Re: [osol-discuss] An Open Letter to the Solaris Community.
Which desktop are you running? KDE (as a user) and Gnome (a rare root session, occasionally as a user) and xterm (skills playground) with no problems so far. It works for you but when it comes to stability I've found it lacking. That's fine. It's very likely explained by the difference in our focus of use, which effectively defines the differences in our resulting experiences. :-) I'm a management kinda guy - I outsource all that kinda stuff ;-) hahahahanice touch. As for your Solaris experience - if you'er running a desktop, grab a copy of SXDE or SXCE - latest features, no more bug ridden than Fedora and pretty damn reliable. Basing a review on Solaris 11/06 is pretty premature given the *cough* mature nature of Solaris 10. Well, I tried this whole Solaris on my notebook thing on a lark anyway, because of my affection for Solaris; regardless of her age, she's still a beauty to me. Anyone looking for depth and quality is going to find it in abundance in Solaris. I also want to be clear -because it is important to note in this forum- that it was my ignorance of the available code bases which led to a poor choice, not any flaws in Solaris itself...I just went with what I know. And, though I knew OpenSolaris was here, I had not looked at it closely, until now. Clearly, there are offerings that are going to work just fine, and I am looking forward to installing them. Therefore, by any measure of reason and integrity, I am compelled to concede your point that that my evaluation is premature, that it was directed at the wrong product, and therefore lacks value in this forum -other than to serve as a warning of the problems that may arise as a result of exercising a little knowledge. I'll give SXDE or SXCE a shot on one of my test boxes. I have a lot of hardware, which I use for different platform integration configurations. Sometimes, pieces of it sit here for a week or so, which presents an occasional opportunity to play in the sandbox. FYI: I dl'ed several of the OpenSolaris bases yesterday, with the intent of installing one on this notebook; I'll let you know how it goes. I will give Solaris Express a shot at the HD and the beleniX live DVD version an occasional spin to watch it grow. ejm This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] An Open Letter to the Solaris Community.
Nice Job! Persistence and creativity are excellent traits. It really is not a matter of giving up, though. As I said, if I had another notebook, I'd give it a shot but this is my only notebook, currently and I use it for business, every day. Also, I do run as many as six, x86 and x86-64 Solaris Server builds at a time for client simulations (usually 1-3). So, when I pick up my new notebook, I'll give it a shot once again. I may try it on this box one more time, today, using OpenSolaris, as David Comay, was kind enough to suggest this as an alternative, and I haven't really built much on it except a few new email addresses. If I do it, I'll report back with the results. I'm off to build a DVD I guess. ejm This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] An Open Letter to the Solaris Community.
On Mon, 2007-07-30 at 12:11 -0700, Edward McAuley wrote: Uh, let's see. Beautiful interface (as attractive as the Mac or Vista), intuitively laid out, ease of use, UNIX (like), open source...it's already here. You can download it or buy it. Suse 10.2 Please look at this latest version, it is stunning. The beautifully designed and intuitive layout of its desktop is very difficult to communicate until you spin it up and use it for a while. Give it a look; the price is certainly right. 've used SuSE 10.2 - if you're happy to avoid the bugs that you can fly a 747 through. Beta quality compilers, drivers and libraries. Crappy KDE/OpenOffice.org integration (specifically kslaves/openoffice.org) - its horrific - ship first, hide bugs hopeing they won't get found. Lord knows I don't want to see Solaris turn into a dumping site for bad code. Matthew ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org Well Matthew, you seem like a thoughtful guy. Here's my take: SuSE Linux installed perfectly on this HP dv4217cl (dv4000) notebook, requiring only that I install an RPM for the wireless network card that was supplied on the non-oss cd. It works flawlessly, after two days of fairly intense use. I'll be happy to report back over the next couple of weeks, if you like. No problems with CD-ROMS or anything else. It has a beautiful and very intuitive user interface and I like it. I had one OpenOffice crash the second time I executed Writer, but in fairness, it recovered within about 2 seconds and I haven't had the problem since. The drivers have worked flawlessly on all of my SuSE installations, so maybe I am not using the same hardware you are deploying; but my H/W is pretty diverse and I am not experiencing the problems you've mentioned with 10.2. If one wants compilers, that's fine. There are about a go-zillion sources for free and/or commercial compilers. One may take aim at some and pull the trigger. My point is about the base system: it works and it is intuitive. When I installed FreeBSD 6.2 on this notebook, the installation was excellent! The OS worked fine, and while having FreeBSD on my notebook was kind of fun (in a geek way...you know how it is), its functionality is not well integrated enough for common daily use; that's okay because it is not intended for common, daily use, just as Solaris is not intended for common use -though FreeBSD did pretty well. I do know I could get it to work much better, if I took the time, but I did not like its style of interaction, on a notebook. I have it running on a couple of other boxes, so I continue to work with it on those boxes. But make no mistake about it, FreeBSD worked flawlessly and its install (text based) was quite aggressive in making the proper suggestions and selections (which is a refreshing change for FreeBSD). And, even with its becoming better and more user friendly, I doubt anyone would say that it is now, somehow, less robust. So, I gave Solaris 10 (11/06) a shot. Solaris barfed all over me; like a girlfriend you love but who just can't get it together, it wouldn't get past the initial display probe and gave me an unintelligible (read bank) GUI screen. So it was a text based install, which I don't mind, as with FreeBSD, it was like the good old days! So I fired up the games PacMan and Tetris on a crappy Windows 3.1 box and drank a New York Seltzer (Root Beer, of course) and watched Back to the Future -which also seems oddly antiquated these days (go figure), while it installed. Then however, I began experiencing other issues with Solaris on this notebook, that were not trivial, so I tossed Solaris, Matthew, it just didn't work. Now, I like Solaris and I run it on several boxes but the mission of the notebook (in keeping with the mission of the IBM notebook to which you refer) is to work, so I won't be using it as a lab rat (though if I had another, additional notebook, that's exactly what I'd do). I'd give Solaris another run but this SuSE interface is so good, I don't know what my reasoning would have to be, in order to waste my time on that pursuit, again. And, I am sure I do not understand the logic in your point, from the outset. Is your point that an OS that works flawlessly on some systems but not on others, is inferior? If that's your point, you'll need to look at Solaris with the same prejudice you're using when looking at SuSE. Or, are you just defending the Solaris turf? Because I am a huge fan of Solaris, but no matter how many times I repeated my undying affection during the installation, it did not work on this notebook, for more significant reasons than a failure to recognize a CD Writer. I think that is the point of this whole thread, right? People are hoping to make a more usable Solaris, in order to gain a broader install base, gaining all
Re: [osol-discuss] An Open Letter to the Solaris Community.
Uh, let's see. Beautiful interface (as attractive as the Mac or Vista), intuitively laid out, ease of use, UNIX (like), open source...it's already here. You can download it or buy it. Suse 10.2 Please look at this latest version, it is stunning. The beautifully designed and intuitive layout of its desktop is very difficult to communicate until you spin it up and use it for a while. Give it a look; the price is certainly right. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Drivers for ATI X1900
Thank you Alan. I am somewhat confused regarding their approach. They are saying the are going to deliver these drivers, on one hand, but on the other hand they are claiming they cannot because they don't own all of the IP (that part of the development efforts are owned and copyrighted by other companies). It sounds like what happened when Sun released the bulk of StarOffice into the open source community for the development of OpenOffice -a huge contribution. They were unable to release parts of it due to ownership and copyrights. The difference here is that I haven't seen ATI release anything, yet. However, they are saying they are committed to it and I have heard that they are expanding their development teams, which seems to support their statements. I am new to this issue, and I do not know all of the specifics but I am not one to be too impatient, especially when a company is trying to change its culture and philosophy. Also as I know development time can be protracted in this kind of situation, depending on how much of the code they need to re-write, and they may still be trying to nail down the legal strategy and logistics of their new licensing. What do you think? ejm This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] An Open Letter to the Solaris Community.
The argument I hear -and have sometimes made is: Microsoft got into the back office -with a very lame server operating system, because it was ubiquitous and perceived as easy to use, versus Novell, Banyan, UNIX, MVS, VMS, etc., at the time. Microsoft became ubiquitous because IBM was ubiquitous. IBM was the micro business machine, because they opened their platform to developers. It was ubiquitous on the home desktop and in the workplace not necessarily because it offered a broad selection of software ideas and because it was accessible for profit to the programmers. If we go back in time for a minute, and remember that Novell pinned its development to DOS and even though it was better at the time (NDS, etc.), it was very obvious that all Microsoft had to do was throw money and talent at the Novell problem, which they did successfully. Windows Server, regardless of its weaknesses at the time had meaning. For those hoping to enter that market as Systems Engineers, that perception of easy meant they had hope and salvation, or at least an entry-level place to start. For corporations, it meant they would soon have a commodity work force, who was just happy to be there. What congress could not do with the tax laws, Microsoft did with its servers; and recruiting firms, through the establishment of the NACCB did the rest with their lobbying efforts (“But I thought talent agents were only allowed to charge 10%, Mom.” “Yes, that’s right Johnny, unless they’re computer talent agents, because we need a cheap computer workforce for the next several generations” “But is that really fair, Mom? Isn’t that illegal? Aren’t the companies’ paying the same amount or more anyway? Isn’t it anti-competitive to single-out one group of entrepreneurs, force them into a special set of rules and disallow them from taking part in the dream of owning an independent business, just because they are in demand?” “No Johnny, it isn’t, if you make it legal by enacting a law.” “Now, go to your room Johnny, you’re making the nice CEO and the Senator nervous”). People and companies deployed Windows servers not because it was better but because it was easier. No one trusted their mission critical applications to it, for a long time, and in many areas of the enterprise they still do not, with good reason. It was deployed because held lots of promises for lots of constituencies. Microsoft knew that and they are excellent sales people. And, it kept most of those promises. However, in thinking through this and in reading some of these posts, I truly do think that the time, and that opportunity for ubiquity on the desktop, has past -for several reasons: 1. No one is going allow themselves to be held hostage to a single vendor any longer. That may not be the impetus for the origin of the open source projects, but that desire for autonomy, ultimately became the largest driving force. 2. There is significant competition among many flavors of the same thing (i.e. 'NIX) and all of it connects well to its competitors. 3. The competition for the server market will force Microsoft to become a commodity product who offers professional services...just like everyone else. Microsoft had barely begun to be taken seriously in 1997 when Linux had already garnered 17% of the new server market. Remember, Win2000 Adv. Svr. (arguably their first decent offering) did not arrive until 2001. I don't know much about about Svr 2K8 but 2K3 is a very large, heavy OS, that literally pleads and begs its admins. NOT to do certain things, that could take out the entire server base, in a given forest if executed properly (improperly, is a more accurate word). It is an unwieldy, heavy, high flying, complex, web of administration and replication connectivity, that could crash at any moment if treated with malicious intent. It's not unlike the Winchester Mystery house in some ways. 4. Many things will force MS to try to merge/buy a 'NIX vendor but the computing and business worlds will NOT allow it -and regulators will not allow it. If they are not allowed, due to the potential anti-trust or monopolistic implications, they'll make sweet-heart deals to stay alive and viable, using their power in the marketplace to pit one vendor against another, etc. (I mean offer incentives that are beneficial to vendors at different levels ;) ). 5. The competition for the desktop mind-share has already begun to erode Microsoft's hold. When considering the ease of connectivity of the front-end clients with the back-end server base, and their ability to replicate highly customized Standard Desktops, the 'NIXs have established a well-defended and significant beachhead. Corporations are deploying ‘NIX standard desktops in the hundreds of thousands and the only thing keeping the numbers from growing exponentially faster, are the astronomical fees the Vendors and VARs are charging for
Re: [osol-discuss] new to solaris, can you answer some questions please?
spy153, The answer to your original question regarding the installation of applications, is an emphatic NO! Solaris is NOT as easy as windows for the installation of many applications. Also, to be clear, the applications you run on Windows WILL NOT work on Solaris without using some form of virtualization/simulation...if they work at all. Though many of your devices can be made to work, it will be a process, not an event, with a required learning curve to make many of those devices functional. Consider the following: Windows was designed to be an end user (pejoratively stated as lame user, or luser) system. It has struggled over the years to become an *almost* respectable Server Operating System (albeit with many significant weaknesses), and to many peoples' way of thinking, it has not done well. No matter; it's servers are functional and it is deployed claiming 10s of millions of installations, across the enterprise, and around the world. Specifically it has achieved this ubiquity because it is perceived to be easy to use. UNIX on the other hand, has been file based, switch based, Server Operating System from the outset. It is superior to Windows in many, many ways, as a Server OS. Though, aside from this powerful role as a Network Server, UNIX had no incentive or aspirations to be anything other than maybe a very high end workstation (say for the use of CAD graphic design software used in the development of microprocessors, machine components, etc.) until Linux came along. So, while Microsoft was trying to become both, UNIX was not really that interested. And, everything about it was painfully expensive! When Linux arrived, its new and fledgling community saw the superiority of 'NIX based process handling, data processing and true multi-user environment as a powerful advantage over the Windows OS -though it's certainly not the end all, be all and has weaknesses of it's own (can you say non-recoverable and kernel panic?). From that point forward, as Linux has set a standard in the 'NIX community of being both a Server OS and a Desktop OS, the UNIX world has followed. I was in a Solaris class in 1995 (2.4 I think) and we were discussing x86 installations. This was fairly revolutionary for UNIX at the time (I mean you had xenix and a few other code bases, but no serious and pervasive movement). You know, there just was no perception that there might be good money involved, in the amounts that would justify all that new code. It's kind of funny looking back on it because it really didn't cost anywhere near what they thought it would, thanks to all of the free donations of time from the various communities. Corporations are taking those free code bases and making Billions of Dollars, hand over fist, as they continuously ship the engineering jobs overseas and routinely cut the salaries of the engineers who created all of that free code base. You think they'd get enough at some point, eh? We are a weird group. We want to be Joe Cool (read Superman), but we want to save the world! We want to make software free, but we want to keep earning a decent salary. Oops, too late. Now you have open-source everything (EXCEPT THE DAMN DRIVERS I NEED TO RUN X1900 ATI CARD ON SOLARIS 10!). Open Solaris, Open Darwin, FreeBSD, zillions of Linuxes based on some primary distributions such as Debian and Slackware, as well as the Redhats and SuSEs of the world. So, Solaris (and other UNIXs) is still struggling to become a user friendly. But, we should not kid ourselves, there is and always has been, and will likely continue to be, a certain amount of contempt toward the ignorant 'luser' class from the 'NIX community, which often presents a roadblock to that goal of being too user friendly. You see, oddly enough, some people, while they want ubiquity of the 'NIX systems, can't stand the idea of ignorant people, asking dumb questions, while using *their* powerful operating system(s). Also, if everyone becomes savvy with UNIX (very unlikely by the way), there would be a problem with finding value with all of us Network Operations Engineers, Systems Administrators, Enterprise Architects, etc., and we're already in a bind, what with all of this free code (for which we've made zero dollars) and outsourcing of our jobs. Also, in what way and for what cause might we sneer at the general public on that day, we'd have no unique dignity left at all! Nah, it's just too risky!...even if it is that sneering arrogance that kept UNIX in the dark for so many years, frustrating the very people offering the sneer, why change now? This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Drivers for ATI X1900
Hi folks, Is anyone aware of a source who has drivers for the ATI X1900 that will work on Solaris 10? Alternatively does anyone know of someone who has a build plan specifying an acceptable version of X11 or xorg, the proper libraries, etc., and maybe a make procedure, to build a driver from source code? Does anyone know if the source code is even available (I have been searching but no joy). I am reading that one is supposed to be available in July, and in speaking with ATI Tech. Support I got a wink, wink, nudge, nudge...July date as well. It's almost August and I have seen nothing from ATI yet. Did I miss the release somewhere on their site? dh This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] new to solaris, can you answer some questions please?
;) This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Drivers for ATI X1900
Thanks Ken. I'll track this stuff down and if I find joy, I'll come back with the answers and procedures, in detail. ejm This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
