[Opensim-dev] shell script to restart after crash
Hi, just for info: this script from a colleague of mine came handy to keep my OpenSims running. I know it's not rocket science but useful. Instead of calling mono OpenSim.exe you start this script: --snip-- until mono OpenSim.exe ; do EXIT_CODE=$? echo `date +%Y-%m-%d\ \ %T` # OpenSim crashed with exit code $EXIT_CODE. Restart... crash.log sleep 1 done --snip-- Best, Dirk winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] shell script to restart after crash
yes. it's an endless loop that restarts the Sim, if it wasn't closed without an error (i.e. got quit by the admin in a regular way). -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Jor3l Boa Gesendet: Fr 09.07.2010 08:35 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] shell script to restart after crash Hi dirk, this script will work if OpenSim crash more than once? 2010/7/9 Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.com Hi, just for info: this script from a colleague of mine came handy to keep my OpenSims running. I know it's not rocket science but useful. Instead of calling mono OpenSim.exe you start this script: --snip-- until mono OpenSim.exe ; do EXIT_CODE=$? echo `date +%Y-%m-%d\ \ %T` # OpenSim crashed with exit code $EXIT_CODE. Restart... crash.log sleep 1 done --snip-- Best, Dirk ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] FritzBox 7390 without NAT loopback??
@gustavo: thanks, I'll look into this! @teravus: indeed, good point. I wanted to refrain from this option but as a last resort ... @dahlia: I doubled checked this, and it is ok (esp. not different from before). But I am going to triple and quadruple check. I still suspect I did something blatantly stupid like forgetting the power cord :-) - I still don't believe AVM 'forgot' to implement this. Thanks for the suggestions! -- Dirk -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Teravus Ovares Gesendet: Fr 02.07.2010 23:57 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] FritzBox 7390 without NAT loopback?? The other thing that I have seen help when nat loopback isn't available is to put your simulator in the DMZ.. not everyone wants to do that though because of the security ramifications. Regards Teravus On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Gustavo Alberto Navarro Bilbao alberto.navarro.bil...@gmail.com wrote: Hi You can test the portforwarding configuration , and perhpas to correct it here: http://portforward.com/ Luck with it. Best Regards Alberto 2010/7/2 Dahlia Trimble dahliatrim...@gmail.com Hi Dirk, The only other time I've seen a problem with connecting to region... is when there is a misconfiguration of ExternalHostName in bin/Regions/Region.ini On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.com wrote: Hi, I just bought the new Fritzbox 7390 despite it's hefty pricetag. To add insult to injury I cannot use the OpenSimulator anymore from the 'inside' of the LAN/WAN, only from the outside, the client hangs on 'connecting to region' (but the user shows up on the opensim via 'show users'). This behavior is documented on the Wiki here: http://bit.ly/9IgiVX It says there that it is most likely that the router doesn't support NAT loopback. On the other hand all Fritzboxes support that (as is mentioned in the list http://bit.ly/Cjy0O ) and I would expect that the top of the line galaxy version of the Boxes does. So I opened a support ticket at AVM (in case it's simply a bug in the firmware), but my question is - is there another explanation for this behavior? What am I doing wrong maybe? The same configuration with a different router worked flawlessy. Is there anyone out there with a 7390 that can confirm it works for her/him? Thanks, Dirk ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
[Opensim-dev] FritzBox 7390 without NAT loopback??
Hi, I just bought the new Fritzbox 7390 despite it's hefty pricetag. To add insult to injury I cannot use the OpenSimulator anymore from the 'inside' of the LAN/WAN, only from the outside, the client hangs on 'connecting to region' (but the user shows up on the opensim via 'show users'). This behavior is documented on the Wiki here: http://bit.ly/9IgiVX It says there that it is most likely that the router doesn't support NAT loopback. On the other hand all Fritzboxes support that (as is mentioned in the list http://bit.ly/Cjy0O ) and I would expect that the top of the line galaxy version of the Boxes does. So I opened a support ticket at AVM (in case it's simply a bug in the firmware), but my question is - is there another explanation for this behavior? What am I doing wrong maybe? The same configuration with a different router worked flawlessy. Is there anyone out there with a 7390 that can confirm it works for her/him? Thanks, Dirk ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] GPL / BSD licensing dangers
This is probably worth an entry on the OpenSimulator Wiki, because that's what people keep asking (including me). Or is there already and I didn't notice? -- Dirk Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Diva Canto Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. Juni 2010 15:03 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] GPL / BSD licensing dangers The issue here is not BSD+GPL licenses in general, although that's also an issue to worry about; the issue we most vocally warn people about is very specific to OpenSim and Second Life. OpenSim has been made legally possible due to the generosity of Linden Lab's publishing their protocols by means of some public documentation and, yes, open sourcing the client [under GPL]. So far, we have had the passive and, at points, active support of Linden Lab in developing OpenSim. But, as we all know, Linden Lab is a relatively unpredictable company; at any point, it could be acquired by another company who is less enthusiastic about a free BSD open source server side to their client. In the absolute worst case scenario, that other company could cause us a lot of grief if OpenSim includes code directly derived from GPL'ed viewer code. (I don't want to start a rhetorical discussion about this; that's just the worst case scenario, period.) Hence, the no risks rule. We do not take patches from anyone who is actively involved in the development of viewers from the LL viewer family. If, however, you are talking about your own modules that aren't part of the official OpenSim distribution, then OpenSim has no say about it -- do whatever you want. No one here is in a position to give legal advice. On 6/30/2010 4:18 AM, Neil Canham wrote: Would anyone be able to tell me about the warning for any one person not to work on both the OpenSim source and a viewer such as Hippo? I understand that there are licensing differences (BSD vs GPL respectively) and that direct inclusion of GPL code in a BSD project breaks the GPL license. Surely you could guard against such direct inclusion? Does this extend to region modules and mini-region modules? I'm in the position of wanting to make changes to the viewer and also to write MRMs or other modules. -- Neil Canham -- ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] execute shutdown command automatically
another way could be to do it 'from the outside'. write a script that utilizes the webservice (you have to activate it first) and write a little script (for example in python) that counts the numbers of users in the region. If this drops to zero, then call admin_shutdown further info: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/RemoteAdmin http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/2009/05/11/using-the-regioninfo-rest-call/ http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/2008/01/23/using-pythons-xmlrpclib-with-opensim/ I also learned that RESTful interfaces seem to be working, so this might be even easier: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/RestConsole -- Dirk -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Justin Clark-Casey Gesendet: Fr 25.06.2010 19:39 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] execute shutdown command automatically On 24/06/10 17:49, Alberto Tapioles wrote: Hi everybody! First of all, i'm Tapi, and a user of OpenSim. I would like to know how to execute the shutdown command automatically. When the user closes the client viewer (for example SL) in the opensim console, the [CLIENT] got a logout request for that user and more messages about that the user is getting out of Opensim, so how can i execute the shutdown command automatically when this happens?? Because i need kill the application when the user does logout. Thanks in advance. There's no easy scripting way to do this. In principle, one could write a module to count the number of root agents in the region and execute the Shutdown() method on the OpenSim server. This would require writing c# code. -- Justin Clark-Casey (justincc) http://justincc.org http://twitter.com/justincc ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
[Opensim-dev] Freeswitch on Diva distribution?
Hi Crista/Diva (or anyone - maybe Rob?), is there any known issue with the Diva distro and Freeswitch? We are trying to get this to run for some time now without success. In the OpenSim-In-A-Box the Freeswitch to OpenSim connection works with another version flawlessly; if we try this with the Diva distro we get the error: 2010-05-05 10:24:49 [WARNING] sofia_reg.c:1540 sofia_reg_parse_auth() Can't find user [x8coxaiiztvc6xqf-nqulk...@184.73.214.132] You must define a domain called '184.73.214.132' in your directory and add a user with the id=x8cOXAiIzTVC6xqf-nquLkw== attribute and you must configure your device to use the proper domain in it's authentication credentials. Thank you very much, Dirk ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Running FreeSwitch with OpenSim
I uploaded the 5.1 versions here: http://drop.io/biu1lqd -- Dirk -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Jor3l Boa Gesendet: Di 18.05.2010 21:45 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Running FreeSwitch with OpenSim Thanks Rob, tried to install Hippo .51 on XP, Win7 and Ubuntu.. I just never installs (gave error when downlaoding files).. is there another way to do it or download the hippo? Thanks for your help 2010/5/18 Rob Smart rob.s.sm...@gmail.com Joroen is referring to enabling voice for a particular region/land parcel. This only needs to be done once and is an administrative task. It seems some viewers don't allow this admin step to enable the voice with OpenSim but with Hippo 0.51 it works. I'm not sure why the other viewers don't work but i have seen this too. On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Jor3l Boa jo...@foravatars.com wrote: Jeroen, are you talking about the voice not working..? I don't see the point using another viewer to get voice since most people uses the official Second Life viewer :S 2010/5/17 Jeroen van Veen j.veen...@gmail.com That's a viewer bug. Check it with hippo 0.51 and you will see it's not greyed out anymore. Jeroen On Wednesday 12 May 2010 22:35:27 Jor3l Boa wrote: Actually, tried About Land / Media / Voice, but is disabled (can't check the Enable voice).. in Estate 'Allow voice chat' is active, any other idea? Thanks to all and sorry for my bad english :) 2010/5/12 Rob Smart rob.s.sm...@gmail.com :) by seconds ! Freeswitch needs to be started first because when mod_xml_curl is used it expects ALL config information to come from the named source, in this case OpenSim. However to make OpenSim handle all config and not just the dialplan and directory that it currently handles would require lots and lots of XML to be returned and many new parameters in the OpenSim.ini file. If Freeswitch trys to use mod_xml_curl but doesnt get a a valid HTTP response then it will use its default config which is how it currently works. On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.comwrote: ah you beat me too it :-). I am surprised that the OpenSim needs to be started before FreeSwitch. I thought it was the other way round ... -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Rob Smart Gesendet: Mi 12.05.2010 22:12 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Running FreeSwitch with OpenSim One of your debug lines below reads 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]:[ PARCELVOICE]: region Devi: Parcel devi OpenSim (1): avatar d Admin: voice not enabled for parcel Voice needs to be turned on in the Region via the SL/Hippo client. - You need to log into the region as an admin. - Click on the region name at the top of the client (or right click on some grass) so that you get the About Land popup. - Go to the media tab and in the Voice section at the bottom - select Use the Estate spatial channel (That's what it reads in the Hippo client anyway) - log out and log back in again, you may need to restart the region. On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Jor3l Boa jo...@foravatars.com wrote: Well, a lot of progress but no voice.. here is something I dont understand so if someone can point me to FS or OS I can search to get this working : :) : *From OS Console, when the AV request voice:* 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]:[PROVISIONVOICE]: request: llsdundef //llsd 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]:[PROVISIONVOICE]: avatar d Admin: llsdmapkeyusername/keystringxdPCKuP4mQdqNMLD4z3su0w==/string keypassword/keystring1234/stringkeyvoice_sip_uri_hostname/key string192.168.0.171/stringkeyvoice_account_server_name/keystri ng http://192.168.0.171:9000/api//string/map/llsd 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]: FreeSwitchSLVoiceGetPreloginHTTPHandler called 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]: FreeSwitchSLVoiceGetPreloginHTTPHandler return ?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8? 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]: FreeSwitchSLVoiceSigninHTTPHandler called 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]: AUTH, URI: /api/viv_signin.php, Content-Type:application/x-www-form-urlencoded, Bodypwd=1234userid=xdPCKuP4mQdqNMLD4z3su0w%3D%3D 14:39:39 - [FREESWITCH]: ?xml version=1.0 encoding=iso-8859-1 ?response xmlns=http://www.vivox.com; xmlns:xsi= http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance; xsi:schemaLocation= /xsd/buddy_list.xsdlevel0 *Here it fails?, why the voice is not enabled?* * * 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]:[PARCELVOICE]: region Devi: Parcel devi OpenSim (1): avatar d Admin: request: llsdundef //llsd 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]:[PARCELVOICE]: region Devi: Parcel devi OpenSim (1): avatar d Admin
Re: [Opensim-dev] Running FreeSwitch with OpenSim
IIRC you have to enable voice on the sim: log in as the admin avatar: then in the viewer 'enable worlds/about land/media/voice/use the estate spacial channel' then disable voice and enable it again in 'preferences/voice chat'. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Jor3l Boa Gesendet: Mi 12.05.2010 21:47 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Running FreeSwitch with OpenSim Well, a lot of progress but no voice.. here is something I dont understand so if someone can point me to FS or OS I can search to get this working :) *From OS Console, when the AV request voice:* 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]:[PROVISIONVOICE]: request: llsdundef //llsd 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]:[PROVISIONVOICE]: avatar d Admin: llsdmapkeyusername/keystringxdPCKuP4mQdqNMLD4z3su0w==/stringkeypassword/keystring1234/stringkeyvoice_sip_uri_hostname/keystring192.168.0.171/stringkeyvoice_account_server_name/keystring http://192.168.0.171:9000/api//string/map/llsd 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]: FreeSwitchSLVoiceGetPreloginHTTPHandler called 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]: FreeSwitchSLVoiceGetPreloginHTTPHandler return ?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8? 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]: FreeSwitchSLVoiceSigninHTTPHandler called 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]: AUTH, URI: /api/viv_signin.php, Content-Type:application/x-www-form-urlencoded, Bodypwd=1234userid=xdPCKuP4mQdqNMLD4z3su0w%3D%3D 14:39:39 - [FREESWITCH]: ?xml version=1.0 encoding=iso-8859-1 ?response xmlns=http://www.vivox.com; xmlns:xsi= http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance; xsi:schemaLocation= /xsd/buddy_list.xsdlevel0 *Here it fails?, why the voice is not enabled?* * * 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]:[PARCELVOICE]: region Devi: Parcel devi OpenSim (1): avatar d Admin: request: llsdundef //llsd 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]:[PARCELVOICE]: region Devi: Parcel devi OpenSim (1): avatar d Admin: voice not enabled for parcel 14:39:39 - [FreeSwitchVoice]:[PARCELVOICE]: region Devi: Parcel devi OpenSim (1): avatar d Admin: llsdmapkeyparcel_local_id/keyinteger1/integerkeyregion_name/keystringDevi/stringkeyvoice_credentials/keymapkeychannel_uri/keystring //map/map/llsd Thanks 2010/5/12 Jor3l Boa jo...@foravatars.com Thanks Fly-man, was trying OS first just to make sure there was a folder, now it seems to run and start.. for some reason is not working (no errors for now) Will keep trying and post any solution on wiki. 2010/5/12 Fly Man fly.man.open...@gmail.com Well, this is a simple question with an even easier answer: Don't start FreeSwitch first, start Opensim first and then Freeswitch. The link /api/freeswitch-config doesn't exist in the Opensim instance because it's not implemented. Also see the Wiki page about more info http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Freeswitch_Module ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] CONSOLE (Redux)
+1 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Mike Dickson Gesendet: Do 02.07.2009 17:39 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: [Opensim-dev] CONSOLE (Redux) Or even better, remove the console entirely (i.e. run it as a daemon process and manage via an xml/rpc interface...). Mike On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 04:10 +, Dan wrote: Is it possible to to remove these from cluttering up the console? --- 2009-06-10 00:07:20,487 DEBUG - OpenSim.Region.CoreModules.ServiceConnectors.Interregion.RESTInterregionComms uri=/agent/b4847c23-08ea-46d3-9f29-7f96736c6845/ 2009-06-10 00:07:20,487 DEBUG - OpenSim.Region.CoreModules.ServiceConnectors.Interregion.RESTInterregionComms content-type=application/json 2009-06-10 00:07:20,487 DEBUG - OpenSim.Region.CoreModules.ServiceConnectors.Interregion.RESTInterregionComms http-method=PUT 2009-06-10 00:07:20,502 DEBUG - OpenSim.Region.CoreModules.ServiceConnectors.Interregion.RESTInterregionComms ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Help needed for stand alone grid for 800 users...HELP! [bayes]
That's exactly what AW does. You can host it completely in-house. Again, I didn't try it myself but I know several members of this list did. Since the AW issue is going off-topic for this list, and we will talk anyhow, I close here. Best, Dirk Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Andrew Hughes Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 17:35 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Help needed for stand alone grid for 800 users...HELP! [bayes] Hi Dirk, I am not 100% towards the opensim. What I am NOT allowed to do is to use a 3rd party grid. The school has made it clear this must be hosted by them or hosted by a stand alone company (server farm) and cannot be hosted by a 3rd party like Linden Lab or Activeworlds. Unless there is a stand alone version of activeworlds to use. They want to own the world and that was told to me from the start or we are not allowed to do this project for them. Trust me I would love to make them just buy grids from SL or Activeworlds (it makes my life sooo much easier. lol). On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.com wrote: Hi, I don't want to spoil the show for OpenSim here, but if you really want 800 users in a virtual world there is no way around ActiveWorlds (http://activeworlds.com/ ) - at least that's how IBM does it according to David van Gent. When it comes to user number of 50 or higher at one place, they switch to ActiveWorlds. It is an old but very proven technology that is very affordable. Again, I am not promoting AW being a big OpenSim fan myself ( http://web3dblog.wordpress.com ) but if you want to get the job done, you might consider AW. I didn't try it myself but filed it under 'you need that for large numbers' If you want to have it based on OpenSim for some reason, ignore this comment here J. Best, Dirk Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Andrew Hughes Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 17:17 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Help needed for stand alone grid for 800 users... HELP! [bayes] Hi Nebadon, Thanks for your info, it's really shedding light on this issue. I might not of explained what I am after in detail. I am not looking to run 1 sim, I am looking to run multiple sims that will handle the load of 800 users. I do not know how to make those sims (not regions I know how to make the xml file and make another island) but the server side software connect together on one machine to handle the load. To make that type of grid, does anyone know where we could actually obtain those servers? Regarding asset storage, we do not anticipate the students really doing anything except for coming into this area and meet with their teachers for a presentation. Let me know what you guys think, as I am trying to find the best solution for the school. Thanks! On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Nebadon Izumi nebadon2...@gmail.com wrote: At this current time getting 800 people into 1 region is going to be virtually impossible, even with the load balance the region max limit is probably going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of around 100 users max per 1 region, without load balancing your going to get about 30-40 users max per region. And really these limits are only going to apply if your all your doing is standing around chatting, if your expecting people to be able to build and script you can cut these numbers way down depending on your hardware your deploying. My guess though even if you could get 800 people into 1 region (Highly Unlikley it will ever happen honestly) you are likely to have other issues with chat and being able to actually control communications with such large crowds. I hate to say it but OpenSimulator is really in no way capable of housing such a large production at this time nor likely will be anytime in the near future either. If your talking about 800 students spread out over an entire grid all not in the same 1 region then that is more realistic but the same math will apply, your going to need a good 30 regions with all having 1 core of CPU power and aprox 2gb ram per region if your expecting 800 users, and your going to need fairly beefy Asset services with lots of storage space. Anyway if you have more questions about it please let us know. -- Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- Have a creative day, Andrew M Hughes President Designing Digitally Inc. -A Second Life (r) Gold Solution Developer. -A proud member of the Better Business Bureau with an overall BBB rating of A-. -General Services Administration (GSA) IT Schedule 70 Contract Holder
Re: [Opensim-dev] MANTIS PRIORITY LIST PROPOSAL
Hi, I have to agree with Melanie. This is not about being selfish, it's about who you see as the user. Let's say you have a bug that fills your database slowly but surely, then the user and grid operator Charles K. (name abbreviated to protect the innocent) is very much influenced, but the end user will not notice it for months maybe years (until the grid goes down). So every bug will be important to someone - as you say, the users. - Dirk -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Thomas Grimshaw Gesendet: Mi 03.06.2009 20:01 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] MANTIS PRIORITY LIST PROPOSAL Well, it's not really that hard, just don't do it in a selfish way.. Put yourself in the users' shoes.. ~Tom. Melanie wrote: Severity is a malleable term. To me, a bug that will cause me to lose appearance on teleports would be _much_ more severe than one that eats SQLite tables. Because I _do_ care about my avatar's appearance, but _don't_ use SQLite. So, I would think it's really hard to find an objective way of ordering bugs. Melanie Robert Martin wrote: On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Dan retro...@gmail.com wrote: Due to the large number of Mantis reports, how about prioritizing them according to their importance, and focus on all Mantis reports related to the most critical issues first. how about this when we rank the bugs do two different sets of points 1 number of months the bug has lived = 0.5 points per month 2 how important the bug is: A Filesystem damage: 20 points B File damage :10 points internal files only 15 points if it trashes files outside C Client or server crash: 7 points with a bonus of 2 points if it is a repeatable multi-client crash D Login or core feature problem: 6 points E glitch or non locking problem: 2 points and so forth also could we maybe close some of the bugs if we made sure they are actually still live ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OGPX and IETF-ing things [text]
From your track record very well documented in this mailing list, I'd say you have good chances to get things done nicely here. Although I don't agree on all your opinions (read: OpenID, OAuth), sometimes someone has to implement things *when and *how she thinks it is right without political constraints to make an impact. After all someone could think about paying you for your work. At least a bit more than a hippo and a missing free t-shirt. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Cristina Videira Lopes Gesendet: Mi 03.06.2009 21:37 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: [Opensim-dev] OGPX and IETF-ing things [text] Inifinity sent me a very nice private message, which, because it was private, I'm not going to forward here. But the bottom line of his nice message could use some public discussion. Essentially Infinity is suggesting that we move towards getting the Hypergrid work into the IETF, through this newly created OGPX working group. Personally, I think this is all premature. IETF-ing the Hypergrid is premature for different reasons than IETF-ing OGP is premature. The Hypergrid is not really ready for prime time until we have the Hypergrid2 in place, with its security model to protect users from malicious simulators. OGP is not ready for prime time because no one has seen it yet, at least not any reasonably complete implementation of it. The right thing to do, I think, is to first have implementations of both OGP and the Hypergrid2 in OpenSim. Once that is in place, we can all see the similarities and differences, and try to standardize the similar pieces. Alternatively, we can try to work together towards one single interop protocol, but honestly I think that's not going to happen, simply because there is space for many (not just 2, but 3 or 4) What I suspect will happen is that OGP and the Hypergrid will have several pieces that are very much in sync, with small details that are different, and then they will have a few really important pieces that are substantially different. Things like posting/retrieving agents to/from regions, for example, we already converged to using REST; inventory access, we already converged to using capability URLs, etc. Small details such as the format of the data on the wire are different, but that doesn't really matter as long as we agree that the Content-type can be set to different things. The thing that will be substantially different is the issue of authority: what component has authority to do what. In OGP regions are still the ones doing agent transfers, therefore implying a trust relation between interacting grids that must be established in some non-technical manner (i.e. the receiving region trusts that the sending region is not stealing the user's identity). In the Hypergrid, agent transfers between non-trusting regions are done on the client side, so that the identity of the user can always be verified, there is no region in the middle acting on behalf of anyone. So, that's the main difference, as far as I understand OGP. The Hypergrid2 is in place through a proof-of-concept prototype client (Grider) and a couple of small but horrible hacks in OpenSim. OGP implementations don't exist yet, or they are not available to us which is the same. I think there's a lot of work to do before we go and propose any of this as standards. But I thought I'd bring this up for discussion. Maybe other people aren't as strict on working implementations as I am. Crista ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Accessing textures via HTTP [bayes]
IIRC one of the metadata entries is the link to he binary data. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Tommi Laukkanen Gesendet: Montag, 16. März 2009 15:07 An: Mike Mazur Cc: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Accessing textures via HTTP [bayes] Hi I would like to receive the asset binary. I am not that interested in the metadata currently. Is there a way to access that? regards, Tommi On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 2:11 AM, Mike Mazur mma...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 08:35:21 +0200 Tommi Laukkanen tommi.s.e.laukka...@gmail.com wrote: I would need to fetch textures from assetserver using HTTP. Is it enabled by default anf if so any pointers to find out url format? Do I need enable some module? The asset server exposes an HTTP handler for assets at: http://address:port/assets/asset_UUID A GET request to that URL will receive an XML-serialized AssetBase class as defined in OpenSim/Framework/AssetBase.cs. A POST of an XML-serialized AssetBase class to the same URL will create an asset. If you'd like custom behavior, I encourage you to look at the AssetInventoryServer and some of the Frontend plugins it has. Look in OpenSim/Grid/AssetInventoryServer/Plugins. HTH, Mike ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
[Opensim-dev] The internet that never happened (still happy birthday to poor Tim)
After being in the business for quite some time, I learned today that 20 years ago Tim Berners Lee invented the WWW (ok, granted, I knew that :-) ). What I didn't know is that he did it with an application that was viewer and editor at the same time. Which was a splendid idea! Epic fail #1: after some time he split it into a so called browser, leaving the poor WWW pioneers with editing HTML with a text editor. Bummer! Learning #1: always include editor and viewer in one app. It's obvious - everybody who reads a book wants to write one, too. Epic fail #2: Then some time later the institute he was working for released the source code (not the app! the code!) named libwww to the public domain. The public domain!! Helloho! They gave it away for free! Learning #2: never release the source code of your precious proprietary server software. At least not if you want to last long. Offer them APIs to integrate instead. Of course the whole thing didn't work out. That's why this is the sad story of ... ... why the 2D internet never happened. winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Authentication, take 2: Capabilities
I can do that. Is the correct question: Are the inventory requests done via caps or via UDP? Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Diva Canto Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Februar 2009 22:24 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Authentication, take 2: Capabilities I don't subscribe to that mailing list. Can someone please do that? I've been searching on Google, and I found a meeting with Mark where he clearly says that inventory access has swicthed to caps: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_Mar_13 (search 'caps') I couldn't find documents mentioning the retraction of that yet. Dirk Krause wrote: Maybe it would make sense to verify this on sl-dev mailing list? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Februar 2009 22:10 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Authentication, take 2: Capabilities That is what was said. Linden reverted the inventory protocol to UDP on their servers because of an issue in the viewer that was so fundamental that it was decided to not be worth fixing. Whether this is true, I don't know. but it was said. Melanie Diva Canto wrote: Melanie wrote: Linden turned it off because it's broken in the client. So, we can try to use it but will hit the same wall, since the client was never fixed. Melanie: are you 100% sure about this? This, of course, is critical. The whole point of my thinking was to access inventory over the consistent model of CAPs; if that's not working, then everything else is minor. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Authentication, take 2: Capabilities
Done. Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Diva Canto Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Februar 2009 22:32 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Authentication, take 2: Capabilities Yes, something like that. And If they're done via UDP, what was the problem with the Inventory CAP that was deployed sometime last year? Thanks. Dirk Krause wrote: I can do that. Is the correct question: Are the inventory requests done via caps or via UDP? Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Diva Canto Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Februar 2009 22:24 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Authentication, take 2: Capabilities I don't subscribe to that mailing list. Can someone please do that? I've been searching on Google, and I found a meeting with Mark where he clearly says that inventory access has swicthed to caps: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_Mar_13 (search 'caps') I couldn't find documents mentioning the retraction of that yet. Dirk Krause wrote: Maybe it would make sense to verify this on sl-dev mailing list? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Februar 2009 22:10 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Authentication, take 2: Capabilities That is what was said. Linden reverted the inventory protocol to UDP on their servers because of an issue in the viewer that was so fundamental that it was decided to not be worth fixing. Whether this is true, I don't know. but it was said. Melanie Diva Canto wrote: Melanie wrote: Linden turned it off because it's broken in the client. So, we can try to use it but will hit the same wall, since the client was never fixed. Melanie: are you 100% sure about this? This, of course, is critical. The whole point of my thinking was to access inventory over the consistent model of CAPs; if that's not working, then everything else is minor. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
[Opensim-dev] FP7 Call 4
Hi, I hope this isn't considered as spam, so I keep this short: is anybody interested to partner for the FP7 Call 4? We are intending to submit a proposal based on OpenSimulator and we are looking for partners who are - preferably european, but not german (since my company, Pixelpark, will do the german part) - either universities or corporations We successfully pitched a german research development fund with OpenSim technologies (among other successful RD pitches). More information here: http://tinyurl.com/9z28ro We are specifically looking at Challenge 1: Pervasive and Trusted Network and Service Infrastructures ICT 2009.1.1 The Network of the Future ICT 2009.1.5 Networked Media 3D Internet Thanks for the bandwidth, Dirk/Bart ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage
Sorry, this mail somehow escaped me by scrolling off too fast. Now that I found it, I'd like to state that a reaping strategy is something that definitely will work, but to me is something like the last resort. I just imagine all these mails of type: 'Dear Mr. Grid Owner, I hate you because you deleted my Blue Bird Of Happiness and my Shiny Sword of Trademark. Yes, I didn't thouch them for over a year, but they remind me of the first useless things I ever collected. So be you and your first born child please cursed. Thanks for your attention.' From an IT standpoint I'd like to make sure that you have a reasonable database growth, and a reaping strategy would enforce that, so that would be ok. If there'd be another strategy that would make reaping unnecessary, I'd welcome that. To me one solution involving different data responsibilities and quotas smells like such a solution. -- Dirk/Bart -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Februar 2009 03:27 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage Hi, i proposed a reaping strategy that is both type and time based. There was no direct response to it, but current development on new de-duping cable beach plugins may go a long way to curb asset proliferation and the reaper can be developed on that basis. Refcounting may be feasible as a positive indication, e.g. to indicate something is _definitely_ safe to delete, but a reaper will still be required. Melanie Buckaroo Mu wrote: Melanie wrote: This is something i have though about. However, it would not work in OSGrid. Regions may go away, and they may go away permanently. Anything in a prim inventory at that time is refcounted and would not be released. Ever. In what what in particular would this be worse than the current situation? Yes, some assets would end up staying around forever. However, unlike the current scheme, some... would not. So, you'd need a ref list, to purge invalid refs. That is where the inpracticability begins. A redf list for each and every asset, listing either avatar UUID or region UUID? Eep, no - wasn't considering suggesting this. If assets are 51 mio, how long will the reflist table be? Melanie Buckaroo Mu wrote: Here's my L$0.02, for what it's worth - why not maintain a 'reference count' in the asset entry? Resident A creates a prim, takes it into inventory. Asset is created, inventory item pointing to asset is created, asset-useagecount++. User gives away 15 copies of item, asset-usagecount+=15. Resident A deletes original item, inventory item goes away, asset-usagecount--. Resident B rezzes item on sim. If item is no-copy, asset-usagecount--. If it's copy, and Resident B (or Resident C) takes it back into inventory, asset-usagecount++ (they would have two copies of it). Resident B deletes both copies from inventory, asset-usagecount -=2. If asset-usagecount == 0, asset gets deleted. Tell me why this wouldn't work. I'm sure there's a simple reason, but I can't think of it. All of this is assuming that the asset is no-mod - any change to the asset creates a new UUID, correct? But if the asset is rezzed, then taken back into inventory, it should have the same UUID, thus adding one to the usage count. -Buckaroo Melanie wrote: All you described is design behavior. Prim items in world are not assets. They are stored exclusively in the prims tables of the region. Once taken, they become an asset. The name is totally meaningless, it reflects whatever was the name at creation. Nothing else. It never changes from there on. On deleting the inventory item, assets remain. There is no easy or practicable way to conclusively say that an asset is trash, because we don't know. In your test case, your (human) mind could know this for a fact, however, the silicon mind of the asset server can't. This is because you may have given the object to another user, or put a copy into a prim. These copies would refer to the same asset, that is what implictily shared means. So, any asset may, at any time, have any number of links to it, even zero. Like a website, you don't know who linked to it. If you remove it, you leave dead links. Assets are the same. Except, you get Asset missing from database. So, assetas are NOT 1-to-1 with inventory items, and they _never_ get deleted. They have to be reaped, and there is a big discussion over how to best do that, running right now. Melanie Dirk Krause wrote: Hi, I did a little test with a fresh OpenSim installation (yes, thanks for the installer!), to get a grip on what I learned from Melanie yesterday. I wrote a little python script to help me monitor these tables: inventoryStore/inventoryItems assetStorage/assets http://pastebin.com
Re: [Opensim-dev] On solving Authentication and such
+1 (actually more then 1, but then people will get suspicious :-) ). Absolutely in favor of this. -- Dirk/Bart -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Stefan Andersson Gesendet: Di 24.02.2009 12:07 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: [Opensim-dev] On solving Authentication and such By the way, I've been talking to some people lately around various viewer and protocol issues, and I have come to realize that we are apparently locked into the mindset of having the viewer being the 'community application' - I would propose another frame of mind, separating whatever should be done in 3D as a separate experience from what should be done in 2D. Of course, they should interleave, but they should not have to be implemented in the same codebase. Huh? I hear you say. To put it otherwise; the ideal setup would be a 3D rendering surface optionally with 2D web surfaces superimposed on it. From there, the 3D rendering surface should talk some real-time protocol to a 3D scene streaming service (aka the region server) but the 2D web surfaces should communicate with Web 2.0 services. This would allow us to break the issues apart, and having various competencies working on various domains, as well as letting the application coders slice the cookie anyway they want. So, what I'm saying is, in short: Let's start breaking stuff out of the viewer context, and onto other user interfaces, like the web or third-party admin tools. I should have my preferred IM client, not my viewer. I should have my (web-based?) inventory tool, not my viewer. I should log in thru my social network, not my viewer. I should transfer and administrate content thru aux means (web, file, blog, e-mail, ftp, burn) not trhu the viewer. et c. Sure, we should always be able to do it thru clients that provide adequate tools, but hey, let's break free of the centralized monolith app thinking. Ps, what's the difference with having windows on top of each others in the 3D surface, and having windows on top of each others on the desktop? Best regards, Stefan Andersson Tribal Media AB winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] User Authentication
I recently talked to mrtopf/tao takashi about getting openid into opensim because I was/am hoping to sink a couple of developer days into implementing this. from what I understood one the tricky parts is to implement openid in the client, since from an openid standpoint you dont want the server to receive username and password at all. after the negotiation between the client and the openid provider there is some additional token sent to the server to double check that this negotiation really happened. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Toni Alatalo Gesendet: Mo 23.02.2009 21:37 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] User Authentication Tommi Laukkanen kirjoitti: I got promising link from yesterday from Ryan (sempuki): http://dev.aol.com/OpenidTokenExchange That seems to be developed to solve exactly this problem. First point of authentication fetches tokens from token yep and a token is also what the original / current rexserver uses for the 'global avatar system' uses to address this issue. there the client can connect to any world, tell who it is, pass a one-time(?) token gotten from auth a second ago, which the world then uses to verify from the auth the user uses (and the server has decided to trust). the plan is probably to switch to openid and that in Rex as well, i.e. to 'standards instead of Finnish magic' (in J. Hurlman's words from the other day :) . we did the mistake back then 1,5 years ago when worked on rexauth that, when thought too much of avatars and other VW specific stuff also, even though did realize that one part is only about identity, failed to realize that openid would have helped (maybe the token exchange wasn't there yet even, iirc it's more recent than oauth?) .. also because the ppl who got the idea didn't know about openid i guess (i didn't know much either so failed to make the connection). the other mistake i guess was that didn't consider how it could work with the existing user server in opensim, i guess because we thought that's somehow tied to the grid-bound auth used in SL and Opensim otherwise (which Rex got rid of and instead has the independent auth that can work for any grid or server, like openid). at least the guys did get it implemented quickly and afaik it has been working ok since and kinda proves that model partly at least? and now it seems we have a chance to get it with standards and properly. yay! Tommi ~Toni ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] User Authentication
1) Well, we could change at least the hippo viewer *ducks* 2) 'one could use the opensim login code to create the token' so the OpenSim instance simulates the viewer for now? Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Tommi Laukkanen Gesendet: Montag, 23. Februar 2009 22:03 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] User Authentication As we cannot change the viewer at the moment one could use the opensim login code to create the token... regards, Tommi ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage
As soon as you buy it, the asset gets copied to your regions asset repository
(if it is something that persists while you are not online, like a house maybe)
and it goes into your personal repository when it's an attachement (like
clothing).
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Dr Scofield
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Februar 2009 08:46
An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de
Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage
Dirk Krause wrote:
Glad you asked :-).
I would do a mixture of the following (and admit that I didn't think it all
through to the very end).
- introduce grid wide, region wide and personal (user) asset domains
- introduce quotas for these
- allow clones ('byref') assets, and copies that go into one of the domains,
resp.
I then would expect to have grid wide assets that are 'always on', region
wide assets that only are important when the region is connected, and
personal assets that are only visible when the user is online (could even be
an FTP server behind a cable beach server).
It boils down to: if someone treasures something, she better keeps it in her
treasure chest, in her responsibility (and maintenance cost).
ok. so i now buy something in your region, take it with me, rezz it on my
region. how would that work and how would that address your concerns? oh, and my
region is rather volatile, it might be there one moment, it might be off-line
the next.
DrS/dirk
--
dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab
SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/
RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/
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[Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage
Hi,
I did a little test with a fresh OpenSim installation (yes, thanks for
the installer!),
to get a grip on what I learned from Melanie yesterday.
I wrote a little python script to help me monitor these tables:
inventoryStore/inventoryItems
assetStorage/assets
http://pastebin.com/mc9e6574 , be warned: ugly code.
I started OpenSim and logged in a 'Test User' with the SL viewer.
(Just to mention it - first time log in in as test users creates
4 'blank' entries in assets.)
The inventoryItems table was initially empty.
Now I rezzed a cube and renamed it to 'p1'.
inventoryStore/inventoryItems was still empty.
To my surprise no new entry shows up in assetStorage/assets.
Picking up the cube ('take') created an entry named 'p1' in the
inventory and in the asset table.
Now I renamed the cube in Test Users inventory to 'p2'.
The name in inventoryStore/inventoryItems changes to 'p2'.
The entry in assetStorage/assets stays 'p1'. As mentioned on the list
before,
the asset name is useless, since the user only sees the name in the
inventory.
Now I deleted 'p2' in my inventory - 'p2's parentfolderID changes to
'Trash'.
Now I emptied the trash - the inventory table is empty again, which is
fine,
but here's the big one:
the assetStorage/assets still holds the reference to 'p1'.
Just to make sure I shut down the simulator and opened it again, and it
was still there.
Now, doesn't that mean, that the database increases over time with no
hope to find
these assets that actually should be gone? or is there some magic
purging that happens,
and that I missed?
This would mean that any grid runs into a severe problem over time.
Best,
Dirk/Bart
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Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage
... This would mean that any grid runs into a severe problem over time. Yep :). On a standalone one could implement some cleanup scheme which checks everything to see if an asset is still referenced, and deletes that asset if it is not. In grid mode this is a much more difficult problem since references are scattered across many different regions servers. The situation is even worse if you are running a grid where not all of them are guaranteed to be connected. But isn't that ... horrible? (in lack of a better/worse word.) As I said yesterday, IMHO there is no real need to think about optimizations when you have a serious blocker like this. I would even go so far that this is a major roadblock for grid based technologies per se. (grid as in Rosedale's 'Happily now, Second Life has been proven to exist. If we disappeared tomorrow, the grid would be rebuilt by you.') I take it the bad news is that any proposed solution to this breaks SL compatibility? Maybe now would be a good time to take a step away from it. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage
There could be business modell attached to it. Lets say you sell only the 'right to use it for a given time' to the user, then you would have only one set of assets with multiple inventory pointers from your 2000 customers. Once you delete/disable it, no one can use it anymore. Once you update it, all 2000 have a newer version of it. The other model would be the 'I buy it so I get a real copy of it'. The asset will be copied (in my scenario to my local inventory domain, so I 'really' own it). If you delete yours, mine is still there. If you update it, I need to obtain a newer copy. There could even be a concept that something is there only once (maybe art); you create it, give it a away (for a good price) and you don't have it anymore. The asset vanishes from your inventory domain. Regarding the SL compatibility - maybe it doesn't need to be broken. IIRC isn't there this CAPS mechanism that already proxies assets? Couldn't there be some kind of intelligence behind it that collects and distributes assets from the different domains? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Februar 2009 19:57 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage Making a copy is the greater evil. With implicitly shared assets, only content creators create assets. With asset copying, each sale/give creates assets. Take SL: I make a clothing item. I have to make 18 uploads (creating 18 assets) to finally use 2 of the uploaded textures. I have also created 36 wearable assets through this. Then i put that item for sale. 2000 users buy it. With implicitly shared assets, assets consumed: 18 texture, 36 wearable. With asset copying, assets consumed: 4001 texture, 4003 wearable See, the point of diminishing returns for copying is very close. Melanie John Ward wrote: Justin Clark-Casey wrote: The problem is that you may have given that item to somebody else. Giving an item does not make an asset copy, it just makes an inventory item copy (both inventory items still point towards the same asset). So you may delete your item, but we don't know if the asset referenced by that item lives on in someone else's inventory (or in an object inventory). So we can't delete the underlying asset. Why not make an asset copy when one makes an inventory copy? Then delete the asset when deleted from inventory. Is each user having their own copy of many things a bigger problem? I guess this doesn't address one having out of ban knowledge of an assets UUID and expecting it to be there. Also, I accept that I may be missing some fundamental knowledge of how things work. Please be gentle :-) John. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage
Ok, granted. But isn't this a bit chicken/egg here? Possible solution scenarios should define the requirements of the viewer, which probably won't write itself. Esp. when new viewers will be based on openmv somebody should tell John et al. :-). -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Februar 2009 20:42 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage In the viewer, the following are true: - The asset ID attached to an inventory item may not change - The item ID of an inventory item may not change - an asset's content may not change. So, with this client, it's moot. We are exploring other concepts and will be implementing them as and when other clients become usable. Melanie Dirk Krause wrote: There could be business modell attached to it. Lets say you sell only the 'right to use it for a given time' to the user, then you would have only one set of assets with multiple inventory pointers from your 2000 customers. Once you delete/disable it, no one can use it anymore. Once you update it, all 2000 have a newer version of it. The other model would be the 'I buy it so I get a real copy of it'. The asset will be copied (in my scenario to my local inventory domain, so I 'really' own it). If you delete yours, mine is still there. If you update it, I need to obtain a newer copy. There could even be a concept that something is there only once (maybe art); you create it, give it a away (for a good price) and you don't have it anymore. The asset vanishes from your inventory domain. Regarding the SL compatibility - maybe it doesn't need to be broken. IIRC isn't there this CAPS mechanism that already proxies assets? Couldn't there be some kind of intelligence behind it that collects and distributes assets from the different domains? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Februar 2009 19:57 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage Making a copy is the greater evil. With implicitly shared assets, only content creators create assets. With asset copying, each sale/give creates assets. Take SL: I make a clothing item. I have to make 18 uploads (creating 18 assets) to finally use 2 of the uploaded textures. I have also created 36 wearable assets through this. Then i put that item for sale. 2000 users buy it. With implicitly shared assets, assets consumed: 18 texture, 36 wearable. With asset copying, assets consumed: 4001 texture, 4003 wearable See, the point of diminishing returns for copying is very close. Melanie John Ward wrote: Justin Clark-Casey wrote: The problem is that you may have given that item to somebody else. Giving an item does not make an asset copy, it just makes an inventory item copy (both inventory items still point towards the same asset). So you may delete your item, but we don't know if the asset referenced by that item lives on in someone else's inventory (or in an object inventory). So we can't delete the underlying asset. Why not make an asset copy when one makes an inventory copy? Then delete the asset when deleted from inventory. Is each user having their own copy of many things a bigger problem? I guess this doesn't address one having out of ban knowledge of an assets UUID and expecting it to be there. Also, I accept that I may be missing some fundamental knowledge of how things work. Please be gentle :-) John. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage
ok, very cool, thanks for the info. I take it you esp refer to IdealistViewer, openviewer and the Rex-NG viewer? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Februar 2009 21:21 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage There are several viewer being developed already and their authors are aware of requirements and responsive to different needs. Mainly, any new viewer will be able to accommodate changes quickly, unlike the LL viewer. So I see no need for a drawn out standardization discussion. This project is in too early a phase for this. Melanie Dirk Krause wrote: Ok, granted. But isn't this a bit chicken/egg here? Possible solution scenarios should define the requirements of the viewer, which probably won't write itself. Esp. when new viewers will be based on openmv somebody should tell John et al. :-). -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Februar 2009 20:42 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage In the viewer, the following are true: - The asset ID attached to an inventory item may not change - The item ID of an inventory item may not change - an asset's content may not change. So, with this client, it's moot. We are exploring other concepts and will be implementing them as and when other clients become usable. Melanie Dirk Krause wrote: There could be business modell attached to it. Lets say you sell only the 'right to use it for a given time' to the user, then you would have only one set of assets with multiple inventory pointers from your 2000 customers. Once you delete/disable it, no one can use it anymore. Once you update it, all 2000 have a newer version of it. The other model would be the 'I buy it so I get a real copy of it'. The asset will be copied (in my scenario to my local inventory domain, so I 'really' own it). If you delete yours, mine is still there. If you update it, I need to obtain a newer copy. There could even be a concept that something is there only once (maybe art); you create it, give it a away (for a good price) and you don't have it anymore. The asset vanishes from your inventory domain. Regarding the SL compatibility - maybe it doesn't need to be broken. IIRC isn't there this CAPS mechanism that already proxies assets? Couldn't there be some kind of intelligence behind it that collects and distributes assets from the different domains? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Februar 2009 19:57 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage Making a copy is the greater evil. With implicitly shared assets, only content creators create assets. With asset copying, each sale/give creates assets. Take SL: I make a clothing item. I have to make 18 uploads (creating 18 assets) to finally use 2 of the uploaded textures. I have also created 36 wearable assets through this. Then i put that item for sale. 2000 users buy it. With implicitly shared assets, assets consumed: 18 texture, 36 wearable. With asset copying, assets consumed: 4001 texture, 4003 wearable See, the point of diminishing returns for copying is very close. Melanie John Ward wrote: Justin Clark-Casey wrote: The problem is that you may have given that item to somebody else. Giving an item does not make an asset copy, it just makes an inventory item copy (both inventory items still point towards the same asset). So you may delete your item, but we don't know if the asset referenced by that item lives on in someone else's inventory (or in an object inventory). So we can't delete the underlying asset. Why not make an asset copy when one makes an inventory copy? Then delete the asset when deleted from inventory. Is each user having their own copy of many things a bigger problem? I guess this doesn't address one having out of ban knowledge of an assets UUID and expecting it to be there. Also, I accept that I may be missing some fundamental knowledge of how things work. Please be gentle :-) John. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman
Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage
I hope I am not too notorious by stating: - no 'big corp' IT manager will accept a solution with 'uncontrollable growth in asset storage' as Tommi correctly put it. Period. - I learned through Melanie that these issue are well known and already addressed. - I also learned that potential viewer developers are aware of these issues and have it on their list which is great. - I also agree with Stefan that there should be alternative scenarios possible. Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Charles Krinke Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Februar 2009 21:52 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage My goal in starting this whole discussion in the first place was two fold. Fold 1: Get us considering how to evolve OpenSim so that assets database currently containing 1.5million entries and consuming 50GBytes to support 10,000 users does not continue to grow without bound at the current 4GByte/week rate if possible. I see other grid deployments facing a similar issue in their future and some evolution at this point may help us all. Fold 2: I believe there are a few changes such as the last terrain image store that we can change in the near term, and I am hoping we can define a 'reaping' strategy for grids that lets them tame the exponential growth of the 'assets' table in the MySQL database defined by OpenSim as 2009 continues. Charles From: Melanie mela...@t-data.com To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:20:42 PM Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage There are several viewer being developed already and their authors are aware of requirements and responsive to different needs. Mainly, any new viewer will be able to accommodate changes quickly, unlike the LL viewer. So I see no need for a drawn out standardization discussion. This project is in too early a phase for this. Melanie Dirk Krause wrote: Ok, granted. But isn't this a bit chicken/egg here? Possible solution scenarios should define the requirements of the viewer, which probably won't write itself. Esp. when new viewers will be based on openmv somebody should tell John et al. :-). -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Februar 2009 20:42 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage In the viewer, the following are true: - The asset ID attached to an inventory item may not change - The item ID of an inventory item may not change - an asset's content may not change. So, with this client, it's moot. We are exploring other concepts and will be implementing them as and when other clients become usable. Melanie Dirk Krause wrote: There could be business modell attached to it. Lets say you sell only the 'right to use it for a given time' to the user, then you would have only one set of assets with multiple inventory pointers from your 2000 customers. Once you delete/disable it, no one can use it anymore. Once you update it, all 2000 have a newer version of it. The other model would be the 'I buy it so I get a real copy of it'. The asset will be copied (in my scenario to my local inventory domain, so I 'really' own it). If you delete yours, mine is still there. If you update it, I need to obtain a newer copy. There could even be a concept that something is there only once (maybe art); you create it, give it a away (for a good price) and you don't have it anymore. The asset vanishes from your inventory domain. Regarding the SL compatibility - maybe it doesn't need to be broken. IIRC isn't there this CAPS mechanism that already proxies assets? Couldn't there be some kind of intelligence behind it that collects and distributes assets from the different domains? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Februar 2009 19:57 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage Making a copy is the greater evil. With implicitly shared assets, only content creators create assets. With asset copying, each sale/give creates assets. Take SL: I make a clothing item. I have to make 18 uploads (creating 18 assets) to finally use 2 of the uploaded textures. I have also created 36 wearable assets through this. Then i put that item for sale. 2000 users buy it. With implicitly shared assets, assets consumed: 18 texture, 36 wearable. With asset copying, assets consumed: 4001 texture, 4003 wearable See, the point of diminishing returns for copying is very close. Melanie John Ward wrote: Justin Clark-Casey wrote: The problem
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments
Since the display of the media streams are totally unrelated to OpenSim (except invocation and termination), meaning OpenSim only knows the link and the streaming is between the viewer and the streaming server, it shouldn't affect the avatar limit at all, esp when the streaming server is on a different machine. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Geetika S Gesendet: Do 19.02.2009 06:41 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Cc: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de; opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments Is it possible to do multiple webcam streams in a single region? How does that affect the avatar limit? I want to set it up using Darwin. Thanks Geetika Sharma opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de wrote on 02/19/2009 11:05:09 AM: Melanie mela...@t-data.com Sent by: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de 02/19/2009 11:05 AM Please respond to opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de To opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de cc Subject Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments No one has ever gotten there. It has always crashed. Melanie Geetika S wrote: But in any case doing 50+ avatars would be murder, right? Geetika Sharma opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de wrote on 02/19/2009 10:53:04 AM: Melanie mela...@t-data.com Sent by: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de 02/19/2009 10:53 AM Please respond to opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de To opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de cc Subject Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments You can't currently hard-limit anything. We have seen 20+ avatars in regions with 6000+ prims on less memory than that. Generally, avatars take more memory than prims. Melanie Geetika S wrote: Hi If you do provide 1GB per region, what limits does one need to impose on number of avatars, scripts objects etc.? Thanks Geetika Sharma opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de wrote on 02/19/2009 09:52:30 AM: Dahlia Trimble dahliatrim...@gmail.com Sent by: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de 02/19/2009 09:52 AM Please respond to opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de To opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de cc Subject Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments It really matters how much memory the region is using. If you don't have enough, the system will need to use swap space and that will be perceived as lag spurts. How much memory you use is dependent on how many avatars are online, how many prims and how complex they are, and how many scripts are running, among other factors. You can do fine with 512 MB if you control those factors. On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Bernardo Donadio bernardo0...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the quick response, but what can happens if i run for example with 512MB? The server will have a high ping or what? Thanks again for all! As a rule of thumb, 256MB per sim is an operative minimum, but mono really likes to see 1GB per region to be happy. 2009/2/19 Bernardo Donadio bernardo0...@gmail.com Hi! I'm new on OpenSim and I want to make a server. But I don't know what I will need to do one, for a server with only one 256x256 region, and something about 8~10 users at same time, what I will need? The server will run Linux Debian 5.0, probably with an optimized kernel and in a Virtual Machine. Thanks for all! -- Bernardo Donadio -- Bernardo Donadio ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ForwardSourceID:NT5ECE =-=-= Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message and/or attachments to it may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, use, review, distribution, printing or copying of the information contained in this e-mail message and/or attachments to it are strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us by reply e-mail or telephone and immediately and permanently delete the message and any attachments. Thank you ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ForwardSourceID:NT5F0E =-=-= Notice: The information
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments
I always had that on my list to try this, but didn't try it yet :-). As far as I understood you should be able to divide your region in parcels. Each parcel can have a different media stream. So what I wanted to try was to divide one big conference room into N parcels each with a media stream of the participant. This should work with N = not too high :-). But I don't know if the client can display multiple streams, or whether it just plays the stream of the very parcel you stand in. Indeed I would expect that - the number of concurrent streams is limited by the clients connection - the client probably will have problems displaying more than say 3 streams (wild guess) Just open several streams in a browser and you will find the practical limit. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Geetika S Gesendet: Do 19.02.2009 07:04 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments Thanks Dirk. But how does one do multiple simultaneous streams cause the media url can point to only one address? Also, would multiple simultaneous streams slow down the client? Geetika Sharma opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de wrote on 02/19/2009 11:22:27 AM: Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.com Sent by: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de 02/19/2009 11:22 AM Please respond to opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de To opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de cc Subject Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments Since the display of the media streams are totally unrelated to OpenSim (except invocation and termination), meaning OpenSim only knows the link and the streaming is between the viewer and the streaming server, it shouldn't affect the avatar limit at all, esp when the streaming server is on a different machine. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Geetika S Gesendet: Do 19.02.2009 06:41 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Cc: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de; opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments Is it possible to do multiple webcam streams in a single region? How does that affect the avatar limit? I want to set it up using Darwin. Thanks Geetika Sharma opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de wrote on 02/19/2009 11:05:09 AM: Melanie mela...@t-data.com Sent by: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de 02/19/2009 11:05 AM Please respond to opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de To opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de cc Subject Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments No one has ever gotten there. It has always crashed. Melanie Geetika S wrote: But in any case doing 50+ avatars would be murder, right? Geetika Sharma opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de wrote on 02/19/2009 10:53:04 AM: Melanie mela...@t-data.com Sent by: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de 02/19/2009 10:53 AM Please respond to opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de To opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de cc Subject Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments You can't currently hard-limit anything. We have seen 20+ avatars in regions with 6000+ prims on less memory than that. Generally, avatars take more memory than prims. Melanie Geetika S wrote: Hi If you do provide 1GB per region, what limits does one need to impose on number of avatars, scripts objects etc.? Thanks Geetika Sharma opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de wrote on 02/19/2009 09:52:30 AM: Dahlia Trimble dahliatrim...@gmail.com Sent by: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de 02/19/2009 09:52 AM Please respond to opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de To opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de cc Subject Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments It really matters how much memory the region is using. If you don't have enough, the system will need to use swap space and that will be perceived as lag spurts. How much memory you use is dependent on how many avatars are online, how many prims and how complex they are, and how many scripts are running, among other factors. You can do fine with 512 MB if you control those factors. On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Bernardo Donadio bernardo0...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the quick response, but what can happens if i run for example with 512MB? The server will have a high ping or what? Thanks again for all! As a rule of thumb, 256MB per sim is an operative minimum, but mono really likes to see 1GB per region to be happy. 2009/2/19 Bernardo Donadio bernardo0...@gmail.com Hi! I'm new on OpenSim and I want to make a server. But I don't know what I will need to do one, for a server with only one 256x256 region
Re: [Opensim-dev] Please do not revert fixes without carefulcomtemplation [text][bayes]
3. We have a significant number of assets of each and every text edit for each and every textual assets. Where only the last one should be accessible. Unfortunately, this is not the case. For instance, imagine that you create a script in your inventory. You drag this script into a region object. At this point, both the entry in your inventory and the entry in the region point to the same textual asset. But then you edit the script in your inventory. After the edit it points to a new asset containing the edited text. However, the region object is still pointing to the old script asset. So we need to keep both the old and new textual assets. A bit out of scope for this discussion, I'd like to propose a 'ByRef' mode for assets for future server/client versions where you could add say a door script and change it in one place for all of your doors. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Please do not revert fixes without carefulcomtemplation [text][bayes]
Holy Frag. I see now, thanks for he explanation, I didn't know that. This is ... err ... a major issue, to put it mildly. To put it straight this design is a royal pain, and I wonder whether it isn't imperative to address this SL imported issue *before* anyone tries to optimize the hell out of whatever database. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Februar 2009 20:46 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Please do not revert fixes without carefulcomtemplation [text][bayes] OpenSim, and the client, are full of eternal caches. They don't update, there is no TTL, and no update check. Assets are immutable by design and the applications are written to assume that assets will never change. Therefore, the caches never expire. Melanie Dirk Krause wrote: I am afraid I don't understand? Caches are a common concept in web applications too, still I can mail a hard link on every static image on the web. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Melanie Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Februar 2009 20:36 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] Please do not revert fixes without carefulcomtemplation [text][bayes] That won't really work, I'm afraid, because there are some levels of cache involved. Melanie Dirk Krause wrote: 3. We have a significant number of assets of each and every text edit for each and every textual assets. Where only the last one should be accessible. Unfortunately, this is not the case. For instance, imagine that you create a script in your inventory. You drag this script into a region object. At this point, both the entry in your inventory and the entry in the region point to the same textual asset. But then you edit the script in your inventory. After the edit it points to a new asset containing the edited text. However, the region object is still pointing to the old script asset. So we need to keep both the old and new textual assets. A bit out of scope for this discussion, I'd like to propose a 'ByRef' mode for assets for future server/client versions where you could add say a door script and change it in one place for all of your doors. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] [Opensim-users] hypergrid teleportsandnon-hypergrid simulators
Hi, payment is on an per hour basis. There is a calculation tool on the Amazon EC2 website. In general - think 10 cent an hour IIRC. Whoever wants to try EC2, I wrote down how to do this here: http://www.web3d-blog.de/?p=202 Best, Dirk/Bart -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Eugen Leitl Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Februar 2009 12:28 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] [Opensim-users] hypergrid teleportsandnon-hypergrid simulators On Mon, Feb 02, 2009 at 05:12:38PM -0800, Brianna wrote: What we plan to do at our next Regatta is use an Amazon cloud for the event and HG to it. We ran yesterday's regatta on an EC2 instance and How much do you expect to pay to instantiate a single-event in EC? it had excellent xscript performance. This will further accomplish total removal of neighbor region laggy influences and superior load handling. What is the network neighbourhood for two or more instances? I understand EC2 only has good network topology for US clients, though this might have changed meanwhile. It has been reported that LL's Blake Sea opening event, yesterday, was a technical disaster and our OSG vastly out performed them... ty dev team -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] TP protocol handle
just for the record: http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/2009/01/07/addressing-places-in-virtual-worldsor-why-slurls-are-bad/ -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Cristina Videira Lopes Gesendet: Do 29.01.2009 20:05 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: [Opensim-dev] TP protocol handle Hi, I want to take HG TPs to the next logical step and support dynamic links, that is, the ability for the user to simply click on something like this http://ucigrid04.nacs.uci.edu:9003/ and be teleported there from anywhere on the Metaverse. The question is: what should these handles look like? I see a variety of protocol handles out there, and I confess I don't understand entirely how the viewer handles these -- but I'll figure it out. In any case, I see: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Foo/126/32/ secondlife://Foo/126/32/ (this doesn't come underlined on my viewer, for some reason) rezzme://ucigrid04.nacs.uci.edu:9003/Foo/126/32 (this also doesn't come underlined) Obviously, the closest to what we need is the rezzme handler. Is that working already? Should I take that on for the hypergrid? Or something else? Does anyone know if/how the viewer sends that hyperlink clicking event to the server? Crista ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #2: inworld applications
*sigh* http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/01/27/rogue-leaders-excerpt-on-habitat/ -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de im Auftrag von Dahlia Trimble Gesendet: Di 27.01.2009 09:02 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #2: inworld applications Not sure how to get a c64 emulator to work in opensim, but if it can be done it should be playing Habitat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVpulhO3jyc One solution may be to stream a video of the emulator display. On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.comwrote: Hi, this thing came up when I was thinking about what to do for OpenSims 2nd birthday. I thought it would be really funny to reconstruct the Sony Home Arcades in OpenSim, basically for giggles. I unfortunately don't have access to Sony Home for now so I don't know exactly what effort it means to model this, being not a good builder myself (for reference - http://tinyurl.com/def8fn) The interesting point would be the ability to play either MAME or C64 games on the machines in these 'OpenSim Home (tm) Arcades'. So I looked up a C# c64 emulator on the web ( http://tinyurl.com/bobw9y ) but then came to think where such an emulator would run. (the following holds probably true for all kinds of applications running in the OpenSim context, namely: - graphic-heavy c# or c++ applications - flash/silverlight/moonlight applications - 'co-browsing', works in Rex with this nice trick: http://therexfiles.cybertechnews.org/?p=183 ) So, to stick with the arcade example, the good question is - where does the process run? I think there are these possibilities in general 1) SERVER - the application totally runs on the server side. One av takes over the game machine and his key strokes are transmitted to the server (via HUD?) and the emulator creates the graphic output. This would be a series of textures (not really good) or a video stream of sorts. 2) CLIENT - the applications totally runs on the client. This is possibly the easiest way to implement it (and out of scope for opensim-dev) since it needs hacking the client. But just for the record: as soon as the client detects arcade.jp2 as the texture, it fires up ye old space invaders and renders2texture the graphic output to the client. Other people would see either a) nothing but the standard texture as long as they are not playing it or b) a screenshot every 5 secs or so, since the client sends every 5 secs or so a screenshot to the server, updating the view for the cheering bystanders c) the real game, since their clients also fire up the emulator, receive the key strokes from the current player (while they are near him) which must be sent from the server of course. 3) BOTH- the application runs on both server and client with synchronicity calls every N secs with some prediction by the client side when the calls don't get through fast enough (basically like networked physics in professional games works) All in all you are in synchronicity hell the more 'real' the output for everyone gets because there can be no real simultaneousness. So sorted by applications: - Physics: either only server sided (like it is now) which is sufficient for most use cases, or both when the physics is fast and heavy like in games. - Video: Number 2c is used to play video in SL right now - one av activates the script that start the media playing on all clients in the vicinity. if they didn't activate media support then they see nothing. If they did the video starts on all clients, probably 1 to N secs off each, depending on their network, also slowly drifting into asynchronicity the longer the video runs. If it should be more synchronous then a streaming server is mandatory. - Turn based games could be implemented completely on server side. So a simple text adventure (Zork, anyone) or even a MUD could be implemented even on a different server with a gateway of sort. Come to think of it this could even be a tty terminal. Same goes for - co-browsing web pages, powerpoint projectors Could be either server sided (like it is now via the php render trick) or client sided (via the Rex trick) So the interesting part stays where to implement, say, a moonlight application? Let's say people want to create micro/casual games or small apps,then it would be interesting to see whether there would be an infrastructure to hook these things into? I would even go so far that there could be a mechanism that handles LL or OS scripts in a way that it either runs on the client (libomv Test.exe with some script) or on the server side (the existing scripting architecture). Best regards, Dirk/Barth ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev winmail.dat___ Opensim-dev mailing
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #2: inworld applications - access toclient's widget set?
Ah, I wasn’t aware of this technical paper (anymore), thanks for the link. Yes, I am very much hoping that one of these two emerges over the standard viewer. Someone I know recently compiled it, and gathering of libs/versions and compilation seemed to be not for the faint of heart. It seems to be a tad easier with the Hippo trunk. @john: nice picture you paint there ☺. -- Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Dahlia Trimble Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Januar 2009 06:14 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #2: inworld applications - access toclient's widget set? There are two ground up viewer projects that I'm aware of, Idealist and Openviewer. Here is a site which discusses them from a technical perspective: http://playsign.fi/engine/rex/viewerarchs Idealist can be found at: http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Openviewer can be found at: http://openviewer.org/ Then there is the Xenki viewer which aims to be a browser plug-in rather than a standalone viewer. Find it here: http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/xenki/ On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 6:58 PM, John Sheridan j...@pseudospace.net wrote: Well, I'm glad someone's at least taking a swipe at the client from a usability standpoint although it would be nice if they like a few of the other client projects I've seen would consider starting with a ground up rebuild of the code base. At least not only to solve the gpl vs bsd vs insert favorite license here problem but as well to make it so one can actually read and understand the code without loosing all grip on reality (virtual or not) then curling up into a fetal position under their desk while the world around them crumbles into some sort of bad rendering bug ala The Matrix. And yes, for those who actually can read and understand the Linden's coding style I am that much of a wimp. :) Thanks for the info Dahlia, :) - John / Orion Pseudo Dahlia Trimble wrote: That would most likely require modifications to the sl viewer. I think the Imprudence project is looking at providing a viewer with similar capabilities: http://imprudenceviewer.org/ On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 12:18 PM, John Sheridan j...@pseudospace.net wrote: While on the topic of weird ideas and in world apps... I posted this idea to the Lindens about a year ago back when I was first trying to figure out LSL, but it likely went off to the noobie duh bin as at the time I pretty much asked them to include a copy of Visual Basic in world :P Anywho, as it is we already have the LSL language with our own additions via the os functions. What I'm thinking would likely require client modifications which merely makes it something to think about for the future, but why not cobble together something that gives lsl access to the client's widget set? Optimally something like a Mono Winforms type of addition to lsl that would let a scripter actually use a real gui as an interface for their scripts instead of hacking one out with prims or a dialog box? Thanks, :) John / Orion Pseudo Dirk Krause wrote: Hi, this thing came up when I was thinking about what to do for OpenSims 2nd birthday. I thought it would be really funny to reconstruct the Sony Home Arcades in OpenSim, basically for giggles. I unfortunately don't have access to Sony Home for now so I don't know exactly what effort it means to model this, being not a good builder myself (for reference - http://tinyurl.com/def8fn ) The interesting point would be the ability to play either MAME or C64 games on the machines in these 'OpenSim Home (tm) Arcades'. So I looked up a C# c64 emulator on the web ( http://tinyurl.com/bobw9y ) but then came to think where such an emulator would run. (the following holds probably true for all kinds of applications running in the OpenSim context, namely: - graphic-heavy c# or c++ applications - flash/silverlight/moonlight applications - 'co-browsing', works in Rex with this nice trick: http://therexfiles.cybertechnews.org/?p=183 ) So, to stick with the arcade example, the good question is - where does the process run? I think there are these possibilities in general 1) SERVER - the application totally runs on the server side. One av takes over the game machine and his key strokes are transmitted to the server (via HUD?) and the emulator creates the graphic output. This would be a series of textures (not really good) or a video stream of sorts. 2) CLIENT - the applications totally runs on the client. This is possibly the easiest way to implement it (and out of scope for opensim-dev) since it needs hacking the client. But just for the record: as soon as the client detects arcade.jp2 as the texture, it fires up ye old space invaders and renders2texture the graphic output to the client. Other people would see either a) nothing but the standard texture as long
[Opensim-dev] the weird idea collection
Hi, I hope it's ok if I start a couple of mails here with several ideas I initially wanted to bring into the AWG channels, but ... well, you know. Charles' mail and blog entry sort of encouraged me to do so, so blame him :-). If it's not ok, please stop me. Regarding these ideas: some of them might be not feasible, some plain wrong. I suspect most of them are not even weird or new :-/. Thank you for your time. Dirk/Barth ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
[Opensim-dev] weird idea #2: inworld applications
Hi, this thing came up when I was thinking about what to do for OpenSims 2nd birthday. I thought it would be really funny to reconstruct the Sony Home Arcades in OpenSim, basically for giggles. I unfortunately don't have access to Sony Home for now so I don't know exactly what effort it means to model this, being not a good builder myself (for reference - http://tinyurl.com/def8fn ) The interesting point would be the ability to play either MAME or C64 games on the machines in these 'OpenSim Home (tm) Arcades'. So I looked up a C# c64 emulator on the web ( http://tinyurl.com/bobw9y ) but then came to think where such an emulator would run. (the following holds probably true for all kinds of applications running in the OpenSim context, namely: - graphic-heavy c# or c++ applications - flash/silverlight/moonlight applications - 'co-browsing', works in Rex with this nice trick: http://therexfiles.cybertechnews.org/?p=183 ) So, to stick with the arcade example, the good question is - where does the process run? I think there are these possibilities in general 1) SERVER - the application totally runs on the server side. One av takes over the game machine and his key strokes are transmitted to the server (via HUD?) and the emulator creates the graphic output. This would be a series of textures (not really good) or a video stream of sorts. 2) CLIENT - the applications totally runs on the client. This is possibly the easiest way to implement it (and out of scope for opensim-dev) since it needs hacking the client. But just for the record: as soon as the client detects arcade.jp2 as the texture, it fires up ye old space invaders and renders2texture the graphic output to the client. Other people would see either a) nothing but the standard texture as long as they are not playing it or b) a screenshot every 5 secs or so, since the client sends every 5 secs or so a screenshot to the server, updating the view for the cheering bystanders c) the real game, since their clients also fire up the emulator, receive the key strokes from the current player (while they are near him) which must be sent from the server of course. 3) BOTH- the application runs on both server and client with synchronicity calls every N secs with some prediction by the client side when the calls don't get through fast enough (basically like networked physics in professional games works) All in all you are in synchronicity hell the more 'real' the output for everyone gets because there can be no real simultaneousness. So sorted by applications: - Physics: either only server sided (like it is now) which is sufficient for most use cases, or both when the physics is fast and heavy like in games. - Video: Number 2c is used to play video in SL right now - one av activates the script that start the media playing on all clients in the vicinity. if they didn't activate media support then they see nothing. If they did the video starts on all clients, probably 1 to N secs off each, depending on their network, also slowly drifting into asynchronicity the longer the video runs. If it should be more synchronous then a streaming server is mandatory. - Turn based games could be implemented completely on server side. So a simple text adventure (Zork, anyone) or even a MUD could be implemented even on a different server with a gateway of sort. Come to think of it this could even be a tty terminal. Same goes for - co-browsing web pages, powerpoint projectors Could be either server sided (like it is now via the php render trick) or client sided (via the Rex trick) So the interesting part stays where to implement, say, a moonlight application? Let's say people want to create micro/casual games or small apps,then it would be interesting to see whether there would be an infrastructure to hook these things into? I would even go so far that there could be a mechanism that handles LL or OS scripts in a way that it either runs on the client (libomv Test.exe with some script) or on the server side (the existing scripting architecture). Best regards, Dirk/Barth ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins
A sphere. Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Nebadon Izumi Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Januar 2009 20:18 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins I think one thing also needs figuring out is how will appearance be handled for these users, personally i think Anonymous users should be something like a puff of smoke, and not Ruth or even Human appearance, it should be something obvious. Neb ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
