[opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
Files deleted by the SL uninstaller don't appear in the Recycle Bin on my Windows XP system. It seems to me it would be better if they did. Some files deleted by some other programs do appear in the Recycle Bin. In the case that brought this to my attention, it was the uninstaller for the SL Development Viewer and what it deleted was all my chat history, which could have been 7 years of chat history. The uninstaller asks if you want to delete files left in the SL program files folder and then if you answer yes it proceeds to delete not only files in the SL program folder, it also deletes files in the Application Data and Local Settings folder, including files that were created by TPVs. Obviously the uninstaller shouldn't irreplacable user data without asking, as it does, or data in folders created by other programs, as it does, nor should the deletion process be without an easily activated STOP DELETING control, but despite those problems, the damage would be mitigated if one could restore the file from their Recycle Bin or appropriate equivalent. So, is there some reason why these deleted files don't go to the recycle bin? -- v i r t u a l w o r l d e n t h u s i a s t -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e -- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:51 PM, SuezanneC Baskerville wrote: > The uninstaller asks if you want to delete files left in the SL program > files folder and then if you answer yes it proceeds to delete not only files > in the SL program folder, it also deletes files in the Application Data and > Local Settings folder, including files that were created by TPVs. the problem is in two parts 1 the uninstaller is being unclear and "helpful" 2 best practices for a TPV would be to use its own folder by default (with maybe doing a copy of the avatar log files and such) -- Robert L Martin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
Those two parts are not the sum of the problem. Deleted files can appear in the Recycle Bin, which would allow the user to restore them without the use of any special file undelete utitilities. The files SL deletes don't. Someone should check to make sure I'm wrong. TPVs aren't always going to follow best practices any more than LL is going to always follow best practice. Best practice would be that if you ask about deleting files in C:\Program Files\SecondLifeDevelopment, you confine your deletions to files in those folders. Regardless of the flaws in the uninstaller's logic, the question I'm asking here is "Can the deleted files be made to do to the Recycle Bin instead of bypassing the Recycle Bin and thus being, at least in the mind of most users, permanently and irreversably gone?" On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:51 PM, SuezanneC Baskerville > wrote: > > The uninstaller asks if you want to delete files left in the SL program > > files folder and then if you answer yes it proceeds to delete not only > files > > in the SL program folder, it also deletes files in the Application Data > and > > Local Settings folder, including files that were created by TPVs. > > the problem is in two parts > 1 the uninstaller is being unclear and "helpful" > 2 best practices for a TPV would be to use its own folder by default > (with maybe doing a copy of the avatar log files and such) > > -- > Robert L Martin > -- v i r t u a l w o r l d e n t h u s i a s t -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e -- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
i've seen several products that have an uninstall option to "delete user data?" Like, the uninstall won't delete anything except its executables and program data that it installed unless you give it permission to do more at uninstall time. At least one program i've seen asked two uninstall questions like that, the one for user data and another for config files. That program asked about config files because the company had several different versions of its product and sometimes people would switch between them. i know, that's not the best way to do things. i'm just sayin what i've seen. - AK -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Those two parts are not the sum of the problem. Deleted files can appear in the Recycle Bin, which would allow the user to restore them without the use of any special file undelete utitilities. The files SL deletes don't. Someone should check to make sure I'm wrong. TPVs aren't always going to follow best practices any more than LL is going to always follow best practice. Best practice would be that if you ask about deleting files in C:\Program Files\SecondLifeDevelopment, you confine your deletions to files in those folders. Regardless of the flaws in the uninstaller's logic, the question I'm asking here is "Can the deleted files be made to do to the Recycle Bin instead of bypassing the Recycle Bin and thus being, at least in the mind of most users, permanently and irreversably gone?" On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Robert Martin wrote: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:51 PM, SuezanneC Baskerville wrote: > The uninstaller asks if you want to delete files left in the SL program > files folder and then if you answer yes it proceeds to delete not only files > in the SL program folder, it also deletes files in the Application Data and > Local Settings folder, including files that were created by TPVs. the problem is in two parts 1 the uninstaller is being unclear and "helpful" 2 best practices for a TPV would be to use its own folder by default (with maybe doing a copy of the avatar log files and such) -- Robert L Martin -- v i r t u a l w o r l d e n t h u s i a s t -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e -- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
In games unistallers it is pretty common for them to ask separately if you want to delete your save games as well. -Frans On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 10:28 PM, wrote: > i've seen several products that have an uninstall option to "delete user > data?" Like, the uninstall won't delete anything except its executables > and program data that it installed unless you give it permission to do > more at uninstall time. At least one program i've seen asked two > uninstall questions like that, the one for user data and another for > config files. That program asked about config files because the company > had several different versions of its product and sometimes people would > switch between them. i know, that's not the best way to do things. i'm > just sayin what i've seen. > > - AK > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Those two parts are not the sum of the problem. > > Deleted files can appear in the Recycle Bin, which would allow the user > to restore them without the use of any special file undelete utitilities. > > The files SL deletes don't. Someone should check to make sure I'm wrong. > > TPVs aren't always going to follow best practices any more than LL is > going to always follow best practice. Best practice would be that if you > ask about deleting files in C:\Program Files\SecondLifeDevelopment, you > confine your deletions to files in those folders. > > Regardless of the flaws in the uninstaller's logic, the question I'm > asking here is "Can the deleted files be made to do to the Recycle Bin > instead of bypassing the Recycle Bin and thus being, at least in the mind > of most users, permanently and irreversably gone?" > > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Robert Martin > wrote: > >On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:51 PM, SuezanneC Baskerville > wrote: >> The uninstaller asks if you want to delete files left in the SL > program >> files folder and then if you answer yes it proceeds to delete not > only files >> in the SL program folder, it also deletes files in the Application > Data and >> Local Settings folder, including files that were created by TPVs. > >the problem is in two parts >1 the uninstaller is being unclear and "helpful" >2 best practices for a TPV would be to use its own folder by default >(with maybe doing a copy of the avatar log files and such) > >-- >Robert L Martin > > > > > -- > v i r t u a l w o r l d e n t h u s i a s t > -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e -- > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
SuezanneC Baskerville schrieb: > Files deleted by the SL uninstaller don't appear in the Recycle Bin > on my Windows XP system. > > It seems to me it would be better if they did. > > Some files deleted by some other programs do appear in the Recycle Bin. > > In the case that brought this to my attention, it was the uninstaller > for the SL Development Viewer and what it deleted was all my chat > history, which could have been 7 years of chat history. > That is a problem with SL installer. Installers should never touch any of the user specific folders anyways. Same for uninstallers. That is for the windows platform. The uninstaller deleting chatlogs is a bug. To get most of your logs back, try some undeletion software. Maybe system restore saved the logs as well, but I wouldn't just use system restore, as it's an intrusive task and may cause more problems than it's worth. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
The uninstaller shouldn't remove ANYTHING in the user's profile, period. It's not being "unclear" by removing files in the user's profile when it removes files in the Program Files directory, it's simply doing the wrong thing. This has been an ongoing problem for years, I suspect there's a Jira about it. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
Au contraire. Some people get very upset when an installer leaves any files behind that were created by the program automatically, such as log files. It's simply not true that the uninstaller shouldn't remove anything in the profile -- I have worked at multiple companies where leaving behind any breadcrumbs (anything that wasn't created by File Save) after an uninstall was considered a major bug. Now I do think we can try do better; asking about deletion is on the Snowstorm backlog. Installers are always tricky and hard to test, and very often the uninstaller comes "for free" with writing the installer. It's also specialized, platform-specific code, sometimes in a strange language, so it's not easy to find devs who want to work on it. There's work going on right now that will probably affect this, and we'll make sure this is considered. Q On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > The uninstaller shouldn't remove ANYTHING in the user's profile, period. It's > not being "unclear" by removing files in the user's profile when it removes > files in the Program Files directory, it's simply doing the wrong thing. This > has been an ongoing problem for years, I suspect there's a Jira about it. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
Our chat logs are our baby pictures, our precious documents, our financial records. They are our love letters, our records of meeting our friends, our graduation diplomas, our birth certificates, our immunization records, our green cards. For an uninstall program to delete them is a good bit like your camera software's uninstall program deleting every one of your wedding and baby and family pictures. That some people might like exhaustively thorough uninstalls doesn't make that the right thing to do. People who are so concerned with a thorough uninstall that they want the stuff they, their friends, their business contacts and customers created deleted can delete it manually, apart from the uninstall program; people whose content is destroyed permanently by an inaccurately worded uninstall routine have no recourse. Regardless of whether the uninstall program does or doesn't delete these files, there is a separate matter that I am trying to bring to light, namely the question of whether the files the uninstall program deletes are deleted in such a fashion that they go into the operating system's "emergency backup system", which for Windows XP,. is called the recycle bin. I've made a jira issue about this: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23594 , "Files deleted by uninstallation should appear in the Recycle Bin or equivalent". Please vote for if you like. On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) wrote: > Au contraire. Some people get very upset when an installer leaves any files > behind that were created by the program automatically, such as log files. > It's simply not true that the uninstaller shouldn't remove anything in the > profile -- I have worked at multiple companies where leaving behind any > breadcrumbs (anything that wasn't created by File Save) after an uninstall > was considered a major bug. > > Now I do think we can try do better; asking about deletion is on the > Snowstorm backlog. Installers are always tricky and hard to test, and very > often the uninstaller comes "for free" with writing the installer. It's also > specialized, platform-specific code, sometimes in a strange language, so > it's not easy to find devs who want to work on it. > > There's work going on right now that will probably affect this, and we'll > make sure this is considered. > >Q > > > On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > > > The uninstaller shouldn't remove ANYTHING in the user's profile, period. > It's not being "unclear" by removing files in the user's profile when it > removes files in the Program Files directory, it's simply doing the wrong > thing. This has been an ongoing problem for years, I suspect there's a Jira > about it. > > -- v i r t u a l w o r l d e n t h u s i a s t -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e -- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
On 2010-10-27, at 7:45 AM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) wrote: > Au contraire. Some people get very upset when an installer leaves any files > behind that were created by the program automatically, such as log files. > It's simply not true that the uninstaller shouldn't remove anything in the > profile -- I have worked at multiple companies where leaving behind any > breadcrumbs (anything that wasn't created by File Save) after an uninstall > was considered a major bug. I disagree with this statement. On unix like systems it's standard practice to store user specific settings in a file or directory like ~/.thePackage . Just because someone removes/replaces/updates the software does not mean that *anything* should happen to the contents of that file or directory. It's even worse on systems with more than one user. I think that it's better to decouple the per-user settings and preferences from the package installation entirely. Just my $L0.02. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
My only concern with some of this, is that it eliminates the support teams easy one line answer to everything odd or unexplained. Uninstall and reinstall the client. The reason this works so well is that it deletes all of the users settings and preferences, which often become corrupted or contain invalid or bad values from previous versions, and cause trouble. Log files should not be placed inside a hidden/system folder to begin with in my opinion, its like treating user created content as program preferences. On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 16:18, Da5id Kronfeld wrote: > > On 2010-10-27, at 7:45 AM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) wrote: > >> Au contraire. Some people get very upset when an installer leaves any files >> behind that were created by the program automatically, such as log files. >> It's simply not true that the uninstaller shouldn't remove anything in the >> profile -- I have worked at multiple companies where leaving behind any >> breadcrumbs (anything that wasn't created by File Save) after an uninstall >> was considered a major bug. > > I disagree with this statement. On unix like systems it's standard practice > to store user specific settings in a file or directory like ~/.thePackage . > Just because someone removes/replaces/updates the software does not mean that > *anything* should happen to the contents of that file or directory. It's even > worse on systems with more than one user. > > I think that it's better to decouple the per-user settings and preferences > from the package installation entirely. Just my $L0.02. > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
On 10/27/2010 10:45 AM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) wrote: > Au contraire. Some people get very upset when an installer leaves any files > behind that were created by the program automatically, such as log files. Au contraire contraire. MANY people get VERY upset when an installer deletes files that belong to them that they directed the program to create, either explicitly, or automatically via an explicit setting. I have the original viewer 2 installed right now and am not going to uninstall it until I am DAMN SURE I have backed up my entire profile, specifically because of this asinine design flaw. If I didn't already know about it, I would be ROYALLY pissed off when it deleted years' worth of accumulated data; MY data. Despite having backups, there still will be incremental loss (data since last backup), and the hassle of having to restore said data. Other people aren't so lucky, not knowing to back up said profile data, or simply not doing backups (yeah, their risk, but there is NO call to intentionally manifest that failure in code). > It's simply not true that the uninstaller shouldn't remove anything in the > profile -- I have worked at multiple companies where leaving behind any > breadcrumbs (anything that wasn't created by File Save) after an uninstall > was considered a major bug. Then that is multiple companies which promoted a SERIOUS installer design paradigm flaw. I can't say I envy you there. Of the hundreds of customers I have developed software for over the past 3 decades, if I had implemented such a design flaw in my uninstallers, I would have lost a lot of money, and potentially been sued by at least a couple of them. (btw, aren't anecdotal stories acting as appeal to authority logical fallacies fun?) Look, this isn't hard to grok; it really isn't. Any collection of data which is created by or at the behest of the user is considered "user data". Implementations of a proper installer paradigm should NEVER *EVER* touch user data, either automatically or by default WITHOUT the full knowledge and consent of the user. That includes things like chatlogs, user-created folders underneath the program directory, user preferences, etc. This does not apply to things like temporary files, cache files/folders, or program data (because none of that is "user data"). An uninstaller also should inform the user of any files that it left behind, where, and why. Give the user information and control, and you don't have "very upset" users. Maybe "mildly annoyed" users, but not "I want to throttle the idiot developer that did this to me" users. At MOST, an uninstaller, if it is hell-bent on trying to clean up *COMPLETELY* after itself, *must* inform the user that it wants to cleanup his/her user data, explain EXACTLY and IN DETAIL what is going to be cleaned, and leave the default for the option to NO (as in "don't delete my data!"). This is simply proper (un)installer design, and I am amazed that so many developers simply "don't get it", to the pain of their users (including myself). Deleting data is FAR more serious of an issue than leaving data behind. Once it is gone, it is gone; if it is left behind, the user can clean it up themselves. Anger from lost data >>> annoyance of having to break out the data dustbuster. > Now I do think we can try do better; asking about deletion is on the > Snowstorm backlog. I sure hope so. <.< > Installers are always tricky and hard to test, and very often the uninstaller > comes "for free" with writing the installer. It's also specialized, > platform-specific code, sometimes in a strange language, so it's not easy to > find devs who want to work on it. They are not nearly as tricky or hard to test as code itself. Yeah, the uninstaller is often auto-generated by the installer generator, but to not then go through it with a fine-toothed comb for verification and add application-specific changes to the uninstall script is just laziness, pure and simple. The "strange language" is often fairly simplistic and easy to manipulate with only a modicum of time and effort put into learning it. I would be extremely surprised to learn that there isn't at least one "installer expert" at LL, whose primary job function is building and testing installer packages (note I said "primary", not "sole"; let's not go there). > There's work going on right now that will probably affect this, and we'll > make sure this is considered. It needs more than consideration; it needs to be done, period. It's improper and incorrect, it is a design flaw, and it needs to be fixed ASAP before it does any more damage to user data. --TL ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
getting back to what i said 1 the uninstaller should state that it is removing the profile data (best thing to do would be to zip it and put it in a folder on the desktop) 2 TPVs should by default not use the default secondlife profile folder (i would bet that 40% of SL/TPV problems could be solved by this simple step) 3 the recycle bin is a gamble anyway and may not be safe to use (2 gigs of profile data and a 1 gig recycle bin size = chunks of missing data) -- Robert L Martin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
It might be more logical to store the chat logs - or perhaps a copy of the chat logs - in the "My Documents" folder, or operating system equivalent. The recycle bin might be a gamble, but it has better odds of allowing data restoration that not putting the deleted files in the recycle bin, doesn't it? Putting deleted chat log files in the recycle bin is not meant to exclude other needed improvements such as not deleted the files in the first place. There are several jira issues about not deleting our chat logs and other files such as settings fles that could use some more looking at and perhaps some votes. VWR-21970 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-21970 VWR-17901 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17901 VWR-17040 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17040 STORM-280 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-280 PLAT-45 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PLAT-45 VWR-17187 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17187 VWR-20216 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20216 VWR-18315 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18315 There are probably some other related issues in addition to the above. On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > getting back to what i said > > 1 the uninstaller should state that it is removing the profile data > (best thing to do would be to zip it and put it in a folder on the > desktop) > > 2 TPVs should by default not use the default secondlife profile folder > (i would bet that 40% of SL/TPV problems could be solved by this > simple step) > > 3 the recycle bin is a gamble anyway and may not be safe to use (2 > gigs of profile data and a 1 gig recycle bin size = chunks of missing > data) > -- > Robert L Martin > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- v i r t u a l w o r l d e n t h u s i a s t -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e -- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
I don't see this as a theoretical issue about whether the logs should be deleted, or not. (Note the word "should".) Many users don't like it. Don't do it. lee ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
Wow such a big discussion. I think the best plan would be to have both ways as an option like lots of installers do. Check this box to delete all files program created after it was installed simple enough and solves really any problem that arrises from left over cache and stuff if one is trying to reinstall a viewer On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Ponzu wrote: > I don't see this as a theoretical issue about whether the logs should be > deleted, or not. (Note the word "should".) > Many users don't like it. Don't do it. > lee > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
Just follow Microsoft requirements for Windows Logo for installation and uninstallation on the Windows platform. One of it is to never touch the user profile. This is a requirement for Terminal Services Aware applications. For removing "breadcrumbs", this is not working, an uninstaller cannot remove data from all user profiles, this is not possible. Instead an ISV can provide a profile cleanup utility. LL should follow the standards and restrictions. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
6 years and 9 months of chat logs is not "bread crumbs". v i r t u a l w o r l d e n t h u s i a s t -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e -- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
I'm having trouble reproducing this issue, when I uninstall Viewer 2 my logs and settings, even my local asset cache remain (using Win7 x64). What operating system are you folks experiencing the problem with? I suspect this might be related to using XP, which doesn't allocate separate folders for local and roaming application data like Vista/7 do. A quick peek at the installer template reveals that on XP the Application Data/Second Life folder is removed, while on Vista/7 only AppData/*local*/Second Life is removed, while the logs/settings in /AppData/*roaming*/Second Life should remain untouched. This pretty much defines best practice in terms of handling application data. If that is the case, then Linden should go ahead and ignore the bug as it's caused by the nature of a ~10 year old operating system. I'd rather see effort being put into supporting new Windows SDK features than working around old ones. Log file location is one of the few things you can change directly from preferences, and probably exactly for this reason. If you care so much backup your data more often or learn to use system/file restore. As for overwriting your old logs, you did that yourself when you installed over recently freed up HD space. Not a software bug. On 10/29/2010 2:36 AM, Erin Mallory wrote: I lost 3 years on one computer and 4 on another because of uninstalling all v2 versions at the request of support (which i later learned was unneeded). I was assured i didn't need to back up my logs before hand. I tried to retrieve them using some of the data recovery programs we have at work, but the installer overwrote them when it erased them. WTF??? There are three failures here. The failure to provide at least the option to keep the logs, the failure of LL to have support people that know what the fuck they are doing, and using an installer that scrubs the deleted files so they can't be recoverable. All I can say is THANK GOD it was my personal computers and not my work ones. But even so, the loss of some of those logs really hurt and caused some real tears... especially the ones from users that are now deceased or missing irl. I can never recover those, and it angers me to no end that the inability of someone to actually think through a decision means that I cannot go back and reread the conversations we had anymore and yes now before i uninstall anything i back up the files. and i would have before uninstalling all the versions of v2 i had had at the time, except i was assured by live support that the installers would NOT touch those files. Just one more in a heap load of instances where someone at LL or their contractors decided that because they wanted something done a certain way all users would. so if some of the lindens wonder why i am so passionate and stubborn and why when you pull that "we're doing it this way and there's no discussion" crap, its cause that mentality leads to things like this happening Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:35:07 -0500 From: sueza...@gmail.com To: thomas.shik...@online.de CC: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin 6 years and 9 months of chat logs is not "bread crumbs". v i r t u a l w o r l d e n t h u s i a s t -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e -- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
On 2010-10-27, at 09:45, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) wrote: > Au contraire. Some people get very upset when an installer leaves any files > behind that were created by the program automatically, such as log files. > It's simply not true that the uninstaller shouldn't remove anything in the > profile -- I have worked at multiple companies where leaving behind any > breadcrumbs (anything that wasn't created by File Save) after an uninstall > was considered a major bug. If the files are unambiguously owned by that specific instance of the program, and there is no likelihood that other instances of the program might be still installed, that might be true. Most programs are single-instance. Once uninstalled, it will never be installed again. That doesn't apply to files that are shared by multiple programs, and it doesn't apply to documents created by the program. Whether chat logs should be considered documents or log files is perhaps debatable, but that it's even debatable should be enough to exempt them from automatic deletion. And for Second Life, where it's routine to install and uninstall beta versions of the program, and where beta versions share files with the regular install, it shouldn't even be considered. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
On 2010-10-27, at 16:33, Zabb65 wrote: > My only concern with some of this, is that it eliminates the support > teams easy one line answer to everything odd or unexplained. Uninstall > and reinstall the client. Good. Replace that with a "reset to default settings" option in Preferences. If you want to reset preferences, then make it explicit. Think of it like "Safe Mode", or like "Reset to Safe Defaults/Reset to Optimized Defaults" in your PC BIOS. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
On 2010-10-29, at 03:23, kow wrote: > If that is the case, then Linden should go ahead and ignore the bug as it's > caused by the nature of a ~10 year old operating system. A ten year old operating system that is still supported and widely used, more widely used than Vista for sure, and will no doubt continue to be widely used long after Microsoft gives up on it. The people who have a lot of log files, the ones worst impacted by this, installed Second Life long before Seven was shipped (we can ignore Vista, even Microsoft seems to prefer we forgot about it). ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Files deleted by uninstaller don't appear in Recycle Bin
Ok, people are quoting me without also quoting the context of the statement I was responding to, which was a categorical "never", and also not quoting what else I said, which was: > Now I do think we can try do better; asking about deletion is on the > Snowstorm backlog. > > There's work going on right now that will probably affect this, and we'll > make sure this is considered. I do agree that we shouldn't delete logs without asking, and we'll get to it, probably this quarter. I'm sorry if people misunderstood my comment. Q ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
