Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
On 2010-09-11 14:11, Dilly Dobbs wrote: On 9/11/2010 1:05 PM, Robert Martin wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbsdillydo...@gmail.com wrote: We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. Opinions, and ideas on this ? I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an indoor type inworld location for this?? I think that i would be able to provide us with a meeting place on the grid. My wife i am sure would be willing to give us a meeting place on the grid. And i would be willing to foot the group costs as long as they don't get out of control. Feel free to use the Hippotropolis Theater http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/241/29/23 or there are some nice meeting spaces both indoor and outdoor in the nearby Open Source Park http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/37/233/22 if there are other in-world resources that would be helpful, contact me. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
Thanks OZ Now we need to get others to come and chat about it and see if we can come up with a plan. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) o...@lindenlab.com wrote: On 2010-09-11 14:11, Dilly Dobbs wrote: On 9/11/2010 1:05 PM, Robert Martin wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbsdillydo...@gmail.com dillydo...@gmail.com wrote: We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. Opinions, and ideas on this ? I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an indoor type inworld location for this?? I think that i would be able to provide us with a meeting place on the grid. My wife i am sure would be willing to give us a meeting place on the grid. And i would be willing to foot the group costs as long as they don't get out of control. Feel free to use the Hippotropolis Theater http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/241/29/23 or there are some nice meeting spaces both indoor and outdoor in the nearby Open Source Park http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/37/233/22 if there are other in-world resources that would be helpful, contact me. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:26:27 -0500 Bunny Halberd bu...@bunnynet.org wrote: 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!) this point have no viewer side solutions :) I think a lot of headway could be made if the open source community and LL worked together to do two things: - Give newbies a fighting chance with a viewer that degrades gracefully. - Provide an easy pathway for newbies to find groups like ours as soon as they're first rezzed in. Give them something to do as soon as they rezz in. Show them how wonderful the SL *PEOPLE* are, not some cold, sterile orientation program. i wish add an old solution: menthors now all viewer can detect language used by resident before he/she login, in place of a unique help-island may be more interesting create one each language and ask to old menthors to hangout here all this isn't related to code, maybe elsewhere will be a better place where discuss deeper about this topic ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:01 AM, Lance Corrimal lance.corri...@eregion.de wrote: Am Sonntag 12 September 2010 schrieb Altair Sythos Memo: 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!) this point have no viewer side solutions :) actually it has... do not add more shinies that raise the hardware requirements even higher... Most of these people have machines that don't even support the shinies so that what does it matter if we add them? And adding support for shinies such as volumetric lighting would get rid of those ugly semi transparent cones around lights and speed things up for people on low end machines that have it disabled. See, it's a win win situation, I get my shinies and they get better performace. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
If LL plan to get more people in, they better lower those requirement, make a low-definition viewer if it can't be done in the current one. Give them minimal tools so they can still connect and enjoy second life. It's true that SL doesn't work everywhere, but the web does. This is in most part why the web is STILL so popular. If the 3D web want to get more people interested it have to lower that entry bar, people really take a while to upgrade their hardware. Lots of people having still 5-10 years old computer and we need to get these people in too. Just my taught but im no specialist. -Message d'origine- From: Lance Corrimal Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 12:01 PM To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) Am Sonntag 12 September 2010 schrieb Altair Sythos Memo: 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!) this point have no viewer side solutions :) actually it has... do not add more shinies that raise the hardware requirements even higher... bye, LC ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Tateru Nino tateru.n...@gmail.com wrote: When you read various responses to Hey, have any of you tried this Second Life thing? there's usually quite a number of responses from people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the problem that they had with it. I've been in SL since late 2006. I have spent most of that time helping to run a community that's extremely newbie friendly. (First as a member, and eventually one of the lead admins.) We fall over ourselves to help newbies feel welcome into Second Life... it's in our blood. That's what we do. I am fairly convinced that if a newbie can get past whatever the Newbie Island thing of the month is, make it pass the first folks they see (that are sometimes there to prey on newbies) and get to a community like ours, the chance of them staying goes *WAY* up. I'm not going to venture a guess, but it's WAY better than the general population. When I talk to newbies about Second Life, and I do this constantly, I hear two general complaints: 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!) 2.) There's nothing to do / I can't find anything to do. Our community helps with item #2. We give them something to do - friendly folks to chat with, events to do, people that are friendly (instead of hostile) to newbies, and the freedom to go explore and ask all the questions they want. Here's the weird thing - if you can meet criteria #2, they are MUCH more likely to put up with #1. We have folks that will turn off drawing avatars (thus turning SL into a glorified chat room with shared music) when things get busy just so they can be there. (And yes, we tell them how to do that if they need to.) Once folks get familiar with SL and its ways, they start finding all kinds of other things to do and eventually leave our community, but I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't look back at us fondly. It makes me smile when folks come back a year later with friends in tow and say this is where I grew up. :) This group can help with item #1. I really think there needs to be a HUGE effort to make the SL viewer degrade gracefully. I, as a community leader, have a computer I keep upgraded just so I can run SL really well. I have to - it's part of my job. But your average newbie, with a several year old machine, isn't going to have that. Sure, they're not going to see the same thing *I* see, but at least they'd be there... computers are upgradeable if the person really wants to stay, and have things look better, but if it's not usable at all on their machine, they aren't gonna be there in the first place. I think a lot of headway could be made if the open source community and LL worked together to do two things: - Give newbies a fighting chance with a viewer that degrades gracefully. - Provide an easy pathway for newbies to find groups like ours as soon as they're first rezzed in. Give them something to do as soon as they rezz in. Show them how wonderful the SL *PEOPLE* are, not some cold, sterile orientation program. - Bunny ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
The things that i see as problems 1 folks seem to more or less sleepwalk through the newbie portal so that we folks in Help areas (i stalk NCI Kuula myself) get asked questions that are answered in the newbie portal. 2 folks seem to tp into the area and have no clue where they have arrived at (folks wanting sex drugs and Roc^HGuns in the NCI area) 3 non english folks that seem to be using telegraph keys to log in that also are completely clueless 4 folks (like Bloodlines) that seem to not understand that a given area may actually have and enforce rules above what the TOS states now of course the UI confusing folks and getting in the way of operating the program DOES NOT HELP 1 this may not be solveable but a general increase in server/sim stability and performance will help 2 a One time popup in case of a newbie portal tp in the form of You have just teleported to %area_name% @ %simpleSLurl% please note the following [short list of flags] This is a %rating_area% for more details see attached notecard 3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer and if the resident could be informed as to what languages are available in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the default newbie pack??) 4 this may require having a Land Group (above X regions held) to be assigned a Linden (or have access to a pool of Lindens) so that a person grazing the TOS could have a Linden Issued Abuse Report on the spot (this would fast track any process since a Linden could certify the AR right then and there) in short if we take care of the problem of chewtoys then newbies may stick around more -- Robert L Martin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
So, should there be a group formed that could address the concerns that we all seem to have on how to improve the n00b experience in SL? We could have meetings and come up with a general direction to take development. And or make proposals to take to LL even if it was in a forum like the dev mailing list. Out of all of the ideas that i have head i have yet to hear one that is not valid and that would require consideration. We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. Opinions, and ideas on this ? I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Robert Martin robertl...@gmail.comwrote: The things that i see as problems 1 folks seem to more or less sleepwalk through the newbie portal so that we folks in Help areas (i stalk NCI Kuula myself) get asked questions that are answered in the newbie portal. 2 folks seem to tp into the area and have no clue where they have arrived at (folks wanting sex drugs and Roc^HGuns in the NCI area) 3 non english folks that seem to be using telegraph keys to log in that also are completely clueless 4 folks (like Bloodlines) that seem to not understand that a given area may actually have and enforce rules above what the TOS states now of course the UI confusing folks and getting in the way of operating the program DOES NOT HELP 1 this may not be solveable but a general increase in server/sim stability and performance will help 2 a One time popup in case of a newbie portal tp in the form of You have just teleported to %area_name% @ %simpleSLurl% please note the following [short list of flags] This is a %rating_area% for more details see attached notecard 3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer and if the resident could be informed as to what languages are available in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the default newbie pack??) 4 this may require having a Land Group (above X regions held) to be assigned a Linden (or have access to a pool of Lindens) so that a person grazing the TOS could have a Linden Issued Abuse Report on the spot (this would fast track any process since a Linden could certify the AR right then and there) in short if we take care of the problem of chewtoys then newbies may stick around more -- Robert L Martin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs dillydo...@gmail.com wrote: We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. Opinions, and ideas on this ? I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an indoor type inworld location for this?? -- Robert L Martin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the viewer is kind of out-of-scope. On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbsdillydo...@gmail.com wrote: We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. Opinions, and ideas on this ? I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an indoor type inworld location for this?? -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the viewer is kind of out-of-scope. On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbsdillydo...@gmail.com wrote: We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. Opinions, and ideas on this ? I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an indoor type inworld location for this?? I would think that we will be coming up with viewer changes and feature requests and or stories to contribute to the list. dilly -- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the viewer is kind of out-of-scope. On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbsdillydo...@gmail.com wrote: We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. Opinions, and ideas on this ? I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an indoor type inworld location for this?? Any one that would like to participate in something like this please feel free to send me an IM in world and we can get the ball rolling. Dilly Dawes in world Thanks Dilly -- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer and if the resident could be informed as to what languages are available in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the default newbie pack??) [...] -- Robert L Martin In case it helps, a script can almost always learn the viewer language with llGetAgentLanguage(). I had a multilingual info station for adult verification that did that, and used agent-specific parcel media to show excerpts of wiki pages in the viewer's choice of language. I learned that almost nobody hides their viewer language. But a few folks took umbrage, insisting that they only set their viewer language to Outer Slobovian because they liked the way it punctuated numbers, or some damned thing, and I shouldn't assume that they wanted content to match the language of their viewer. Were I to do it over again, I might simply have national flags for them to select, and keep track of who clicked which flag. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe)
Sitearm Madonna just hosted a discussion on this topic today. Perhaps you should contact Sitearm for a transcript. From: Dilly Dobbs dillydo...@gmail.com To: Tateru Nino tateru.n...@gmail.com Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 2:39:10 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the viewer is kind of out-of-scope. On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbsdillydo...@gmail.com wrote: We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. Opinions, and ideas on this ? I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an indoor type inworld location for this?? Any one that would like to participate in something like this please feel free to send me an IM in world and we can get the ball rolling. Dilly Dawes in world Thanks Dilly -- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
