[openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Hello, New deliverable to Kolla was proposed, and we found ourselves in a bit of an impasse regarding process of accepting new deliverables. Kolla community grew a lot since we were singular project, and now we have 3 deliverables already (kolla, kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes). 4th one was proposed, kolla-salt, all of them having separate core teams today. How to we proceed with this and following deliverables? How to we accept them to kolla namespace? I can think of several ways. 1) Open door policy - whoever wants to create new deliverable, is just free to do so. 2) Lightweight agreement - just 2*+2 from Kolla core team to some list of deliveralbes that will sit in kolla repo, potentially 2*+2 + PTL vote it would be good for PTL to know what he/she is PTL of;) 3) Majority vote from Kolla core team - much like we do with policy changes today 4) Majority vote from all Kolla deliverables core teams My personal favorite is option 2+PTL vote. We want to encourage experiments and new contributors to use our namespace, for both larger community and ease of navigation for users. One caveat to this would be to note that pre-1.0 projects are considered dev/experimental. Thoughts? Cheers, Michal __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
As the person purposing kolla-salt, I would like to weigh in. I like the idea of option 2, I certainly feel the PTL should always be involved in these things. I would also agree with the pre-1.0 as dev/experimental so as to not be tightly bound by rules for more stable and long term projects (like backward compatibility) until after 1.0 is tagged. This would give the flexibility for the project to reinvent itself as it grows. What I do notice is lack of wording describing who would be committing to work on the new deliverable, and I think that is important. It could be a team of people wanting to work on it, or one person putting forth work for a new deployment tool to use Kolla container and others joining in as they see the potential of the project themselves. I would prefer to keep it that way. Thanks, SamYaple Sam Yaple On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 11:38 PM, Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > Hello, > > New deliverable to Kolla was proposed, and we found ourselves in a bit > of an impasse regarding process of accepting new deliverables. Kolla > community grew a lot since we were singular project, and now we have 3 > deliverables already (kolla, kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes). 4th > one was proposed, kolla-salt, all of them having separate core teams > today. How to we proceed with this and following deliverables? How to > we accept them to kolla namespace? I can think of several ways. > > 1) Open door policy - whoever wants to create new deliverable, is just > free to do so. > 2) Lightweight agreement - just 2*+2 from Kolla core team to some list > of deliveralbes that will sit in kolla repo, potentially 2*+2 + PTL > vote it would be good for PTL to know what he/she is PTL of;) > 3) Majority vote from Kolla core team - much like we do with policy > changes today > 4) Majority vote from all Kolla deliverables core teams > > My personal favorite is option 2+PTL vote. We want to encourage > experiments and new contributors to use our namespace, for both larger > community and ease of navigation for users. > > One caveat to this would be to note that pre-1.0 projects are > considered dev/experimental. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Michal > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Michal, Another option is 2 individuals from each core review team + PTL. That is lighter weight then 3 and 4, yet more constrained then 1 and 2 and would be my preferred choice (or alternatively 3 or 4). Adding a deliverable is serious business ☺ FWIW I don’t’ think we are at an impasse, it just requires a policy vote as we do today. Regards -steve -Original Message- From: Michał Jastrzębski Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Date: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:38 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Subject: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables Hello, New deliverable to Kolla was proposed, and we found ourselves in a bit of an impasse regarding process of accepting new deliverables. Kolla community grew a lot since we were singular project, and now we have 3 deliverables already (kolla, kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes). 4th one was proposed, kolla-salt, all of them having separate core teams today. How to we proceed with this and following deliverables? How to we accept them to kolla namespace? I can think of several ways. 1) Open door policy - whoever wants to create new deliverable, is just free to do so. 2) Lightweight agreement - just 2*+2 from Kolla core team to some list of deliveralbes that will sit in kolla repo, potentially 2*+2 + PTL vote it would be good for PTL to know what he/she is PTL of;) 3) Majority vote from Kolla core team - much like we do with policy changes today 4) Majority vote from all Kolla deliverables core teams My personal favorite is option 2+PTL vote. We want to encourage experiments and new contributors to use our namespace, for both larger community and ease of navigation for users. One caveat to this would be to note that pre-1.0 projects are considered dev/experimental. Thoughts? Cheers, Michal __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Involving kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes in a decision about kolla-salt (or kolla-puppet, or kolla-chef) is silly since the projects are unrelated. That would be like involving glance when cinder has a new service because they both use keystone. The kolla-core team is reasonable since those are the images being consumed. Thanks, SamYaple Sam Yaple On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 12:31 AM, Steven Dake (stdake) wrote: > Michal, > > Another option is 2 individuals from each core review team + PTL. That is > lighter weight then 3 and 4, yet more constrained then 1 and 2 and would be > my preferred choice (or alternatively 3 or 4). Adding a deliverable is > serious business ☺ > > FWIW I don’t’ think we are at an impasse, it just requires a policy vote > as we do today. > > Regards > -steve > > -Original Message- > From: Michał Jastrzębski > Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > Date: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:38 PM > To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > Subject: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > Hello, > > New deliverable to Kolla was proposed, and we found ourselves in a bit > of an impasse regarding process of accepting new deliverables. Kolla > community grew a lot since we were singular project, and now we have 3 > deliverables already (kolla, kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes). 4th > one was proposed, kolla-salt, all of them having separate core teams > today. How to we proceed with this and following deliverables? How to > we accept them to kolla namespace? I can think of several ways. > > 1) Open door policy - whoever wants to create new deliverable, is just > free to do so. > 2) Lightweight agreement - just 2*+2 from Kolla core team to some list > of deliveralbes that will sit in kolla repo, potentially 2*+2 + PTL > vote it would be good for PTL to know what he/she is PTL of;) > 3) Majority vote from Kolla core team - much like we do with policy > changes today > 4) Majority vote from all Kolla deliverables core teams > > My personal favorite is option 2+PTL vote. We want to encourage > experiments and new contributors to use our namespace, for both larger > community and ease of navigation for users. > > One caveat to this would be to note that pre-1.0 projects are > considered dev/experimental. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Michal > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject: > unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Excerpts from Sam Yaple's message of 2017-01-05 15:58:45 +: > Involving kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes in a decision about kolla-salt > (or kolla-puppet, or kolla-chef) is silly since the projects are unrelated. > That would be like involving glance when cinder has a new service because > they both use keystone. The kolla-core team is reasonable since those are > the images being consumed. If those teams are so disconnected as to not have an interest in the work the other is doing, why are they part of the same umbrella project team? Doug > > Thanks, > SamYaple > > > > Sam Yaple > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 12:31 AM, Steven Dake (stdake) > wrote: > > > Michal, > > > > Another option is 2 individuals from each core review team + PTL. That is > > lighter weight then 3 and 4, yet more constrained then 1 and 2 and would be > > my preferred choice (or alternatively 3 or 4). Adding a deliverable is > > serious business ☺ > > > > FWIW I don’t’ think we are at an impasse, it just requires a policy vote > > as we do today. > > > > Regards > > -steve > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Michał Jastrzębski > > Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > > Date: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:38 PM > > To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > > Subject: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > > > Hello, > > > > New deliverable to Kolla was proposed, and we found ourselves in a bit > > of an impasse regarding process of accepting new deliverables. Kolla > > community grew a lot since we were singular project, and now we have 3 > > deliverables already (kolla, kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes). 4th > > one was proposed, kolla-salt, all of them having separate core teams > > today. How to we proceed with this and following deliverables? How to > > we accept them to kolla namespace? I can think of several ways. > > > > 1) Open door policy - whoever wants to create new deliverable, is just > > free to do so. > > 2) Lightweight agreement - just 2*+2 from Kolla core team to some list > > of deliveralbes that will sit in kolla repo, potentially 2*+2 + PTL > > vote it would be good for PTL to know what he/she is PTL of;) > > 3) Majority vote from Kolla core team - much like we do with policy > > changes today > > 4) Majority vote from all Kolla deliverables core teams > > > > My personal favorite is option 2+PTL vote. We want to encourage > > experiments and new contributors to use our namespace, for both larger > > community and ease of navigation for users. > > > > One caveat to this would be to note that pre-1.0 projects are > > considered dev/experimental. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Cheers, > > Michal > > > > > > __ > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject: > > unsubscribe > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > > > > __ > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On 2017-01-05 15:58:45 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: > Involving kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes in a decision about kolla-salt > (or kolla-puppet, or kolla-chef) is silly since the projects are unrelated. > That would be like involving glance when cinder has a new service because > they both use keystone. The kolla-core team is reasonable since those are > the images being consumed. In contrast, the Infra team also has a vast number of fairly unrelated deliverables with their own dedicated core review teams. In our case, we refer to them as our "Infra Council" and ask them to weigh in with Roll-Call votes on proposals to the infra-specs repo. In short, just because people work primarily on one particular service doesn't mean they're incapable of providing useful feedback on and help prioritize proposals to add other (possibly unrelated) services. -- Jeremy Stanley signature.asc Description: Digital signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Sam Yaple's message of 2017-01-05 15:58:45 +: > > Involving kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes in a decision about > kolla-salt > > (or kolla-puppet, or kolla-chef) is silly since the projects are > unrelated. > > That would be like involving glance when cinder has a new service because > > they both use keystone. The kolla-core team is reasonable since those are > > the images being consumed. > > If those teams are so disconnected as to not have an interest in the > work the other is doing, why are they part of the same umbrella project > team? > > The disconnection is rather new, though it has been a long time coming. In Newton, all of the kolla-ansible code existed in the kolla repo. It has since been split to kolla-ansible to separate interests and allow for new projects like kolla-kubernetes (and even kolla-salt) to have the same advantages as kolla-ansible. Be a first-class citizen. Frankly, the kolla namespace is _not_ needed for these projects anymore. Kolla-salt does not need to be called kolla-salt at all. It could be called some other name without much ado. However, the primary goal of the split was to encourage projects like this to pop up under the kolla namespace, and keep different deployment tools from interfering with each other. As someone who works with Ansible and Salt, I don't personally think I should be voting on the acceptance of a new deployment tool I have no interest in that won't affect anything I am working on. Of course, this is just my opinion. Thanks, SamYaple Doug > > > > > Thanks, > > SamYaple > > > > > > > > Sam Yaple > > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 12:31 AM, Steven Dake (stdake) > > wrote: > > > > > Michal, > > > > > > Another option is 2 individuals from each core review team + PTL. > That is > > > lighter weight then 3 and 4, yet more constrained then 1 and 2 and > would be > > > my preferred choice (or alternatively 3 or 4). Adding a deliverable is > > > serious business ☺ > > > > > > FWIW I don’t’ think we are at an impasse, it just requires a policy > vote > > > as we do today. > > > > > > Regards > > > -steve > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Michał Jastrzębski > > > Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage > questions)" < > > > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > > > Date: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:38 PM > > > To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > > > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > > > Subject: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > New deliverable to Kolla was proposed, and we found ourselves in a > bit > > > of an impasse regarding process of accepting new deliverables. > Kolla > > > community grew a lot since we were singular project, and now we > have 3 > > > deliverables already (kolla, kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes). > 4th > > > one was proposed, kolla-salt, all of them having separate core > teams > > > today. How to we proceed with this and following deliverables? How > to > > > we accept them to kolla namespace? I can think of several ways. > > > > > > 1) Open door policy - whoever wants to create new deliverable, is > just > > > free to do so. > > > 2) Lightweight agreement - just 2*+2 from Kolla core team to some > list > > > of deliveralbes that will sit in kolla repo, potentially 2*+2 + PTL > > > vote it would be good for PTL to know what he/she is PTL of;) > > > 3) Majority vote from Kolla core team - much like we do with policy > > > changes today > > > 4) Majority vote from all Kolla deliverables core teams > > > > > > My personal favorite is option 2+PTL vote. We want to encourage > > > experiments and new contributors to use our namespace, for both > larger > > > community and ease of navigation for users. > > > > > > One caveat to this would be to note that pre-1.0 projects are > > > considered dev/experimental. > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Michal > > > > > > > > > __ > > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) &g
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:34 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > On 2017-01-05 15:58:45 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: > > Involving kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes in a decision about > kolla-salt > > (or kolla-puppet, or kolla-chef) is silly since the projects are > unrelated. > > That would be like involving glance when cinder has a new service because > > they both use keystone. The kolla-core team is reasonable since those are > > the images being consumed. > > In contrast, the Infra team also has a vast number of fairly > unrelated deliverables with their own dedicated core review teams. > In our case, we refer to them as our "Infra Council" and ask them to > weigh in with Roll-Call votes on proposals to the infra-specs repo. > In short, just because people work primarily on one particular > service doesn't mean they're incapable of providing useful feedback > on and help prioritize proposals to add other (possibly unrelated) > services. > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it is not unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing the same job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). Thanks, SamYaple > -- > Jeremy Stanley > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: [...] > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it is not > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing the same > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely extending the breadth of the project as a whole. -- Jeremy Stanley __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Sam Yaple wrote: > Involving kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes in a decision about > kolla-salt (or kolla-puppet, or kolla-chef) is silly since the projects are > unrelated. That would be like involving glance when cinder has a new > service because they both use keystone. The kolla-core team is reasonable > since those are the images being consumed. > > Technically, I think if there was going to be a puppet module for kolla, it should fall under the Puppet OpenStack namespace (as puppet-kolla). So in this case kolla-salt is only falling under the kolla namespace because there's no longer a salt group in OpenStack right? I don't have any skin in the kolla game, but I would encourage a puppet-kolla if someone wanted to contribute :) Just to add my thoughts on the original question posed by this thread as an outside observer, I would echo what Michal said since the PTL should at the very least have a say. Thanks, -Alex > Thanks, > SamYaple > > > > Sam Yaple > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 12:31 AM, Steven Dake (stdake) > wrote: > >> Michal, >> >> Another option is 2 individuals from each core review team + PTL. That >> is lighter weight then 3 and 4, yet more constrained then 1 and 2 and would >> be my preferred choice (or alternatively 3 or 4). Adding a deliverable is >> serious business ☺ >> >> FWIW I don’t’ think we are at an impasse, it just requires a policy vote >> as we do today. >> >> Regards >> -steve >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Michał Jastrzębski >> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < >> openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> >> Date: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:38 PM >> To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < >> openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> >> Subject: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables >> >> Hello, >> >> New deliverable to Kolla was proposed, and we found ourselves in a bit >> of an impasse regarding process of accepting new deliverables. Kolla >> community grew a lot since we were singular project, and now we have 3 >> deliverables already (kolla, kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes). 4th >> one was proposed, kolla-salt, all of them having separate core teams >> today. How to we proceed with this and following deliverables? How to >> we accept them to kolla namespace? I can think of several ways. >> >> 1) Open door policy - whoever wants to create new deliverable, is just >> free to do so. >> 2) Lightweight agreement - just 2*+2 from Kolla core team to some list >> of deliveralbes that will sit in kolla repo, potentially 2*+2 + PTL >> vote it would be good for PTL to know what he/she is PTL of;) >> 3) Majority vote from Kolla core team - much like we do with policy >> changes today >> 4) Majority vote from all Kolla deliverables core teams >> >> My personal favorite is option 2+PTL vote. We want to encourage >> experiments and new contributors to use our namespace, for both larger >> community and ease of navigation for users. >> >> One caveat to this would be to note that pre-1.0 projects are >> considered dev/experimental. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Cheers, >> Michal >> >> >> __ >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.op >> enstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev >> >> >> >> __ >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscrib >> e >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev >> > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: > [...] > > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it is > not > > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing > > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing the > same > > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). > > True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping > Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and > automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely > extending the breadth of the project as a whole. > Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly rivalry'? I expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can then be reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out everyone. Thanks, SamYaple > -- > Jeremy Stanley > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Ad kolla-ansible core team +2ing new deliverable,I agree with Sam, there is no reason in my mind for kolla-ansible/k8s core team to vote on accepting new deliverable. I think this should be lightweight and easy, we should allow experimentation (after all, kolla itself went through few fail iterations before ansible). Ad disconnect, I think we all are interested in other orch tools more or less, but it's more about "who should allow new one to be added", and that requires more than interest as might potentially block adding new deliverable. Avoiding this disconnect is exactly why I'd like to keep all deliverable team under one Kolla umbrealla, keep everyone in same community so they can make use of each others experience (that would also mean, that kolla-puppet is what I'd like to see rather than puppet-kolla:)). Ad multi-deployment-tool friendly rivalry, it is meant to extend breadth of the project indeed, but let's face it, religious wars are real (and vim is better than emacs.);) I don't thing problem would be ill intent tho, I could easily predict problem being rather in "I don't have time to look at this review queue" sort. Stalling reviews can kill lots of potentially great changes. On 5 January 2017 at 09:02, Sam Yaple wrote: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: >> >> On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: >> [...] >> > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it is >> > not >> > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing >> > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing the >> > same >> > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). >> >> True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping >> Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and >> automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely >> extending the breadth of the project as a whole. > > > Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly rivalry'? I > expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can then be > reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out everyone. > > Thanks, > SamYaple >> >> -- >> Jeremy Stanley >> >> __ >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:25 AM, Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > Ad kolla-ansible core team +2ing new deliverable,I agree with Sam, > there is no reason in my mind for kolla-ansible/k8s core team to vote > on accepting new deliverable. I think this should be lightweight and > easy, we should allow experimentation (after all, kolla itself went > through few fail iterations before ansible). > > Ad disconnect, I think we all are interested in other orch tools more > or less, but it's more about "who should allow new one to be added", > and that requires more than interest as might potentially block adding > new deliverable. Avoiding this disconnect is exactly why I'd like to > keep all deliverable team under one Kolla umbrealla, keep everyone in > same community so they can make use of each others experience (that > would also mean, that kolla-puppet is what I'd like to see rather than > puppet-kolla:)). > I mean it depends on what a proposed 'kolla-puppet' does. If it's like puppet-tripleo, which falls under the TripleO umbrella and not Puppet OpenStack because it configures more than just a single 'openstack' related service then that would make sense. Since puppet-tripleo a way of deploying all things OpenStack it lives in the TripleO world. But I don't necessarily agree that kolla-puppet should exist over puppet-kolla if it just configures 'kolla'. I would like to see more cross group collaboration with the deployment tool groups and not keeping things to themselves. As for the intricacies of the specific deployment tooling, because we already have patterns and plenty of tooling for deploying OpenStack related services in our other 40 or so modules I think the Puppet OpenStack community might be better suited to provide review feedback than say the Kolla group when it comes to puppet specific questions and best practices. And speaking as the Puppet PTL there would not be anything stopping us from having Kolla cores also be cores on puppet-kolla. I think its important to focus on the sense of OpenStack community building (not just Kolla community) and spreading knowledge I think it would be better not to try and keep everything to yourself if there's already a group of people in the community who specialize in a specific thing. As an aside, I'd honestly like to see more contribution by the upstream projects into the puppet-* world because I think it's important for people to understand how the software they right actually gets consumed. Thanks, -Alex > Ad multi-deployment-tool friendly rivalry, it is meant to extend > breadth of the project indeed, but let's face it, religious wars are > real (and vim is better than emacs.);) I don't thing problem would be > ill intent tho, I could easily predict problem being rather in "I > don't have time to look at this review queue" sort. Stalling reviews > can kill lots of potentially great changes. > > > On 5 January 2017 at 09:02, Sam Yaple wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: >>> >>> On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: >>> [...] >>> > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it is >>> > not >>> > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing >>> > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing the >>> > same >>> > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). >>> >>> True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping >>> Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and >>> automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely >>> extending the breadth of the project as a whole. >> >> >> Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly rivalry'? I >> expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can then be >> reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out everyone. >> >> Thanks, >> SamYaple >>> >>> -- >>> Jeremy Stanley >>> >>> __ >>> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >>> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev >> >> >> >> __ >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev >> > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-req
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Oh you misunderstood good sir;) kolla-puppet is similar to tripleo - it's would set up whole OpenStack using kolla containers deployed by puppet manifests. I agree, if it would only install kolla - that should go to openstack puppet, but kolla is a deployment tool. On 5 January 2017 at 09:56, Alex Schultz wrote: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:25 AM, Michał Jastrzębski wrote: >> Ad kolla-ansible core team +2ing new deliverable,I agree with Sam, >> there is no reason in my mind for kolla-ansible/k8s core team to vote >> on accepting new deliverable. I think this should be lightweight and >> easy, we should allow experimentation (after all, kolla itself went >> through few fail iterations before ansible). >> >> Ad disconnect, I think we all are interested in other orch tools more >> or less, but it's more about "who should allow new one to be added", >> and that requires more than interest as might potentially block adding >> new deliverable. Avoiding this disconnect is exactly why I'd like to >> keep all deliverable team under one Kolla umbrealla, keep everyone in >> same community so they can make use of each others experience (that >> would also mean, that kolla-puppet is what I'd like to see rather than >> puppet-kolla:)). >> > > I mean it depends on what a proposed 'kolla-puppet' does. If it's > like puppet-tripleo, which falls under the TripleO umbrella and not > Puppet OpenStack because it configures more than just a single > 'openstack' related service then that would make sense. Since > puppet-tripleo a way of deploying all things OpenStack it lives in the > TripleO world. But I don't necessarily agree that kolla-puppet should > exist over puppet-kolla if it just configures 'kolla'. I would like > to see more cross group collaboration with the deployment tool groups > and not keeping things to themselves. As for the intricacies of the > specific deployment tooling, because we already have patterns and > plenty of tooling for deploying OpenStack related services in our > other 40 or so modules I think the Puppet OpenStack community might be > better suited to provide review feedback than say the Kolla group when > it comes to puppet specific questions and best practices. And > speaking as the Puppet PTL there would not be anything stopping us > from having Kolla cores also be cores on puppet-kolla. > > I think its important to focus on the sense of OpenStack community > building (not just Kolla community) and spreading knowledge I think it > would be better not to try and keep everything to yourself if there's > already a group of people in the community who specialize in a > specific thing. As an aside, I'd honestly like to see more > contribution by the upstream projects into the puppet-* world because > I think it's important for people to understand how the software they > right actually gets consumed. > > Thanks, > -Alex > >> Ad multi-deployment-tool friendly rivalry, it is meant to extend >> breadth of the project indeed, but let's face it, religious wars are >> real (and vim is better than emacs.);) I don't thing problem would be >> ill intent tho, I could easily predict problem being rather in "I >> don't have time to look at this review queue" sort. Stalling reviews >> can kill lots of potentially great changes. >> >> >> On 5 January 2017 at 09:02, Sam Yaple wrote: >>> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: [...] > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it is > not > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing the > same > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely extending the breadth of the project as a whole. >>> >>> >>> Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly rivalry'? I >>> expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can then be >>> reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out everyone. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> SamYaple -- Jeremy Stanley __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev >>> >>> >>> >>> __ >>> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >>> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev >>> >> >> ___
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 5:56 PM, Alex Schultz wrote: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:25 AM, Michał Jastrzębski > wrote: > > Ad kolla-ansible core team +2ing new deliverable,I agree with Sam, > > there is no reason in my mind for kolla-ansible/k8s core team to vote > > on accepting new deliverable. I think this should be lightweight and > > easy, we should allow experimentation (after all, kolla itself went > > through few fail iterations before ansible). > > > > Ad disconnect, I think we all are interested in other orch tools more > > or less, but it's more about "who should allow new one to be added", > > and that requires more than interest as might potentially block adding > > new deliverable. Avoiding this disconnect is exactly why I'd like to > > keep all deliverable team under one Kolla umbrealla, keep everyone in > > same community so they can make use of each others experience (that > > would also mean, that kolla-puppet is what I'd like to see rather than > > puppet-kolla:)). > > > > I mean it depends on what a proposed 'kolla-puppet' does. If it's > like puppet-tripleo, which falls under the TripleO umbrella and not > Puppet OpenStack because it configures more than just a single > 'openstack' related service then that would make sense. Since > puppet-tripleo a way of deploying all things OpenStack it lives in the > TripleO world. But I don't necessarily agree that kolla-puppet should > exist over puppet-kolla if it just configures 'kolla'. I would like > to see more cross group collaboration with the deployment tool groups > and not keeping things to themselves. As for the intricacies of the > specific deployment tooling, because we already have patterns and > plenty of tooling for deploying OpenStack related services in our > other 40 or so modules I think the Puppet OpenStack community might be > better suited to provide review feedback than say the Kolla group when > it comes to puppet specific questions and best practices. And > speaking as the Puppet PTL there would not be anything stopping us > from having Kolla cores also be cores on puppet-kolla. > These are good points. I don't know which way I lean on this subject at the moment. But I would mention that kolla-ansible doesn't exist under openstack-ansible-kolla. And kolla-salt (should that become a thing) isn't openstack-salt-kolla. Just because there is an openstack project that uses a orchestration tool doesn't mean only one such project can exist. Nor that all approaches would be the same, even if the end goal is the same (deploy openstack). So I am going to remain neutral on this point and say what you are saying is reasonable, though on the other hand it may not be compatible in some situations. Thanks, SamYaple I think its important to focus on the sense of OpenStack community > building (not just Kolla community) and spreading knowledge I think it > would be better not to try and keep everything to yourself if there's > already a group of people in the community who specialize in a > specific thing. As an aside, I'd honestly like to see more > contribution by the upstream projects into the puppet-* world because > I think it's important for people to understand how the software they > right actually gets consumed. > > Thanks, > -Alex > > > Ad multi-deployment-tool friendly rivalry, it is meant to extend > > breadth of the project indeed, but let's face it, religious wars are > > real (and vim is better than emacs.);) I don't thing problem would be > > ill intent tho, I could easily predict problem being rather in "I > > don't have time to look at this review queue" sort. Stalling reviews > > can kill lots of potentially great changes. > > > > > > On 5 January 2017 at 09:02, Sam Yaple wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley > wrote: > >>> > >>> On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: > >>> [...] > >>> > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it > is > >>> > not > >>> > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing > >>> > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing > the > >>> > same > >>> > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). > >>> > >>> True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping > >>> Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and > >>> automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely > >>> extending the breadth of the project as a whole. > >> > >> > >> Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly rivalry'? > I > >> expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can > then be > >> reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out everyone. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> SamYaple > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Jeremy Stanley > >>> > >>> > __ > >>> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > >>> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-req
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Excerpts from Sam Yaple's message of 2017-01-05 17:02:35 +: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > > > On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: > > [...] > > > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it is > > not > > > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing > > > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing the > > same > > > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). > > > > True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping > > Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and > > automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely > > extending the breadth of the project as a whole. > > > > Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly rivalry'? I > expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can then > be reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out everyone. I'm still curious to understand why, if the teams building those different things have little or no overlap in membership, they need to be part of "kolla" and not just part of the larger OpenStack? Why build a separate project hierarchy instead of keeping things flat? Do I misunderstand the situation? Doug > > Thanks, > SamYaple > > > -- > > Jeremy Stanley > > > > __ > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Sam Yaple's message of 2017-01-05 17:02:35 +: > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley > wrote: > > > > > On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: > > > [...] > > > > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it > is > > > not > > > > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing > > > > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing > the > > > same > > > > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). > > > > > > True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping > > > Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and > > > automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely > > > extending the breadth of the project as a whole. > > > > > > > Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly rivalry'? I > > expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can then > > be reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out everyone. > > I'm still curious to understand why, if the teams building those > different things have little or no overlap in membership, they need to > be part of "kolla" and not just part of the larger OpenStack? Why build > a separate project hierarchy instead of keeping things flat? > > Do I misunderstand the situation? > > You absolutely do not misunderstand the situation. It is a very valid question, one to which I do not have a satisfying answer. I can say that it has been the intention since I started work on the ansible bits of kolla to have separate repos for the deployment parts. That grew to having several different deployment tools in the future and I don't think anyone really stopped to think that building this hierarchy isn't necessarily the right thing to do. It certainly isn't a required thing to do. With the separation of ansible from the main kolla repo, the kolla repo now becomes a consumable much like the relationship keystone and glance. The only advantage I can really think of at the moment is to reuse the Kolla name and community when starting a new project, but that may not be as advantageous as I initially thought. By my own admission, why do these other projects care about a different orchestration tool. So in your estimation Doug, do you feel kolla-salt would be better served as a new project in it's own right? As well as future orchestration tools using Kolla container images? Thanks, SamYaple > Doug > > > > > Thanks, > > SamYaple > > > > > -- > > > Jeremy Stanley > > > > > > > __ > > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject: > unsubscribe > > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Excerpts from Sam Yaple's message of 2017-01-05 18:22:54 +: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > > > Excerpts from Sam Yaple's message of 2017-01-05 17:02:35 +: > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley > > wrote: > > > > > > > On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it > > is > > > > not > > > > > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing > > > > > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing > > the > > > > same > > > > > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). > > > > > > > > True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping > > > > Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and > > > > automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely > > > > extending the breadth of the project as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly rivalry'? I > > > expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can then > > > be reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out everyone. > > > > I'm still curious to understand why, if the teams building those > > different things have little or no overlap in membership, they need to > > be part of "kolla" and not just part of the larger OpenStack? Why build > > a separate project hierarchy instead of keeping things flat? > > > > Do I misunderstand the situation? > > > > You absolutely do not misunderstand the situation. It is a very valid > question, one to which I do not have a satisfying answer. I can say that it > has been the intention since I started work on the ansible bits of kolla to > have separate repos for the deployment parts. That grew to having several > different deployment tools in the future and I don't think anyone really > stopped to think that building this hierarchy isn't necessarily the right > thing to do. It certainly isn't a required thing to do. > > With the separation of ansible from the main kolla repo, the kolla repo now > becomes a consumable much like the relationship keystone and glance. > > The only advantage I can really think of at the moment is to reuse the > Kolla name and community when starting a new project, but that may not be > as advantageous as I initially thought. By my own admission, why do these > other projects care about a different orchestration tool. > > So in your estimation Doug, do you feel kolla-salt would be better served > as a new project in it's own right? As well as future orchestration tools > using Kolla container images? I don't know enough about the situation to say for sure, and I'll leave it up to the people involved, but I thought I should raise the option as a way to ease up some of the friction. Our team structure is really supposed to be organized around groups of people rather than groups of things. The fact that there's some negotiation going on to decide who needs to (or gets to) have a say in when new deliverables are added, with some people saying they don't want to have to vote or that others shouldn't have a vote, just makes it seem to me that we're trying to force a fit where it would be simpler to establish separate teams. There may be some common space for shared tools, and it sounds like that's how things started out. But not maybe it's time to rethink that? Doug > > Thanks, > SamYaple > > > Doug > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > SamYaple > > > > > > > -- > > > > Jeremy Stanley > > > > > > > > > > __ > > > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject: > > unsubscribe > > > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > > > > > > __ > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
I think total separation of projects would require much larger discussion in community. Currently we agreed on having kolla-ansible and kolla-k8s to be deliverables under kolla umbrella from historical reasons. Also I don't agree that there is "little or no overlap" in teams, in fact there is ton of overlap, just not 100%. Many contributors (myself included) jump between deliverables today. Having single Kolla umbrella has practical benefits which I would hate to lose quite frankly. One of which would be that Kolla is being evaluated by lot of different companies, and having full separation between projects would make navigation of a landscape harder. Another reason is single community which we value - there is no full separation even between kolla-ansible and kolla-k8s (ansible still generates config files for k8s for example), and further separation of projects would hurt cooperation, and I don't think we've hit situation when it's necessary. I'm not ready to have this discussion yet, and I'm personally quite opposed to this. If kolla-salt would like to be first completely separate project, there is nothing we can (or want) to do to stop it, but I wouldn't like to see this being pushed. Having special beast isn't great, and moving kolla-ansible and kolla-k8s out of kolla umbrella is revolution I don't want to rush. I'd rather figure out process to accept kolla-salt (and following projects) to kolla umbrella and have this discussion later, when we actually hit community scale issues. Cheers, Michal On 5 January 2017 at 10:22, Sam Yaple wrote: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: >> >> Excerpts from Sam Yaple's message of 2017-01-05 17:02:35 +: >> > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley >> > wrote: >> > >> > > On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: >> > > [...] >> > > > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since it >> > > > is >> > > not >> > > > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, competing >> > > > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing >> > > > the >> > > same >> > > > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). >> > > >> > > True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping >> > > Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and >> > > automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely >> > > extending the breadth of the project as a whole. >> > > >> > >> > Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly rivalry'? >> > I >> > expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can >> > then >> > be reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out everyone. >> >> I'm still curious to understand why, if the teams building those >> different things have little or no overlap in membership, they need to >> be part of "kolla" and not just part of the larger OpenStack? Why build >> a separate project hierarchy instead of keeping things flat? >> >> Do I misunderstand the situation? >> > You absolutely do not misunderstand the situation. It is a very valid > question, one to which I do not have a satisfying answer. I can say that it > has been the intention since I started work on the ansible bits of kolla to > have separate repos for the deployment parts. That grew to having several > different deployment tools in the future and I don't think anyone really > stopped to think that building this hierarchy isn't necessarily the right > thing to do. It certainly isn't a required thing to do. > > With the separation of ansible from the main kolla repo, the kolla repo now > becomes a consumable much like the relationship keystone and glance. > > The only advantage I can really think of at the moment is to reuse the Kolla > name and community when starting a new project, but that may not be as > advantageous as I initially thought. By my own admission, why do these other > projects care about a different orchestration tool. > > So in your estimation Doug, do you feel kolla-salt would be better served as > a new project in it's own right? As well as future orchestration tools using > Kolla container images? > > Thanks, > SamYaple >> >> Doug >> >> > >> > Thanks, >> > SamYaple >> > >> > > -- >> > > Jeremy Stanley >> > > >> > > >> > > __ >> > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> > > Unsubscribe: >> > > openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >> > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev >> > > >> >> __ >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > > __
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > I think total separation of projects would require much larger > discussion in community. Currently we agreed on having kolla-ansible > and kolla-k8s to be deliverables under kolla umbrella from historical > reasons. Also I don't agree that there is "little or no overlap" in > teams, in fact there is ton of overlap, just not 100%. Many > contributors (myself included) jump between deliverables today. > > Having single Kolla umbrella has practical benefits which I would hate > to lose quite frankly. One of which would be that Kolla is being > evaluated by lot of different companies, and having full separation > between projects would make navigation of a landscape harder. Another > reason is single community which we value - there is no full > separation even between kolla-ansible and kolla-k8s (ansible still > generates config files for k8s for example), and further separation of > projects would hurt cooperation, and I don't think we've hit situation > when it's necessary. I'm not ready to have this discussion yet, and > I'm personally quite opposed to this. > > If kolla-salt would like to be first completely separate project, > there is nothing we can (or want) to do to stop it, but I wouldn't > like to see this being pushed. Having special beast isn't great, and > moving kolla-ansible and kolla-k8s out of kolla umbrella is revolution > I don't want to rush. I'd rather figure out process to accept > kolla-salt (and following projects) to kolla umbrella and have this > discussion later, when we actually hit community scale issues. > I don't think moving kolla-ansible or kolla-k8s out of the kolla namespace was being suggested. If I implied that, it was not intended. That said, with Doug's comments, I am not sure it makes sense to continue building a Kolla deployment hierarchy. I would ask what the benefit of having kolla-salt or kolla-puppet would be? It is just a point that hasn't been discussed or considered up until now. We had all just assumed kolla-salt and kolla-puppet and kolla-chef would be a thing, but would there be a benefit to sitting under the kolla namespace? I am not sure what those benefits are. Thanks, SamYaple > Cheers, > Michal > > > On 5 January 2017 at 10:22, Sam Yaple wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Doug Hellmann > wrote: > >> > >> Excerpts from Sam Yaple's message of 2017-01-05 17:02:35 +: > >> > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: > >> > > [...] > >> > > > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since > it > >> > > > is > >> > > not > >> > > > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, > competing > >> > > > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service doing > >> > > > the > >> > > same > >> > > > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). > >> > > > >> > > True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping > >> > > Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and > >> > > automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely > >> > > extending the breadth of the project as a whole. > >> > > > >> > > >> > Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly > rivalry'? > >> > I > >> > expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can > >> > then > >> > be reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out > everyone. > >> > >> I'm still curious to understand why, if the teams building those > >> different things have little or no overlap in membership, they need to > >> be part of "kolla" and not just part of the larger OpenStack? Why build > >> a separate project hierarchy instead of keeping things flat? > >> > >> Do I misunderstand the situation? > >> > > You absolutely do not misunderstand the situation. It is a very valid > > question, one to which I do not have a satisfying answer. I can say that > it > > has been the intention since I started work on the ansible bits of kolla > to > > have separate repos for the deployment parts. That grew to having several > > different deployment tools in the future and I don't think anyone really > > stopped to think that building this hierarchy isn't necessarily the right > > thing to do. It certainly isn't a required thing to do. > > > > With the separation of ansible from the main kolla repo, the kolla repo > now > > becomes a consumable much like the relationship keystone and glance. > > > > The only advantage I can really think of at the moment is to reuse the > Kolla > > name and community when starting a new project, but that may not be as > > advantageous as I initially thought. By my own admission, why do these > other > > projects care about a different orchestration tool. > > > > So in your estimation Doug, do you feel kolla-salt would be better > served as > > a new project in it's own right? As well as future or
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Sam Yaple's message of 2017-01-05 18:22:54 +: > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Doug Hellmann > wrote: > > > > > Excerpts from Sam Yaple's message of 2017-01-05 17:02:35 +: > > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Stanley > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 2017-01-05 16:46:36 + (+), Sam Yaple wrote: > > > > > [...] > > > > > > I do feel this is slightly different than whats described. Since > it > > > is > > > > > not > > > > > > unrelated services, but rather, for lack of a better word, > competing > > > > > > services. To my knowledge infra doesn't have several service > doing > > > the > > > > > same > > > > > > job with different core teams (though I could be wrong). > > > > > > > > > > True, though I do find it an interesting point of view that helping > > > > > Kolla support multiple and diverse configuration management and > > > > > automation ecosystems is a "competition" rather than merely > > > > > extending the breadth of the project as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yea I computer good, but I am no wordsmith. Perhaps 'friendly > rivalry'? I > > > > expect these different deploy tools to bring new techniques that can > then > > > > be reapplied to kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes to help out > everyone. > > > > > > I'm still curious to understand why, if the teams building those > > > different things have little or no overlap in membership, they need to > > > be part of "kolla" and not just part of the larger OpenStack? Why build > > > a separate project hierarchy instead of keeping things flat? > > > > > > Do I misunderstand the situation? > > > > > > You absolutely do not misunderstand the situation. It is a very valid > > question, one to which I do not have a satisfying answer. I can say that > it > > has been the intention since I started work on the ansible bits of kolla > to > > have separate repos for the deployment parts. That grew to having several > > different deployment tools in the future and I don't think anyone really > > stopped to think that building this hierarchy isn't necessarily the right > > thing to do. It certainly isn't a required thing to do. > > > > With the separation of ansible from the main kolla repo, the kolla repo > now > > becomes a consumable much like the relationship keystone and glance. > > > > The only advantage I can really think of at the moment is to reuse the > > Kolla name and community when starting a new project, but that may not be > > as advantageous as I initially thought. By my own admission, why do these > > other projects care about a different orchestration tool. > > > > So in your estimation Doug, do you feel kolla-salt would be better served > > as a new project in it's own right? As well as future orchestration tools > > using Kolla container images? > > I don't know enough about the situation to say for sure, and I'll > leave it up to the people involved, but I thought I should raise > the option as a way to ease up some of the friction. > > Our team structure is really supposed to be organized around groups > of people rather than groups of things. The fact that there's some > negotiation going on to decide who needs to (or gets to) have a say > in when new deliverables are added, with some people saying they > don't want to have to vote or that others shouldn't have a vote, > just makes it seem to me that we're trying to force a fit where it > would be simpler to establish separate teams. > > There may be some common space for shared tools, and it sounds like > that's how things started out. But not maybe it's time to rethink > that? > > This is definitely the case. Shared tooling. In the case of kolla-k8s and kolla-ansible sharing the configs, this has broken kolla-k8s many times. Perhaps the right decision long term is identifying all the needed pieces that Kolla would be sharing and centralizing them rather than building this Kolla hierarchy of projects forcing Kolla more into what resembles a benevolent dictator model for all underlying deployment projects. Thanks, SamYaple > Doug > > > > > Thanks, > > SamYaple > > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > SamYaple > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Jeremy Stanley > > > > > > > > > > > > > __ > > > > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > > > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject: > > > unsubscribe > > > > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > > > > > > > > > > __ > > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject: > unsubscribe > > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > > > ___
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Excerpts from Michał Jastrzębski's message of 2017-01-05 11:45:49 -0800: > I think total separation of projects would require much larger > discussion in community. Currently we agreed on having kolla-ansible > and kolla-k8s to be deliverables under kolla umbrella from historical > reasons. Also I don't agree that there is "little or no overlap" in > teams, in fact there is ton of overlap, just not 100%. Many > contributors (myself included) jump between deliverables today. OK, that's good to know. It wasn't clear from some of the initial messages in this thread, which seemed to imply otherwise. Doug __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
There are some interesting points in this topic. I agree entirely with Sam Yaple. It does not make sense to me to have kolla-ansible and kolla-kubernetes cores involved with the introduction of a new deliverable under the kolla umbrella. A new deliverable (read: project, really) should not rely on a separate project to ratify its existence. I feel this is dangerous. I also feel looking at the different deployment methodologies scoped under the kolla project as competition or rivalry is folly. I'm honestly a bit concerned about how broad the scope of the project kolla has become. I think the conversation of separating the deployment projects from the kolla umbrella is a conversation worth having at some point. The repo split was a step in the right direction, but currently the deliverables (4, if kolla-salt becomes a thing) are sharing a single PTL, a single IRC channel, and a single IRC weekly meeting. This has the potential of introducing a significant amount of overhead for the overarching project as a whole. What happens if kolla-puppet becomes a thing? What if kolla-mesos was still about? I think we can all agree this gets out of hand quickly. Yes, people are religious about the tools they use, and deployment tools are no different. I think scoping them all under the same umbrella project is a mistake in the long term. The folks that want to focus on Ansible should be able to focus wholly on Ansible with like-minded folks, same for Salt, same for whatever. Having them remain together for the sake of sharing a name isn't sustainable in the long term -- let each do what they do well. As far as being able to talk and share experiences in deployments or whatever, let's not act as if IRC channels have walls we can't reach across. As part of the kolla-kubernetes community, it's imperative that I can reach across the gap to work with people in the Helm and Kubernetes community. If the deployment tools existed separately, there's nothing stopping them from asking either. But in regards to the question, if kolla-salt is to be a thing, I think the PTL and the kolla team proper can decide that. As a contributor for kolla-kubernetes, it does not and should not affect me. On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Michał Jastrzębski's message of 2017-01-05 11:45:49 -0800: > > I think total separation of projects would require much larger > > discussion in community. Currently we agreed on having kolla-ansible > > and kolla-k8s to be deliverables under kolla umbrella from historical > > reasons. Also I don't agree that there is "little or no overlap" in > > teams, in fact there is ton of overlap, just not 100%. Many > > contributors (myself included) jump between deliverables today. > > OK, that's good to know. It wasn't clear from some of the initial > messages in this thread, which seemed to imply otherwise. > > Doug > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Also coming from the perspective of a Kolla-Kubernetes contributor, I am worried about the scope that Kolla is extending itself to. Moving from a single repo to multiple repo's has made the situation much better, but by operating under a single umbrella I feel that we may potentially be significantly limiting the potential for each deliverable. Alex Schultz, Steve and Sam raise some good points here. The interdependency between the projects is causing issues, the current reliance that Kolla-Kubernetes has on Kolla-ansible is both undesirable and unsustainable in my opinion. This is both because it limits the flexibility that we have as Kolla-Kubernetes developers, but also because it places burden and rigidity on Kolla-Ansible. This will ultimately prevent both projects from being able to take advantage of the capabilities offered to them by the deployment mechanism they use. Like Steve, I don't think the addition of Kolla-aSlt should affect me, and as a result don't feel I should have any say in the project. That said, I'd really like to see it happen in one form or another - as having a wide variety of complementary projects and tooling for OpenStack deployment can only be a good thing for the community if correctly managed. When Kolla started it was very experimental, containers (In their modern form) were a relatively new construct, and it took on the audacious task of trying to package and deploy OpenStack using the tooling that was available at the time. I really feel that this effort has succeeded admirably, and conversations like this are a result of that. Kolla is one of the most active projects in OpenStack, with two deployment mechanisms being developed currently, and hopefully to increase soon with a salt based deployment and potentially even more on the horizon. With this in mind, I return to my original point and wonder if we may be better moving from our current structure of Kolla-deploy(x) to deploy(x)-Kolla and redefine the governance of these deliverables, turning them into freestanding projects. I think this would offer several potential advantages, as it would allow teams to form tighter bonds with the tools and communities they use (ie Kubernetes/Helm, Ansible or Salt). This would also make it easier for these projects to use upstream components where available (eg Ceph, RabbitMQ, and MariaDB) which are (and should be) in many cases better than the artifacts we can produce. To this end, I have been working with the Ceph community to get their Kubernetes Helm implementation to the point where we can use it for our own work, and would love to see more of this. It benefits not only us by offloading support to the upstream project, but gives them a vested interest in supporting us and also helps provide better quality tooling for the entire open source ecosystem. This should also allow Kolla itself to become much more streamlined, and focused simply on producing docker containers for consumption by the community, and make the artifacts produced potentially much less opinionated and more attractive to other projects. And being honest, I have a real desire for this activity to eventually be taken on by the relevant OpenStack projects themselves - and would love to see Kolla help develop a framework that would allow projects to take ownership of the containerisation of their output. Sorry for such a long email - but this seems like a good opportunity to raise some of these issues that have been on my mind. In summary, if it doesn't affect me then I wish a Salt based Kolla deployment the best of success and hope to see the project prosper so that we as OpenStack developers can all share from the increased experience and opportunities growing the community offers. On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 9:43 PM, Steve Wilkerson wrote: > There are some interesting points in this topic. I agree entirely with > Sam Yaple. It does not make sense to me to have kolla-ansible and > kolla-kubernetes cores involved with the introduction of a new deliverable > under the kolla umbrella. A new deliverable (read: project, really) should > not rely on a separate project to ratify its existence. I feel this is > dangerous. I also feel looking at the different deployment methodologies > scoped under the kolla project as competition or rivalry is folly. I'm > honestly a bit concerned about how broad the scope of the project kolla has > become. I think the conversation of separating the deployment projects > from the kolla umbrella is a conversation worth having at some point. > > The repo split was a step in the right direction, but currently the > deliverables (4, if kolla-salt becomes a thing) are sharing a single PTL, a > single IRC channel, and a single IRC weekly meeting. This has the > potential of introducing a significant amount of overhead for the > overarching project as a whole. What happens if kolla-puppet becomes a > thing? What if kolla-mesos was still about? I think we can all agree this > g
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
I think both Pete and Steve make great points and it should be our long term vision. However, I lean more with Michael that we should make that a separate discussion, and it’s probably better done further down the road. Yes, Kolla containers have come a long way, and the ABI has been stable for awhile, but the vast majority of that “for awhile” was with a single deployment tool: ansible. Now we have kolla-k8s and kolla-salt. Neither one is fully featured yet as ansible, which to me means I don’t think we can say for sure that ABI won’t need to change as we try to support many deployment tools. (Someone remind me, didn’t kolla-mesos change the ABI?) Anyway, the point is I don’t think we’re at a point of maturity to be certain the ABI won’t need changing. When we have 2-3 deployment tools with enough feature parity to say, “Any tool should be able to deploy kolla containers” then I think it make sense to have that discussion. I just don’t think we’re there yet. And until the point, changes to the ABI will be quite painful if each project is in outside of the kolla umbrella, IMHO. Thx, britt From: Pete Birley Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Date: Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 6:47 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables Also coming from the perspective of a Kolla-Kubernetes contributor, I am worried about the scope that Kolla is extending itself to. Moving from a single repo to multiple repo's has made the situation much better, but by operating under a single umbrella I feel that we may potentially be significantly limiting the potential for each deliverable. Alex Schultz, Steve and Sam raise some good points here. The interdependency between the projects is causing issues, the current reliance that Kolla-Kubernetes has on Kolla-ansible is both undesirable and unsustainable in my opinion. This is both because it limits the flexibility that we have as Kolla-Kubernetes developers, but also because it places burden and rigidity on Kolla-Ansible. This will ultimately prevent both projects from being able to take advantage of the capabilities offered to them by the deployment mechanism they use. Like Steve, I don't think the addition of Kolla-aSlt should affect me, and as a result don't feel I should have any say in the project. That said, I'd really like to see it happen in one form or another - as having a wide variety of complementary projects and tooling for OpenStack deployment can only be a good thing for the community if correctly managed. When Kolla started it was very experimental, containers (In their modern form) were a relatively new construct, and it took on the audacious task of trying to package and deploy OpenStack using the tooling that was available at the time. I really feel that this effort has succeeded admirably, and conversations like this are a result of that. Kolla is one of the most active projects in OpenStack, with two deployment mechanisms being developed currently, and hopefully to increase soon with a salt based deployment and potentially even more on the horizon. With this in mind, I return to my original point and wonder if we may be better moving from our current structure of Kolla-deploy(x) to deploy(x)-Kolla and redefine the governance of these deliverables, turning them into freestanding projects. I think this would offer several potential advantages, as it would allow teams to form tighter bonds with the tools and communities they use (ie Kubernetes/Helm, Ansible or Salt). This would also make it easier for these projects to use upstream components where available (eg Ceph, RabbitMQ, and MariaDB) which are (and should be) in many cases better than the artifacts we can produce. To this end, I have been working with the Ceph community to get their Kubernetes Helm implementation to the point where we can use it for our own work, and would love to see more of this. It benefits not only us by offloading support to the upstream project, but gives them a vested interest in supporting us and also helps provide better quality tooling for the entire open source ecosystem. This should also allow Kolla itself to become much more streamlined, and focused simply on producing docker containers for consumption by the community, and make the artifacts produced potentially much less opinionated and more attractive to other projects. And being honest, I have a real desire for this activity to eventually be taken on by the relevant OpenStack projects themselves - and would love to see Kolla help develop a framework that would allow projects to take ownership of the containerisation of their output. Sorry for such a long email - but this seems like a good opportunity to raise some of these issues that have been on my mind. In summary, if it doe
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
I'll reply to Britts comments, and then duck out, unless explicitly asked back, as I don't want to (totally) railroad this conversation: The Kolla containers entry-point is a great example of how the field have moved on. While it was initially required, in the Kkubernetes world the Kolla ABI is actually more of a hindrance than help, as it makes the containers much more of a 'black-box' to use. In the other Openstack on Kubernetes projects I contribute to, and my own independent work, in we actually just define the entry point to the container directly in the k8s manifest and make no use of Kolla's entry point and config mechanisms, either running another 'init' container to build and bind mount the configuration (Harbor), or use Kubernetes configmap object to achieve the same result (Openstack Helm). It would be perfectly possible for Kolla Ansible (and indeed Salt) to take a similar approach - meaning that rather maintaining an ABI that works for all platforms, Kolla would be free to just ensure that the required binaries were present in images. I agree that this cannot happen overnight, but think that when appropriate we should take stock of where we are and how to plot a course that lets all of our projects flourish without competing for resources, or being so entwined that we become technically paralyzed and overloaded. Sorry, Sam and Michal! You can have your thread back now :) On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 1:17 AM, Britt Houser (bhouser) wrote: > I think both Pete and Steve make great points and it should be our long > term vision. However, I lean more with Michael that we should make that a > separate discussion, and it’s probably better done further down the road. > Yes, Kolla containers have come a long way, and the ABI has been stable for > awhile, but the vast majority of that “for awhile” was with a single > deployment tool: ansible. Now we have kolla-k8s and kolla-salt. Neither > one is fully featured yet as ansible, which to me means I don’t think we > can say for sure that ABI won’t need to change as we try to support many > deployment tools. (Someone remind me, didn’t kolla-mesos change the ABI?) > Anyway, the point is I don’t think we’re at a point of maturity to be > certain the ABI won’t need changing. When we have 2-3 deployment tools > with enough feature parity to say, “Any tool should be able to deploy kolla > containers” then I think it make sense to have that discussion. I just > don’t think we’re there yet. And until the point, changes to the ABI will > be quite painful if each project is in outside of the kolla umbrella, IMHO. > > > > Thx, > > britt > > > > *From: *Pete Birley > *Reply-To: *"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage > questions)" > *Date: *Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 6:47 PM > *To: *"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > *Subject: *Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > > > Also coming from the perspective of a Kolla-Kubernetes contributor, I am > worried about the scope that Kolla is extending itself to. > > > > Moving from a single repo to multiple repo's has made the situation much > better, but by operating under a single umbrella I feel that we may > potentially be significantly limiting the potential for each deliverable. > Alex Schultz, Steve and Sam raise some good points here. > > > > The interdependency between the projects is causing issues, the current > reliance that Kolla-Kubernetes has on Kolla-ansible is both undesirable and > unsustainable in my opinion. This is both because it limits the flexibility > that we have as Kolla-Kubernetes developers, but also because it places > burden and rigidity on Kolla-Ansible. This will ultimately prevent both > projects from being able to take advantage of the capabilities offered to > them by the deployment mechanism they use. > > > > Like Steve, I don't think the addition of Kolla-aSlt should affect me, and > as a result don't feel I should have any say in the project. That said, I'd > really like to see it happen in one form or another - as having a wide > variety of complementary projects and tooling for OpenStack deployment can > only be a good thing for the community if correctly managed. > > > > When Kolla started it was very experimental, containers (In their modern > form) were a relatively new construct, and it took on the audacious task of > trying to package and deploy OpenStack using the tooling that was available > at the time. I really feel that this effort has succeeded admirably, and > conversations like this are a result of that. Kolla is one of the most > active projects in OpenStack, with two deploymen
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
I think you’re giving a great example of my point that we’re not yet at the stage where we can say, “Any tool should be able to deploy kolla containers”. Right? From: Pete Birley Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Date: Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 9:06 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables I'll reply to Britts comments, and then duck out, unless explicitly asked back, as I don't want to (totally) railroad this conversation: The Kolla containers entry-point is a great example of how the field have moved on. While it was initially required, in the Kkubernetes world the Kolla ABI is actually more of a hindrance than help, as it makes the containers much more of a 'black-box' to use. In the other Openstack on Kubernetes projects I contribute to, and my own independent work, in we actually just define the entry point to the container directly in the k8s manifest and make no use of Kolla's entry point and config mechanisms, either running another 'init' container to build and bind mount the configuration (Harbor), or use Kubernetes configmap object to achieve the same result (Openstack Helm). It would be perfectly possible for Kolla Ansible (and indeed Salt) to take a similar approach - meaning that rather maintaining an ABI that works for all platforms, Kolla would be free to just ensure that the required binaries were present in images. I agree that this cannot happen overnight, but think that when appropriate we should take stock of where we are and how to plot a course that lets all of our projects flourish without competing for resources, or being so entwined that we become technically paralyzed and overloaded. Sorry, Sam and Michal! You can have your thread back now :) On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 1:17 AM, Britt Houser (bhouser) mailto:bhou...@cisco.com>> wrote: I think both Pete and Steve make great points and it should be our long term vision. However, I lean more with Michael that we should make that a separate discussion, and it’s probably better done further down the road. Yes, Kolla containers have come a long way, and the ABI has been stable for awhile, but the vast majority of that “for awhile” was with a single deployment tool: ansible. Now we have kolla-k8s and kolla-salt. Neither one is fully featured yet as ansible, which to me means I don’t think we can say for sure that ABI won’t need to change as we try to support many deployment tools. (Someone remind me, didn’t kolla-mesos change the ABI?) Anyway, the point is I don’t think we’re at a point of maturity to be certain the ABI won’t need changing. When we have 2-3 deployment tools with enough feature parity to say, “Any tool should be able to deploy kolla containers” then I think it make sense to have that discussion. I just don’t think we’re there yet. And until the point, changes to the ABI will be quite painful if each project is in outside of the kolla umbrella, IMHO. Thx, britt From: Pete Birley Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 6:47 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables Also coming from the perspective of a Kolla-Kubernetes contributor, I am worried about the scope that Kolla is extending itself to. Moving from a single repo to multiple repo's has made the situation much better, but by operating under a single umbrella I feel that we may potentially be significantly limiting the potential for each deliverable. Alex Schultz, Steve and Sam raise some good points here. The interdependency between the projects is causing issues, the current reliance that Kolla-Kubernetes has on Kolla-ansible is both undesirable and unsustainable in my opinion. This is both because it limits the flexibility that we have as Kolla-Kubernetes developers, but also because it places burden and rigidity on Kolla-Ansible. This will ultimately prevent both projects from being able to take advantage of the capabilities offered to them by the deployment mechanism they use. Like Steve, I don't think the addition of Kolla-aSlt should affect me, and as a result don't feel I should have any say in the project. That said, I'd really like to see it happen in one form or another - as having a wide variety of complementary projects and tooling for OpenStack deployment can only be a good thing for the community if correctly managed. When Kolla started it was very experimental, containers (In their modern form) were a relatively new construct, and it took on the audacious task of trying to package and
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
I created CIVS poll with options we discussed. Every core member should get link to poll voting, if that's not the case, please let me know. On 5 January 2017 at 19:07, Britt Houser (bhouser) wrote: > I think you’re giving a great example of my point that we’re not yet at > the stage where we can say, “Any tool should be able to deploy kolla > containers”. Right? > > > > *From: *Pete Birley > *Reply-To: *"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage > questions)" > *Date: *Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 9:06 PM > > *To: *"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > *Subject: *Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > > > I'll reply to Britts comments, and then duck out, unless explicitly asked > back, as I don't want to (totally) railroad this conversation: > > > > The Kolla containers entry-point is a great example of how the field have > moved on. While it was initially required, in the Kkubernetes world the > Kolla ABI is actually more of a hindrance than help, as it makes the > containers much more of a 'black-box' to use. In the other Openstack on > Kubernetes projects I contribute to, and my own independent work, in we > actually just define the entry point to the container directly in the k8s > manifest and make no use of Kolla's entry point and config mechanisms, > either running another 'init' container to build and bind mount the > configuration (Harbor), or use Kubernetes configmap object to achieve the > same result (Openstack Helm). It would be perfectly possible for Kolla > Ansible (and indeed Salt) to take a similar approach - meaning that rather > maintaining an ABI that works for all platforms, Kolla would be free to > just ensure that the required binaries were present in images. > > > > I agree that this cannot happen overnight, but think that when appropriate > we should take stock of where we are and how to plot a course that lets all > of our projects flourish without competing for resources, or being so > entwined that we become technically paralyzed and overloaded. > > Sorry, Sam and Michal! You can have your thread back now :) > > > > On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 1:17 AM, Britt Houser (bhouser) > wrote: > > I think both Pete and Steve make great points and it should be our long > term vision. However, I lean more with Michael that we should make that a > separate discussion, and it’s probably better done further down the road. > Yes, Kolla containers have come a long way, and the ABI has been stable for > awhile, but the vast majority of that “for awhile” was with a single > deployment tool: ansible. Now we have kolla-k8s and kolla-salt. Neither > one is fully featured yet as ansible, which to me means I don’t think we > can say for sure that ABI won’t need to change as we try to support many > deployment tools. (Someone remind me, didn’t kolla-mesos change the ABI?) > Anyway, the point is I don’t think we’re at a point of maturity to be > certain the ABI won’t need changing. When we have 2-3 deployment tools > with enough feature parity to say, “Any tool should be able to deploy kolla > containers” then I think it make sense to have that discussion. I just > don’t think we’re there yet. And until the point, changes to the ABI will > be quite painful if each project is in outside of the kolla umbrella, IMHO. > > > > Thx, > > britt > > > > *From: *Pete Birley > *Reply-To: *"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage > questions)" > *Date: *Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 6:47 PM > *To: *"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > *Subject: *Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > > > Also coming from the perspective of a Kolla-Kubernetes contributor, I am > worried about the scope that Kolla is extending itself to. > > > > Moving from a single repo to multiple repo's has made the situation much > better, but by operating under a single umbrella I feel that we may > potentially be significantly limiting the potential for each deliverable. > Alex Schultz, Steve and Sam raise some good points here. > > > > The interdependency between the projects is causing issues, the current > reliance that Kolla-Kubernetes has on Kolla-ansible is both undesirable and > unsustainable in my opinion. This is both because it limits the flexibility > that we have as Kolla-Kubernetes developers, but also because it places > burden and rigidity on Kolla-Ansible. This will ultimately prevent both > projects from being able to take advan
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > I created CIVS poll with options we discussed. Every core member should > get link to poll voting, if that's not the case, please let me know. Just a quick sidenote to explain how the "big-tent" model of governance plays in here... In the previous project structure model, we had "programs". If you wanted to do networking stuff, you had to join the Networking program (neutron). If you worked on object storage, you had to join the Object Storage program (swift). The main issue with this model is that it prevented alternate approaches from emerging (as a program PTL could just refuse its emergence to continue to "own" that space). It also created weird situations where there would be multiple distinct groups of people in a program, but a single PTL to elect to represent them all. That created unnecessary political issues within programs and tension around PTL election. Part of the big-tent project structure reform was to abolish programs and organize our work around "teams", rather than "themes". Project teams should be strongly aligned with a single team of people that work together. That allowed some amount of competition to emerge (we still try to avoid "gratuitous duplication of effort"), but most importantly made sure groups of people could "own" their work without having to defer to an outside core team or PTL. So if you have a distinct team, it should be its own separate project team with its own PTL. There is no program or namespace anymore. As a bonus side-effect, it made sure teams would not indefinitely grow, and we all know that it's difficult to grow core teams (and trust) beyond a certain point. This is why we have multiple packaging project teams, each specialized in a given package orchestration mechanism, rather than have a single "Packaging" program with a single PTL and Ansible / Puppet / Chef fighting in elections to get their man at the helm. This is why the Storlets team, while deeply related to Swift and in very good collaboration terms with them, was set up as a separate project team. Different people, different team. The fact that you're having hard discussions in Kolla about "adding new deliverables" produced by distinct groups of people indicates that you may be using Kolla as an old-style "program" rather than as a single team. Why not set them up as separate project teams ? What am I missing here ? -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Thierry Carrez wrote: > [...] > The fact that you're having hard discussions in Kolla about "adding new > deliverables" produced by distinct groups of people indicates that you > may be using Kolla as an old-style "program" rather than as a single > team. Why not set them up as separate project teams ? What am I missing > here ? Answering my own question using Michał's previous answer in the thread: Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > Having single Kolla umbrella has practical benefits which I would hate > to lose quite frankly. One of which would be that Kolla is being > evaluated by lot of different companies, and having full separation > between projects would make navigation of a landscape harder. That sounds like you're building a "Kolla" brand and afraid that a more distributed project structure would hurt that... So this is going a bit against the grain of the OpenStack project structure (which is designed to facilitate people to openly collaborate, not really to create sub-brands). Also when you say companies evaluate "Kolla", in the end don't they choose one of the kolla-* flavors to deploy, rather than "Kolla" ? It feels like multiple projects could depend on Kolla images (which everyone seems to be very happy with) without breaking that ? > Another reason is single community which we value - there is no full > separation even between kolla-ansible and kolla-k8s (ansible still > generates config files for k8s for example), and further separation of > projects would hurt cooperation, and I don't think we've hit situation > when it's necessary. I'm not ready to have this discussion yet, and > I'm personally quite opposed to this. Wondering if this lack of separation is an artifact of the single-project-team model you picked, rather than a reason to keep it... Stronger contracts and proper decomposition of roles sounds like a worthwhile goal ? -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Thierry, I am not a big fan of the separate gerrit teams we have instituted inside the Kolla project. I always believed we should have one core reviewer team responsible for all deliverables to avoid not just the appearance but the reality that each team would fragment the overall community of people working on Kolla containers and deployment tools. This is yet another reason I didn’t want to split the repositories into separate deliverables in the first place – since it further fragments the community working on Kolla deliverables. When we made our original mission statement, I originally wanted it scoped around just Ansible and Docker. Fortunately, the core review team at the time made it much more general and broad before we joined the big tent. Our mission statement permits multiple different orchestration tools. Kolla is not “themed”, at least to me. Instead it is one community with slightly different interests (some people work on Ansible, some on Kubernetes, some on containers, some on all 3, etc). If we break that into separate projects with separate PTLs, those projects may end up competing with each other (which isn’t happening now inside Kolla). I think competition is a good thing. In this case, I am of the opinion it is high time we end the competition on deployment tools related to containers and get everyone working together rather than apart. That is, unless those folks want to “work apart” which of course is their prerogative. I wouldn’t suggest merging teams today that are separate that don’t have a desire to merge. That said, Kolla is very warm and open to new contributors so hopefully no more new duplicate effort solutions are started. Siloing the deliverables into separate teams I believe would result in the competition I just mentioned, and further discord between the deployment tool projects in the big tent. We need consolidation around people working together, not division. Division around Kolla weakens Kolla specifically and doesn’t help out OpenStack all that much either. The idea of branding or themes is not really relevant to me. Instead this is all about the people producing and consuming Kolla. I’d like these folks to work together as much as feasible. Breaking a sub-community apart (in this case Kolla) into up to 4 different communities with 4 different PTLs sounds wrong to me. I hope my position is clear ☺ If not, feel free to ask any follow-up questions. Regards -steve -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez Organization: OpenStack Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 4:21 AM To: "openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > I created CIVS poll with options we discussed. Every core member should > get link to poll voting, if that's not the case, please let me know. Just a quick sidenote to explain how the "big-tent" model of governance plays in here... In the previous project structure model, we had "programs". If you wanted to do networking stuff, you had to join the Networking program (neutron). If you worked on object storage, you had to join the Object Storage program (swift). The main issue with this model is that it prevented alternate approaches from emerging (as a program PTL could just refuse its emergence to continue to "own" that space). It also created weird situations where there would be multiple distinct groups of people in a program, but a single PTL to elect to represent them all. That created unnecessary political issues within programs and tension around PTL election. Part of the big-tent project structure reform was to abolish programs and organize our work around "teams", rather than "themes". Project teams should be strongly aligned with a single team of people that work together. That allowed some amount of competition to emerge (we still try to avoid "gratuitous duplication of effort"), but most importantly made sure groups of people could "own" their work without having to defer to an outside core team or PTL. So if you have a distinct team, it should be its own separate project team with its own PTL. There is no program or namespace anymore. As a bonus side-effect, it made sure teams would not indefinitely grow, and we all know that it's difficult to grow core teams (and trust) beyond a certain point. This is why we have multiple packaging project teams, each specialized in a given package orchestration mechanism, rather than have a single "Packaging" program with a single PTL and Ansible / Puppet / Chef fighting in elections to get their man at the helm. This is why the
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
le to better target their unique means to the same end, OpenStack benefits all around. I'd also like to see people with the same targeted means for achieving the same end working together. I think splitting the Kolla-* out into their own projects and letting the contributors interested in those projects work on them separately best enables that goal, not having them operate under one, large umbrella. On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Steven Dake (stdake) wrote: > Thierry, > > I am not a big fan of the separate gerrit teams we have instituted inside > the Kolla project. I always believed we should have one core reviewer team > responsible for all deliverables to avoid not just the appearance but the > reality that each team would fragment the overall community of people > working on Kolla containers and deployment tools. This is yet another > reason I didn’t want to split the repositories into separate deliverables > in the first place – since it further fragments the community working on > Kolla deliverables. > > When we made our original mission statement, I originally wanted it scoped > around just Ansible and Docker. Fortunately, the core review team at the > time made it much more general and broad before we joined the big tent. > Our mission statement permits multiple different orchestration tools. > > Kolla is not “themed”, at least to me. Instead it is one community with > slightly different interests (some people work on Ansible, some on > Kubernetes, some on containers, some on all 3, etc). If we break that into > separate projects with separate PTLs, those projects may end up competing > with each other (which isn’t happening now inside Kolla). I think > competition is a good thing. In this case, I am of the opinion it is high > time we end the competition on deployment tools related to containers and > get everyone working together rather than apart. That is, unless those > folks want to “work apart” which of course is their prerogative. I > wouldn’t suggest merging teams today that are separate that don’t have a > desire to merge. That said, Kolla is very warm and open to new > contributors so hopefully no more new duplicate effort solutions are > started. > > Siloing the deliverables into separate teams I believe would result in the > competition I just mentioned, and further discord between the deployment > tool projects in the big tent. We need consolidation around people working > together, not division. Division around Kolla weakens Kolla specifically > and doesn’t help out OpenStack all that much either. > > The idea of branding or themes is not really relevant to me. Instead this > is all about the people producing and consuming Kolla. I’d like these > folks to work together as much as feasible. Breaking a sub-community apart > (in this case Kolla) into up to 4 different communities with 4 different > PTLs sounds wrong to me. > > I hope my position is clear ☺ If not, feel free to ask any follow-up > questions. > > Regards > -steve > > > -Original Message- > From: Thierry Carrez > Organization: OpenStack > Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 4:21 AM > To: "openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" > > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > > I created CIVS poll with options we discussed. Every core member > should > > get link to poll voting, if that's not the case, please let me know. > > Just a quick sidenote to explain how the "big-tent" model of governance > plays in here... > > In the previous project structure model, we had "programs". If you > wanted to do networking stuff, you had to join the Networking program > (neutron). If you worked on object storage, you had to join the Object > Storage program (swift). The main issue with this model is that it > prevented alternate approaches from emerging (as a program PTL could > just refuse its emergence to continue to "own" that space). It also > created weird situations where there would be multiple distinct groups > of people in a program, but a single PTL to elect to represent them > all. > That created unnecessary political issues within programs and tension > around PTL election. > > Part of the big-tent project structure reform was to abolish programs > and organize our work around "teams", rather than "themes". Project > teams should be strongly aligned with a single team of people that work > together. That all
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Excerpts from Steven Dake (stdake)'s message of 2017-01-11 14:50:31 +: > Thierry, > > I am not a big fan of the separate gerrit teams we have instituted inside the > Kolla project. I always believed we should have one core reviewer team > responsible for all deliverables to avoid not just the appearance but the > reality that each team would fragment the overall community of people working > on Kolla containers and deployment tools. This is yet another reason I > didn’t want to split the repositories into separate deliverables in the first > place – since it further fragments the community working on Kolla > deliverables. > > When we made our original mission statement, I originally wanted it scoped > around just Ansible and Docker. Fortunately, the core review team at the > time made it much more general and broad before we joined the big tent. Our > mission statement permits multiple different orchestration tools. > > Kolla is not “themed”, at least to me. Instead it is one community with > slightly different interests (some people work on Ansible, some on > Kubernetes, some on containers, some on all 3, etc). If we break that into > separate projects with separate PTLs, those projects may end up competing > with each other (which isn’t happening now inside Kolla). I think > competition is a good thing. In this case, I am of the opinion it is high > time we end the competition on deployment tools related to containers and get > everyone working together rather than apart. That is, unless those folks > want to “work apart” which of course is their prerogative. I wouldn’t > suggest merging teams today that are separate that don’t have a desire to > merge. That said, Kolla is very warm and open to new contributors so > hopefully no more new duplicate effort solutions are started. It sure sounds to me like you want Kolla to "own" container deployment tools. As Thierry said, we aren't intended to be organized that way any more. > Siloing the deliverables into separate teams I believe would result in the > competition I just mentioned, and further discord between the deployment tool > projects in the big tent. We need consolidation around people working > together, not division. Division around Kolla weakens Kolla specifically and > doesn’t help out OpenStack all that much either. I would hope that the spirit of collaboration could extend across team boundaries. #WeAreOpenStack Doug > > The idea of branding or themes is not really relevant to me. Instead this is > all about the people producing and consuming Kolla. I’d like these folks to > work together as much as feasible. Breaking a sub-community apart (in this > case Kolla) into up to 4 different communities with 4 different PTLs sounds > wrong to me. > > I hope my position is clear ☺ If not, feel free to ask any follow-up > questions. > > Regards > -steve > > -Original Message- > From: Thierry Carrez > Organization: OpenStack > Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" > > Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 4:21 AM > To: "openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > > I created CIVS poll with options we discussed. Every core member should > > get link to poll voting, if that's not the case, please let me know. > > Just a quick sidenote to explain how the "big-tent" model of governance > plays in here... > > In the previous project structure model, we had "programs". If you > wanted to do networking stuff, you had to join the Networking program > (neutron). If you worked on object storage, you had to join the Object > Storage program (swift). The main issue with this model is that it > prevented alternate approaches from emerging (as a program PTL could > just refuse its emergence to continue to "own" that space). It also > created weird situations where there would be multiple distinct groups > of people in a program, but a single PTL to elect to represent them all. > That created unnecessary political issues within programs and tension > around PTL election. > > Part of the big-tent project structure reform was to abolish programs > and organize our work around "teams", rather than "themes". Project > teams should be strongly aligned with a single team of people that work > together. That allowed some amount of competition to emerge (we still > try to avoid "gratuitous duplication of effort"), but most importantly > made
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
So from my point of view, while I understand why project separation makes sense in the long run, I will argue that at this moment it will be hurtful for the project. Our community is still fairly integrated, and I'd love to keep it this way a while longer. We haven't yet fully cleaned up mess that split of kolla-ansible caused (documentation and whatnot). Having small revolution like that again is something that would greatly hinder our ability to deliver valuable project, and I think for now that should be our priority. To me, at least before we will have more than one prod-ready deployment tool, separation of projects would be bad. I think project separation should be a process instead of revolution, and we already started this process by separating kolla-ansible repo and core team. I'd be happy to discuss how to pave road for full project separation without causing pain for operators, users and developers, as to me their best interest should take priority. Cheers, Michal On 11 January 2017 at 09:59, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Steven Dake (stdake)'s message of 2017-01-11 14:50:31 +: >> Thierry, >> >> I am not a big fan of the separate gerrit teams we have instituted inside >> the Kolla project. I always believed we should have one core reviewer team >> responsible for all deliverables to avoid not just the appearance but the >> reality that each team would fragment the overall community of people >> working on Kolla containers and deployment tools. This is yet another >> reason I didn’t want to split the repositories into separate deliverables in >> the first place – since it further fragments the community working on Kolla >> deliverables. >> >> When we made our original mission statement, I originally wanted it scoped >> around just Ansible and Docker. Fortunately, the core review team at the >> time made it much more general and broad before we joined the big tent. Our >> mission statement permits multiple different orchestration tools. >> >> Kolla is not “themed”, at least to me. Instead it is one community with >> slightly different interests (some people work on Ansible, some on >> Kubernetes, some on containers, some on all 3, etc). If we break that into >> separate projects with separate PTLs, those projects may end up competing >> with each other (which isn’t happening now inside Kolla). I think >> competition is a good thing. In this case, I am of the opinion it is high >> time we end the competition on deployment tools related to containers and >> get everyone working together rather than apart. That is, unless those >> folks want to “work apart” which of course is their prerogative. I wouldn’t >> suggest merging teams today that are separate that don’t have a desire to >> merge. That said, Kolla is very warm and open to new contributors so >> hopefully no more new duplicate effort solutions are started. > > It sure sounds to me like you want Kolla to "own" container deployment > tools. As Thierry said, we aren't intended to be organized that way any > more. > >> Siloing the deliverables into separate teams I believe would result in the >> competition I just mentioned, and further discord between the deployment >> tool projects in the big tent. We need consolidation around people working >> together, not division. Division around Kolla weakens Kolla specifically >> and doesn’t help out OpenStack all that much either. > > I would hope that the spirit of collaboration could extend across team > boundaries. #WeAreOpenStack > > Doug > >> >> The idea of branding or themes is not really relevant to me. Instead this >> is all about the people producing and consuming Kolla. I’d like these folks >> to work together as much as feasible. Breaking a sub-community apart (in >> this case Kolla) into up to 4 different communities with 4 different PTLs >> sounds wrong to me. >> >> I hope my position is clear ☺ If not, feel free to ask any follow-up >> questions. >> >> Regards >> -steve >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Thierry Carrez >> Organization: OpenStack >> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" >> >> Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 4:21 AM >> To: "openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" >> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables >> >> Michał Jastrzębski wrote: >> > I created CIVS poll with options we discussed. Every core member should >> > get link to poll voting, if that's not the case, please let me know. >
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Doug, I apologize for not being able to reply inline. Bug in outlook. I am probably going to start posting/responding on the ml with my gmail account so I can properly communicate with ml. To your two points. I don’t want kolla to “own” all deployment with containers. I want kolla and it’s deliverables to operate as one community. TripleO is consuming kolla containers currently – and our core team is suppoprtive of that. Just this morning I approved a tripleo blueprint to enable TripleO to use kolla containers. My actions maybe here speak louder than my words ☺ I agree we could work across project boundaries because we are one community (OpenStack). I also believe it would be more difficult to do so because of channel siloing, meeting siloing, developer siloing, etc. Kolla really works hard to operate within the boundaries of the 4 Opens without ANY exception. Regards -steve -Original Message- From: Doug Hellmann Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 10:59 AM To: openstack-dev Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables Excerpts from Steven Dake (stdake)'s message of 2017-01-11 14:50:31 +: > Thierry, > > I am not a big fan of the separate gerrit teams we have instituted inside the Kolla project. I always believed we should have one core reviewer team responsible for all deliverables to avoid not just the appearance but the reality that each team would fragment the overall community of people working on Kolla containers and deployment tools. This is yet another reason I didn’t want to split the repositories into separate deliverables in the first place – since it further fragments the community working on Kolla deliverables. > > When we made our original mission statement, I originally wanted it scoped around just Ansible and Docker. Fortunately, the core review team at the time made it much more general and broad before we joined the big tent. Our mission statement permits multiple different orchestration tools. > > Kolla is not “themed”, at least to me. Instead it is one community with slightly different interests (some people work on Ansible, some on Kubernetes, some on containers, some on all 3, etc). If we break that into separate projects with separate PTLs, those projects may end up competing with each other (which isn’t happening now inside Kolla). I think competition is a good thing. In this case, I am of the opinion it is high time we end the competition on deployment tools related to containers and get everyone working together rather than apart. That is, unless those folks want to “work apart” which of course is their prerogative. I wouldn’t suggest merging teams today that are separate that don’t have a desire to merge. That said, Kolla is very warm and open to new contributors so hopefully no more new duplicate effort solutions are started. It sure sounds to me like you want Kolla to "own" container deployment tools. As Thierry said, we aren't intended to be organized that way any more. > Siloing the deliverables into separate teams I believe would result in the competition I just mentioned, and further discord between the deployment tool projects in the big tent. We need consolidation around people working together, not division. Division around Kolla weakens Kolla specifically and doesn’t help out OpenStack all that much either. I would hope that the spirit of collaboration could extend across team boundaries. #WeAreOpenStack Doug > > The idea of branding or themes is not really relevant to me. Instead this is all about the people producing and consuming Kolla. I’d like these folks to work together as much as feasible. Breaking a sub-community apart (in this case Kolla) into up to 4 different communities with 4 different PTLs sounds wrong to me. > > I hope my position is clear ☺ If not, feel free to ask any follow-up questions. > > Regards > -steve > > -Original Message- > From: Thierry Carrez > Organization: OpenStack > Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" > Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 4:21 AM > To: "openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > > I created CIVS poll with options we discussed. Every core member should > > get link to poll voting, if that's not the case, please let me know. > > Just a quick sidenote to explain how the "big-tent" model of governance > plays in here... &g
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
My sentiments exactly Michal. We’ll get there, but let’s not jump the gun quite yet. On 1/11/17, 1:38 PM, "Michał Jastrzębski" wrote: So from my point of view, while I understand why project separation makes sense in the long run, I will argue that at this moment it will be hurtful for the project. Our community is still fairly integrated, and I'd love to keep it this way a while longer. We haven't yet fully cleaned up mess that split of kolla-ansible caused (documentation and whatnot). Having small revolution like that again is something that would greatly hinder our ability to deliver valuable project, and I think for now that should be our priority. To me, at least before we will have more than one prod-ready deployment tool, separation of projects would be bad. I think project separation should be a process instead of revolution, and we already started this process by separating kolla-ansible repo and core team. I'd be happy to discuss how to pave road for full project separation without causing pain for operators, users and developers, as to me their best interest should take priority. Cheers, Michal On 11 January 2017 at 09:59, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Steven Dake (stdake)'s message of 2017-01-11 14:50:31 +: >> Thierry, >> >> I am not a big fan of the separate gerrit teams we have instituted inside the Kolla project. I always believed we should have one core reviewer team responsible for all deliverables to avoid not just the appearance but the reality that each team would fragment the overall community of people working on Kolla containers and deployment tools. This is yet another reason I didn’t want to split the repositories into separate deliverables in the first place – since it further fragments the community working on Kolla deliverables. >> >> When we made our original mission statement, I originally wanted it scoped around just Ansible and Docker. Fortunately, the core review team at the time made it much more general and broad before we joined the big tent. Our mission statement permits multiple different orchestration tools. >> >> Kolla is not “themed”, at least to me. Instead it is one community with slightly different interests (some people work on Ansible, some on Kubernetes, some on containers, some on all 3, etc). If we break that into separate projects with separate PTLs, those projects may end up competing with each other (which isn’t happening now inside Kolla). I think competition is a good thing. In this case, I am of the opinion it is high time we end the competition on deployment tools related to containers and get everyone working together rather than apart. That is, unless those folks want to “work apart” which of course is their prerogative. I wouldn’t suggest merging teams today that are separate that don’t have a desire to merge. That said, Kolla is very warm and open to new contributors so hopefully no more new duplicate effort solutions are started. > > It sure sounds to me like you want Kolla to "own" container deployment > tools. As Thierry said, we aren't intended to be organized that way any > more. > >> Siloing the deliverables into separate teams I believe would result in the competition I just mentioned, and further discord between the deployment tool projects in the big tent. We need consolidation around people working together, not division. Division around Kolla weakens Kolla specifically and doesn’t help out OpenStack all that much either. > > I would hope that the spirit of collaboration could extend across team > boundaries. #WeAreOpenStack > > Doug > >> >> The idea of branding or themes is not really relevant to me. Instead this is all about the people producing and consuming Kolla. I’d like these folks to work together as much as feasible. Breaking a sub-community apart (in this case Kolla) into up to 4 different communities with 4 different PTLs sounds wrong to me. >> >> I hope my position is clear ☺ If not, feel free to ask any follow-up questions. >> >> Regards >> -steve >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Thierry Carrez >> Organization: OpenStack >> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" >> Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 4:21 AM >> To: "openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" >> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables >> >> Michał Jastrzębski wrote: >> > I created CIVS poll with options we discussed. Every cor
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
rt. That is, unless those folks >> want to “work apart” which of course is their prerogative. I wouldn’t >> suggest merging teams today that are separate that don’t have a desire to >> merge. That said, Kolla is very warm and open to new contributors so >> hopefully no more new duplicate effort solutions are started. > > It sure sounds to me like you want Kolla to "own" container deployment > tools. As Thierry said, we aren't intended to be organized that way any > more. > >> Siloing the deliverables into separate teams I believe would result in the >> competition I just mentioned, and further discord between the deployment >> tool projects in the big tent. We need consolidation around people working >> together, not division. Division around Kolla weakens Kolla specifically and >> doesn’t help out OpenStack all that much either. > > I would hope that the spirit of collaboration could extend across team > boundaries. #WeAreOpenStack > > Doug > >> >> The idea of branding or themes is not really relevant to me. Instead this is >> all about the people producing and consuming Kolla. I’d like these folks to >> work together as much as feasible. Breaking a sub-community apart (in this >> case Kolla) into up to 4 different communities with 4 different PTLs sounds >> wrong to me. >> >> I hope my position is clear ☺ If not, feel free to ask any follow-up >> questions. >> >> Regards >> -steve >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Thierry Carrez >> Organization: OpenStack >> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" >> >> Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 4:21 AM >> To: "openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" >> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables >> >> Michał Jastrzębski wrote: >> > I created CIVS poll with options we discussed. Every core member should >> > get link to poll voting, if that's not the case, please let me know. >> >> Just a quick sidenote to explain how the "big-tent" model of governance >> plays in here... >> >> In the previous project structure model, we had "programs". If you >> wanted to do networking stuff, you had to join the Networking program >> (neutron). If you worked on object storage, you had to join the Object >> Storage program (swift). The main issue with this model is that it >> prevented alternate approaches from emerging (as a program PTL could >> just refuse its emergence to continue to "own" that space). It also >> created weird situations where there would be multiple distinct groups >> of people in a program, but a single PTL to elect to represent them all. >> That created unnecessary political issues within programs and tension >> around PTL election. >> >> Part of the big-tent project structure reform was to abolish programs >> and organize our work around "teams", rather than "themes". Project >> teams should be strongly aligned with a single team of people that work >> together. That allowed some amount of competition to emerge (we still >> try to avoid "gratuitous duplication of effort"), but most importantly >> made sure groups of people could "own" their work without having to >> defer to an outside core team or PTL. So if you have a distinct team, it >> should be its own separate project team with its own PTL. There is no >> program or namespace anymore. As a bonus side-effect, it made sure teams >> would not indefinitely grow, and we all know that it's difficult to grow >> core teams (and trust) beyond a certain point. >> >> This is why we have multiple packaging project teams, each specialized >> in a given package orchestration mechanism, rather than have a single >> "Packaging" program with a single PTL and Ansible / Puppet / Chef >> fighting in elections to get their man at the helm. This is why the >> Storlets team, while deeply related to Swift and in very good >> collaboration terms with them, was set up as a separate project team. >> Different people, different team. >> >> The fact that you're having hard discussions in Kolla about "adding new >> deliverables" produced by distinct groups of people indicates that you >> may be using Kolla as an old-style "program" rather than as a single >> team. Why not set them up as separate project teams ? What am I missing >> here ? >> >> -- >> Thierry Carrez (ttx) >> >> ___
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Brandon, Your question is a mix of political and technical aspects that I am not permitted to answer until Monday because of my parsing of this email from Mark Collier: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2017-January/002446.html I will answer you Monday after the individual board of directors elections conclude. Regards -steve From: "Brandon B. Jozsa" Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 12:36 PM To: "Britt Houser (bhouser)" , "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables To your point Steve, then I’d image that Kolla would have no objection to the introduction of other Openstack-namespace projects that provide alternative image formats, integration choices, or orchestration variances for those in the larger community who do not want to use Kolla images. All of the Kolla-x projects point to this one source of truth in the end. This results in large to the many projects falling under the Kolla umbrella: Kolla, Kolla-Mesos, Kolla-Ansible, Kolla-Kubernetes, Kolla-Salt, and I’d assume whatever else wants to consume Kolla, if things continue as they are. My immediate ask is "what are the potential negative impacts to Kolla having so many projects under one mission”: fragmentation of goals, misunderstanding of mission, increased developer debt across each inter-twined project (cross-repo commits and reviews), complex gating requirements? #kolla has been a place of spirited debate with the recent addition of Kolla-Kubernetes, and I think some of this is the result of the problems I’m alluding to. It’s very difficult to preserve what Kolla is at it’s core, and in turn preserve the benefits of something like Kubernetes which has a Runtime Interface abstraction model. It’s a tough sell for the larger Openstack community, and this is a critical time for Openstack and CNCF interoperability; would you not agree? I’m failing to see the benefits you mention outweighing what others might see as potential pitfalls. My viewpoint is not news to those in Kolla. I’ve expressed this in Kolla already, and this is why I’m disappointed when Kolla-Kuberntes drops Secs in favor of quicker ad-hoc IRC architecturally-focused discussions. So my question now becomes; "How is Kolla addressing these issues, and what has Kolla been doing with the assistance of the Openstack Foundation to gain the confidence of those who are watching Kolla and looking for that next cool container project”? Brandon B. Jozsa On January 11, 2017 at 1:46:13 PM, Britt Houser (bhouser) (bhou...@cisco.com<mailto:bhou...@cisco.com>) wrote: My sentiments exactly Michal. We’ll get there, but let’s not jump the gun quite yet. On 1/11/17, 1:38 PM, "Michał Jastrzębski" wrote: So from my point of view, while I understand why project separation makes sense in the long run, I will argue that at this moment it will be hurtful for the project. Our community is still fairly integrated, and I'd love to keep it this way a while longer. We haven't yet fully cleaned up mess that split of kolla-ansible caused (documentation and whatnot). Having small revolution like that again is something that would greatly hinder our ability to deliver valuable project, and I think for now that should be our priority. To me, at least before we will have more than one prod-ready deployment tool, separation of projects would be bad. I think project separation should be a process instead of revolution, and we already started this process by separating kolla-ansible repo and core team. I'd be happy to discuss how to pave road for full project separation without causing pain for operators, users and developers, as to me their best interest should take priority. Cheers, Michal On 11 January 2017 at 09:59, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Steven Dake (stdake)'s message of 2017-01-11 14:50:31 +: >> Thierry, >> >> I am not a big fan of the separate gerrit teams we have instituted inside >> the Kolla project. I always believed we should have one core reviewer team >> responsible for all deliverables to avoid not just the appearance but the >> reality that each team would fragment the overall community of people >> working on Kolla containers and deployment tools. This is yet another reason >> I didn’t want to split the repositories into separate deliverables in the >> first place – since it further fragments the community working on Kolla >> deliverables. >> >> When we made our original mission statement, I originally wanted it scoped >> around just Ansible and Docker. Fortunately, the core review team at the >> time made it much more general and broad before we joined the big tent. Our >> mis
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
I’m not entirely sure how the two relate, but anyone from Kolla can respond. Brandon B. Jozsa On January 11, 2017 at 2:49:07 PM, Steven Dake (stdake) (std...@cisco.com<mailto:std...@cisco.com>) wrote: Brandon, Your question is a mix of political and technical aspects that I am not permitted to answer until Monday because of my parsing of this email from Mark Collier: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2017-January/002446.html I will answer you Monday after the individual board of directors elections conclude. Regards -steve From: "Brandon B. Jozsa" Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 12:36 PM To: "Britt Houser (bhouser)" , "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables To your point Steve, then I’d image that Kolla would have no objection to the introduction of other Openstack-namespace projects that provide alternative image formats, integration choices, or orchestration variances for those in the larger community who do not want to use Kolla images. All of the Kolla-x projects point to this one source of truth in the end. This results in large to the many projects falling under the Kolla umbrella: Kolla, Kolla-Mesos, Kolla-Ansible, Kolla-Kubernetes, Kolla-Salt, and I’d assume whatever else wants to consume Kolla, if things continue as they are. My immediate ask is "what are the potential negative impacts to Kolla having so many projects under one mission”: fragmentation of goals, misunderstanding of mission, increased developer debt across each inter-twined project (cross-repo commits and reviews), complex gating requirements? #kolla has been a place of spirited debate with the recent addition of Kolla-Kubernetes, and I think some of this is the result of the problems I’m alluding to. It’s very difficult to preserve what Kolla is at it’s core, and in turn preserve the benefits of something like Kubernetes which has a Runtime Interface abstraction model. It’s a tough sell for the larger Openstack community, and this is a critical time for Openstack and CNCF interoperability; would you not agree? I’m failing to see the benefits you mention outweighing what others might see as potential pitfalls. My viewpoint is not news to those in Kolla. I’ve expressed this in Kolla already, and this is why I’m disappointed when Kolla-Kuberntes drops Secs in favor of quicker ad-hoc IRC architecturally-focused discussions. So my question now becomes; "How is Kolla addressing these issues, and what has Kolla been doing with the assistance of the Openstack Foundation to gain the confidence of those who are watching Kolla and looking for that next cool container project”? Brandon B. Jozsa On January 11, 2017 at 1:46:13 PM, Britt Houser (bhouser) (bhou...@cisco.com<mailto:bhou...@cisco.com>) wrote: My sentiments exactly Michal. We’ll get there, but let’s not jump the gun quite yet. On 1/11/17, 1:38 PM, "Michał Jastrzębski" wrote: So from my point of view, while I understand why project separation makes sense in the long run, I will argue that at this moment it will be hurtful for the project. Our community is still fairly integrated, and I'd love to keep it this way a while longer. We haven't yet fully cleaned up mess that split of kolla-ansible caused (documentation and whatnot). Having small revolution like that again is something that would greatly hinder our ability to deliver valuable project, and I think for now that should be our priority. To me, at least before we will have more than one prod-ready deployment tool, separation of projects would be bad. I think project separation should be a process instead of revolution, and we already started this process by separating kolla-ansible repo and core team. I'd be happy to discuss how to pave road for full project separation without causing pain for operators, users and developers, as to me their best interest should take priority. Cheers, Michal On 11 January 2017 at 09:59, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Steven Dake (stdake)'s message of 2017-01-11 14:50:31 +: >> Thierry, >> >> I am not a big fan of the separate gerrit teams we have instituted inside >> the Kolla project. I always believed we should have one core reviewer team >> responsible for all deliverables to avoid not just the appearance but the >> reality that each team would fragment the overall community of people >> working on Kolla containers and deployment tools. This is yet another reason >> I didn’t want to split the repositories into separate deliverables in the >> first place – since it further fragments the community working on Kolla >> deliverables. >> >> When we made our original mission statement, I
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Sure – you asked me and I thought you wanted an answer from me (which fits under the do not use OpenStack properties (i.e. this mailing list) for promotion of candidates email that Mark sent out). Others are able to answer in the broader Kolla community. Regards -steve From: "Brandon B. Jozsa" Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 1:01 PM To: "Britt Houser (bhouser)" , "Steven Dake (stdake)" , "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables I’m not entirely sure how the two relate, but anyone from Kolla can respond. Brandon B. Jozsa On January 11, 2017 at 2:49:07 PM, Steven Dake (stdake) (std...@cisco.com<mailto:std...@cisco.com>) wrote: Brandon, Your question is a mix of political and technical aspects that I am not permitted to answer until Monday because of my parsing of this email from Mark Collier: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2017-January/002446.html I will answer you Monday after the individual board of directors elections conclude. Regards -steve From: "Brandon B. Jozsa" Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 12:36 PM To: "Britt Houser (bhouser)" , "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables To your point Steve, then I’d image that Kolla would have no objection to the introduction of other Openstack-namespace projects that provide alternative image formats, integration choices, or orchestration variances for those in the larger community who do not want to use Kolla images. All of the Kolla-x projects point to this one source of truth in the end. This results in large to the many projects falling under the Kolla umbrella: Kolla, Kolla-Mesos, Kolla-Ansible, Kolla-Kubernetes, Kolla-Salt, and I’d assume whatever else wants to consume Kolla, if things continue as they are. My immediate ask is "what are the potential negative impacts to Kolla having so many projects under one mission”: fragmentation of goals, misunderstanding of mission, increased developer debt across each inter-twined project (cross-repo commits and reviews), complex gating requirements? #kolla has been a place of spirited debate with the recent addition of Kolla-Kubernetes, and I think some of this is the result of the problems I’m alluding to. It’s very difficult to preserve what Kolla is at it’s core, and in turn preserve the benefits of something like Kubernetes which has a Runtime Interface abstraction model. It’s a tough sell for the larger Openstack community, and this is a critical time for Openstack and CNCF interoperability; would you not agree? I’m failing to see the benefits you mention outweighing what others might see as potential pitfalls. My viewpoint is not news to those in Kolla. I’ve expressed this in Kolla already, and this is why I’m disappointed when Kolla-Kuberntes drops Secs in favor of quicker ad-hoc IRC architecturally-focused discussions. So my question now becomes; "How is Kolla addressing these issues, and what has Kolla been doing with the assistance of the Openstack Foundation to gain the confidence of those who are watching Kolla and looking for that next cool container project”? Brandon B. Jozsa On January 11, 2017 at 1:46:13 PM, Britt Houser (bhouser) (bhou...@cisco.com<mailto:bhou...@cisco.com>) wrote: My sentiments exactly Michal. We’ll get there, but let’s not jump the gun quite yet. On 1/11/17, 1:38 PM, "Michał Jastrzębski" wrote: So from my point of view, while I understand why project separation makes sense in the long run, I will argue that at this moment it will be hurtful for the project. Our community is still fairly integrated, and I'd love to keep it this way a while longer. We haven't yet fully cleaned up mess that split of kolla-ansible caused (documentation and whatnot). Having small revolution like that again is something that would greatly hinder our ability to deliver valuable project, and I think for now that should be our priority. To me, at least before we will have more than one prod-ready deployment tool, separation of projects would be bad. I think project separation should be a process instead of revolution, and we already started this process by separating kolla-ansible repo and core team. I'd be happy to discuss how to pave road for full project separation without causing pain for operators, users and developers, as to me their best interest should take priority. Cheers, Michal On 11 January 2017 at 09:59, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Steven Dake (stdake)'s message of 2017-01-11 14:50:31 +: >> Thierry, >> >> I am not a big fan of the separate gerrit teams we have instituted inside >> the K
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Hey Brandon, So couple comments to your mail. Kolla at it's core is community which took on preparing deployment of openstack using docker containers. This same community now is working with both ansible and k8s as means to deploy these containers. So far we're preserving that single community to allow full cooperation and let's be honest, we still learn and experiment, especially in k8s space. As for k8s being abstraction layer to container runtime, it indeed is, but that's only part of the story. Container runtime is less important than it's ABI for k8s deployment mechanism. With OCI container, what we today have as docker containers can (don't know really, never tested) be compatible with RKT, maybe with a bit of work. What's more important is how to interact with these containers. Kolla honed our containers ABI over multiple releases and we are still working on it. While k8s can run multiple container formats, how do you interact with them depends on how containers are built. While I can clearly see benefit of having multi-runtime mechanism like that, all containers should follow same ABI for deployment code to consume, and as far as I know (please, correct me if I'm wrong), there is no alternative to Kolla's images that would be compatible with Kolla ABI. So question about multiple runtimes becomes hypothetical until one these appear. If there is community that is working on alternative image format, I'd love to talk to them so we can try to keep our ABIs compatible so deployment projects like one you describe can have this choice too. I'd go further still, if such project would appear (alternative container format), I'd be happy to discuss kolla-ansible and kolla-k8s being able to consume it too! Just...nobody did that, doing that or plant that as far as I know. Cheers, Michal On 11 January 2017 at 12:09, Steven Dake (stdake) wrote: > Sure – you asked me and I thought you wanted an answer from me (which fits > under the do not use OpenStack properties (i.e. this mailing list) for > promotion of candidates email that Mark sent out). > > > > Others are able to answer in the broader Kolla community. > > > > Regards > > -steve > > > > *From: *"Brandon B. Jozsa" > *Date: *Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 1:01 PM > *To: *"Britt Houser (bhouser)" , "Steven Dake > (stdake)" , "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not > for usage questions)" > > *Subject: *Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > > > > > I’m not entirely sure how the two relate, but anyone from Kolla can > respond. > > > > Brandon B. Jozsa > > > > On January 11, 2017 at 2:49:07 PM, Steven Dake (stdake) (std...@cisco.com) > wrote: > > Brandon, > > > > Your question is a mix of political and technical aspects that I am not > permitted to answer until Monday because of my parsing of this email from > Mark Collier: > > > > http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2017-January/002446.html > > > > I will answer you Monday after the individual board of directors elections > conclude. > > > > Regards > > -steve > > > > > > *From: *"Brandon B. Jozsa" > *Reply-To: *"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage > questions)" > *Date: *Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 12:36 PM > *To: *"Britt Houser (bhouser)" , "OpenStack > Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" openstack.org> > *Subject: *Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables > > > > To your point Steve, then I’d image that Kolla would have no objection to > the introduction of other Openstack-namespace projects that provide > alternative image formats, integration choices, or orchestration variances > for those in the larger community who do not want to use Kolla images. All > of the Kolla-x projects point to this one source of truth in the end. This > results in large to the many projects falling under the Kolla umbrella: > Kolla, Kolla-Mesos, Kolla-Ansible, Kolla-Kubernetes, Kolla-Salt, and I’d > assume whatever else wants to consume Kolla, if things continue as they are. > > > > My immediate ask is "what are the potential negative impacts to Kolla > having so many projects under one mission”: fragmentation of goals, > misunderstanding of mission, increased developer debt across each > inter-twined project (cross-repo commits and reviews), complex gating > requirements? #kolla has been a place of spirited debate with the recent > addition of Kolla-Kubernetes, and I think some of this is the result of the > problems I’m alluding to. It’s very difficult to preserve what Kolla is at > it’s core, and in turn
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > So from my point of view, while I understand why project separation > makes sense in the long run, I will argue that at this moment it will > be hurtful for the project. Our community is still fairly integrated, > and I'd love to keep it this way a while longer. We haven't yet fully > cleaned up mess that split of kolla-ansible caused (documentation and > whatnot). Having small revolution like that again is something that > would greatly hinder our ability to deliver valuable project, and I > think for now that should be our priority. FWIW my email was not meant as an immediate request to split Kolla because its internal structure goes against the OpenStack project structure. In particular as long as the Kolla subteams are fine operating under a single umbrella and being seen as a single "team", there is no need to change that, that would be a distraction. I just wanted to explain that a lot of the organizational problems the Kolla team is going through are caused by this "umbrella" model and that we designed the current OpenStack project structure precisely to avoid them. I also don't want to discourage any Kolla subteam (or future project leveraging Kolla images) which feels like it would operate better as a separate project team to file for official inclusion. Cheers! -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables
Thierry, Cool thanks for the leeway here ☺ I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentiment. If an existing Kolla sub-team or an existing project (e.g. the Puppet team) in OpenStack or a new project wants to use Kolla images and feels they would operate more effectively without the structure Kolla has in place, I personally as a core reviewer don’t want to limit that type of activity as long as it fits within the TC’s governance rules. As a core reviewer, I do want to keep what deliverables we currently have in place as splitting out deliverables is super disruptive to the Kolla project. Over 60% of the Ocata cycle has been spent just splitting kolla-ansible into its own deliverable – meaning we are way behind on maintenance and development of our existing deliverables. Like all things in life, my opinion is subject to change in the future. Regards -steve -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez Organization: OpenStack Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" Date: Thursday, January 12, 2017 at 6:25 AM To: "openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org" Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][kolla] Adding new deliverables Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > So from my point of view, while I understand why project separation > makes sense in the long run, I will argue that at this moment it will > be hurtful for the project. Our community is still fairly integrated, > and I'd love to keep it this way a while longer. We haven't yet fully > cleaned up mess that split of kolla-ansible caused (documentation and > whatnot). Having small revolution like that again is something that > would greatly hinder our ability to deliver valuable project, and I > think for now that should be our priority. FWIW my email was not meant as an immediate request to split Kolla because its internal structure goes against the OpenStack project structure. In particular as long as the Kolla subteams are fine operating under a single umbrella and being seen as a single "team", there is no need to change that, that would be a distraction. I just wanted to explain that a lot of the organizational problems the Kolla team is going through are caused by this "umbrella" model and that we designed the current OpenStack project structure precisely to avoid them. I also don't want to discourage any Kolla subteam (or future project leveraging Kolla images) which feels like it would operate better as a separate project team to file for official inclusion. Cheers! -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev