Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Zonja, thank you for your feedback. Has anybody else seen this behaviour, and is it something that has been fixed in subsequent revisions? Best regards, Stefan Andersson Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:15:29 +0200 From: zonja.capal...@gmail.com To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes Hi, I've been running 9561 since last sunday in my own grid and it works quite well. Particularly, a problem with scripts in attachments not running with XEngine has been fixed. Two things I've seen that are nasty: * When I log in, all my attachments are gone, and I have to re-attach them. * If I HG-tp somewhere and I come back home, the terrain in my home region is not painted, and I move funny. I can tp to adjacent regions, tho, where av behaviour is normal (but the home region remains undrawn and with strange properties). Regards, /Zonja On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Stefan Andersson wrote: Okay, so I branched off /branches/0.6.5-rc1 based on 9561, and upped the revision numbers. Please all testers (from now on fondly known as "trunkheads") give that a spin, and give your feedback so we can nail it and update the wiki et c. Best regards, Stefan Andersson Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 22:00:51 -0700 From: nebadon2...@gmail.com To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes 9561 is the last good rev before breakage I vote +1 for it being the release. -- Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Hi, I've been running 9561 since last sunday in my own grid and it works quite well. Particularly, a problem with scripts in attachments not running with XEngine has been fixed. Two things I've seen that are nasty: * When I log in, all my attachments are gone, and I have to re-attach them. * If I HG-tp somewhere and I come back home, the terrain in my home region is not painted, and I move funny. I can tp to adjacent regions, tho, where av behaviour is normal (but the home region remains undrawn and with strange properties). Regards, /Zonja On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Stefan Andersson wrote: > Okay, so I branched off /branches/0.6.5-rc1 based on 9561, and upped the > revision numbers. > > Please all testers (from now on fondly known as "trunkheads") give that a > spin, and give your feedback so we can nail it and update the wiki et c. > > Best regards, > Stefan Andersson > > > > > -- > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 22:00:51 -0700 > From: nebadon2...@gmail.com > To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes > > 9561 is the last good rev before breakage I vote +1 for it being the > release. > > -- > Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org > > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Yes, I've done nothing in trunk. Check out /branches/0.6.5-rc1 Best regards, Stefan Andersson Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 01:31:00 -0700 From: nebadon2...@gmail.com To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes I just updated trunk and its still reading 0.6.4.9611 when the region starts and also when you type "show version". -- Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
I just updated trunk and its still reading 0.6.4.9611 when the region starts and also when you type "show version". -- Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Okay, so I branched off /branches/0.6.5-rc1 based on 9561, and upped the revision numbers. Please all testers (from now on fondly known as "trunkheads") give that a spin, and give your feedback so we can nail it and update the wiki et c. Best regards, Stefan Andersson Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 22:00:51 -0700 From: nebadon2...@gmail.com To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes 9561 is the last good rev before breakage I vote +1 for it being the release. -- Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
9561 is the last good rev before breakage I vote +1 for it being the release. -- Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Can we _please_ post-tag a 0.6.5-rc1, from before the current breaking changeset? Anybody got a good candidate rev? Best regards, Stefan Andersson Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 05:43:06 -0500 From: mark.malew...@gmail.com To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes I completely agree with Charles... It might be good idea to at least try to schedule or group all the ini "breaking" changes together, and also try to implement them as close to a new point release as possible, so that we can at least try to preserve "compatibility" between build versions and "minor update" releases and give users proper notice. By scheduling the "breaking changes" together in groups, it would also give us additional time to update the WIKI pages, and properly document all the new INI changes in an updated "ReadMe" file as well. Mark On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Charles Krinke wrote: We seem to have breaking changes in OpenSim.ini today and I would like to recommend that we slow that down. In the past, we have been very careful about breaking changes in OpenSim.ini to preserve compatibility and go out of our way to send notice. It seems that changing syntax in our .ini file is something that should be done with deliberation and more concern and notice to our users. Charles ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
"Don't panic!" Here's what's going on. Melanie is doing massive coding in a parallel set of projects in trunk, without touching [much] the existing code. Those projects are completely new code. Some of it are new servers; some of it are connectors between the simulator and the [new and old] services. Nothing is particularly unstable, because that new code doesn't run... that is, until I come in to the simulator code and start replacing the existing glue code (AssetCache/Local/OGS1/Hypergrid) with the new connectors, and add their new configuration variables to .ini. What happened last weekend, and the reason why it went wobbly for a couple of days, is that I did that for the old AssetCache, which is now an IAssetService with those configurations that Nebadon already sent out several times. I am *not* going to do the changes for the other services until four things happen: (1) I finish writing documentation about this software architecture. Bear with me. Melanie is faster at coding than I am at writing this, but it's coming to life. (2) We have a discussion here on the -dev mailing list about it, pros and cons, concerns, comments, wishes, etc. (3) There is general agreement that this is AGoodThing(tm). (4) If (3), we make a plan for transitioning the simulator to these new connectors in a way that is a smooth as possible. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
100% agree Dr Scofield wrote: Melanie wrote: MW pretty much reached the conclusion never to use a branch again. It was stated that trunk is a developers' WORK area. well, could it be because of a lack of communication going on, effectively steam rolling MW? It is not meant to be usable all the time. The only requirement is that it compiles. People who want stable should use stable. I think demands that trunk remain usable sets a bad precedent. i don't really believe you want to turn trunk into sandbox, do you? dirk begin:vcard fn:Ideia Boa n:Boa;Ideia note;quoted-printable:Best regards,=0D=0A= Ideia Boa=0D=0A= WorldSimTerra=0D=0A= =0D=0A= Join the new 3D world revolution : http://www.worldsimterra.com/ x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.worldsimterra.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
100% agree Dr Scofield wrote: Melanie wrote: So you say I should spend hours on documentation which I already KNOW it will be obsolete within days? That _is_ just what big corps do. 20% dev time, 80% doc time. nonsense. opensource projects have to have reasonably good communication. an email, a wiki entry just outlining where you want to take the code to, should really not take that much time. begin:vcard fn:Ideia Boa n:Boa;Ideia note;quoted-printable:Best regards,=0D=0A= Ideia Boa=0D=0A= WorldSimTerra=0D=0A= =0D=0A= Join the new 3D world revolution : http://www.worldsimterra.com/ x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.worldsimterra.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
100% agree Dr Scofield wrote: Melanie wrote: Charles, I develop out in the open, commit early and often. Most of these past 100 commits were not meant to be used by anyone but myself and Diva. It's a work in progress in a work area and documentation would have been premature. IMHO that is way too many commits that are not meant to be used by anyone but yourself and diva --- coupled with "stay clear of that, we are going to change it big time" you effectively closing out others who might be working in the same area. IMHO a better way of dealing with this is to document upfront (at least roughly) where you intend to take the code to or else work in branch and do less frequent code drops from there. begin:vcard fn:Ideia Boa n:Boa;Ideia note;quoted-printable:Best regards,=0D=0A= Ideia Boa=0D=0A= WorldSimTerra=0D=0A= =0D=0A= Join the new 3D world revolution : http://www.worldsimterra.com/ x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.worldsimterra.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Diva has documented the work I have committed as well. You just said as much as that it is important that documentation exists, not who does it. Melanie Charles Krinke wrote: > Nebadon, this page, which is a good one, is Diva's and my hat is off to her > for writing a few things down. > > What I am trying to do is convince Melanie that she needs to do something > similar for the work she has committed. > > Charles > > > > > > From: Nebadon Izumi > To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:21:21 AM > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes > > Again documenting is being done, please lets just stop this thread already. > > http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Services_and_Service_Connectors_Configuration > > everytime someone mentions this im simply going to reply with the above link. > > END OF STORY!!! why are we complaining about things that are being done..!!! > > > > > > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Nebadon, this page, which is a good one, is Diva's and my hat is off to her for writing a few things down. What I am trying to do is convince Melanie that she needs to do something similar for the work she has committed. Charles From: Nebadon Izumi To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:21:21 AM Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes Again documenting is being done, please lets just stop this thread already. http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Services_and_Service_Connectors_Configuration everytime someone mentions this im simply going to reply with the above link. END OF STORY!!! why are we complaining about things that are being done..!!! ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 16:54 +, Ryan McDougall wrote: > I want to send my personal thanks out to Melanie and Christine for > their hard work! I'll second that. It is good stuff and by the looks of it helps to improve the overall architecture considerably. > I would like to add my 2 cents for those who will have it: > > - OS should have time-based releases: where there is a time for big > changes, followed by some stabilization, followed by a tag, > rinse-repeat Common practice in lots of projects. Look at Xen for instance (a project I'm very familiar with). Development on unstable moving to a feature freeze. Some stabilization drops and finally to a "release". I'd describe unstable as Charles' best effort. Mostly useable but occasionally broken for short periods. They use a distributed source control system so most real "breaking" development happens in private trees with pulls from unstable to stay in sync until a changeset is ready. Once it is, its pushed to unstable in the form of patches that can be reviewed by the community at large. > - trunk is for developers; branches should be for long-term > experiments or destabilizations -- essentially more than one release > cycle Like unstable above. The distributed source model does help IMO since I can share my tree with others if needed. The Xen model tolerates some pretty big architectural additions but there's still effort in what goes into their HEAD since there are multiple development streams against it at any given time. > - deployment should be done from tags, never trunk Right, completely agree, hopefully with some rc drops so others can kick the tires (and to handle bug fixes against the rc candidate which can be folded back into the trunk). > - OS should change it's official status from alpha to beta software, > and take stabilization and releases more seriously Others have already weighed in negatively on this but I'd agree with beta. It IMO a measure of confidence in use and for good or ill the OpenSim project is getting real use. That being said I think the beta moniker and the extra discipline in development would help build confidence in that user base (and help neew developers that might want to contribute come on board). Just my 2 cents. Mike ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Melanie wrote: > MW pretty much reached the conclusion never to use a branch again. > It was stated that trunk is a developers' WORK area. well, could it be because of a lack of communication going on, effectively steam rolling MW? > > It is not meant to be usable all the time. The only requirement is > that it compiles. > > People who want stable should use stable. I think demands that trunk > remain usable sets a bad precedent. i don't really believe you want to turn trunk into sandbox, do you? dirk -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Melanie wrote: > So you say I should spend hours on documentation which I already > KNOW it will be obsolete within days? > > That _is_ just what big corps do. 20% dev time, 80% doc time. nonsense. opensource projects have to have reasonably good communication. an email, a wiki entry just outlining where you want to take the code to, should really not take that much time. -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Again documenting is being done, please lets just stop this thread already. http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Services_and_Service_Connectors_Configuration everytime someone mentions this im simply going to reply with the above link. END OF STORY!!! why are we complaining about things that are being done..!!! ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Melanie wrote: > Charles, > > I develop out in the open, commit early and often. Most of these > past 100 commits were not meant to be used by anyone but myself and > Diva. It's a work in progress in a work area and documentation would > have been premature. IMHO that is way too many commits that are not meant to be used by anyone but yourself and diva --- coupled with "stay clear of that, we are going to change it big time" you effectively closing out others who might be working in the same area. IMHO a better way of dealing with this is to document upfront (at least roughly) where you intend to take the code to or else work in branch and do less frequent code drops from there. -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
I feel that we should view trunk as our best effort at a functional code base with no guarantee. The most important thing is that it should compile. Beyond that, new checkins that add new features should be explained to the early adopters and testers that are wringing out the details and finding the bugs. Hence my plea for *something* written *sometime*. Our early adopters and testers are our partners in this endeavour. They provide the feedback to the developers and the rest of the community about confidence on Windows/Linux variations, existing inventories, standalone versus grid deployments and regression. This means that in order to have the best efficiency at OpenSim development, a few clues in the form of blogs, wiki paragraphs or even single FAQ entries helps immensely and cuts down on the time the developer has to spend supporting his or her creation. It is entirely reasonable for a developer to enlist help from a member of the community to write those blog, wiki or FAQ entries, and I would urge us all to do so. Charles From: Melanie To: mike.dick...@hp.com; opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:47:19 AM Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes MW pretty much reached the conclusion never to use a branch again. It was stated that trunk is a developers' WORK area. It is not meant to be usable all the time. The only requirement is that it compiles. People who want stable should use stable. I think demands that trunk remain usable sets a bad precedent. Melanie Mike Dickson wrote: > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 16:32 +, Melanie wrote: >> So you say I should spend hours on documentation which I already >> KNOW it will be obsolete within days? >> >> That _is_ just what big corps do. 20% dev time, 80% doc time. >> >> Melanie > > If you're so sure you're going to see that much churn in what you're > doing maybe it should be done in a branch as MW was trying to do so you > spare the rest of the community while you figure it out. Then you can > properly document it when its stabilized and roll it into HEAD when its > ready. > > BTW, the refactoring is *really good work*. OpenSim is a great project > with lots of potential. Just wish it had more discipline (which doesn't > have to translate to only 20% coding time). > > Mike > > > > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
lol beta?? we are no where near beta yet sorry to say.. and most of what you said above Ryan, is already being done as we speak. Again, if you want stable like melanie said use the stable revs... our Wiki can not be made any more clear about this issue, we are all really just wasting time here on this topic i think. If you have not read our download page i suggest everyone here take the time to do so. http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Download ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
I want to send my personal thanks out to Melanie and Christine for their hard work! I wouldn't say 80% doc time is ever required, but I think 10% is a reasonable expectation, as there are downstream people like me who don't necessarily deploy, but as developers *do* need to know what's going on for their own planning. Moreover, the developers within the project who don't happen to be daily involved in your changes, would probably want to know what is happening to the code-base. I would like to add my 2 cents for those who will have it: - OS should have time-based releases: where there is a time for big changes, followed by some stabilization, followed by a tag, rinse-repeat - trunk is for developers; branches should be for long-term experiments or destabilizations -- essentially more than one release cycle - deployment should be done from tags, never trunk - OS should change it's official status from alpha to beta software, and take stabilization and releases more seriously Cheers, On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Melanie wrote: > So you say I should spend hours on documentation which I already > KNOW it will be obsolete within days? > > That _is_ just what big corps do. 20% dev time, 80% doc time. > > Melanie > > Charles Krinke wrote: >> No, this is certainly not a big business development. It is an opensource >> development. >> >> And as such, our early adopters are our partners in this development. >> >> This is a plea to you, Melanie, to write a few blog, wiki, or FAQ entries, >> or mentor someone to write them for you. >> >> For an example, see Adam's blog where he has described his work on MRM along >> the way. And that is very good. It allows early adoptors to have a bit of an >> understanding of what has been created. >> >> If you would merely consider writing down a few things once in a while, then >> I think this whole situation will get better for you. >> >> Charles >> >> >> >> >> ____ >> From: Melanie >> To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:05:11 AM >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes >> >> Charles, >> >> I develop out in the open, commit early and often. Most of these >> past 100 commits were not meant to be used by anyone but myself and >> Diva. It's a work in progress in a work area and documentation would >> have been premature. >> >> The asset system, since it now functions, can and will be >> documented. But to demand big$$$business development and >> documentation practices is not what opensim is about. Trunk is >> supposed to be broken and usually is. Even if the brokenness only >> consists in no one being able to use it. We can't document when it >> is expected that everything will change again anyway. >> >> This is a huge refactor. We had them before, where trunk was >> unusable for months on end. This is another one of them. Please bear >> with us. >> >> Melanie >> >> Charles Krinke wrote: >>> No, this is not talking about anything to death, Melanie. This is about >>> writing down for others to read and understand at least *some* of what you >>> are trying to accomplish. >>> >>> This can be done via blogs, wiki paragraphs, FAQ, or other. >>> >>> This feeling has been a long time coming, Melanie, and this is a plea for >>> you to write down at least *some* of what you are doing so that there are >>> clues for the early adopters to read and understand. >>> >>> Charles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Melanie >>> To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:47:55 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes >>> >>> Well said. Trunk is supposed to be the developers' work area. If we >>> can't use trunk as a work area anymore, maybe things should be in >>> branches! >>> This is work in progress, and there will be breaking changes, and >>> lots more. Documenting as we go it not an option, since we >>> frequently have to go back and change things after the fact. Much >>> easier to document when it's done than to keep remembering what is >>> already on the wiki and where, and to update it whenever some small >>> thing needs to be changed. >>> This is about code development, not about the general usability of >>> trunk. Trunk is supposed to be broken, we have releases for people >>&
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Melanie wrote: > MW pretty much reached the conclusion never to use a branch again. > It was stated that trunk is a developers' WORK area. > > It is not meant to be usable all the time. The only requirement is > that it compiles. > just remember when you "circle the wagons" GUNS FACE OUTWARDS i for one don't want to see this refactor project block the "complete LSL2 support" project. -- Robert L Martin ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
MW pretty much reached the conclusion never to use a branch again. It was stated that trunk is a developers' WORK area. It is not meant to be usable all the time. The only requirement is that it compiles. People who want stable should use stable. I think demands that trunk remain usable sets a bad precedent. Melanie Mike Dickson wrote: > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 16:32 +, Melanie wrote: >> So you say I should spend hours on documentation which I already >> KNOW it will be obsolete within days? >> >> That _is_ just what big corps do. 20% dev time, 80% doc time. >> >> Melanie > > If you're so sure you're going to see that much churn in what you're > doing maybe it should be done in a branch as MW was trying to do so you > spare the rest of the community while you figure it out. Then you can > properly document it when its stabilized and roll it into HEAD when its > ready. > > BTW, the refactoring is *really good work*. OpenSim is a great project > with lots of potential. Just wish it had more discipline (which doesn't > have to translate to only 20% coding time). > > Mike > > > > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 16:32 +, Melanie wrote: > So you say I should spend hours on documentation which I already > KNOW it will be obsolete within days? > > That _is_ just what big corps do. 20% dev time, 80% doc time. > > Melanie If you're so sure you're going to see that much churn in what you're doing maybe it should be done in a branch as MW was trying to do so you spare the rest of the community while you figure it out. Then you can properly document it when its stabilized and roll it into HEAD when its ready. BTW, the refactoring is *really good work*. OpenSim is a great project with lots of potential. Just wish it had more discipline (which doesn't have to translate to only 20% coding time). Mike ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
So you say I should spend hours on documentation which I already KNOW it will be obsolete within days? That _is_ just what big corps do. 20% dev time, 80% doc time. Melanie Charles Krinke wrote: > No, this is certainly not a big business development. It is an opensource > development. > > And as such, our early adopters are our partners in this development. > > This is a plea to you, Melanie, to write a few blog, wiki, or FAQ entries, or > mentor someone to write them for you. > > For an example, see Adam's blog where he has described his work on MRM along > the way. And that is very good. It allows early adoptors to have a bit of an > understanding of what has been created. > > If you would merely consider writing down a few things once in a while, then > I think this whole situation will get better for you. > > Charles > > > > > > From: Melanie > To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:05:11 AM > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes > > Charles, > > I develop out in the open, commit early and often. Most of these > past 100 commits were not meant to be used by anyone but myself and > Diva. It's a work in progress in a work area and documentation would > have been premature. > > The asset system, since it now functions, can and will be > documented. But to demand big$$$business development and > documentation practices is not what opensim is about. Trunk is > supposed to be broken and usually is. Even if the brokenness only > consists in no one being able to use it. We can't document when it > is expected that everything will change again anyway. > > This is a huge refactor. We had them before, where trunk was > unusable for months on end. This is another one of them. Please bear > with us. > > Melanie > > Charles Krinke wrote: >> No, this is not talking about anything to death, Melanie. This is about >> writing down for others to read and understand at least *some* of what you >> are trying to accomplish. >> >> This can be done via blogs, wiki paragraphs, FAQ, or other. >> >> This feeling has been a long time coming, Melanie, and this is a plea for >> you to write down at least *some* of what you are doing so that there are >> clues for the early adopters to read and understand. >> >> Charles >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Melanie >> To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:47:55 AM >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes >> >> Well said. Trunk is supposed to be the developers' work area. If we >> can't use trunk as a work area anymore, maybe things should be in >> branches! >> This is work in progress, and there will be breaking changes, and >> lots more. Documenting as we go it not an option, since we >> frequently have to go back and change things after the fact. Much >> easier to document when it's done than to keep remembering what is >> already on the wiki and where, and to update it whenever some small >> thing needs to be changed. >> This is about code development, not about the general usability of >> trunk. Trunk is supposed to be broken, we have releases for people >> who expect things to JustWork(tm). >> >> Now, let's get this work done and not talk it to death in committee. >> >> Melanie >> >> Nebadon Izumi wrote: >>> I have to somewhat disagree here, not fully though, while i do agree perhaps >>> there can be better ways of informing everyone, I do not agree with lumping >>> all changes into 1 update, this is an Alpha level development project, >>> whatever happened to Trunk is supposed to be broken. My only suggestion to >>> those who find difficulties at the time being midway through this refactor >>> process, do not upgrade your regions beyond 9561 for the time being, and >>> when the refactoring is complete we will sound the all clear whistle. But >>> for now expecting this to be perfect 1/2 through a giant refactoring is >>> probably not something any of us should do. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>> Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >> __
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
No, this is certainly not a big business development. It is an opensource development. And as such, our early adopters are our partners in this development. This is a plea to you, Melanie, to write a few blog, wiki, or FAQ entries, or mentor someone to write them for you. For an example, see Adam's blog where he has described his work on MRM along the way. And that is very good. It allows early adoptors to have a bit of an understanding of what has been created. If you would merely consider writing down a few things once in a while, then I think this whole situation will get better for you. Charles From: Melanie To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:05:11 AM Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes Charles, I develop out in the open, commit early and often. Most of these past 100 commits were not meant to be used by anyone but myself and Diva. It's a work in progress in a work area and documentation would have been premature. The asset system, since it now functions, can and will be documented. But to demand big$$$business development and documentation practices is not what opensim is about. Trunk is supposed to be broken and usually is. Even if the brokenness only consists in no one being able to use it. We can't document when it is expected that everything will change again anyway. This is a huge refactor. We had them before, where trunk was unusable for months on end. This is another one of them. Please bear with us. Melanie Charles Krinke wrote: > No, this is not talking about anything to death, Melanie. This is about > writing down for others to read and understand at least *some* of what you > are trying to accomplish. > > This can be done via blogs, wiki paragraphs, FAQ, or other. > > This feeling has been a long time coming, Melanie, and this is a plea for you > to write down at least *some* of what you are doing so that there are clues > for the early adopters to read and understand. > > Charles > > > > > > From: Melanie > To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:47:55 AM > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes > > Well said. Trunk is supposed to be the developers' work area. If we > can't use trunk as a work area anymore, maybe things should be in > branches! > This is work in progress, and there will be breaking changes, and > lots more. Documenting as we go it not an option, since we > frequently have to go back and change things after the fact. Much > easier to document when it's done than to keep remembering what is > already on the wiki and where, and to update it whenever some small > thing needs to be changed. > This is about code development, not about the general usability of > trunk. Trunk is supposed to be broken, we have releases for people > who expect things to JustWork(tm). > > Now, let's get this work done and not talk it to death in committee. > > Melanie > > Nebadon Izumi wrote: >> I have to somewhat disagree here, not fully though, while i do agree perhaps >> there can be better ways of informing everyone, I do not agree with lumping >> all changes into 1 update, this is an Alpha level development project, >> whatever happened to Trunk is supposed to be broken. My only suggestion to >> those who find difficulties at the time being midway through this refactor >> process, do not upgrade your regions beyond 9561 for the time being, and >> when the refactoring is complete we will sound the all clear whistle. But >> for now expecting this to be perfect 1/2 through a giant refactoring is >> probably not something any of us should do. >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Opensim-dev mailing list >> Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > > > > > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Charles, I develop out in the open, commit early and often. Most of these past 100 commits were not meant to be used by anyone but myself and Diva. It's a work in progress in a work area and documentation would have been premature. The asset system, since it now functions, can and will be documented. But to demand big$$$business development and documentation practices is not what opensim is about. Trunk is supposed to be broken and usually is. Even if the brokenness only consists in no one being able to use it. We can't document when it is expected that everything will change again anyway. This is a huge refactor. We had them before, where trunk was unusable for months on end. This is another one of them. Please bear with us. Melanie Charles Krinke wrote: > No, this is not talking about anything to death, Melanie. This is about > writing down for others to read and understand at least *some* of what you > are trying to accomplish. > > This can be done via blogs, wiki paragraphs, FAQ, or other. > > This feeling has been a long time coming, Melanie, and this is a plea for you > to write down at least *some* of what you are doing so that there are clues > for the early adopters to read and understand. > > Charles > > > > > > From: Melanie > To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:47:55 AM > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes > > Well said. Trunk is supposed to be the developers' work area. If we > can't use trunk as a work area anymore, maybe things should be in > branches! > This is work in progress, and there will be breaking changes, and > lots more. Documenting as we go it not an option, since we > frequently have to go back and change things after the fact. Much > easier to document when it's done than to keep remembering what is > already on the wiki and where, and to update it whenever some small > thing needs to be changed. > This is about code development, not about the general usability of > trunk. Trunk is supposed to be broken, we have releases for people > who expect things to JustWork(tm). > > Now, let's get this work done and not talk it to death in committee. > > Melanie > > Nebadon Izumi wrote: >> I have to somewhat disagree here, not fully though, while i do agree perhaps >> there can be better ways of informing everyone, I do not agree with lumping >> all changes into 1 update, this is an Alpha level development project, >> whatever happened to Trunk is supposed to be broken. My only suggestion to >> those who find difficulties at the time being midway through this refactor >> process, do not upgrade your regions beyond 9561 for the time being, and >> when the refactoring is complete we will sound the all clear whistle. But >> for now expecting this to be perfect 1/2 through a giant refactoring is >> probably not something any of us should do. >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Opensim-dev mailing list >> Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > > > > > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
just in case everyone missed it, i am pretty sure everything done so far has been documented on the wiki as suggested. the link is here: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Services_and_Service_Connectors_Configuration ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
No, this is not talking about anything to death, Melanie. This is about writing down for others to read and understand at least *some* of what you are trying to accomplish. This can be done via blogs, wiki paragraphs, FAQ, or other. This feeling has been a long time coming, Melanie, and this is a plea for you to write down at least *some* of what you are doing so that there are clues for the early adopters to read and understand. Charles From: Melanie To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:47:55 AM Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes Well said. Trunk is supposed to be the developers' work area. If we can't use trunk as a work area anymore, maybe things should be in branches! This is work in progress, and there will be breaking changes, and lots more. Documenting as we go it not an option, since we frequently have to go back and change things after the fact. Much easier to document when it's done than to keep remembering what is already on the wiki and where, and to update it whenever some small thing needs to be changed. This is about code development, not about the general usability of trunk. Trunk is supposed to be broken, we have releases for people who expect things to JustWork(tm). Now, let's get this work done and not talk it to death in committee. Melanie Nebadon Izumi wrote: > I have to somewhat disagree here, not fully though, while i do agree perhaps > there can be better ways of informing everyone, I do not agree with lumping > all changes into 1 update, this is an Alpha level development project, > whatever happened to Trunk is supposed to be broken. My only suggestion to > those who find difficulties at the time being midway through this refactor > process, do not upgrade your regions beyond 9561 for the time being, and > when the refactoring is complete we will sound the all clear whistle. But > for now expecting this to be perfect 1/2 through a giant refactoring is > probably not something any of us should do. > > > > > > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
Well said. Trunk is supposed to be the developers' work area. If we can't use trunk as a work area anymore, maybe things should be in branches! This is work in progress, and there will be breaking changes, and lots more. Documenting as we go it not an option, since we frequently have to go back and change things after the fact. Much easier to document when it's done than to keep remembering what is already on the wiki and where, and to update it whenever some small thing needs to be changed. This is about code development, not about the general usability of trunk. Trunk is supposed to be broken, we have releases for people who expect things to JustWork(tm). Now, let's get this work done and not talk it to death in committee. Melanie Nebadon Izumi wrote: > I have to somewhat disagree here, not fully though, while i do agree perhaps > there can be better ways of informing everyone, I do not agree with lumping > all changes into 1 update, this is an Alpha level development project, > whatever happened to Trunk is supposed to be broken. My only suggestion to > those who find difficulties at the time being midway through this refactor > process, do not upgrade your regions beyond 9561 for the time being, and > when the refactoring is complete we will sound the all clear whistle. But > for now expecting this to be perfect 1/2 through a giant refactoring is > probably not something any of us should do. > > > > > > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
I have to somewhat disagree here, not fully though, while i do agree perhaps there can be better ways of informing everyone, I do not agree with lumping all changes into 1 update, this is an Alpha level development project, whatever happened to Trunk is supposed to be broken. My only suggestion to those who find difficulties at the time being midway through this refactor process, do not upgrade your regions beyond 9561 for the time being, and when the refactoring is complete we will sound the all clear whistle. But for now expecting this to be perfect 1/2 through a giant refactoring is probably not something any of us should do. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] breaking OpenSim.ini changes
I completely agree with Charles... It might be good idea to at least try to schedule or group all the ini "breaking" changes together, and also try to implement them as close to a new point release as possible, so that we can at least try to preserve "compatibility" between build versions and "minor update" releases and give users proper notice. By scheduling the "breaking changes" together in groups, it would also give us additional time to update the WIKI pages, and properly document all the new INI changes in an updated "ReadMe" file as well. Mark On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Charles Krinke wrote: > We seem to have breaking changes in OpenSim.ini today and I would like to > recommend that we slow that down. > > In the past, we have been very careful about breaking changes in > OpenSim.ini to preserve compatibility and go out of our way to send notice. > It seems that changing syntax in our .ini file is something that should be > done with deliberation and more concern and notice to our users. > > Charles > > ___ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
