Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [api] Re-Reminder on the state of WSME

2018-04-23 Thread Dmitry Tantsur 

ironic-inspector is using Flask, and it has been quite nice so far.

On 04/11/2018 12:56 AM, Michael Johnson wrote:

I echo Ben's question about what is the recommended replacement.

Not long ago we were advised to use WSME over the alternatives which
is why Octavia is using the WSME types and pecan extension.

Thanks,
Michael

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Ben Nemec  wrote:



On 04/09/2018 07:22 AM, Chris Dent wrote:



A little over two years ago I sent a reminder that WSME is not being
actively maintained:


http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-March/088658.html

Today I was reminded of this becasue a random (typo-related)
patchset demonstrated that the tests were no longer passing and
fixing them is enough of a chore that I (at least temporarily)
marked one test as an expected failure.o

  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/559717/

The following projects appear to still use WSME:

  aodh
  blazar
  cloudkitty
  cloudpulse
  cyborg
  glance
  gluon
  iotronic
  ironic
  magnum
  mistral
  mogan
  octavia
  panko
  qinling
  radar
  ranger
  searchlight
  solum
  storyboard
  surveil
  terracotta
  watcher

Most of these are using the 'types' handling in WSME and sometimes
the pecan extension, and not the (potentially broken) Flask
extension, so things should be stable.

However: nobody is working on keeping WSME up to date. It is not a
good long term investment.



What would be the recommended alternative, either for new work or as a
migration path for existing projects?

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev


__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev




__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [api] Re-Reminder on the state of WSME

2018-04-11 Thread Chris Dent 

On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, Michael Johnson wrote:


I am willing to help with maintenance (patch reviews/gate fixes), but
I cannot commit time to development work on it.


Michael and I also spoke in IRC and he too is now a WSME core.

Thanks to both of you for stepping up and being willing to help out.

--
Chris Dent   ٩◔̯◔۶   https://anticdent.org/
freenode: cdent tw: @anticdent__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [api] Re-Reminder on the state of WSME

2018-04-11 Thread Michael Johnson 
I am willing to help with maintenance (patch reviews/gate fixes), but
I cannot commit time to development work on it.

Michael

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 6:21 AM, Chris Dent  wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, Dougal Matthews wrote:
>
>> I would like to see us move away from WSME. I'm not sure I have time to
>> drive an effort in finding a replacement (and migration path) but I would
>> certainly like to help.
>
>
> Dougal and I talked about this in IRC and agreed that being able to
> merge changes in WSME would help the goal of establishing a
> migration path. So I've added him to WSME cores.
>
>
> --
> Chris Dent   ٩◔̯◔۶   https://anticdent.org/
> freenode: cdent tw: @anticdent
>
> __
> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
>

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [api] Re-Reminder on the state of WSME

2018-04-11 Thread Chris Dent 

On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, Dougal Matthews wrote:


I would like to see us move away from WSME. I'm not sure I have time to
drive an effort in finding a replacement (and migration path) but I would
certainly like to help.


Dougal and I talked about this in IRC and agreed that being able to
merge changes in WSME would help the goal of establishing a
migration path. So I've added him to WSME cores.

--
Chris Dent   ٩◔̯◔۶   https://anticdent.org/
freenode: cdent tw: @anticdent__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [api] Re-Reminder on the state of WSME

2018-04-11 Thread Dougal Matthews 
On 11 April 2018 at 11:39, Chris Dent  wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Apr 2018, Michael Johnson wrote:
>
> I echo Ben's question about what is the recommended replacement.
>>
>
> It's a good question. Unfortunately I don't have a good answer. My
> involvement in WSME is simply the result of submitting some bug fixes
> in early 2015 and there being no one to review them. Lucas Gomes and
> I were pressganged into becoming the sole core reviews for a project
> that was already languishing.
>
> A short answer could be this: There doesn't have to be a
> replacement. There are people in the community who are active users
> of WSME, if those people would like to become maintainers of WSME,
> Lucas and I can make those people core and help them to shepherd the
> project to an active state. It may be that nothing really needs to
> change. The reason this is coming up now is because a code change
> was proposed that failed the gate because for unrelated reasons (the
> pep8 python3 thing mentioned elsewhere). If the existing feature set
> is sufficient the only real work to do is to keep those features
> working as we move to python3.
>

I would like to see us move away from WSME. I'm not sure I have time to
drive an effort in finding a replacement (and migration path) but I would
certainly like to help.


>
> Any volunteers?
>
> For new projects, I think the standby is Flask + jsonschema. They
> are both boring and common.
>
> I know some people really like django REST framework, but it appears
> to have lots of magic and magic is bad.
>
> The longer answer is just opinion so if the above is enough of an
> answer you can stop here before I go off on a ramble.
>
> I've never really been all that sure on what WSME is for. It
> describes itself with "simplifies the writing of REST web services
> by providing simple yet powerful typing, removing the need to
> directly manipulate the request and the response objects." This is
> pretty much exactly the opposite of what I want when writing a web
> service. I want to be closely aware of the request and response and
> not abstract away the details of HTTP because those details are what
> makes a web service useful and maintainable. So I tend to avoid
> typing systems like WSME and object dispatch systems like pecan in
> favor of tools that are more explicit about the data (both headers
> and body) coming in and going out, and that make the association
> between URLs and code explicit rather than implicit.
>
> That is: you want to write code for the API layer so that future
> maintainers of that code find it easy to trace the path through the
> code that a request takes without having to make a lot of guesses or
> de-serialize (in their heads) an object inheritance hierarchy.
>
> Flask can do that, if you chose to use it that way, but like many
> tools it also allows you to do things in confusing ways too.
>
> I personally don't think that consistency of web framework across
> OpenStack projects is important. What's important is:
>
> * The exposed HTTP APIs have some degree of consistency (that is,
>   they don't have glaring differences in grammar and semantics).
> * The code is low on abstraction and high on scrutability so that
>   future maintainers aren't scratching their heads.
> * Any frameworks chosen (if any) are maintained by the broader
>   Python community and are not OpenStack snowflakes.
>
> Committing to any particular framework is the same as committing to
> being wrong and calcified in some fairly short amount of time.
>
> Who wants to volunteer to help maintain WSME?
>
>
> --
> Chris Dent   ٩◔̯◔۶   https://anticdent.org/
> freenode: cdent tw: @anticdent
>
> __
> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
>
>
__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [api] Re-Reminder on the state of WSME

2018-04-11 Thread Chris Dent 

On Tue, 10 Apr 2018, Michael Johnson wrote:


I echo Ben's question about what is the recommended replacement.


It's a good question. Unfortunately I don't have a good answer. My
involvement in WSME is simply the result of submitting some bug fixes
in early 2015 and there being no one to review them. Lucas Gomes and
I were pressganged into becoming the sole core reviews for a project
that was already languishing.

A short answer could be this: There doesn't have to be a
replacement. There are people in the community who are active users
of WSME, if those people would like to become maintainers of WSME,
Lucas and I can make those people core and help them to shepherd the
project to an active state. It may be that nothing really needs to
change. The reason this is coming up now is because a code change
was proposed that failed the gate because for unrelated reasons (the
pep8 python3 thing mentioned elsewhere). If the existing feature set
is sufficient the only real work to do is to keep those features
working as we move to python3.

Any volunteers?

For new projects, I think the standby is Flask + jsonschema. They
are both boring and common.

I know some people really like django REST framework, but it appears
to have lots of magic and magic is bad.

The longer answer is just opinion so if the above is enough of an
answer you can stop here before I go off on a ramble.

I've never really been all that sure on what WSME is for. It
describes itself with "simplifies the writing of REST web services
by providing simple yet powerful typing, removing the need to
directly manipulate the request and the response objects." This is
pretty much exactly the opposite of what I want when writing a web
service. I want to be closely aware of the request and response and
not abstract away the details of HTTP because those details are what
makes a web service useful and maintainable. So I tend to avoid
typing systems like WSME and object dispatch systems like pecan in
favor of tools that are more explicit about the data (both headers
and body) coming in and going out, and that make the association
between URLs and code explicit rather than implicit.

That is: you want to write code for the API layer so that future
maintainers of that code find it easy to trace the path through the
code that a request takes without having to make a lot of guesses or
de-serialize (in their heads) an object inheritance hierarchy.

Flask can do that, if you chose to use it that way, but like many
tools it also allows you to do things in confusing ways too.

I personally don't think that consistency of web framework across
OpenStack projects is important. What's important is:

* The exposed HTTP APIs have some degree of consistency (that is,
  they don't have glaring differences in grammar and semantics).
* The code is low on abstraction and high on scrutability so that
  future maintainers aren't scratching their heads.
* Any frameworks chosen (if any) are maintained by the broader
  Python community and are not OpenStack snowflakes.

Committing to any particular framework is the same as committing to
being wrong and calcified in some fairly short amount of time.

Who wants to volunteer to help maintain WSME?

--
Chris Dent   ٩◔̯◔۶   https://anticdent.org/
freenode: cdent tw: @anticdent__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [api] Re-Reminder on the state of WSME

2018-04-10 Thread Michael Johnson 
I echo Ben's question about what is the recommended replacement.

Not long ago we were advised to use WSME over the alternatives which
is why Octavia is using the WSME types and pecan extension.

Thanks,
Michael

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Ben Nemec  wrote:
>
>
> On 04/09/2018 07:22 AM, Chris Dent wrote:
>>
>>
>> A little over two years ago I sent a reminder that WSME is not being
>> actively maintained:
>>
>>
>> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-March/088658.html
>>
>> Today I was reminded of this becasue a random (typo-related)
>> patchset demonstrated that the tests were no longer passing and
>> fixing them is enough of a chore that I (at least temporarily)
>> marked one test as an expected failure.o
>>
>>  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/559717/
>>
>> The following projects appear to still use WSME:
>>
>>  aodh
>>  blazar
>>  cloudkitty
>>  cloudpulse
>>  cyborg
>>  glance
>>  gluon
>>  iotronic
>>  ironic
>>  magnum
>>  mistral
>>  mogan
>>  octavia
>>  panko
>>  qinling
>>  radar
>>  ranger
>>  searchlight
>>  solum
>>  storyboard
>>  surveil
>>  terracotta
>>  watcher
>>
>> Most of these are using the 'types' handling in WSME and sometimes
>> the pecan extension, and not the (potentially broken) Flask
>> extension, so things should be stable.
>>
>> However: nobody is working on keeping WSME up to date. It is not a
>> good long term investment.
>
>
> What would be the recommended alternative, either for new work or as a
> migration path for existing projects?
>
> __
> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

Re: [openstack-dev] [all] [api] Re-Reminder on the state of WSME

2018-04-09 Thread Ben Nemec 



On 04/09/2018 07:22 AM, Chris Dent wrote:


A little over two years ago I sent a reminder that WSME is not being
actively maintained:

 
http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-March/088658.html


Today I was reminded of this becasue a random (typo-related)
patchset demonstrated that the tests were no longer passing and
fixing them is enough of a chore that I (at least temporarily)
marked one test as an expected failure.o

     https://review.openstack.org/#/c/559717/

The following projects appear to still use WSME:

     aodh
     blazar
     cloudkitty
     cloudpulse
     cyborg
     glance
     gluon
     iotronic
     ironic
     magnum
     mistral
     mogan
     octavia
     panko
     qinling
     radar
     ranger
     searchlight
     solum
     storyboard
     surveil
     terracotta
     watcher

Most of these are using the 'types' handling in WSME and sometimes
the pecan extension, and not the (potentially broken) Flask
extension, so things should be stable.

However: nobody is working on keeping WSME up to date. It is not a
good long term investment.


What would be the recommended alternative, either for new work or as a 
migration path for existing projects?


__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev

[openstack-dev] [all] [api] Re-Reminder on the state of WSME

2018-04-09 Thread Chris Dent 


A little over two years ago I sent a reminder that WSME is not being
actively maintained:

http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-March/088658.html

Today I was reminded of this becasue a random (typo-related)
patchset demonstrated that the tests were no longer passing and
fixing them is enough of a chore that I (at least temporarily)
marked one test as an expected failure.o

https://review.openstack.org/#/c/559717/

The following projects appear to still use WSME:

aodh
blazar
cloudkitty
cloudpulse
cyborg
glance
gluon
iotronic
ironic
magnum
mistral
mogan
octavia
panko
qinling
radar
ranger
searchlight
solum
storyboard
surveil
terracotta
watcher

Most of these are using the 'types' handling in WSME and sometimes
the pecan extension, and not the (potentially broken) Flask
extension, so things should be stable.

However: nobody is working on keeping WSME up to date. It is not a
good long term investment.

--
Chris Dent   ٩◔̯◔۶   https://anticdent.org/
freenode: cdent tw: @anticdent__
OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev