Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Anders Arnholm]

Joel Foner wrote:
> I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal 
> (os-dev posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's 
> say the last 30 days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual 
> os-dev discussion happened. Maybe I'm just missing it. 
The legal issues, what you are allowed to write is IMHO as impoartant as 
the how to write stuff. Escially if the you are allowed to write stuff 
is in question. The TPV police is imho defiltly signal on the deveopler 
list.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Anders Arnholm]

VR Hacks wrote:
> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and imo, it would 
> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary distribution. 
>   
The EULA however in most of the world have no legal meaning, except it 
can give the user rights against the developer. For a license to be 
valid i have to be agreed by both parts before getting the product. 
Shrink wrap licenses and deals are frowed upon by most legal systems.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Gareth Nelson]

Don't go giving LL's lawyers ideas

Seriously, I would not be surprised to find the "IANALP" come out
next, complete with Joe talking about it inworld on voice only

"So, we're here to see how to move forward with people who want to
read any of our policies and dare interpret them - this should not be
allowed, so from now on only registered lawyers can have an SL
account"

No offence Joe - you're a cool guy doing a hard job :)

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Brent Tubbs  wrote:
> Good idea!  We could even have a directory of people qualified to talk about
> it who give their RL info so that people show up front which commenters are
> trustworthy.  Any votes for writing this up as the Commenting on the Third
> Party Viewer Policy Policy, or COTTPVPP?
> /snark :)
> Brent
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Dahlia Trimble 
> wrote:
>>
>> I also would be interested in seeing those freely offering their legal
>> advice on this list also describing their qualifications to do so and in
>> which jurisdictions they are licensed to practice law. If not, then please
>> add a "IANAL" or other suitable disclaimer, or mention to what level you
>> would be willing to be responsible for the misfortunes that may happen from
>> others who may take your advice.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Joel Foner  wrote:
>>>
>>> I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal (os-dev
>>> posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's say the last 30
>>> days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual os-dev discussion
>>> happened. Maybe I'm just missing it.
>>> Back to my regularly scheduled programming, as it were.
>>> Joel
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Brent Tubbs]

Good idea!  We could even have a directory of people qualified to talk about
it who give their RL info so that people show up front which commenters are
trustworthy.  Any votes for writing this up as the Commenting on the Third
Party Viewer Policy Policy, or COTTPVPP?

/snark :)

Brent

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Dahlia Trimble wrote:

> I also would be interested in seeing those freely offering their legal
> advice on this list also describing their qualifications to do so and in
> which jurisdictions they are licensed to practice law. If not, then please
> add a "IANAL" or other suitable disclaimer, or mention to what level you
> would be willing to be responsible for the misfortunes that may happen from
> others who may take your advice.
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Joel Foner  wrote:
>
>> I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal (os-dev
>> posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's say the last 30
>> days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual os-dev discussion
>> happened. Maybe I'm just missing it.
>>
>> Back to my regularly scheduled programming, as it were.
>>
>> Joel
>>
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>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Dahlia Trimble]

I also would be interested in seeing those freely offering their legal
advice on this list also describing their qualifications to do so and in
which jurisdictions they are licensed to practice law. If not, then please
add a "IANAL" or other suitable disclaimer, or mention to what level you
would be willing to be responsible for the misfortunes that may happen from
others who may take your advice.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Joel Foner  wrote:

> I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal (os-dev
> posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's say the last 30
> days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual os-dev discussion
> happened. Maybe I'm just missing it.
>
> Back to my regularly scheduled programming, as it were.
>
> Joel
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Erik Anderson]

Unless I'm mistaken this discussion has been going since almost this list's
entire lifetime...

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Joel Foner  wrote:

> I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal (os-dev
> posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's say the last 30
> days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual os-dev discussion
> happened. Maybe I'm just missing it.
>
> Back to my regularly scheduled programming, as it were.
>
> Joel
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Joel Foner]

I wonder if anyone has an easy way to calculate the actual signal (os-dev
posts) to noise (legal posts) ratio on this list over, let's say the last 30
days. It's getting hard to recall when the last actual os-dev discussion
happened. Maybe I'm just missing it.

Back to my regularly scheduled programming, as it were.

Joel
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Tony Agudo]

Fractured is correct regarding Onyx not breaking GPL. That's how LL was able
to legally keep Viewer 2 under wraps for so long.

On Apr 15, 2010 6:13 PM, "Michael Daniel"  wrote:

VR Hacks wrote:
>> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a
>> cont...
I stand corrected, then.  I wasn't really talking about malicious code,
though.  I was just talking about protection from the worst-case
scenario where a client has an unintended bug in it that causes rolling
restarts, then LL comes after the 3rd party dev for damages.  I meant to
talk about incompetent coders, not malicious coders (I know that none of
the coders on this mailing list fit either description, but it's still
something to think about).  Even LL sidesteps liability for damages done
by the official viewer, so why shouldn't 3rd party devs try to do the
same thing?

On a different subject:  Is Fractured Crystal correct in the following
video when he says that he is not breaking TOS with the Onyx viewer
because he only distributes the source code and not the binaries of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRbV9SIbdCA&feature=player_embedded


Thanks,
~Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia


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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Rob Nelson]

The TPV has no differentiation between source code and binary.  The GPL
requires sourcecode distribution anyway.  He's in the wrong and I
suspect he knows it.

Also, to be quite frank, contracts that are designed to be displayed
whenever the user logs into a service should be written so it is clear
to the *user* what their responsibilities and restrictions are.  If you
want to have a "legalese" version, it should be attached as a "more
detailed" link for the lawyers to look at.  No one is going to hire a
lawyer just to look at an e-document every damn time they sign into a
bloody game.  

Fred Rookstown

On Thu, 2010-04-15 at 18:12 -0400, Michael Daniel wrote:
> VR Hacks wrote:
> >> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
> >> contract they made with you, can you?
> >> 
> >
> > Sure you can. After all, if you write malicious code, you know you're doing 
> > it. 
> I stand corrected, then.  I wasn't really talking about malicious code, 
> though.  I was just talking about protection from the worst-case 
> scenario where a client has an unintended bug in it that causes rolling 
> restarts, then LL comes after the 3rd party dev for damages.  I meant to 
> talk about incompetent coders, not malicious coders (I know that none of 
> the coders on this mailing list fit either description, but it's still 
> something to think about).  Even LL sidesteps liability for damages done 
> by the official viewer, so why shouldn't 3rd party devs try to do the 
> same thing?
> 
> On a different subject:  Is Fractured Crystal correct in the following 
> video when he says that he is not breaking TOS with the Onyx viewer 
> because he only distributes the source code and not the binaries of it?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRbV9SIbdCA&feature=player_embedded 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> ~Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Michael Daniel]

VR Hacks wrote:
>> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
>> contract they made with you, can you?
>> 
>
> Sure you can. After all, if you write malicious code, you know you're doing 
> it. 
I stand corrected, then.  I wasn't really talking about malicious code, 
though.  I was just talking about protection from the worst-case 
scenario where a client has an unintended bug in it that causes rolling 
restarts, then LL comes after the 3rd party dev for damages.  I meant to 
talk about incompetent coders, not malicious coders (I know that none of 
the coders on this mailing list fit either description, but it's still 
something to think about).  Even LL sidesteps liability for damages done 
by the official viewer, so why shouldn't 3rd party devs try to do the 
same thing?

On a different subject:  Is Fractured Crystal correct in the following 
video when he says that he is not breaking TOS with the Onyx viewer 
because he only distributes the source code and not the binaries of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRbV9SIbdCA&feature=player_embedded 


Thanks,
~Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia

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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Latif Khalifa]

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 9:38 PM, VR Hacks  wrote:
[snip]
> B) Any developer who develops and/or distributes their viewer is
> "responsible" (please note the operative word, responsible) for whatever
> code they've implemented. In other words, it is up to them to a) debug their
> own code, b) write their own EULA, and c) define & implement a user support
> model. Should they choose to do none of the above, that is their choice, as
> well.
>
> Otherwise put, responsible and smart coders will *always* include a EULA
> with their binary distribution (regardless of whether or not it was designed
> to connect to the grid). Why? Because it sets end user expectation. It
> ensures you, as devs, will not end up in a infinite "support for free" loop,
> and importantly, it provides legal protection should your code have a bug
> that you did not catch.

A smart coder would read the policy himself/herself, and base their
decision based on their own understanding of it, not on an
interpretation of some random person on a mailing list who has no
stake in the matter whatsoever.

Latif
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Discrete Dreamscape]

These comments are beginning to seem rather like pure speculation. If you're
concerned about your project or your liabilities, I recommend consulting
with someone from LL or with your lawyer.

Anyhow, the discussion at hand could use some more focus on what further
modifications would be appreciated in the TPVp pending further discussions
with Joe.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 5:24 PM, VR Hacks  wrote:

> Michael wrote in part (full off-list comment is included below sig):
>
> > That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if
> > you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught
> > doing it then you will loose your account.
>
> Yup, something to that effect.
>
> > I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a
> > contract they made with you, can you?
>
> Sure you can. After all, if you write malicious code, you know you're doing
> it. So, if you choose to distribute that code that allows connection to the
> grid, and even if you included a "connect to the grid at your own risk"
> clause in your EULA, it could easily be shown in a court of law that you
> were attempting to circumvent the lab's TPV policy. In fact, if anything,
> such a clause in the EULA would clearly indicate that you know you're
> distributing a non-compliant viewer for connecting to the SL grid. Again,
> this would only apply if you provided a means for your viewer to connect to
> the SL grid.
>
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
>
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
>
>
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
>
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Michael Daniel" 
> To: "VR Hacks" 
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move
> TPVPTopics to a different mailing list
>
>
> >I know many others have looked at this, but to me the important part of
> the
> >policy is this:
> >
> > "This Policy does not place any restriction on modification or use of our
> > viewer source code <https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads>
> > that we make available under the GPL
> > <
> http://secondlifegrid.net/technology-programs/license-virtual-world/viewerlicensing/gplv2
> >.
> > Rather, the Policy sets out requirements for connecting to our Second
> Life
> > service using a Third-Party Viewer, regardless of the viewer source code
> > used, and for participating in our Viewer Directory
> > <http://viewerdirectory.secondlife.com>."
> >
> > That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if
> > you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught
> > doing it then you will loose your account.
> >
> > If you don't want the liability just toss something in the EULA for your
> > users that makes them agree to not use your TPV to connect to SL and
> > you're covered, I think.  I'm pretty sure that counts as due dilligance.
> > I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a
> > contract they made with you, can you?
> >
> > Again, I'm not a lawyer.
> >
> > ~Bubblesort
> >
> >
> > VR Hacks wrote:
> >> Tigro Spottystripes
> >>
> >>
> >>> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
> >>> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
> >>> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?
> >>>
> >>
> >> For argument's sake, let's say I, as an SL user, choose to extend the
> >> linden lab viewer code base to 

Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

What is considered malicious varies from grid to grid, someone could for
example setup a grid for the sole purpose of figuring out how strong you
can make a grid against attacks, and for the purpose of helping test it
and find new possibilities of attacks, they could release an example
client that has all sorts of means to attack other clients and even the
grid itself so people have a base to develop on and know how things work
currently etc. Or you could have a grid where the terms of service says
only GPL content can be uploaded to the grid, and have the grid and the
client enforce free copying and modifying (under the terms of GPL) of
all the content.

On 15/4/2010 18:24, VR Hacks wrote:
> Michael wrote in part (full off-list comment is included below sig):
> 
>> That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if 
>> you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught 
>> doing it then you will loose your account.
> 
> Yup, something to that effect.
> 
>> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
>> contract they made with you, can you?
> 
> Sure you can. After all, if you write malicious code, you know you're doing 
> it. So, if you choose to distribute that code that allows connection to the 
> grid, and even if you included a "connect to the grid at your own risk" 
> clause in your EULA, it could easily be shown in a court of law that you 
> were attempting to circumvent the lab's TPV policy. In fact, if anything, 
> such a clause in the EULA would clearly indicate that you know you're 
> distributing a non-compliant viewer for connecting to the SL grid. Again, 
> this would only apply if you provided a means for your viewer to connect to 
> the SL grid.
> 
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
> 
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
> ----- Original Message - 
> From: "Michael Daniel" 
> To: "VR Hacks" 
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move 
> TPVPTopics to a different mailing list
> 
> 
>> I know many others have looked at this, but to me the important part of the 
>> policy is this:
>>
>> "This Policy does not place any restriction on modification or use of our 
>> viewer source code <https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads> 
>> that we make available under the GPL 
>> <http://secondlifegrid.net/technology-programs/license-virtual-world/viewerlicensing/gplv2>.
>>  
>> Rather, the Policy sets out requirements for connecting to our Second Life 
>> service using a Third-Party Viewer, regardless of the viewer source code 
>> used, and for participating in our Viewer Directory 
>> <http://viewerdirectory.secondlife.com>."
>>
>> That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if 
>> you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught 
>> doing it then you will loose your account.
>>
>> If you don't want the liability just toss something in the EULA for your 
>> users that makes them agree to not use your TPV to connect to SL and 
>> you're covered, I think.  I'm pretty sure that counts as due dilligance. 
>> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
>> contract they made with you, can you?
>>
>> Again, I'm not a lawyer.
>>
>> ~Bubblesort
>>
>>
>> VR Hacks wrote:
>>> Tigro Spottystripes
>>>
>>>
>>>> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
>>>> code? An

Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[VR Hacks]

Michael wrote in part (full off-list comment is included below sig):

> That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if 
> you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught 
> doing it then you will loose your account.

Yup, something to that effect.

> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
> contract they made with you, can you?

Sure you can. After all, if you write malicious code, you know you're doing 
it. So, if you choose to distribute that code that allows connection to the 
grid, and even if you included a "connect to the grid at your own risk" 
clause in your EULA, it could easily be shown in a court of law that you 
were attempting to circumvent the lab's TPV policy. In fact, if anything, 
such a clause in the EULA would clearly indicate that you know you're 
distributing a non-compliant viewer for connecting to the SL grid. Again, 
this would only apply if you provided a means for your viewer to connect to 
the SL grid.

Angela Talamasca (in-world)
MA Forensic Psychology


VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
--
"Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde


Angela Talamasca (in-world)
MA Forensic Psychology


VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
--
"Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Daniel" 
To: "VR Hacks" 
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move 
TPVPTopics to a different mailing list


>I know many others have looked at this, but to me the important part of the 
>policy is this:
>
> "This Policy does not place any restriction on modification or use of our 
> viewer source code <https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads> 
> that we make available under the GPL 
> <http://secondlifegrid.net/technology-programs/license-virtual-world/viewerlicensing/gplv2>.
>  
> Rather, the Policy sets out requirements for connecting to our Second Life 
> service using a Third-Party Viewer, regardless of the viewer source code 
> used, and for participating in our Viewer Directory 
> <http://viewerdirectory.secondlife.com>."
>
> That means that you can write and distribute anything you please, but if 
> you connect to the grid with something like NeilLife and you get caught 
> doing it then you will loose your account.
>
> If you don't want the liability just toss something in the EULA for your 
> users that makes them agree to not use your TPV to connect to SL and 
> you're covered, I think.  I'm pretty sure that counts as due dilligance. 
> I mean you can't legally be held liable for users who refuse to follow a 
> contract they made with you, can you?
>
> Again, I'm not a lawyer.
>
> ~Bubblesort
>
>
> VR Hacks wrote:
>> Tigro Spottystripes
>>
>>
>>> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
>>> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
>>> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?
>>>
>>
>> For argument's sake, let's say I, as an SL user, choose to extend the 
>> linden lab viewer code base to access, say, reaction grid. Let's also say 
>> that I do wish to agree to the TPV policy for my code. In other words, 
>> say, I want to include functionality that is allowable on that grid but 
>> not allowable on the SL grid. It is then my "responsibility" to create my 
>> viewer such that the option for connecting to the SL grid is not 
>> available without some sort of code change. At which point I can deploy 
>> my code.
>>
>> Of course, I still plan to access the second life grid. In order to do 
>> so, I cannot use my viewer. Rather, I must use a viewer that was 
>> developed by someone who agreed to the TPV policy (as put forth in the 
>> new ToS). In other words, as long as I am using a viewer that adheres to 
>> the TPV policy, all is well. And

Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

About that "interesting scenario", the TPVp doesn't seem to care about
how many steps and hands separate the original code you did and what was
used to generate the binary Joe Developer uses to log in SL.

On 15/4/2010 17:19, VR Hacks wrote:
> Tigro Spottystripes
> 
>> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
>> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
>> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?
> 
> For argument's sake, let's say I, as an SL user, choose to extend the linden 
> lab viewer code base to access, say, reaction grid. Let's also say that I do 
> wish to agree to the TPV policy for my code. In other words, say, I want to 
> include functionality that is allowable on that grid but not allowable on 
> the SL grid. It is then my "responsibility" to create my viewer such that 
> the option for connecting to the SL grid is not available without some sort 
> of code change. At which point I can deploy my code.
> 
> Of course, I still plan to access the second life grid. In order to do so, I 
> cannot use my viewer. Rather, I must use a viewer that was developed by 
> someone who agreed to the TPV policy (as put forth in the new ToS). In other 
> words, as long as I am using a viewer that adheres to the TPV policy, all is 
> well. And I can cavort in SL to my heart's content.
> 
> This, of course, raises an interesting scenario. If I have coded a client 
> that, say, ignores the lab's import/export requirements, and I have chosen 
> to exclude SL grid access, yet, Joe Developer comes along and chooses to use 
> my code base, and add in SL grid access, then the onus is upon Joe Developer 
> to change the import/export feature to meet the TPV policy guidelines if he 
> wants his viewer to connect to the grid. Or, he can take his chances. 
> Nonetheless, since Joe Developer is the one who changed the code to connect 
> to the grid, the policy applies to him., not to you. And therefore it is his 
> responsibility to ensure his code adheres to the TPV policy.
> 
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I don't think developers are gonna be happy with LL threatening to kill
their accounts and bring them to court because of their non-SL related
activities.

IMO, LL should restrict their rules to only stuff done by connecting to
their machines; so only actual users would be affected, and only for
things users do while using LL's services. LL should not sue pencil
makers because someone was stabbed with a pencil in their office.


IMO the TPVp doesn't need to exist, and shouldn't. The TOS already had
all the rules regarding unauthorized copying, misuse of LL's services
etc, and in many cases, real world laws already existed to take care of
things, the TOS didn't even have to mention the unlawful activities.

For most things, LL should just have a friendly reminder for people to
not break the law, and of course, LL should cooperate with law
enforcement etc, and obey the laws themselves too of course.


I know SL isn't a site (contrary to what many bloggers and even
professional reporters seem to think), but i haven't heard of any site
that offers some service that has their terms of service restricting
which browsers users can use, much less try to blame browser makers for
actions done by users.


Summing up, forget thinking of things in terms of viewers, and forget
developers, deal with users and their actions, and with the law.

On 15/4/2010 17:09, Discrete Dreamscape wrote:
> Devs for other grids that don't need to agree to LL's policy probably
> wouldn't have anything to worry about at all, especially if they
> included EULAs with the right terms. As for residents, I wouldn't say
> their account becomes 'unsafe.' However, my (emphasis on my)
> interpretation of the policy is that you would be "responsible" (read:
> liable) to LL for the results of your code.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
> mailto:tigrospottystri...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?
> 
> On 15/4/2010 17:00, Discrete Dreamscape wrote:
>> I would assume that, to be more detailed, your code would either not
>> allow connections to the LL grid, or you would have to decline the
>> updated ToS/TPVp, thus not agreeing to be bound to it but also
>> preventing you from using the LL grid yourself.
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
>>  
>  >> wrote:
> 
>> So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
>> viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?
> 
>> On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
>>> Tigro wrote:
> 
 What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
> 
>>> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and
>> imo, it would
>>> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary
>> distribution.
>>> And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must
>> retain said
>>> GPL with the souce code distribution.
> 
>>> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
>>> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
>>> 
>>> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
>>> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
>>> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
>>> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
>>> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
>>> --
>>> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
>>> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar
>> Wilde
> 
>>> ___
>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated
>> posting privileges
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[VR Hacks]

Tigro Spottystripes

> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?

For argument's sake, let's say I, as an SL user, choose to extend the linden 
lab viewer code base to access, say, reaction grid. Let's also say that I do 
wish to agree to the TPV policy for my code. In other words, say, I want to 
include functionality that is allowable on that grid but not allowable on 
the SL grid. It is then my "responsibility" to create my viewer such that 
the option for connecting to the SL grid is not available without some sort 
of code change. At which point I can deploy my code.

Of course, I still plan to access the second life grid. In order to do so, I 
cannot use my viewer. Rather, I must use a viewer that was developed by 
someone who agreed to the TPV policy (as put forth in the new ToS). In other 
words, as long as I am using a viewer that adheres to the TPV policy, all is 
well. And I can cavort in SL to my heart's content.

This, of course, raises an interesting scenario. If I have coded a client 
that, say, ignores the lab's import/export requirements, and I have chosen 
to exclude SL grid access, yet, Joe Developer comes along and chooses to use 
my code base, and add in SL grid access, then the onus is upon Joe Developer 
to change the import/export feature to meet the TPV policy guidelines if he 
wants his viewer to connect to the grid. Or, he can take his chances. 
Nonetheless, since Joe Developer is the one who changed the code to connect 
to the grid, the policy applies to him., not to you. And therefore it is his 
responsibility to ensure his code adheres to the TPV policy.

Angela Talamasca (in-world)
MA Forensic Psychology


VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
--
"Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde

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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Discrete Dreamscape]

Devs for other grids that don't need to agree to LL's policy probably
wouldn't have anything to worry about at all, especially if they included
EULAs with the right terms. As for residents, I wouldn't say their account
becomes 'unsafe.' However, my (emphasis on my) interpretation of the policy
is that you would be "responsible" (read: liable) to LL for the results of
your code.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Tigro Spottystripes <
tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
> code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
> keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?
>
> On 15/4/2010 17:00, Discrete Dreamscape wrote:
> > I would assume that, to be more detailed, your code would either not
> > allow connections to the LL grid, or you would have to decline the
> > updated ToS/TPVp, thus not agreeing to be bound to it but also
> > preventing you from using the LL grid yourself.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
> > mailto:tigrospottystri...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
> > viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?
> >
> > On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
> >> Tigro wrote:
> >
> >>> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
> >
> >> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and
> > imo, it would
> >> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary
> > distribution.
> >> And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must
> > retain said
> >> GPL with the souce code distribution.
> >
> >> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> >> MA Forensic Psychology
> >
> >> 
> >> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> >> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> >> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> >> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> >> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> >> --
> >> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
> >> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar
> > Wilde
> >
> >> ___
> >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated
> > posting privileges
> >
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Why developers for other grids would need to do any changes on their
code? And why can't a SL resident develop clients for other grids while
keeping their SL accounts safe without being forced to jump thru hoops?

On 15/4/2010 17:00, Discrete Dreamscape wrote:
> I would assume that, to be more detailed, your code would either not
> allow connections to the LL grid, or you would have to decline the
> updated ToS/TPVp, thus not agreeing to be bound to it but also
> preventing you from using the LL grid yourself.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
> mailto:tigrospottystri...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
> viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?
> 
> On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
>> Tigro wrote:
> 
>>> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
> 
>> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and
> imo, it would
>> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary
> distribution.
>> And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must
> retain said
>> GPL with the souce code distribution.
> 
>> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
>> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
>> 
>> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
>> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
>> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
>> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
>> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
>> --
>> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
>> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar
> Wilde
> 
>> ___
>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated
> posting privileges
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Discrete Dreamscape]

I would assume that, to be more detailed, your code would either not allow
connections to the LL grid, or you would have to decline the updated
ToS/TPVp, thus not agreeing to be bound to it but also preventing you from
using the LL grid yourself.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Tigro Spottystripes <
tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
> viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?
>
> On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
> > Tigro wrote:
> >
> >> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
> >
> > Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and imo, it
> would
> > still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary
> distribution.
> > And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must retain
> said
> > GPL with the souce code distribution.
> >
> > Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> > MA Forensic Psychology
> >
> > 
> > VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> > VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> > VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> > Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> > Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> > --
> > "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
> > infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> >
> > ___
> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
> >
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

So any developer not willing to abide by the TPVp can simply say their
viewer is not meant for LL's grid and that is it?

On 15/4/2010 16:54, VR Hacks wrote:
> Tigro wrote:
> 
>> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?
> 
> Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and imo, it would 
> still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary distribution. 
> And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must retain said 
> GPL with the souce code distribution.
> 
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[VR Hacks]

Tigro wrote:

> What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?

Then the TPV policy does not apply to them. Though, again, and imo, it would 
still be prudent for them to include a EULA with their binary distribution. 
And, of course, if their code is extending GPL code, they must retain said 
GPL with the souce code distribution.

Angela Talamasca (in-world)
MA Forensic Psychology


VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
--
"Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are
infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde

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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

What if the developer develops a viewer for other grids?

On 15/4/2010 16:38, VR Hacks wrote:
> Imo, some people fail to see the TPVp for what it is. To wit:
> 
> A) Any and all developers who develop a client for connecting to the second 
> life grid must adhere to a basic set of rules. To reiterate, the TPV policy 
> does not just apply to devs extending the lab's code base. To wit:
> 
> "This Policy governs access to Second Life and our technical platform that 
> supports Second Life by any Third-Party Viewer, by which we mean any 
> third-party software client, regardless of its source code, that logs into 
> our servers. This includes software for viewing Second Life, any chat 
> clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not 
> be listed in our Viewer Directory." (http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php 
> , paragraph two)
> 
> In other words, should I decide to write a "from scratch" viewer to access 
> the grid, then I must code my viewer such that it adheres to their TPV 
> policy.
> 
> B) Any developer who develops and/or distributes their viewer is 
> "responsible" (please note the operative word, responsible) for whatever 
> code they've implemented. In other words, it is up to them to a) debug their 
> own code, b) write their own EULA, and c) define & implement a user support 
> model. Should they choose to do none of the above, that is their choice, as 
> well.
> 
> Otherwise put, responsible and smart coders will *always* include a EULA 
> with their binary distribution (regardless of whether or not it was designed 
> to connect to the grid). Why? Because it sets end user expectation. It 
> ensures you, as devs, will not end up in a infinite "support for free" loop, 
> and importantly, it provides legal protection should your code have a bug 
> that you did not catch.
> 
> As for the GPL argument. That is moot. Or rather, as Joe so noted, "The TPV 
> is orthogonal to the GPL."
> 
> That being said and all things considered, imo, the lab has been quite 
> magnanimous when it comes to third party viewer devs. After all, they are 
> not required to provide "free advertising" via TPV directory that is 
> designed to set a bar for inclusion, which in turn reduces the chance that 
> the neils of this world will be able to include their viewer, while at the 
> same time, increases consumer confidence in the viewers listed in that 
> directory. Nor is the lab required to "pardon" people who had been 
> previously banned such that same said may participate in the viewer 
> directory program.
> 
> Angela Talamasca (in-world)
> MA Forensic Psychology
> 
> 
> VR Hacks Blog: http://bit.ly/VRHacksBlog
> VR Hacks Twitter: http://bit.ly/VRHacksTwitter
> VR Hacks YouTube: http://bit.ly/VRHacksYouTube
> Digital DNA in SL: http://bit.ly/VRHacksSLmap
> Digital DNA in Blue Mars: http://bit.ly/BMclient
> --
> "Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
> infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde
> 
> ___
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Re: [opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVPTopics to a different mailing list

[VR Hacks]

Imo, some people fail to see the TPVp for what it is. To wit:

A) Any and all developers who develop a client for connecting to the second 
life grid must adhere to a basic set of rules. To reiterate, the TPV policy 
does not just apply to devs extending the lab's code base. To wit:

"This Policy governs access to Second Life and our technical platform that 
supports Second Life by any Third-Party Viewer, by which we mean any 
third-party software client, regardless of its source code, that logs into 
our servers. This includes software for viewing Second Life, any chat 
clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not 
be listed in our Viewer Directory." (http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php 
, paragraph two)

In other words, should I decide to write a "from scratch" viewer to access 
the grid, then I must code my viewer such that it adheres to their TPV 
policy.

B) Any developer who develops and/or distributes their viewer is 
"responsible" (please note the operative word, responsible) for whatever 
code they've implemented. In other words, it is up to them to a) debug their 
own code, b) write their own EULA, and c) define & implement a user support 
model. Should they choose to do none of the above, that is their choice, as 
well.

Otherwise put, responsible and smart coders will *always* include a EULA 
with their binary distribution (regardless of whether or not it was designed 
to connect to the grid). Why? Because it sets end user expectation. It 
ensures you, as devs, will not end up in a infinite "support for free" loop, 
and importantly, it provides legal protection should your code have a bug 
that you did not catch.

As for the GPL argument. That is moot. Or rather, as Joe so noted, "The TPV 
is orthogonal to the GPL."

That being said and all things considered, imo, the lab has been quite 
magnanimous when it comes to third party viewer devs. After all, they are 
not required to provide "free advertising" via TPV directory that is 
designed to set a bar for inclusion, which in turn reduces the chance that 
the neils of this world will be able to include their viewer, while at the 
same time, increases consumer confidence in the viewers listed in that 
directory. Nor is the lab required to "pardon" people who had been 
previously banned such that same said may participate in the viewer 
directory program.

Angela Talamasca (in-world)
MA Forensic Psychology


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--
"Ordinary riches can be stolen, real riches cannot. In your soul are 
infinitely precious things that cannot be taken from you." - Oscar Wilde

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