Re: [Openstack-operators] [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On Fri, 2018-08-31 at 10:03 +1000, Tony Breeds wrote: > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 09:12:57PM +, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > > On 2018-08-31 01:13:58 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote: > > [...] > > > What needs to be done for this is full topic categories support > > > under `options` page so people get to filter emails properly. > > > > [...] > > > > Unfortunately, topic filtering is one of the MM2 features the > > Mailman community decided nobody used (or at least not enough to > > warrant preserving it in MM3). I do think we need to be consistent > > about tagging subjects to make client-side filtering more effective > > for people who want that, but if we _do_ want to be able to upgrade > > we shouldn't continue to rely on server-side filtering support in > > Mailman unless we can somehow work with them to help in > > reimplementing it. > > The suggestion is to implement it as a 3rd party plugin or work with the > mm community to implement: > https://wiki.mailman.psf.io/DEV/Dynamic%20Sublists > > So if we decide we really want that in mm3 we have options. > > Yours Tony. I've tinked with mailman 3 before so I could probably take a shot at this over the next few week(end)s; however, I've no idea how this feature is supposed to work. Any chance an admin of the current list could send me a couple of screenshots of the feature in mailman 2 along with a brief description of the feature? Alternatively, maybe we could upload them to the wiki page Tony linked above or, better yet, to the technical details page for same: https://wiki.mailman.psf.io/DEV/Brief%20Technical%20Details Cheers, Stephen ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 09:12:57PM +, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > On 2018-08-31 01:13:58 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote: > [...] > > What needs to be done for this is full topic categories support > > under `options` page so people get to filter emails properly. > [...] > > Unfortunately, topic filtering is one of the MM2 features the > Mailman community decided nobody used (or at least not enough to > warrant preserving it in MM3). I do think we need to be consistent > about tagging subjects to make client-side filtering more effective > for people who want that, but if we _do_ want to be able to upgrade > we shouldn't continue to rely on server-side filtering support in > Mailman unless we can somehow work with them to help in > reimplementing it. The suggestion is to implement it as a 3rd party plugin or work with the mm community to implement: https://wiki.mailman.psf.io/DEV/Dynamic%20Sublists So if we decide we really want that in mm3 we have options. Yours Tony. signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 2018-08-31 01:13:58 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote: [...] > What needs to be done for this is full topic categories support > under `options` page so people get to filter emails properly. [...] Unfortunately, topic filtering is one of the MM2 features the Mailman community decided nobody used (or at least not enough to warrant preserving it in MM3). I do think we need to be consistent about tagging subjects to make client-side filtering more effective for people who want that, but if we _do_ want to be able to upgrade we shouldn't continue to rely on server-side filtering support in Mailman unless we can somehow work with them to help in reimplementing it. -- Jeremy Stanley signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
I also propose that we merge the interop-wg mailing list also, as the volume on that list is small but topics posted to it are of general interest to the community. Chris Hoge (Interop WG Secretary, amongst other things) > On Aug 30, 2018, at 10:03 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > > The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators > mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of > cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to > reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to > one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of > subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to > bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together > into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps > coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing > lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver > at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides: > > 1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different > place than many of the people who have the answers to those > questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML > title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users > deeper). > > 2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order > of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other > three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap > between them; combining those lists would have been a better > solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be. > > 3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is > cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics > that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which > one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the > fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from > participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which > they're subscribed, > > 4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of > the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if > not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of > the various cross-posts if these lists were combined. > > The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list > to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other > four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its > software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is > changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates, > distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking > much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet > (we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average, > after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to > tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other > participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and > so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the > combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]). > None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of > continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try > to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your > questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera. > > As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about > experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new > features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this > easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in > light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above > hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version > we're currently using. > > Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this > message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;) > > [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community > [2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics > -- > Jeremy Stanley > ___ > openstack-sigs mailing list > openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-sigs ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
Re: [Openstack-operators] [Openstack-sigs] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
Excerpts from Jeremy Stanley's message of 2018-08-30 17:03:50 +: > The openstack, openstack-dev, openstack-sigs and openstack-operators > mailing lists on lists.openstack.org see an increasing amount of > cross-posting and thread fragmentation as conversants attempt to > reach various corners of our community with topics of interest to > one or more (and sometimes all) of those overlapping groups of > subscribers. For some time we've been discussing and trying ways to > bring our developers, distributors, operators and end users together > into a less isolated, more cohesive community. An option which keeps > coming up is to combine these different but overlapping mailing > lists into one single discussion list. As we covered[1] in Vancouver > at the last Forum there are a lot of potential up-sides: > > 1. People with questions are no longer asking them in a different > place than many of the people who have the answers to those > questions (the "not for usage questions" in the openstack-dev ML > title only serves to drive the wedge between developers and users > deeper). > > 2. The openstack-sigs mailing list hasn't seem much uptake (an order > of magnitude fewer subscribers and posts) compared to the other > three lists, yet it was intended to bridge the communication gap > between them; combining those lists would have been a better > solution to the problem than adding yet another turned out to be. > > 3. At least one out of every ten messages to any of these lists is > cross-posted to one or more of the others, because we have topics > that span across these divided groups yet nobody is quite sure which > one is the best venue for them; combining would eliminate the > fragmented/duplicative/divergent discussion which results from > participants following up on the different subsets of lists to which > they're subscribed, > > 4. Half of the people who are actively posting to at least one of > the four lists subscribe to two or more, and a quarter to three if > not all four; they would no longer be receiving multiple copies of > the various cross-posts if these lists were combined. > > The proposal is simple: create a new openstack-discuss mailing list > to cover all the above sorts of discussion and stop using the other > four. As the OpenStack ecosystem continues to mature and its > software and services stabilize, the nature of our discourse is > changing (becoming increasingly focused with fewer heated debates, > distilling to a more manageable volume), so this option is looking > much more attractive than in the past. That's not to say it's quiet > (we're looking at roughly 40 messages a day across them on average, > after deduplicating the cross-posts), but we've grown accustomed to > tagging the subjects of these messages to make it easier for other > participants to quickly filter topics which are relevant to them and > so would want a good set of guidelines on how to do so for the > combined list (a suggested set is already being brainstormed[2]). > None of this is set in stone of course, and I expect a lot of > continued discussion across these lists (oh, the irony) while we try > to settle on a plan, so definitely please follow up with your > questions, concerns, ideas, et cetera. > > As an aside, some of you have probably also seen me talking about > experiments I've been doing with Mailman 3... I'm hoping new > features in its Hyperkitty and Postorius WebUIs make some of this > easier or more accessible to casual participants (particularly in > light of the combined list scenario), but none of the plan above > hinges on MM3 and should be entirely doable with the MM2 version > we're currently using. > > Also, in case you were wondering, no the irony of cross-posting this > message to four mailing lists is not lost on me. ;) > > [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-devs-one-community > [2] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-openstack-ml-topics I fully support the idea of merging the lists. Doug ___ OpenStack-operators mailing list OpenStack-operators@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators
