makes the trouble is the setting is sticky | that's an *option*, no trouble! Werner seems to blame chgena being sticky in suspend for the failure to charge issue if I read him right (and it sounds right). As for "option" you have to take care. There are many registers which have a notation "this register is reset in NoPower state". Because of the privileged position of pcf50633 in the power handling, there is a possible deadlock here where the default state of pcf50633 registers after NoPower does not suit us. And the CPU being down then, with no other intelligence up, we have no control over that to modify it. NoPower comes when we not only have no power externally or in main battery but the backup battery is down too. Other registers reset in standby. It's a maze. If you look at MBCC7 in the datasheet and our variant data, there is no option here. In suspend mode usbdevstat gets forced to 01 == 500mA. chgena is sticky in suspend and set = 0 in NoPower. No option. |> there is no always-on intelligence to reassess the situation when power |> does come | Sure there is: inside PMU! ... |> Instead what we're left with is trying to find |> a way through the maze of default fixed behaviours of the PMU and trying |> to match them with what we need. | No, we are actually building our own mace by disabling PMU-bat-charger, | instead of simplifying things by just make (as) sure (as possible) it's I hope the other notes in this email make it clear we have little or no control over those actions, the variant decides it for us. | I'll have a closer look in this tomorrow, to name the correct PMU-registers | and values we need for them with our actual GTA02-battery. We should be cautious about asserting mastery of the pcf50633: let's qualify our understandings until we proved it (and proved that we proved what we think we proved, since there are many settings floating about). ~ It's stung me a few times with letting myself think I understood the whole shebang only to realize I missed out on a whole layer of stuff going on quietly in there. One thing is for sure we are at its mercy when no intelligence is up to control it, the pcf50633's default settings are master of our device. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhfTOkACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqNYACeP9j4A9T84plLrN/qpRS5bdqZ 2TEAoJIlWUpoB79HYSDWwBzVnixCYEtx =CMOr -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Sean McNeil wrote: |> I think you have this well understood. It does exactly as you predicted |> and will not power up for me with USB if I follow your procedure. | | Yeah, finally one thing that works as expected ! | | Now I wonder why you and Andy seem to have no trouble at all getting | the GTA02 to run from USB power alone, while mine usually dies within | seconds (and without any major drop of the voltage on the USB cable) | if I pop the battery ... That was several months ago, U-Boot (at least, operation during U-Boot phase of boot) has not allowed that since then. But that can work, since I used it like that for some time, and subsequently for many weeks my daily usage was to give it a battery only to get it through U-Boot... and it isn't the immediate startup that I get it through like that either, but some crisis it needs it for some seconds into U-Boot action. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhfR3UACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqKkgCgldIyO0njGAp2QVS7VLYRuTWy TKoAnRd6kdcLADCFSsy2r6s98qm6ZGN2 =SSv+ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Am Mo 23. Juni 2008 schrieb Werner Almesberger: > Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > Yep, you got it. That's what I say with "when we don't obey the specs...". > > But which spec would we be violating ? If there's nothing connected, > nothing happens anyway. If there is a USB upstream device or the > adapter, we're allowed to draw 100mA without the need for further > clarification. Yep > > So all we have to do is make sure the power we draw until we're in a > better position to decide on the system's fate doesn't exceed 80mA > (this is what the 100mA limit effectlively translates to, see the > PCF60633 manual, table 91, page 75). ACK > > Since our system currently exceeds this 80mA envelope, we do wait for > an indication that we have a power source that can (probably) give us > what we need. It's in u-boot, board/neo1973/gta02/gta02.c, function > wait_for_power. Well I didn't look at this code yet, have no idea what it's actually doing (probe for 47k-ID?). Anyway, until this function is telling us it's save to draw more than 100mA, we have to limit our current from USB, and we need to run the CPU with this current to execute the function mentioned by you. Then we are steady to boot. > > Note that this isn't bullet-proof. We could do better by running the > CPU at a lower clock speed. Also, given the excessive current drawn > by the GTA02v5 LEDs, the LED that's being blinked as an indication > in wait_for_power will probably bring down the system by pushing it > over the 80-100mA current limit. Agree, think we have the same idea of how stuff should work. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Andy Green wrote: > Well I'm just off to bed so I guess I have to study the datasheet vs the > code tomorrow, but can't it be that the problems come from usbdevstat = > 11? It's that which kills USB -> SYS specifically which maybe is not > what chgena = 0 does. Setting MBCC7.usbdevstat to binary 11 would also kill all paths, yes. However, MBCC7 resets to 500mA in Standby, so we should not have a problem with this. We could enable the USB->SYS path by setting MBCC8.usbenasus = 1. MBCC8 resets in NoPower, so it would be "sticky" as long as the backup battery doesn't fail. But USB->SYS doesn't seem to be current-limited in this case, so this mode is probably not a great idea. A big problem with MBCC7 is that, if we were enabled the charger but didn't do anything else (such was wake up when USB is plugged in), we'd have the PMU charge in a 500mA configuration, violating the 100mA limit. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Sean McNeil wrote: > I think you have this well understood. It does exactly as you predicted > and will not power up for me with USB if I follow your procedure. Yeah, finally one thing that works as expected ! Now I wonder why you and Andy seem to have no trouble at all getting the GTA02 to run from USB power alone, while mine usually dies within seconds (and without any major drop of the voltage on the USB cable) if I pop the battery ... Thanks ! - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > Yep, you got it. That's what I say with "when we don't obey the specs...". But which spec would we be violating ? If there's nothing connected, nothing happens anyway. If there is a USB upstream device or the adapter, we're allowed to draw 100mA without the need for further clarification. So all we have to do is make sure the power we draw until we're in a better position to decide on the system's fate doesn't exceed 80mA (this is what the 100mA limit effectlively translates to, see the PCF60633 manual, table 91, page 75). Since our system currently exceeds this 80mA envelope, we do wait for an indication that we have a power source that can (probably) give us what we need. It's in u-boot, board/neo1973/gta02/gta02.c, function wait_for_power. Note that this isn't bullet-proof. We could do better by running the CPU at a lower clock speed. Also, given the excessive current drawn by the GTA02v5 LEDs, the LED that's being blinked as an indication in wait_for_power will probably bring down the system by pushing it over the 80-100mA current limit. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > NO, it *should NOT* be turned off. Maybe I got it wrong, and you say "we > accidentally turned it off by then". What I meant is: under these circumstances, what the system currently does it to turn the charger off, which then explains the rest of the (undesirable) behaviour. No need to get excited ;-) - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Am Fr 20. Juni 2008 schrieb Werner Almesberger: > If you drained your battery while running Linux, you probably didn't > have USB connected at that time. This in turn means that the internal > charger logic in the PMU should be turned off. NO, it *should NOT* be turned off. Maybe I got it wrong, and you say "we accidentally turned it off by then". There's NO REASON to turn charging logic off when battery drain, when usb-power is removed or on *any* other event except bat-overtemp or Vbat-crit-high (never could happen). See my other post. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Am So 22. Juni 2008 schrieb Werner Almesberger: > Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > But we could make possible to boot from wallcharger if we don't give a > > s**t > > on the usb-specs. > > By the time you've figured out that you have a charger, you have enough > running that you might as well boot ;-) Yep, you got it. That's what I say with "when we don't obey the specs...". We have to assume there's a charger before we are able to boot to figure out. Otherwise no boot without battery. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Am So 22. Juni 2008 schrieb Andy Green: > Somebody in the thread at some point said: > | Am So 22. Juni 2008 schrieb Werner Almesberger: > |> Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > |>> I think battery charging *never* may be turned off. > |> That's my understanding so far as well. What bothers me is that I can't > |> the device to show the symptoms I would expect in the various states, > |> both good and bad symptoms. > > | That's when I made a comment to the effect that we probably don't care > about > | our battery the way we should, some time ago. > | Charging of battery has to be autonomous by PCF506xx, and all we need > to care > | about is to ENABLE it, and to *set the right currents and voltages* > for PMU's > | charger (and handle errors / monitor charging state). This has to be > | done/redone (as often and) as early in boot as possible, to guarantee > there > | never will be set a too high max voltage (would kill battery) or charging > | disabled (also by any error-condition [e.g. overvoltage] which has to be > | handled and reset) which would lead to the deadlock Steve faces now. > | It is utterly nonsense to intentionally disable battery charging in > any time > | whatsoever. > > In itself it's perfectly sane to tell the charger to standby if there is > no power coming in. No it isn't at all (if switching off PMU-charge-battery path is what you're talking about). This function HAS TO BE ENABLED all the time (see your next statement below). In the end what's the use of disabling charging when we have no power to do charging anyway - it will be implicitly disabled and comes back as soon as there is any power left over (besides powering the system) to do so. See PCF50633-manual! Battery management is one of the main functions of PMU PCF506xx, and only of PMU. The CPU just has to set up the registers to meet the actual battery (and handle "emergency stops" asserted by PMU when things went wrong badly in a way that normally mustn't happen and thus is beyond PMU's scope). Nothing more, nothing less, nothing else. Period. > What makes the trouble is the setting is sticky that's an *option*, no trouble! > and > there is no always-on intelligence to reassess the situation when power > does come Sure there is: inside PMU! > (and according to what Werner just wrote, we can't make the > CPU do that job either). > Instead what we're left with is trying to find > a way through the maze of default fixed behaviours of the PMU and trying > to match them with what we need. No, we are actually building our own mace by disabling PMU-bat-charger, instead of simplifying things by just make (as) sure (as possible) it's *allways* on. I agree there's quite some "maze" in setting up the PMU when we start up system (CPU core voltage etc), but REenabling battery charging surely isn't any part of this, in the first place. I repeat: Charging stops automatically (on Vmax). It resumes automatically (if Vbat > On the charging settings for the battery, it seems to use a constant > voltage mode for at least the latter part of the charging, because if > you hook up an ammeter you will see the current decreases visibly second > by second as the charger needs to push less and less current in to keep > the charging voltage up. So this is pretty adaptive. Exactly. We have to take care this constant voltage accommodates our battery, and this is the default state we are supposed to and actually should keep the PMU in, NOT disable charging all together. > The temperature > of the cell never goes above 30 degrees here, you would expect to be > toasting marshmallows on the thing if there was problem? The only problem is: when we (that is PMU) don't care about max voltage *and* min voltage (=guarantee correct settings for these PMU-reg values, by setting them as frequently as appropriate), the battery's protection circuit will do. This should **NEVER** happen, cause it's one step from fireworks, and it introduces the problems Werner mentioned on another post in this thread recently. And to answer Werner's question: no, the battery internal protection circuit will reset from undervoltage ONLY when some *charging* happens, no way to reset itself by chemical recovery or sth. But in the first place, this internal prot NEVER should trigger, it's PMU's damn task to stop discharge *before* this happens. This is what I mentioned with "we don't treat right our battery". I'll have a closer look in this tomorrow, to name the correct PMU-registers and values we need for them with our actual GTA02-battery. cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: |> ~ Or all of this only happens if we disable charging from the previous |> session? | | If we disable charging, then - according to my understanding of the | documentation - we're certainly doomed, since there's no way to get | power to Vsys. Well I'm just off to bed so I guess I have to study the datasheet vs the code tomorrow, but can't it be that the problems come from usbdevstat = 11? It's that which kills USB -> SYS specifically which maybe is not what chgena = 0 does. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhe0BUACgkQOjLpvpq7dMomBQCfayUWfY/orlj/95vJVOcu94YO WJEAn1TAXmh2clvc8NcJLdKbPWlKEDtV =NB3J -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Andy Green wrote: > You're saying that you don't think we can ever bring the CPU up at all > if you have a battery in there that is < 2.5V? I'm not sure. My understanding of the PCF50633 manual says that, if we enable the charger, we should be fine. My experimental results don't quite agree with this. There's one catch: if the battery drops low, the internal protection circuit turns off power completely. If you tickle it a bit by supplying external power, it instantly snaps out of this mode and you get battery power again for a bit. What I don't know is if any internal processes of the battery (i.e., chemical recovery) could cause a transition as well. So far, I haven't seen this happen, but I didn't do any long-term experiments. > ~ Or all of this only happens if we disable charging from the previous > session? If we disable charging, then - according to my understanding of the documentation - we're certainly doomed, since there's no way to get power to Vsys. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Andy Green wrote: > Instead what we're left with is trying to find > a way through the maze of default fixed behaviours of the PMU and trying > to match them with what we need. That describes the experience quite accurately ;-) > On the charging settings for the battery, it seems to use a constant > voltage mode for at least the latter part of the charging, Yes, there are three phases: - qualification, where it tries to find out if the battery is any good - constant current - constant voltage There's a nice diagram in the PCF50606 manual, figure 41, on page 62. If you skip the qualification, you can just use a lab supply as charger. Very convenient ;-) - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > to guarantee there never will be set a too high max voltage (would kill > battery) The battery's internal protection circuit should prevent the worst from happening here, as long as you don't go over 12V. (Applies to both GTA01 and GTA02.) > different topic: > Booting from USB OTOH is mere impossible, as long as we obey the specs. What would prevent us from staying below that 100mA limit ? I mean in general, not with the current implementation that brings up the LCM and all that. > But we could make possible to boot from wallcharger if we don't give a s**t > on the usb-specs. By the time you've figured out that you have a charger, you have enough running that you might as well boot ;-) - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Werner Almesberger wrote: steve wrote: Maybe I did get a flakely phone. It's not so easy :-) The PMU state depends on what the PMU did the last time you had full power. Many internal settings only return to defaults in the so-called NoPower state, which means that all power sources are gone, including the backup battery. (The small "button" cell near the AUX button.) So if there is still juice in the backup battery (which should generally be the case), your PMU can be in a number of different states even after you cycle USB and main battery. If you drained your battery while running Linux, you probably didn't have USB connected at that time. This in turn means that the internal charger logic in the PMU should be turned off. Sean, it should be interesting to see if you can still power on from USB alone if you first put in a good battery, boot into Linux, disconnect USB, and then eject the battery. I think you have this well understood. It does exactly as you predicted and will not power up for me with USB if I follow your procedure.
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Andy Green wrote: |> This will also solve the "no charging when PMU left on its own if |> charger off was the last order" issue as a side effect. | | That's one of the things I'm not convinced about. If the PMU manual is | to be believed, there's no active current path to the battery or Vsys | in that state. Well, powering up on insertion would certainly solve the problems of charger indication (if we booted) and charging (if even U-Boot gets to run) alright. The question is if we can actually get the CPU running in all cases. | Furthermore, if the battery is below the Vsys detection threshold | voltage, Vth(sysmin) = 2.5V, and there is no other current path to Vsys, | the system shouldn't come up for whatever reason. | | Heh, just tried that setup, and this time it really didn't come up when | I plugged in USB. Finally something works as expected ;-) You're saying that you don't think we can ever bring the CPU up at all if you have a battery in there that is < 2.5V? No matter what buttons you're pressing? Or just auto start from USB insertion is then broken? ~ Or all of this only happens if we disable charging from the previous session? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEUEARECAAYFAkhevCkACgkQOjLpvpq7dMonLwCYu7bCwj35vXS8yRw5iq9WvOuA ZACfWJ3yo/vFntl2cDIrO/qkom0A+Pk= =n+Mt -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Am So 22. Juni 2008 schrieb Werner Almesberger: |> Joerg Reisenweber wrote: |>> I think battery charging *never* may be turned off. |> That's my understanding so far as well. What bothers me is that I can't |> the device to show the symptoms I would expect in the various states, |> both good and bad symptoms. | That's when I made a comment to the effect that we probably don't care about | our battery the way we should, some time ago. | Charging of battery has to be autonomous by PCF506xx, and all we need to care | about is to ENABLE it, and to *set the right currents and voltages* for PMU's | charger (and handle errors / monitor charging state). This has to be | done/redone (as often and) as early in boot as possible, to guarantee there | never will be set a too high max voltage (would kill battery) or charging | disabled (also by any error-condition [e.g. overvoltage] which has to be | handled and reset) which would lead to the deadlock Steve faces now. | It is utterly nonsense to intentionally disable battery charging in any time | whatsoever. In itself it's perfectly sane to tell the charger to standby if there is no power coming in. What makes the trouble is the setting is sticky and there is no always-on intelligence to reassess the situation when power does come (and according to what Werner just wrote, we can't make the CPU do that job either). Instead what we're left with is trying to find a way through the maze of default fixed behaviours of the PMU and trying to match them with what we need. On the charging settings for the battery, it seems to use a constant voltage mode for at least the latter part of the charging, because if you hook up an ammeter you will see the current decreases visibly second by second as the charger needs to push less and less current in to keep the charging voltage up. So this is pretty adaptive. The temperature of the cell never goes above 30 degrees here, you would expect to be toasting marshmallows on the thing if there was problem? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkheutsACgkQOjLpvpq7dMohBACfe17w19Iy3LZgy4p6bQkgUgMW eCwAnRCw+D4xAOVbyfTKl/GCTiUWmr2P =ZM94 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Andy Green wrote: > This will also solve the "no charging when PMU left on its own if > charger off was the last order" issue as a side effect. That's one of the things I'm not convinced about. If the PMU manual is to be believed, there's no active current path to the battery or Vsys in that state. Furthermore, if the battery is below the Vsys detection threshold voltage, Vth(sysmin) = 2.5V, and there is no other current path to Vsys, the system shouldn't come up for whatever reason. Heh, just tried that setup, and this time it really didn't come up when I plugged in USB. Finally something works as expected ;-) There's the procedure: - make sure MBCC1.chgena isn't set (e.g., disconnect USB, power up, then remove the battery) - discharge a battery through a resistor until the internal protection circuit cuts it off. This happens around 2.5V with GTA02 batteries, 2.2V with GTA01 batteries. - insert the battery - plug in USB Steve, can you please measure the voltage of your "dead" battery ? Steve, if your battery reads 0V, there's something you could try: - find a power source that delivers roughly 4-5V - briefly (for a second or so), connect that power source to the battery, such that + connects to + and - to -, i.e., like jump-starting a car. With a little luck, this little jolt will have convinced the protection circuit that the battery can stand some more use, and the battery will now deliver >2.5V, enough to bring up the Neo and charge from USB. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Am So 22. Juni 2008 schrieb Werner Almesberger: > Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > I think battery charging *never* may be turned off. > > That's my understanding so far as well. What bothers me is that I can't > the device to show the symptoms I would expect in the various states, > both good and bad symptoms. > > - Werner > That's when I made a comment to the effect that we probably don't care about our battery the way we should, some time ago. Charging of battery has to be autonomous by PCF506xx, and all we need to care about is to ENABLE it, and to *set the right currents and voltages* for PMU's charger (and handle errors / monitor charging state). This has to be done/redone (as often and) as early in boot as possible, to guarantee there never will be set a too high max voltage (would kill battery) or charging disabled (also by any error-condition [e.g. overvoltage] which has to be handled and reset) which would lead to the deadlock Steve faces now. It is utterly nonsense to intentionally disable battery charging in any time whatsoever. different topic: Booting from USB OTOH is mere impossible, as long as we obey the specs. We are supposed to draw no more than 100mA from USB until CPU is up and does some sophisticated negotiations/probes to increase the maximum allowable USB-current set (again) in PCF506xx registers. We have to guarantee there is 100mA set whenever the CPU is down and not able to do these probes - or we forget about the specs and won't be off much better because even then the *host* will not forget about them (at least on win-OS as I understand it). But we could make possible to boot from wallcharger if we don't give a s**t on the usb-specs. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > I think battery charging *never* may be turned off. That's my understanding so far as well. What bothers me is that I can't the device to show the symptoms I would expect in the various states, both good and bad symptoms. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Am Do 19. Juni 2008 schrieb Werner Almesberger: > Sean McNeil wrote: > > You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. > > Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 samples) > to run from USB power for more than a few seconds. > > Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the > charger if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting > while it has any power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the > charger happens to be turned off, USB power is simply ignored. I think battery charging *never* may be turned off. There is no valid reason to do this. Set max bat-voltage correctly and let PCF50633 handle the end of charging. Instead reset max USB-current to 100mA and *enable* charging on every occasion (u-boot, power-interrupts, just *every* occasion) if there's not wallcharger detected or 500mA negotiated actually. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
RE: My Gta02s wont charge
Ah, problem is getting a good battery. Local stores don't carry battery chargers. -Original Message- From: Joerg Reisenweber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 10:52 AM To: openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Cc: steve; 'Sean McNeil' Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge A sure fix should be: insert "good" battery, attach wall-charger, boot all the way to system, replace "good" by drained battery *without* switching off or suspending system. /j Am So 22. Juni 2008 schrieb steve: > Haha the vulcan mind meld. I will try it > > > -Original Message- > From: Sean McNeil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:17 AM > To: steve > Cc: 'Werner Almesberger'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org > Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge > > Yes, I can run off usb without the a battery. But if I have a drained > battery, I cannot. Seems like charging pulls too much power so I > cannot run.What I had to do at one time was pull battery and charger > out. Hold down the aux key. Put battery in. Put usb in. hold down the power key. > release aux key. wait for menu. When I did this the battery starts to > charge. > > steve wrote: > > Na, mine wont run off USB power. I'll double check on a 2nd computer. > > My unit is pre production, but I know guys have done battery drain > > tests With no problems. So, scratches head > > > > I tried with the battery in, battery out. Sean, can you run yours > > while plugged into usb with the battery removed? > > You have a phone from the same batch I have. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:24 PM > > To: Sean McNeil > > Cc: steve; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org > > Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge > > > > Sean McNeil wrote: > > > >> You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. > >> > > > > Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 > > samples) to run from USB power for more than a few seconds. > > > > Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the > > charger if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting > > while it has any power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the > > charger happens to be turned off, USB power is simply ignored. > > > > So far the theory. I've tried to actually confirm that behaviour (so > > that I could observe an improvement after changing the logic), but > > only got more or less random results, with the system occasionally > > not charging when it should, and (quite often) happily powering up > > when I didn't expect it to :-( > > > > So there seems to be more going on than meets the eye. > > > > - Werner > > > > > > > > >
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Am Do 19. Juni 2008 schrieb Werner Almesberger: |> Sean McNeil wrote: |>> You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. |> Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 samples) |> to run from USB power for more than a few seconds. |> |> Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the |> charger if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting |> while it has any power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the |> charger happens to be turned off, USB power is simply ignored. | | I think battery charging *never* may be turned off. There is no valid reason | to do this. Set max bat-voltage correctly and let PCF50633 handle the end of | charging. | Instead reset max USB-current to 100mA and *enable* charging on every occasion | (u-boot, power-interrupts, just *every* occasion) if there's not wallcharger | detected or 500mA negotiated actually. "It was decided" that we want to power on if we are off and there is live USB power arriving (== "insertion"). This is to solve the charging indication while off issue, we just make ourselves "on" all the way into X. This will also solve the "no charging when PMU left on its own if charger off was the last order" issue as a side effect. What is meant to happen if you have USB power and you tell the device to shutdown -h now I dunno. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEUEARECAAYFAkhelUQACgkQOjLpvpq7dMrPRACYp3a2t5ApwdhSTJeMga8QU07I RgCdEXOfGT6EF4tie4aW74Vei0b3PAM= =f0fk -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
A sure fix should be: insert "good" battery, attach wall-charger, boot all the way to system, replace "good" by drained battery *without* switching off or suspending system. /j Am So 22. Juni 2008 schrieb steve: > Haha the vulcan mind meld. I will try it > > > -Original Message- > From: Sean McNeil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:17 AM > To: steve > Cc: 'Werner Almesberger'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org > Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge > > Yes, I can run off usb without the a battery. But if I have a drained > battery, I cannot. Seems like charging pulls too much power so I cannot > run.What I had to do at one time was pull battery and charger out. Hold down > the aux key. Put battery in. Put usb in. hold down the power key. > release aux key. wait for menu. When I did this the battery starts to > charge. > > steve wrote: > > Na, mine wont run off USB power. I'll double check on a 2nd computer. > > My unit is pre production, but I know guys have done battery drain > > tests With no problems. So, scratches head > > > > I tried with the battery in, battery out. Sean, can you run yours > > while plugged into usb with the battery removed? > > You have a phone from the same batch I have. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:24 PM > > To: Sean McNeil > > Cc: steve; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org > > Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge > > > > Sean McNeil wrote: > > > >> You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. > >> > > > > Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 samples) > > to run from USB power for more than a few seconds. > > > > Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the > > charger if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting > > while it has any power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the > > charger happens to be turned off, USB power is simply ignored. > > > > So far the theory. I've tried to actually confirm that behaviour (so > > that I could observe an improvement after changing the logic), but > > only got more or less random results, with the system occasionally not > > charging when it should, and (quite often) happily powering up when I > > didn't expect it to :-( > > > > So there seems to be more going on than meets the eye. > > > > - Werner > > > > > > > > > signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
RE: My Gta02s wont charge
Haha the vulcan mind meld. I will try it -Original Message- From: Sean McNeil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:17 AM To: steve Cc: 'Werner Almesberger'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge Yes, I can run off usb without the a battery. But if I have a drained battery, I cannot. Seems like charging pulls too much power so I cannot run.What I had to do at one time was pull battery and charger out. Hold down the aux key. Put battery in. Put usb in. hold down the power key. release aux key. wait for menu. When I did this the battery starts to charge. steve wrote: > Na, mine wont run off USB power. I'll double check on a 2nd computer. > My unit is pre production, but I know guys have done battery drain > tests With no problems. So, scratches head > > I tried with the battery in, battery out. Sean, can you run yours > while plugged into usb with the battery removed? > You have a phone from the same batch I have. > > -Original Message- > From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:24 PM > To: Sean McNeil > Cc: steve; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org > Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge > > Sean McNeil wrote: > >> You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. >> > > Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 samples) > to run from USB power for more than a few seconds. > > Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the > charger if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting > while it has any power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the > charger happens to be turned off, USB power is simply ignored. > > So far the theory. I've tried to actually confirm that behaviour (so > that I could observe an improvement after changing the logic), but > only got more or less random results, with the system occasionally not > charging when it should, and (quite often) happily powering up when I > didn't expect it to :-( > > So there seems to be more going on than meets the eye. > > - Werner > > >
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
see http://quickstart.openmoko.org/ Chapter 12. Technical details on Charger Detection which is a rather comprehensive and correct description. Only our GTA02 charger says it can do [EMAIL PROTECTED], not 1A as mentioned in this doc (don't care though) /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
steve wrote: > Maybe I did get a flakely phone. It's not so easy :-) The PMU state depends on what the PMU did the last time you had full power. Many internal settings only return to defaults in the so-called NoPower state, which means that all power sources are gone, including the backup battery. (The small "button" cell near the AUX button.) So if there is still juice in the backup battery (which should generally be the case), your PMU can be in a number of different states even after you cycle USB and main battery. If you drained your battery while running Linux, you probably didn't have USB connected at that time. This in turn means that the internal charger logic in the PMU should be turned off. Sean, it should be interesting to see if you can still power on from USB alone if you first put in a good battery, boot into Linux, disconnect USB, and then eject the battery. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Yes, I can run off usb without the a battery. But if I have a drained battery, I cannot. Seems like charging pulls too much power so I cannot run.What I had to do at one time was pull battery and charger out. Hold down the aux key. Put battery in. Put usb in. hold down the power key. release aux key. wait for menu. When I did this the battery starts to charge. steve wrote: Na, mine wont run off USB power. I'll double check on a 2nd computer. My unit is pre production, but I know guys have done battery drain tests With no problems. So, scratches head I tried with the battery in, battery out. Sean, can you run yours while plugged into usb with the battery removed? You have a phone from the same batch I have. -Original Message- From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:24 PM To: Sean McNeil Cc: steve; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge Sean McNeil wrote: You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 samples) to run from USB power for more than a few seconds. Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the charger if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting while it has any power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the charger happens to be turned off, USB power is simply ignored. So far the theory. I've tried to actually confirm that behaviour (so that I could observe an improvement after changing the logic), but only got more or less random results, with the system occasionally not charging when it should, and (quite often) happily powering up when I didn't expect it to :-( So there seems to be more going on than meets the eye. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Try USB-charger. Depending on your computer/OS, you may get no more than 100mA of initial USB-power from a USB-host (500mA have to be negotiated, FR has to be started already to negotiate this), which clearly isn't enough to start FR. Charger delivers up to 2A unconditionally, this should suffice to start FR. /j Am Fr 20. Juni 2008 schrieb steve: > Na, mine wont run off USB power. I'll double check on a 2nd computer. > My unit is pre production, but I know guys have done battery drain tests > With no problems. So, scratches head > > I tried with the battery in, battery out. Sean, can you run yours while > plugged into usb with the battery removed? > You have a phone from the same batch I have. > > -Original Message- > From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:24 PM > To: Sean McNeil > Cc: steve; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org > Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge > > Sean McNeil wrote: > > You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. > > Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 samples) to run > from USB power for more than a few seconds. > > Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the charger > if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting while it has any > power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the charger happens to be > turned off, USB power is simply ignored. > > So far the theory. I've tried to actually confirm that behaviour (so that I > could observe an improvement after changing the logic), but only got more or > less random results, with the system occasionally not charging when it > should, and (quite often) happily powering up when I didn't expect it to :-( > > So there seems to be more going on than meets the eye. > > - Werner > > > signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
RE: My Gta02s wont charge
I havent placed a different battery in the phone. Will do that. I tried running without the battery. No joy. But I am pretty sure micheal and I tested that before on the other phones we got. Maybe I did get a flakely phone. -Original Message- From: Sean McNeil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:18 PM To: steve Cc: 'Andy Green'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge Hi Steve, How are you determining that it is the battery not getting a charge as opposed to the phone not powering up? Are you placing another battery in the phone and that one works? Maybe the battery is charging but the phone will not power up. Can you see a device instantiated on the laptop when you plug in the phone? Are you holding the power key down for a long time or just pushing and quickly releasing? You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. steve wrote: > When I got the phone it had a charge. > > It worked. Continued to take a charge. When I let it drain to ZERO > > Then wont charge. > > -Original Message- > From: Andy Green [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:57 AM > To: steve > Cc: 'Joerg Reisenweber'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org > Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge > > Somebody in the thread at some point said: > | Ah ok. > | > | Well I had two Neos GtA02 # 86 and I think #72. > | > | I checked them both out when I got them and they both worked fine, > | made calls functioned properly. > | > | After testing for a couple days I turned both phones off. > | > | Then I had a customer who needed a phone for his engineers so I > | figured, I'll give him one of mine. > | > | So I went to charge it. USB laptop. No charge. Next day I try > | factory charger #1, wall socket. No charge > > So to be clear the phone never really powered up at all during all > this, after the initial running out of juice? > > -Andy
RE: My Gta02s wont charge
Na, mine wont run off USB power. I'll double check on a 2nd computer. My unit is pre production, but I know guys have done battery drain tests With no problems. So, scratches head I tried with the battery in, battery out. Sean, can you run yours while plugged into usb with the battery removed? You have a phone from the same batch I have. -Original Message- From: Werner Almesberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:24 PM To: Sean McNeil Cc: steve; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge Sean McNeil wrote: > You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 samples) to run from USB power for more than a few seconds. Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the charger if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting while it has any power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the charger happens to be turned off, USB power is simply ignored. So far the theory. I've tried to actually confirm that behaviour (so that I could observe an improvement after changing the logic), but only got more or less random results, with the system occasionally not charging when it should, and (quite often) happily powering up when I didn't expect it to :-( So there seems to be more going on than meets the eye. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Sean McNeil wrote: > You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. Some do, some don't. E.g., I never got any GTA02 (out of 1-2 samples) to run from USB power for more than a few seconds. Regarding charging, the big issue seems to be that we turn off the charger if we don't have USB power. The PMU remembers that setting while it has any power at all. Thus, if the battery is empty and the charger happens to be turned off, USB power is simply ignored. So far the theory. I've tried to actually confirm that behaviour (so that I could observe an improvement after changing the logic), but only got more or less random results, with the system occasionally not charging when it should, and (quite often) happily powering up when I didn't expect it to :-( So there seems to be more going on than meets the eye. - Werner
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Hi Steve, How are you determining that it is the battery not getting a charge as opposed to the phone not powering up? Are you placing another battery in the phone and that one works? Maybe the battery is charging but the phone will not power up. Can you see a device instantiated on the laptop when you plug in the phone? Are you holding the power key down for a long time or just pushing and quickly releasing? You do not need a battery to run the phone. It will run off USB power. steve wrote: When I got the phone it had a charge. It worked. Continued to take a charge. When I let it drain to ZERO Then wont charge. -Original Message- From: Andy Green [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:57 AM To: steve Cc: 'Joerg Reisenweber'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Ah ok. | | Well I had two Neos GtA02 # 86 and I think #72. | | I checked them both out when I got them and they both worked fine, | made calls functioned properly. | | After testing for a couple days I turned both phones off. | | Then I had a customer who needed a phone for his engineers so I | figured, I'll give him one of mine. | | So I went to charge it. USB laptop. No charge. Next day I try factory | charger #1, wall socket. No charge So to be clear the phone never really powered up at all during all this, after the initial running out of juice? -Andy
RE: My Gta02s wont charge
When I got the phone it had a charge. It worked. Continued to take a charge. When I let it drain to ZERO Then wont charge. -Original Message- From: Andy Green [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:57 AM To: steve Cc: 'Joerg Reisenweber'; openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Ah ok. | | Well I had two Neos GtA02 # 86 and I think #72. | | I checked them both out when I got them and they both worked fine, | made calls functioned properly. | | After testing for a couple days I turned both phones off. | | Then I had a customer who needed a phone for his engineers so I | figured, I'll give him one of mine. | | So I went to charge it. USB laptop. No charge. Next day I try factory | charger #1, wall socket. No charge So to be clear the phone never really powered up at all during all this, after the initial running out of juice? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhYv8IACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqdFACeLdi31GupbKL3zNMG0E0lD7LI ejYAnjxzHySl1ptUx02MRXbLQWnm28Gu =wh9X -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Ah ok. | | Well I had two Neos GtA02 # 86 and I think #72. | | I checked them both out when I got them and they both worked fine, made | calls functioned properly. | | After testing for a couple days I turned both phones off. | | Then I had a customer who needed a phone for his engineers so I figured, | I'll give him one of mine. | | So I went to charge it. USB laptop. No charge. Next day I try factory | charger #1, wall socket. No charge So to be clear the phone never really powered up at all during all this, after the initial running out of juice? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhYv8IACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqdFACeLdi31GupbKL3zNMG0E0lD7LI ejYAnjxzHySl1ptUx02MRXbLQWnm28Gu =wh9X -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Steve, Nokia batteries BL-4C, BL-5C and BL-6C should all work fine in both GTA01 and GTA02. Also any clones of those batteries (we tested several, all worked). Additionally, try to get an external battery charger (again, because of the Nokia compatibility it should be easy to get one, look for BL-5C external charger or so). I believe we still may have a bug where we cannot charge batteries from a very deep discharge in the phone. Not even via the official Openmoko charger in the box. People are hunting down this bug right now. Please let me know whether using a new Nokia battery, or charging with an external charger helps you. Best, Wolfgang On Jun 18, 2008, at 9:13 AM, steve wrote: Ah ok. Well I had two Neos GtA02 # 86 and I think #72. I checked them both out when I got them and they both worked fine, made calls functioned properly. After testing for a couple days I turned both phones off. Then I had a customer who needed a phone for his engineers so I figured, I'll give him one of mine. So I went to charge it. USB laptop. No charge. Next day I try factory charger #1, wall socket. No charge Switch wall sockets. No charge. Switch to razr charger ( 850ma) no charge. No nothing. I reseat the battery Try factory charger #2. nuthing. So, I just sent it to the customer and figured I will dump the Problem in michaels lap ( some friend steve) So, phone number #86. same thing. I have an old GTA01 battery that I can try, or I can go get a Nokia battery. I also Have a car charger I could try. -Original Message- From: Joerg Reisenweber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:17 AM To: openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Cc: steve; 'Wolfgang Spraul' Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge Am Mo 16. Juni 2008 schrieb steve: Help. Please a little more detail! What's happening, what are the steps you took and the reaction of the device. Where start tings to differ from what you'd expect? We have to make sure your power outlet is working first ;-) Honestly: charger defect? Neo defect? Charger detection? Battery? We need more details. cheers jOERG
RE: My Gta02s wont charge
Ah ok. Well I had two Neos GtA02 # 86 and I think #72. I checked them both out when I got them and they both worked fine, made calls functioned properly. After testing for a couple days I turned both phones off. Then I had a customer who needed a phone for his engineers so I figured, I'll give him one of mine. So I went to charge it. USB laptop. No charge. Next day I try factory charger #1, wall socket. No charge Switch wall sockets. No charge. Switch to razr charger ( 850ma) no charge. No nothing. I reseat the battery Try factory charger #2. nuthing. So, I just sent it to the customer and figured I will dump the Problem in michaels lap ( some friend steve) So, phone number #86. same thing. I have an old GTA01 battery that I can try, or I can go get a Nokia battery. I also Have a car charger I could try. -Original Message- From: Joerg Reisenweber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:17 AM To: openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org Cc: steve; 'Wolfgang Spraul' Subject: Re: My Gta02s wont charge Am Mo 16. Juni 2008 schrieb steve: > > Help. Please a little more detail! What's happening, what are the steps you took and the reaction of the device. Where start tings to differ from what you'd expect? We have to make sure your power outlet is working first ;-) Honestly: charger defect? Neo defect? Charger detection? Battery? We need more details. cheers jOERG
Re: My Gta02s wont charge
Am Mo 16. Juni 2008 schrieb steve: > > Help. Please a little more detail! What's happening, what are the steps you took and the reaction of the device. Where start tings to differ from what you'd expect? We have to make sure your power outlet is working first ;-) Honestly: charger defect? Neo defect? Charger detection? Battery? We need more details. cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
