Re: [Openstack] [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals

[Rick Clark]

On 01/05/2012 10:57 AM, Lloyd Dewolf wrote:
> Having played a very minor role in this process for WordPress, and
> been an onlooking numerous times, it is always a long and involved
> process.

I don't think any of us don't understand that.  We just want the work
done in the open.  At the last conference in early October the community
was told that documents and a timeline would be up within a month.  No
one was expecting the foundation to be set up already, but we expected
communication.

> Ever try telling the IRS that you don't want to pay taxes?

I'm sure it is difficult, I would love to hear a status update saying
the lawyers are working on that.

> 
> 
> I appreciate the passion of this discussion, but some of it feels ad
> hominem and non-constructive.

If any of this encourages an open process, regardless of length, I
consider that constructive.


> 
> 
> As the process continues to proceeds, who is currently blocked by
> what, so we can rally around the pragmatic causes?
> 
> 
> I can't grow without light,
> Lloyd
> 
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Re: [Openstack] [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals

[Andrew Clay Shafer]

+1

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Lloyd Dewolf  wrote:

> Having played a very minor role in this process for WordPress, and
> been an onlooking numerous times, it is always a long and involved
> process.
>
> Ever try telling the IRS that you don't want to pay taxes?
>
>
> I appreciate the passion of this discussion, but some of it feels ad
> hominem and non-constructive.
>
>
> As the process continues to proceeds, who is currently blocked by
> what, so we can rally around the pragmatic causes?
>
>
> I can't grow without light,
> Lloyd
> ___
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> foundat...@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
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Re: [Openstack] [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals

[Lloyd Dewolf]

Having played a very minor role in this process for WordPress, and
been an onlooking numerous times, it is always a long and involved
process.

Ever try telling the IRS that you don't want to pay taxes?


I appreciate the passion of this discussion, but some of it feels ad
hominem and non-constructive.


As the process continues to proceeds, who is currently blocked by
what, so we can rally around the pragmatic causes?


I can't grow without light,
Lloyd

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Re: [Openstack] [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals

[Rick Clark]

No offense Jonathan, but this seems like meaningless fluff.  Does
Rackspace have anyone dedicated to this fulltime?  The lack of
leadership on this is apparent.  If this was important, appropriate
dedicated resources would be assigned to it. As it is, it appears to be
a stalling tactic.

Rackspace has become a smaller and smaller percentage of the Openstack
universe.  It is unreasonable that it should control the foundation
process. Especially if they are going to take months between updates and
have no visible community participation.

Rackspace needs to hand the process over to a provisional community
group that will pursue a foundation with vigor.

Rick Clark

On 01/04/2012 10:11 PM, Jonathan Bryce wrote:
> To adapt Mark Twain, rumors of the death of the foundation are greatly 
> exaggerated. = )  I hadn't actually heard that rumor yet and don't know where 
> it would be coming from, so thanks for bringing it up so we can address.
> 
> First of all, the foundation is definitely not dead or indefinitely delayed. 
> Sorry for not communicating the status better on the list. There's been a lot 
> of response, and we've been trying to coordinate input from a number of 
> sources. We've also been researching the technical details of what we need to 
> make it happen. At the same time we have not had enough resources to dedicate 
> to it up to this point. To correct that, we've got some additional people, 
> including Mark Collier whom many of you know, working on it as of the 
> beginning of this year to make the foundation happen.
> 
> We also realized we needed to take the initial round of feedback and produce 
> something for people to respond to, tear apart, cheer for, make better. We've 
> tried to take the the feedback from a variety of forums--the session at the 
> design summit, the initial burst of discussion on the list, the input from of 
> in-person meetings and people who have reached out to us directly--and 
> formulate a set of documents to guide the discussion. The first two are a 
> draft mission document for the foundation and a draft of the foundation's 
> organization structure. The mission document is very close to being ready to 
> publish. We will be posting it on the wiki in the next few days. The 
> structure document is still going through revisions but will follow shortly. 
> Following the structure document, we'll get into the process of drafting the 
> actual legal documents for the foundation. We will be linking all of these 
> off the Governance section of the wiki and publishing them for feedback on 
> the list a
s well as reaching back out to the other community members we've talked to.
> 
> So what can you do? Once the documents are posted, we really want feedback 
> from everyone on them. As they're posted and we get feedback, we'll refine 
> them and post final versions on the website. In the meantime, also continue 
> to discuss whatever points you feel are important on the mailing list. We're 
> reading everything and incorporating what's talked about.
> 
> And anyone can always reach out to me or Mark directly if you have questions 
> or comments. Thanks,
> 
> Jonathan.
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 6:14 PM, Jan Drake wrote:
> 
>> So, no messages since October.  Rumor has it the effort is dead or 
>> indefinitely delayed... what's the deal?
>>
>>
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>> From: jan_dr...@hotmail.com
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:18:46 -0700
>>> To: sandy.wa...@rackspace.com
>>> CC: foundat...@lists.openstack.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 20, 2011, at 9:49 AM, Sandy Walsh  wrote:
>>>
 +1

 How can you decide if you want to join a foundation if you don't know what 
 it stands for?

 -S


 
 I think a discussion about what OpenStack is and isn't should
 definitely be had before the Foundation is set up. Otherwise, I
 imagine people will view the Foundation as being some sort of Wild
 West land grab, where companies are trying to shape what OpenStack is
 by fiat or by trying to buy control.

 Just a thought,
 -jay
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Re: [Openstack] [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals

[Thierry Carrez]

Jan Drake wrote:
> Added the general list because this needs awareness.
> 
> I think the idea that commuity pressure should be required is bullshit.  
> That's a weakness of the leaders of the community.  They don't get off the 
> hook because the community isn't yammering at them... otherwise we'd vote on 
> every damned thing (maybe we should rather than having "elected" leaders?).  
> A commitment to open discussion and discourse that doesnt get followed 
> through by the leaders  whom commit to it is essentially a betrayal to the 
> community.  No different than being elected to congress and ignoring the 
> promises to the people and the fact you're in the position with the 
> responsibility to help all of them.
> 
> When it is a private organization committing to transition to a foundation 
> and there is no accountability or transparency it is tragically reminiscent 
> of third world regimes alleging their transition to democracy.
> 
> So, what's the truth, oh transitional leaders?  Where's the schedule?  
> Where's the "open communication and community For

Cross-posting for those only following the openstack list: please note
that Jonathan Bryce posted the following answer to the foundation list
(the Foundation archives seem to be a bit buggy):

> To adapt Mark Twain, rumors of the death of the foundation are greatly 
> exaggerated. = )  I hadn't actually heard that rumor yet and don't know where 
> it would be coming from, so thanks for bringing it up so we can address.
> 
> First of all, the foundation is definitely not dead or indefinitely delayed. 
> Sorry for not communicating the status better on the list. There's been a lot 
> of response, and we've been trying to coordinate input from a number of 
> sources. We've also been researching the technical details of what we need to 
> make it happen. At the same time we have not had enough resources to dedicate 
> to it up to this point. To correct that, we've got some additional people, 
> including Mark Collier whom many of you know, working on it as of the 
> beginning of this year to make the foundation happen.
> 
> We also realized we needed to take the initial round of feedback and produce 
> something for people to respond to, tear apart, cheer for, make better. We've 
> tried to take the the feedback from a variety of forums--the session at the 
> design summit, the initial burst of discussion on the list, the input from of 
> in-person meetings and people who have reached out to us directly--and 
> formulate a set of documents to guide the discussion. The first two are a 
> draft mission document for the foundation and a draft of the foundation's 
> organization structure. The mission document is very close to being ready to 
> publish. We will be posting it on the wiki in the next few days. The 
> structure document is still going through revisions but will follow shortly. 
> Following the structure document, we'll get into the process of drafting the 
> actual legal documents for the foundation. We will be linking all of these 
> off the Governance section of the wiki and publishing them for feedback on 
> the list a
s well as reaching back out to the other community members we've talked to.
> 
> So what can you do? Once the documents are posted, we really want feedback 
> from everyone on them. As they're posted and we get feedback, we'll refine 
> them and post final versions on the website. In the meantime, also continue 
> to discuss whatever points you feel are important on the mailing list. We're 
> reading everything and incorporating what's talked about.
> 
> And anyone can always reach out to me or Mark directly if you have questions 
> or comments. Thanks,
> 
> Jonathan.

As a community member (and PPB elected member), I'm happy to get some
report of progress towards the setting up of the Foundation, and I'm
awaiting the initial posting of the documents so that we can start
giving constructive feedback.

Jan: To be clear, the "transitional leaders" owning the transition
process are not the PPB members -- the governance of OpenStack is still
owned solely by Rackspace. As Jonathan says, the first draft of the
documents are prepared by him and Mark Collier.

Regards,

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals

[Jan Drake]

Added the general list because this needs awareness.

I think the idea that commuity pressure should be required is bullshit.  That's 
a weakness of the leaders of the community.  They don't get off the hook 
because the community isn't yammering at them... otherwise we'd vote on every 
damned thing (maybe we should rather than having "elected" leaders?).  A 
commitment to open discussion and discourse that doesnt get followed through by 
the leaders  whom commit to it is essentially a betrayal to the community.  No 
different than being elected to congress and ignoring the promises to the 
people and the fact you're in the position with the responsibility to help all 
of them.

When it is a private organization committing to transition to a foundation and 
there is no accountability or transparency it is tragically reminiscent of 
third world regimes alleging their transition to democracy.

So, what's the truth, oh transitional leaders?  Where's the schedule?  Where's 
the "open communication and community involvement"?



Jan


On Jan 4, 2012, at 7:25 PM, Rick Clark  wrote:

> I think some community pressure is in order.  After the initial PR bump
> of the announcement, perhaps the pressure is a bit low.  I really hope
> that this is more than a PR.
> 
> I have been surprised how many people think a foundation already exists.
> 
> Perhaps we can make some suggestions.
> 
> I suggest that as of the next election cycle, all of the PPB is elected,
> including the Chair.
> 
> 
> 
> On 01/04/2012 06:19 PM, Cole Crawford wrote:
>> Hey Jan!
>> 
>> Hope that's not the case.  That would be a sad day for Openstack!!
>> 
>> From: Jan Drake mailto:jan_dr...@hotmail.com>>
>> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 16:18:04 -0800
>> To: mailto:sandy.wa...@rackspace.com>>
>> Cc: mailto:foundat...@lists.openstack.org>>, 
>> mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net>>
>> Subject: Re: [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> So, no messages since October.  Rumor has it the effort is dead or 
>> indefinitely delayed... what's the deal?
>> 
>> 
>> Jan
>> 
>> 
>>> From: jan_dr...@hotmail.com
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:18:46 -0700
>>> To: sandy.wa...@rackspace.com
>>> CC: foundat...@lists.openstack.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals
>>> 
>>> +1
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 20, 2011, at 9:49 AM, Sandy Walsh 
>>> mailto:sandy.wa...@rackspace.com>> wrote:
>>> 
 +1
 
 How can you decide if you want to join a foundation if you don't know what 
 it stands for?
 
 -S
 
 
 
 I think a discussion about what OpenStack is and isn't should
 definitely be had before the Foundation is set up. Otherwise, I
 imagine people will view the Foundation as being some sort of Wild
 West land grab, where companies are trying to shape what OpenStack is
 by fiat or by trying to buy control.
 
 Just a thought,
 -jay
 ___
 Foundation mailing list
 foundat...@lists.openstack.org
 http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
 This email may include confidential information. If you received it in 
 error, please delete it.
 
 ___
 Foundation mailing list
 foundat...@lists.openstack.org
 http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
 
>>> ___
>>> Foundation mailing list
>>> foundat...@lists.openstack.org
>>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>> ___ Foundation mailing list 
>> foundat...@lists.openstack.org 
>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Openstack] [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals

[Jan Drake]

So, no messages since October.  Rumor has it the effort is dead or indefinitely 
delayed... what's the deal?


Jan


> From: jan_dr...@hotmail.com
> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:18:46 -0700
> To: sandy.wa...@rackspace.com
> CC: foundat...@lists.openstack.org
> Subject: Re: [OpenStack Foundation] OpenStack Mission & Goals
> 
> +1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 20, 2011, at 9:49 AM, Sandy Walsh  wrote:
> 
> > +1
> > 
> > How can you decide if you want to join a foundation if you don't know what 
> > it stands for?
> > 
> > -S
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I think a discussion about what OpenStack is and isn't should
> > definitely be had before the Foundation is set up. Otherwise, I
> > imagine people will view the Foundation as being some sort of Wild
> > West land grab, where companies are trying to shape what OpenStack is
> > by fiat or by trying to buy control.
> > 
> > Just a thought,
> > -jay
> > ___
> > Foundation mailing list
> > foundat...@lists.openstack.org
> > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
> > This email may include confidential information. If you received it in 
> > error, please delete it.
> > 
> > ___
> > Foundation mailing list
> > foundat...@lists.openstack.org
> > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
> > 
> ___
> Foundation mailing list
> foundat...@lists.openstack.org
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