Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Queens PTG: Thursday summary
Not ideal because we also have the real usecase for community images. When users start to create/use community images these different use cases (old public and real community) will be mixed. Cheers, Belmiro On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 at 15:37, Blair Bethwaitewrote: > On 27 September 2017 at 22:40, Belmiro Moreira > wrote: > > In the past we used the tabs but latest Horizon versions use the > visibility > > column/search instead. > > The issue is that we would like the old images to continue to be > > discoverable by everyone and have a image list that only shows the latest > > ones. > > Yeah I think we hit that as well and have a patch for category > listing. It's not something I have worked on but Sam can fill the > gaps... or it could be that this is actually the last problem we have > left with upgrading to a current version of the dashboard and so are > effectively in the same boat. > > > We are now using the “community” visibility to hide the old images from > the > > default image list. But it’s not ideal. > > Not ideal because you don't want them discoverable at all? > > > I will move the old spec about image lifecycle to glance. > > https://review.openstack.org/#/c/327980/ > > Looks like a useful spec! > > -- > Cheers, > ~Blairo > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Queens PTG: Thursday summary
On 27 September 2017 at 22:40, Belmiro Moreirawrote: > In the past we used the tabs but latest Horizon versions use the visibility > column/search instead. > The issue is that we would like the old images to continue to be > discoverable by everyone and have a image list that only shows the latest > ones. Yeah I think we hit that as well and have a patch for category listing. It's not something I have worked on but Sam can fill the gaps... or it could be that this is actually the last problem we have left with upgrading to a current version of the dashboard and so are effectively in the same boat. > We are now using the “community” visibility to hide the old images from the > default image list. But it’s not ideal. Not ideal because you don't want them discoverable at all? > I will move the old spec about image lifecycle to glance. > https://review.openstack.org/#/c/327980/ Looks like a useful spec! -- Cheers, ~Blairo __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Queens PTG: Thursday summary
Hi Blair, In the past we used the tabs but latest Horizon versions use the visibility column/search instead. The issue is that we would like the old images to continue to be discoverable by everyone and have a image list that only shows the latest ones. If the images continue to be public they will be shown by the CLIs in the default image-list. In our case the list was very long. We are now using the “community” visibility to hide the old images from the default image list. But it’s not ideal. I will move the old spec about image lifecycle to glance. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/327980/ Cheers, Belmiro On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 at 00:25, Blair Bethwaitewrote: > Hi Belmiro, > > > On 20 Sep. 2017 7:58 pm, "Belmiro Moreira" < > moreira.belmiro.email.li...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Discovering the latest image release is hard. So we added an image > property "recommended" > > that we update when a new image release is available. Also, we patched > horizon to show > > the "recommended" images first. > > There is built in support in Horizon that allows displaying multiple image > category tabs where each takes contents from the list of images owned by a > specific project/tenant. In the Nectar research cloud this is what we rely > on to distinguish between "Public", "Project", "Nectar" (the base images we > maintain), and "Contributed" (images contributed by users who wish them to > be tested by us and effectively promoted as quality assured). When we > update a "Nectar" or "Contributed" image the old version stays public but > is moved into a project for deprecated images of that category, where > eventually we can clean it up. > > > > This helps our users to identify the latest image release but we > continue to show for > > each project the full list of public images + all personal user images. > > Could you use the same model as us? > > Cheers, > b1airo > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Queens PTG: Thursday summary
Hi Belmiro, On 20 Sep. 2017 7:58 pm, "Belmiro Moreira" < moreira.belmiro.email.li...@gmail.com> wrote: > Discovering the latest image release is hard. So we added an image property "recommended" > that we update when a new image release is available. Also, we patched horizon to show > the "recommended" images first. There is built in support in Horizon that allows displaying multiple image category tabs where each takes contents from the list of images owned by a specific project/tenant. In the Nectar research cloud this is what we rely on to distinguish between "Public", "Project", "Nectar" (the base images we maintain), and "Contributed" (images contributed by users who wish them to be tested by us and effectively promoted as quality assured). When we update a "Nectar" or "Contributed" image the old version stays public but is moved into a project for deprecated images of that category, where eventually we can clean it up. > This helps our users to identify the latest image release but we continue to show for > each project the full list of public images + all personal user images. Could you use the same model as us? Cheers, b1airo __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Queens PTG: Thursday summary
Hi Belmiro, Thanks for the feedback about the "hidden" property. To push this along, would you mind reading through this patch and the comments on it and responding? Or if you think it's close to a working proposal, you could grab the text, revise, make Fei Long a co-author, and propose it for approved/queens, and the community can continue the discussion there. cheers, brian On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 4:58 AM, Belmiro Moreirawrote: > Hi Brian, > > as we discussed in the past the image lifecycle has been a problem for us > > for a long time. > > > > However, I have some concerns in adding/maintaining a new project only to > help the > > image discovery. > > > > At CERN we have a small set of images that we maintain and offer as "public" > images > > to our users. Over the years this list has been growing because new image > releases. > > We keep the old images releases with visibility "public" because old bugs in > nova > > (already fixed) when live/resize/migrate instances and because we have some > usecases > > that the user needs a very old release. > > > > Discovering the latest image release is hard. So we added an image property > "recommended" > > that we update when a new image release is available. Also, we patched > horizon to show > > the "recommended" images first. > > > > This helps our users to identify the latest image release but we continue to > show for > > each project the full list of public images + all personal user images. Some > projects > > have an image list of hundreds of images. > > > > Having a "hidden" property as you are proposing would be great! > > > > For now, we are planning to solve this problem using/abusing of the > visibility "community". > > Changing the visibility of old images releases to "community" will hide them > from the default > > "image-list" but they will continue discoverable and available. > > > > > Belmiro > > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:24 PM, Brian Rosmaita > wrote: >> >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 7:47 AM, Belmiro Moreira >> wrote: >> > Hi Brian, >> > Thanks for the sessions summaries. >> > >> > We are really interested in the image lifecycle support. >> > Can you elaborate how searchlight would help solving this problem? >> >> The role we see for searchlight is more on the image discovery end of >> the problem. The context is that we were trying to think of a small >> set of image metadata that could uniquely identify a series of images >> (os_dist, os_version, local_version) so that it would be easy for end >> users to discover the most recent revision with all the security >> updates, etc. For example, you might have: >> >> initial release of public image: os_distro=MyOS, os_version=3.2, >> local_version=1 >> security update to package P1: os_distro=MyOS, os_version=3.2, >> local_version=2 >> security update to package P2: os_distro=MyOS, os_version=3.2, >> local_version=4 >> >> The image_id would be different on each of these, and the operator >> would prefer that users boot from the most recent. Suppose an >> operator also offers a pre-built database image built on each of >> these, and a pre-built LAMP stack built on each of these, etc. Each >> would have the same os_distro and os_version value, so we'd need >> another field to distinguish them, maybe os_content (values: bare, db, >> lamp). But then with the database image, for a particular (os_distro, >> os_version, os_content) tuple, there might be several different images >> built for the popular versions of that DB, so we'd need another field >> for that as well. So ultimately it looks like you'd need to make a >> complicated query across several image properties, and searchlight >> would easily allow you to do that. >> >> This still leaves us with the problem of making it simple to locate >> the most recent version of each series of images, and that would be >> where something like a 'hidden' property would come in. It's been >> proposed before, but was rejected, I think because it didn't cover >> enough use cases. But that was pre-searchlight, so introducing a >> 'hidden' field may be a good move now. It would be interesting to >> hear what you think about that. >> >> >> > >> > thanks, >> > Belmiro >> > CERN >> > >> > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Brian Rosmaita >> > >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> For those who couldn't attend, here's a quick synopsis of what was >> >> discussed yesterday. >> >> >> >> Please consult the etherpad for each session for details. Feel free >> >> to put questions/comments on the etherpads, and then put an item on >> >> the agenda for the weekly meeting on Thursday 21 September, and we'll >> >> continue the discussion. >> >> >> >> >> >> Complexity removal >> >> -- >> >> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-complexity-removal >> >> >> >> In terms of a complexity contribution barrier,
Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Queens PTG: Thursday summary
Hi Brian, as we discussed in the past the image lifecycle has been a problem for us for a long time. However, I have some concerns in adding/maintaining a new project only to help the image discovery. At CERN we have a small set of images that we maintain and offer as "public" images to our users. Over the years this list has been growing because new image releases. We keep the old images releases with visibility "public" because old bugs in nova (already fixed) when live/resize/migrate instances and because we have some usecases that the user needs a very old release. Discovering the latest image release is hard. So we added an image property "recommended" that we update when a new image release is available. Also, we patched horizon to show the "recommended" images first. This helps our users to identify the latest image release but we continue to show for each project the full list of public images + all personal user images. Some projects have an image list of hundreds of images. Having a "hidden" property as you are proposing would be great! For now, we are planning to solve this problem using/abusing of the visibility "community". Changing the visibility of old images releases to "community" will hide them from the default "image-list" but they will continue discoverable and available. Belmiro On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:24 PM, Brian Rosmaitawrote: > On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 7:47 AM, Belmiro Moreira > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > Thanks for the sessions summaries. > > > > We are really interested in the image lifecycle support. > > Can you elaborate how searchlight would help solving this problem? > > The role we see for searchlight is more on the image discovery end of > the problem. The context is that we were trying to think of a small > set of image metadata that could uniquely identify a series of images > (os_dist, os_version, local_version) so that it would be easy for end > users to discover the most recent revision with all the security > updates, etc. For example, you might have: > > initial release of public image: os_distro=MyOS, os_version=3.2, > local_version=1 > security update to package P1: os_distro=MyOS, os_version=3.2, > local_version=2 > security update to package P2: os_distro=MyOS, os_version=3.2, > local_version=4 > > The image_id would be different on each of these, and the operator > would prefer that users boot from the most recent. Suppose an > operator also offers a pre-built database image built on each of > these, and a pre-built LAMP stack built on each of these, etc. Each > would have the same os_distro and os_version value, so we'd need > another field to distinguish them, maybe os_content (values: bare, db, > lamp). But then with the database image, for a particular (os_distro, > os_version, os_content) tuple, there might be several different images > built for the popular versions of that DB, so we'd need another field > for that as well. So ultimately it looks like you'd need to make a > complicated query across several image properties, and searchlight > would easily allow you to do that. > > This still leaves us with the problem of making it simple to locate > the most recent version of each series of images, and that would be > where something like a 'hidden' property would come in. It's been > proposed before, but was rejected, I think because it didn't cover > enough use cases. But that was pre-searchlight, so introducing a > 'hidden' field may be a good move now. It would be interesting to > hear what you think about that. > > > > > > thanks, > > Belmiro > > CERN > > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Brian Rosmaita < > rosmaita.foss...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> For those who couldn't attend, here's a quick synopsis of what was > >> discussed yesterday. > >> > >> Please consult the etherpad for each session for details. Feel free > >> to put questions/comments on the etherpads, and then put an item on > >> the agenda for the weekly meeting on Thursday 21 September, and we'll > >> continue the discussion. > >> > >> > >> Complexity removal > >> -- > >> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-complexity-removal > >> > >> In terms of a complexity contribution barrier, everyone agreed that > >> the domain model is the largest factor. > >> > >> We also agreed that simplifying it is not something that could happen > >> in the Queens cycle. It's probably a two-cycle effort, one cycle to > >> ensure sufficient test coverage, and one cycle to refactor. Given the > >> strategic planning session yesterday, we probably wouldn't want to > >> tackle this until after the registry is completely removed, which is > >> projected to happen in S. > >> > >> > >> Image lifecycle support > >> --- > >> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-lifecycle > >> > >> We sketched out several approaches, but trying
Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Queens PTG: Thursday summary
On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 7:47 AM, Belmiro Moreirawrote: > Hi Brian, > Thanks for the sessions summaries. > > We are really interested in the image lifecycle support. > Can you elaborate how searchlight would help solving this problem? The role we see for searchlight is more on the image discovery end of the problem. The context is that we were trying to think of a small set of image metadata that could uniquely identify a series of images (os_dist, os_version, local_version) so that it would be easy for end users to discover the most recent revision with all the security updates, etc. For example, you might have: initial release of public image: os_distro=MyOS, os_version=3.2, local_version=1 security update to package P1: os_distro=MyOS, os_version=3.2, local_version=2 security update to package P2: os_distro=MyOS, os_version=3.2, local_version=4 The image_id would be different on each of these, and the operator would prefer that users boot from the most recent. Suppose an operator also offers a pre-built database image built on each of these, and a pre-built LAMP stack built on each of these, etc. Each would have the same os_distro and os_version value, so we'd need another field to distinguish them, maybe os_content (values: bare, db, lamp). But then with the database image, for a particular (os_distro, os_version, os_content) tuple, there might be several different images built for the popular versions of that DB, so we'd need another field for that as well. So ultimately it looks like you'd need to make a complicated query across several image properties, and searchlight would easily allow you to do that. This still leaves us with the problem of making it simple to locate the most recent version of each series of images, and that would be where something like a 'hidden' property would come in. It's been proposed before, but was rejected, I think because it didn't cover enough use cases. But that was pre-searchlight, so introducing a 'hidden' field may be a good move now. It would be interesting to hear what you think about that. > > thanks, > Belmiro > CERN > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Brian Rosmaita > wrote: >> >> For those who couldn't attend, here's a quick synopsis of what was >> discussed yesterday. >> >> Please consult the etherpad for each session for details. Feel free >> to put questions/comments on the etherpads, and then put an item on >> the agenda for the weekly meeting on Thursday 21 September, and we'll >> continue the discussion. >> >> >> Complexity removal >> -- >> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-complexity-removal >> >> In terms of a complexity contribution barrier, everyone agreed that >> the domain model is the largest factor. >> >> We also agreed that simplifying it is not something that could happen >> in the Queens cycle. It's probably a two-cycle effort, one cycle to >> ensure sufficient test coverage, and one cycle to refactor. Given the >> strategic planning session yesterday, we probably wouldn't want to >> tackle this until after the registry is completely removed, which is >> projected to happen in S. >> >> >> Image lifecycle support >> --- >> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-lifecycle >> >> We sketched out several approaches, but trying to figure out a >> solution that would work across different types of deployments and >> various use cases gets complicated fast. It would be better for >> deployers to use Searchlight to configure complex queries that could >> use all appropriate image metadata specified by the deployer. >> >> For interoperability, deployers could use the common image properties >> with suggested values on their public images. >> >> We looked at two particular approaches that might help operators. The >> first would be introducing a kind of 'local_version' field that would >> be auto-incremented by Glance, the idea being that an image-list query >> that asked for the max value would yield the most recent version of >> that image. One problem, however, is what other metadata would be >> used in the query, as there might be several versions of images with >> the same os_distro and os_version properties (for example, the base >> CentOS 7 image and the LAMP CentOS 7 image). >> >> The second approach is introducing a 'hidden' property which would >> cause the image to be hidden from any image list calls (except for the >> image owner or glance admin). This has been requested before, but >> hasn't been enthusiastically endorsed because it leaves out several >> use cases. But combined with Searchlight (with an updated glance >> plugin to understand the 'hidden' field), it might be the best >> solution. >> >> >> Should Glance be replaced? >> -- >> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-glance-removal >> >> The short answer is No. Glance is the best way for
Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Queens PTG: Thursday summary
Hi Brian, Thanks for the sessions summaries. We are really interested in the image lifecycle support. Can you elaborate how searchlight would help solving this problem? thanks, Belmiro CERN On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Brian Rosmaitawrote: > For those who couldn't attend, here's a quick synopsis of what was > discussed yesterday. > > Please consult the etherpad for each session for details. Feel free > to put questions/comments on the etherpads, and then put an item on > the agenda for the weekly meeting on Thursday 21 September, and we'll > continue the discussion. > > > Complexity removal > -- > https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-complexity-removal > > In terms of a complexity contribution barrier, everyone agreed that > the domain model is the largest factor. > > We also agreed that simplifying it is not something that could happen > in the Queens cycle. It's probably a two-cycle effort, one cycle to > ensure sufficient test coverage, and one cycle to refactor. Given the > strategic planning session yesterday, we probably wouldn't want to > tackle this until after the registry is completely removed, which is > projected to happen in S. > > > Image lifecycle support > --- > https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-lifecycle > > We sketched out several approaches, but trying to figure out a > solution that would work across different types of deployments and > various use cases gets complicated fast. It would be better for > deployers to use Searchlight to configure complex queries that could > use all appropriate image metadata specified by the deployer. > > For interoperability, deployers could use the common image properties > with suggested values on their public images. > > We looked at two particular approaches that might help operators. The > first would be introducing a kind of 'local_version' field that would > be auto-incremented by Glance, the idea being that an image-list query > that asked for the max value would yield the most recent version of > that image. One problem, however, is what other metadata would be > used in the query, as there might be several versions of images with > the same os_distro and os_version properties (for example, the base > CentOS 7 image and the LAMP CentOS 7 image). > > The second approach is introducing a 'hidden' property which would > cause the image to be hidden from any image list calls (except for the > image owner or glance admin). This has been requested before, but > hasn't been enthusiastically endorsed because it leaves out several > use cases. But combined with Searchlight (with an updated glance > plugin to understand the 'hidden' field), it might be the best > solution. > > > Should Glance be replaced? > -- > https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-glance-removal > > The short answer is No. Glance is the best way for deployments to > provide the Images API v2. The project team has recently regained the > team:diverse-affiliation tag and is in a healthier state that it was > immediately after the downsizing craze of 2017 that happened early in > the Pike cycle. The Glance project team is committed to the long term > stability of Glance. > > > glance_store > > https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-glance_store > > We had a combined session with the Glare team, who also consume the > glance_store library, and worked out a list of items to improve the > library. > > > > Multiple same store type support > > https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-multi-store > > This has been requested by operators, and the interoperable image > import introduced in v2.6 of the Images API can be used to allow end > users to request what store to use. The Glance design will be > consistent (to the largest extent possible) with Cinder (at least as > far as configuration goes, to make it easy on operators). > > > > Queens Prioritization and Roadmapping > - > https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-roadmap > > See the etherpad for what we think we can get done. I'll put up a > patch for the Queens priorities to the glance-specs repo before the > Glance meeting on Sept 21, and we can have a final discussion of any > outstanding issues. > > > > If you missed the Wednesday summary, here it is: > http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017- > September/122156.html > > The scheduling etherpad has links to all the session etherpads: > https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev >
[openstack-dev] [glance] Queens PTG: Thursday summary
For those who couldn't attend, here's a quick synopsis of what was discussed yesterday. Please consult the etherpad for each session for details. Feel free to put questions/comments on the etherpads, and then put an item on the agenda for the weekly meeting on Thursday 21 September, and we'll continue the discussion. Complexity removal -- https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-complexity-removal In terms of a complexity contribution barrier, everyone agreed that the domain model is the largest factor. We also agreed that simplifying it is not something that could happen in the Queens cycle. It's probably a two-cycle effort, one cycle to ensure sufficient test coverage, and one cycle to refactor. Given the strategic planning session yesterday, we probably wouldn't want to tackle this until after the registry is completely removed, which is projected to happen in S. Image lifecycle support --- https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-lifecycle We sketched out several approaches, but trying to figure out a solution that would work across different types of deployments and various use cases gets complicated fast. It would be better for deployers to use Searchlight to configure complex queries that could use all appropriate image metadata specified by the deployer. For interoperability, deployers could use the common image properties with suggested values on their public images. We looked at two particular approaches that might help operators. The first would be introducing a kind of 'local_version' field that would be auto-incremented by Glance, the idea being that an image-list query that asked for the max value would yield the most recent version of that image. One problem, however, is what other metadata would be used in the query, as there might be several versions of images with the same os_distro and os_version properties (for example, the base CentOS 7 image and the LAMP CentOS 7 image). The second approach is introducing a 'hidden' property which would cause the image to be hidden from any image list calls (except for the image owner or glance admin). This has been requested before, but hasn't been enthusiastically endorsed because it leaves out several use cases. But combined with Searchlight (with an updated glance plugin to understand the 'hidden' field), it might be the best solution. Should Glance be replaced? -- https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-glance-removal The short answer is No. Glance is the best way for deployments to provide the Images API v2. The project team has recently regained the team:diverse-affiliation tag and is in a healthier state that it was immediately after the downsizing craze of 2017 that happened early in the Pike cycle. The Glance project team is committed to the long term stability of Glance. glance_store https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-glance_store We had a combined session with the Glare team, who also consume the glance_store library, and worked out a list of items to improve the library. Multiple same store type support https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-multi-store This has been requested by operators, and the interoperable image import introduced in v2.6 of the Images API can be used to allow end users to request what store to use. The Glance design will be consistent (to the largest extent possible) with Cinder (at least as far as configuration goes, to make it easy on operators). Queens Prioritization and Roadmapping - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg-roadmap See the etherpad for what we think we can get done. I'll put up a patch for the Queens priorities to the glance-specs repo before the Glance meeting on Sept 21, and we can have a final discussion of any outstanding issues. If you missed the Wednesday summary, here it is: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-September/122156.html The scheduling etherpad has links to all the session etherpads: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-queens-ptg __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev