Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 11:29 +0100, Ludwig Nussel wrote: JP Rosevear wrote: One good use case we've seen with customers is that they don't want to give out the root password because that would enable users to do anything they want like update packages. What specific part of printer configuration should a user be able to do without authentication? Demanding that users must be able to configure printers without knowing the root password is too coarse grained. AFAICS the YaST2 printer module for example offers to reconfigure the firewall and to install additional packages when needed also as part of printer configuration. Adding printers. You can get large setups with dozens or hundreds of printers. -JP -- JP Rosevear [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell, Inc. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Heads up for 2.6.21
Am Freitag 02 März 2007 schrieb Sid Boyce: On openSUSE 10.2 (KDE-3.5.5) and 10.3 Alpha (KDE-3.5.6), I've encountered a problem with vanilla 2.6.21-rc1 up to 2.6.21-rc2-git1. KDE is setup not to require a password to unlock the screen, but it asks for password. When given the password, it unlocks, but kwin, kicker, klauncher and may be other kdeinit stuff have died with no errors reported. Doing straces do not show errors. If I start those 3 from the command line, everything comes back except the desktop icons and the next lock will repeat the same sequence. The workaround I've found is to move kdesktop_lock out of /opt/kde3/bin, everything comes back intact when a key is pressed or the mouse is moved after the screen is blanked. If the kernel is affecting this, you should get OOM errors in /var/log/messages Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
JP Rosevear wrote: On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 11:29 +0100, Ludwig Nussel wrote: JP Rosevear wrote: One good use case we've seen with customers is that they don't want to give out the root password because that would enable users to do anything they want like update packages. What specific part of printer configuration should a user be able to do without authentication? Demanding that users must be able to configure printers without knowing the root password is too coarse grained. AFAICS the YaST2 printer module for example offers to reconfigure the firewall and to install additional packages when needed also as part of printer configuration. Adding printers. You can get large setups with dozens or hundreds of printers. Are you talking about setups where you plug in your shiny new USB printer and want it to just work or are you talking about network printers? I was assuming you were talking about the former but I somehow doubt that hundreds of printers need to be configured in that scenario ;-) cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ SUSE Labs V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] [RFC] autofs5
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Matthias Koenig schreef: Hi, I would like to update to autofs5. autofs5 is a major rewrite of autofs4 and while there might still be some problems I hope it is stable enough. Fedora is already shipping this. We really should have it in Code 11, so I want this to be tested in openSUSE 10.3. Most of the new features enhance the functionality to be more compliant with industry standard. For testing purposes I already provide packages for factory and 10.2 in the buildservice: http://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=home%3Amakoenig Here is a list of changes: Differences v4 vs. v5 - - Master map is now read and parsed by the `automount' daemon - The master map default is auto.master and nsswitch is used to locate it. The line +auto.master has been added to the default installed /etc/auto.master to ensure that those using NIS will still find their master map. This is in line with other industry automount implementations. - The `automount' daemon is now a multi-threaded application - `autofs' filesystem mounts only appear in /proc/mounts and not /etc/mtab. - `autofs' version 5.0.0 will refuse to run if it cannot find an autofs4 kernel module that supports protocol version 5.00 or above. - mount options present in the master map are now overridden by mount options in map entries instead of being accumulated. This behaviour is in line with other industry automount implementations. New features in v5 -- - improved direct mount map support - `+' map inclusion - added nsswitch map source support - rewrote multi-mount map code - added LDAP encryption and authentication support - improved shutdown and restart - a hosts map module has been added Before going to factory, any comments on this update? Matthias Yeah, sound good! - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 release 45.2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6Bg+X5/X5X6LpDgRAjUOAKCIBIdbvSPXEgeS6O7M5p0TyUx+GgCbBhRP OYh7GWi54/KkdBSyKvYicmQ= =kwhk -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2007-03-01 at 11:29 +0100, Ludwig Nussel wrote: What specific part of printer configuration should a user be able to do without authentication? Demanding that users must be able to configure printers without knowing the root password is too coarse grained. AFAICS the YaST2 printer module for example offers to reconfigure the firewall and to install additional packages when needed also as part of printer configuration. Add a new printer, not the main one. I think cups handles that nicely, I don't use Yast to install my printer. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF6BsRtTMYHG2NR9URAn/0AJ0bbK6EPBufUAKG330lf70P3RcH/QCfRIbn d/YSB1Fj4L+ilFJK+XTKo2Q= =szXH -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Heads up for 2.6.21
Greg KH wrote: On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 04:41:08AM +, Sid Boyce wrote: On openSUSE 10.2 (KDE-3.5.5) and 10.3 Alpha (KDE-3.5.6), I've encountered a problem with vanilla 2.6.21-rc1 up to 2.6.21-rc2-git1. KDE is setup not to require a password to unlock the screen, but it asks for password. When given the password, it unlocks, but kwin, kicker, klauncher and may be other kdeinit stuff have died with no errors reported. Doing straces do not show errors. If I start those 3 from the command line, everything comes back except the desktop icons and the next lock will repeat the same sequence. The workaround I've found is to move kdesktop_lock out of /opt/kde3/bin, everything comes back intact when a key is pressed or the mouse is moved after the screen is blanked. NOTE, this is just a heads up, so no action is expected. Note, the kernel should not have anything to do with this... But if you think it does, please file a bug at bugzilla.kernel.org and let the kernel developers know on the linux-kernel list, so that it can get fixed. thanks, greg k-h I've posted this problem to the kernel mailing list and Avi Kivity has been responding. That's precisely the problem, determining whether it's a kernel or KDE bug. With up to 2.6.20 there isn't a problem, it's only reared its head at 2.6.21-rc1 on 10.2 x86_64 and 10.3 Alpha x86 where these kdeinit functions die without posting any errors in log files or in strace and they die only when kdesktop_lock is run. Not allowing kdesktop_lock to run, everything is normal. Different versions of openSUSE distros and KDE but same kernel versions. I shall build and test 2.6.21-rc2-git2 on kubuntu 6.10 to see if I get the same errors. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2007-03-01 at 12:33 +0100, Klaus Singvogel wrote: ... But if not, then we might replace the hal backend by _any_ backend, and no need to use no longer developed tools (hal backend) is needed. Instead we can use our own mechanism here, even YaST, as soon as YaST supports installation of printers without any need of user feedback (full automatism). I would object to something configuring printers without my knowledge, automatically. One of the good points of linux is that it is stable, in the sense that once we configure something it stays put and we don't have to touch it ever again. Too many automatisms and that will break. At least, let yast ask whether we want automatic configuration of printers or not. If we can get to zeroconfig printing we could optionally just remove a printer from cups when its unplugged. A little more unclear how useful it would be. I want to point out the optionally here. CUPS offers the possibility of spooling print jobs, when the communication to a printer fails (or the admin wishes so). Sure, Enterprise Servers admins are more interested in this spooling feature than home users. So we should offer a configuration for both kinds of customers. I'm thinking of storing this global configuration data somewhere below /etc/sysconfig. As a home user, I'm very happy with cups spooling while the printer is disconnected. I print, I notice that it is not actually printing, then I look at it and power it on, without having to repeat the print job, and no pesky pop-ups. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF6CHbtTMYHG2NR9URAqzJAJ46kzOa3iaYL42bwpHC1BcODPpM9ACaAuas Xt7xe2nZHKJeNcui1iaVFyw= =nqNB -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2007-03-01 13:35 +0100, M9 wrote: -BEGIN PGP MESSAGE- Charset: ISO-8859-15 Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org hQIOA/E8+Y9nFZR0EAf/YeEfYvt2amLhhj7E4ni/t/yTIWnkMr0o1DswSusOs7a2 n6scwb9xCRmMj43xJBVbcO0vpVviJX/7D1u6wz9A1C3ibrfmCT4qESSwrmpD2cyv Would you care to decrypt, please? Unless it is a secret, of course :-P - -- Cheers, Carlos E.R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF6CamtTMYHG2NR9URAokRAJ92yC8vkI9+/oF+nMIhjvkrN3loJQCdGXpH OzeKUG5iAoO1OQYogTOqxpw= =LBhH -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Heads up for 2.6.21
Stephan Kulow wrote: Am Freitag 02 März 2007 schrieb Sid Boyce: On openSUSE 10.2 (KDE-3.5.5) and 10.3 Alpha (KDE-3.5.6), I've encountered a problem with vanilla 2.6.21-rc1 up to 2.6.21-rc2-git1. KDE is setup not to require a password to unlock the screen, but it asks for password. When given the password, it unlocks, but kwin, kicker, klauncher and may be other kdeinit stuff have died with no errors reported. Doing straces do not show errors. If I start those 3 from the command line, everything comes back except the desktop icons and the next lock will repeat the same sequence. The workaround I've found is to move kdesktop_lock out of /opt/kde3/bin, everything comes back intact when a key is pressed or the mouse is moved after the screen is blanked. If the kernel is affecting this, you should get OOM errors in /var/log/messages Greetings, Stephan Nothing that says that kdeinit stuff has died, no out-of-memory errors either. 2.6.2-rc2-git2 kernel building on a P-II/333/96M/2M video with Kubuntu-6.10, shall see if I get the same on it. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
Carlos E. R. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2007-03-01 13:35 +0100, M9 wrote: -BEGIN PGP MESSAGE- Charset: ISO-8859-15 Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org hQIOA/E8+Y9nFZR0EAf/YeEfYvt2amLhhj7E4ni/t/yTIWnkMr0o1DswSusOs7a2 n6scwb9xCRmMj43xJBVbcO0vpVviJX/7D1u6wz9A1C3ibrfmCT4qESSwrmpD2cyv Would you care to decrypt, please? Unless it is a secret, of course :-P - -- Cheers, Carlos E.R. All swear words, no deleted expletives, so encrytion saves him from prosecution. Come in M9. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sid Boyce schreef: Carlos E. R. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2007-03-01 13:35 +0100, M9 wrote: -BEGIN PGP MESSAGE- Charset: ISO-8859-15 Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org hQIOA/E8+Y9nFZR0EAf/YeEfYvt2amLhhj7E4ni/t/yTIWnkMr0o1DswSusOs7a2 n6scwb9xCRmMj43xJBVbcO0vpVviJX/7D1u6wz9A1C3ibrfmCT4qESSwrmpD2cyv Would you care to decrypt, please? Unless it is a secret, of course :-P - -- Cheers, Carlos E.R. All swear words, no deleted expletives, so encrytion saves him from prosecution. Come in M9. Regards Sid. Thought so it was me again... Was testing 10.3A0+, on 586, and as i upgraded the systen from 10.2RCfinal trough the net, also thinderbird got upgraded, with a new pgp module, which is (?) incompatible with the old one.. Can not even read my own posts on the other machines...(lol) And the old module can not import the keys, so, i just switched it off. ( after discovering that it was impossible to read) Btw. did anyone got the key imported? - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 release 45.2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6FPCX5/X5X6LpDgRAs16AJ9CGFBa2q+9WDKZcLKQWrzEeoC/PQCgm6Js NS0h2d3c0d8XVA4tzZ9q7CA= =ov6t -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
* M9. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [03-02-07 11:44]: [...] Btw. did anyone got the key imported? For an open mailing list??? You waste my time! -- Patrick ShanahanRegistered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org@ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2007-03-02 at 17:41 +0100, M9. wrote: Thought so it was me again... Was testing 10.3A0+, on 586, and as i upgraded the systen from 10.2RCfinal trough the net, also thinderbird got upgraded, with a new pgp module, which is (?) incompatible with the old one.. Can not even read my own posts on the other machines...(lol) And the old module can not import the keys, so, i just switched it off. ( after discovering that it was impossible to read) Btw. did anyone got the key imported? Yes, but from the previous email: | gpg: Signature made Thu 01 Mar 2007 11:52:51 AM CET using DSA key ID 7E8BA438 | gpg: Good signature from Monkey 9 [EMAIL PROTECTED] which is the same signature you use today: gpg: Signature made Fri 02 Mar 2007 05:41:38 PM CET using DSA key ID 7E8BA438 gpg: Good signature from Monkey 9 [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you mean the key for the encrypted message, no obviously not. Only the recipient of the encrypted message can read it - not even you, unless you also encrypted to yourself. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF6HQ0tTMYHG2NR9URAmruAJ9mVxVbrASOEQp7PPUu7bgCYsLCXwCfRRlZ w0IvTC5vu0l1ydh0Yu6v2bI= =S7Mj -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2007-03-02 at 13:55 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote: Btw. did anyone got the key imported? For an open mailing list??? You waste my time! Precisely for an open mail list! You haven't been hit by an impersonating trickster on a list, no? I was, that why I always sign. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF6H+ItTMYHG2NR9URAqcUAKCVJlkBmW8q8WL3aVHDaYU9+C+GZgCfUTLy 4MxO1VGxo0fh/JY0ipixG8w= =KOwm -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Patrick Shanahan schreef: * M9. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [03-02-07 11:44]: [...] Btw. did anyone got the key imported? For an open mailing list??? You waste my time! Well fuck you than... ;-) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 release 45.2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6IDqX5/X5X6LpDgRAtaZAKDIsJMZLvmHqSyLGpqrexohcQ6/6wCeKmkO QjtZvJE6MAv5oEQ5zn1uCFE= =CQn4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Carlos E. R. schreef: The Friday 2007-03-02 at 17:41 +0100, M9. wrote: Btw. did anyone got the key imported? Yes, but from the previous email: | gpg: Signature made Thu 01 Mar 2007 11:52:51 AM CET using DSA key ID 7E8BA438 | gpg: Good signature from Monkey 9 [EMAIL PROTECTED] which is the same signature you use today: gpg: Signature made Fri 02 Mar 2007 05:41:38 PM CET using DSA key ID 7E8BA438 gpg: Good signature from Monkey 9 [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you mean the key for the encrypted message, no obviously not. Only the recipient of the encrypted message can read it - not even you, unless you also encrypted to yourself. These mails come from different machines... The mail sent from the 32bits, SuSE103A0+ i can not read on my 64bits, 102Final.. And i imported the key, but am not able to use it. Not yet have the time to look into it.. This key is also at the keyservers - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 release 45.2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6IJnX5/X5X6LpDgRAqRqAKCnKgMJQyFcY0o+V1RE6riaMwQmEQCgqYz2 MQAqhFSvp9U+CUD0j8f1Gzk= =Hl6q -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
After quite a long time, I decided to do some considerations on the status of OpenSUSE as a community and as a distribution, starting from everyday experience. I'll start from some bug reports, which affects me directly and which have been waiting for a solution for a long time since the release of 10.2 final. They're only examples, you can find many others on bugzilla. * main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 * Banshee doesn't recognize ipod https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215301 * yast is still unable to list printers https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 * Gimp can't print: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=230887 which sends to bug #226710, which is not accessible. The main menu bug is a blocker and it's really strange no-one in the development team noticed it during the development stage. A patch was recently released on bugzilla, but it only partially solves the problem for some user and does nothing for others, which indicates the issue is quite serious. The helix-banshee bug is really a mystery. It's there since beta stage, but no solution is coming. It seems that recompiling a package is impossible at SuSE. The yast-printer bug seems solved, but I still can't see my network printers in yast. I've just reopened the bug. The gimp problem was marked as duplicate of a FIXED bug, but this one links to an inaccessible report. In my opinion these issues are serious and the lack of consideration they receive is very disappointing considering that solutions were promised in many occasions, and they're not provided in an acceptable time (~3 months after the official release). The bugzilla is full of other examples of problems which could be easily solved in a short time, but never received a comment. There are many easily fixable bugs with many comments and no solution. OpenSUSE, in the opinion of most users, is the mean through which users know SUSE, evaluate it and start using it. There are many users who approached to SUSE through OpenSUSE to evaluate the enterprise line too and to see how the team/community works. I don't think OpenSUSE is giving a good image of itself neither as a distribution nor as a team/community. The quality of the distribution is lower then in the past due to the choice to release too quickly and the lack of testing. The issue of testing was addressed by adding a beta release for 10.3, but I don't think the team should expect significant improvements from testing provided by users if * a pre-testing is not done in-house. * no guidelines are given to community testers. * no consideration is given to their reports. Especially the pre-testing is important in my opinion, because community users often don't have enough experience and knowledge, or they don't test the distribution for enough time. Guidelines would help us a lot to look for problems in specific areas and to test things more carefully Of course all this makes sense only if reports will be considered in time and seriously, hopefully before release ;-) A final comment, to conclude this already long e-mail, is about the GNOME-KDE question (seriously, for once). Gnome users (not only me, there are a few, but there are) are quite bored to see GNOME considered the de-facto second choice of the distribution because it is less tested than KDE and less maintained. Now, I understand many developers at SUSE love KDE and that SUSE was a KDE based distribution. But in the past at least it was coherent: KDE was the default and SUSE was really optimised for KDE. It was so evident that GNOME appeared out of place, and it was OK. A user who chose SUSE knew it was a KDE distribution. Today SUSE has no defaults, so a user thinks he can choose what he likes more, but it's not that way. In openSUSE 10.2 it is so evident a lot of the efforts were put in creating a KDE which is better than GNOME. Examples are many: from the new kickoff menu, which was developed faster than the gnome main-menu and has none of the issues of the gnome one, to the opensuse-updater, which has no equivalent in GNOME (I know one is coming for 10.3). Both DE should be considered as alternatives, not as rivals. I do myself this mistake, I know. But it's really annoying to read Use KDE or Use a KDE app when a user asks for help about GNOME. Moreover GNOME is the default on SLED, and having a low quality GNOME on openSUSE doesn't help to give a good image to potential customers. If things are going to stay as they are at the moment, I would really prefer a strong but clear decision to make openSUSE again a KDE based distribution instead of having a two-DE distribution only in appearance. Sorry for the long message. Regards, Alberto - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Op vrijdag 2 maart 2007 22:52, schreef Alberto Passalacqua: * main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 This bug number is incorrect. What is the right one? * Banshee doesn't recognize ipod https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215301 * yast is still unable to list printers https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 -- Richard Bos We are borrowing the world of our children, It is not inherited from our parents. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Il giorno ven, 02/03/2007 alle 23.05 +0100, Richard Bos ha scritto: Op vrijdag 2 maart 2007 22:52, schreef Alberto Passalacqua: * main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 This bug number is incorrect. What is the right one? I'm sorry. I pasted the wrong link. Here's the right one: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229190 Regards, Alberto - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 10:52:25PM +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: After quite a long time, I decided to do some considerations on the status of OpenSUSE as a community and as a distribution, starting from everyday experience. I'll start from some bug reports, which affects me directly and which have been waiting for a solution for a long time since the release of 10.2 final. They're only examples, you can find many others on bugzilla. * main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 The bugnr is incorrect. * Banshee doesn't recognize ipod https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215301 * yast is still unable to list printers https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 * Gimp can't print: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=230887 which sends to bug #226710, which is not accessible. The main menu bug is a blocker and it's really strange no-one in the development team noticed it during the development stage. A patch was recently released on bugzilla, but it only partially solves the problem for some user and does nothing for others, which indicates the issue is quite serious. It just helps to be insistent. And if there is no reaction, just bring it up on this list. Since you did not list the right number I cannot comment on it. The helix-banshee bug is really a mystery. It's there since beta stage, but no solution is coming. It seems that recompiling a package is impossible at SuSE. It is not. Just the package maintainer (Aaron) seems not be as responsive as probably necessary. The yast-printer bug seems solved, but I still can't see my network printers in yast. I've just reopened the bug. The gimp problem was marked as duplicate of a FIXED bug, but this one links to an inaccessible report. No, it was not. The other bug was referenced only. I just opened it for your viewing pleasure. (It was a security bug and the bugfix was released.) This issue is _SOLVED_. In my opinion these issues are serious and the lack of consideration they receive is very disappointing considering that solutions were promised in many occasions, and they're not provided in an acceptable time (~3 months after the official release). The bugzilla is full of other examples of problems which could be easily solved in a short time, but never received a comment. There are many easily fixable bugs with many comments and no solution. It is also full of examples where we released bugfixes. OpenSUSE, in the opinion of most users, is the mean through which users know SUSE, evaluate it and start using it. There are many users who approached to SUSE through OpenSUSE to evaluate the enterprise line too and to see how the team/community works. I don't think OpenSUSE is giving a good image of itself neither as a distribution nor as a team/community. This is your view. The quality of the distribution is lower then in the past due to the choice to release too quickly and the lack of testing. 8 months is too quickly? Or do you mean the Alpha-Beta-Release turnaround time? The problem is, that we also have business products on the side to do. And you always want the latest and greatest, so long test cycles only cause other frustrations. Btw, openSUSE alpha1 is out _NOW_ while 10.3 will be released in August... So you can already start testing. The issue of testing was addressed by adding a beta release for 10.3, but I don't think the team should expect significant improvements from testing provided by users if * a pre-testing is not done in-house. It is. * no guidelines are given to community testers. Well, we do publish the major changes done. And _you_ know best on what _you_ want to do with openSUSE. We necessarily do not. * no consideration is given to their reports. It is harder for us to publish fixes post-release as it is before-release. Developers focus on the next releases, other products etc. Also releasing fixes via online update requires additional QA effort. Especially the pre-testing is important in my opinion, because community users often don't have enough experience and knowledge, or they don't test the distribution for enough time. Thats because we release early and often now ... A paramount concept within opensource. Guidelines would help us a lot to look for problems in specific areas and to test things more carefully Everything you do should work ;) Of course all this makes sense only if reports will be considered in time and seriously, hopefully before release ;-) A final comment, to conclude this already long e-mail, is about the GNOME-KDE question (seriously, for once). Gnome users (not only me, there are a few, but there are) are quite bored to see GNOME considered the de-facto second choice of the distribution because it is less tested than KDE and less maintained. Now, I understand
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 11:14:27PM +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: Il giorno ven, 02/03/2007 alle 23.05 +0100, Richard Bos ha scritto: Op vrijdag 2 maart 2007 22:52, schreef Alberto Passalacqua: * main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 This bug number is incorrect. What is the right one? I'm sorry. I pasted the wrong link. Here's the right one: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229190 This bug does not even seem to be fully evaluated yet... A bit of insistence of the bug reporter is _always_ helpful, in any opensource scenario. Ciao, Marcus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Il giorno ven, 02/03/2007 alle 23.15 +0100, Marcus Meissner ha scritto: On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 10:52:25PM +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: After quite a long time, I decided to do some considerations on the status of OpenSUSE as a community and as a distribution, starting from everyday experience. I'll start from some bug reports, which affects me directly and which have been waiting for a solution for a long time since the release of 10.2 final. They're only examples, you can find many others on bugzilla. * main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 The bugnr is incorrect. * Banshee doesn't recognize ipod https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215301 * yast is still unable to list printers https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 * Gimp can't print: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=230887 which sends to bug #226710, which is not accessible. The main menu bug is a blocker and it's really strange no-one in the development team noticed it during the development stage. A patch was recently released on bugzilla, but it only partially solves the problem for some user and does nothing for others, which indicates the issue is quite serious. It just helps to be insistent. And if there is no reaction, just bring it up on this list. These and other reports were discussed on IRC with some of you and on this list too, recently ([opensuse-factory] meeting minutes of last dist meeting). The helix-banshee bug is really a mystery. It's there since beta stage, but no solution is coming. It seems that recompiling a package is impossible at SuSE. It is not. Just the package maintainer (Aaron) seems not be as responsive as probably necessary. I'd remove the probably ;-) In my opinion these issues are serious and the lack of consideration they receive is very disappointing considering that solutions were promised in many occasions, and they're not provided in an acceptable time (~3 months after the official release). The bugzilla is full of other examples of problems which could be easily solved in a short time, but never received a comment. There are many easily fixable bugs with many comments and no solution. It is also full of examples where we released bugfixes. Yes and no. Many are security issues, which of course have higher priority. But for a distribution which targets the home desktop user also usability and features issue are important. OpenSUSE, in the opinion of most users, is the mean through which users know SUSE, evaluate it and start using it. There are many users who approached to SUSE through OpenSUSE to evaluate the enterprise line too and to see how the team/community works. I don't think OpenSUSE is giving a good image of itself neither as a distribution nor as a team/community. This is your view. Of course. It's the only thing I can talk about. But it's based on daily experience on discussion boards of users. The quality of the distribution is lower then in the past due to the choice to release too quickly and the lack of testing. 8 months is too quickly? Or do you mean the Alpha-Beta-Release turnaround time? The problem is, that we also have business products on the side to do. And you always want the latest and greatest, so long test cycles only cause other frustrations. Btw, openSUSE alpha1 is out _NOW_ while 10.3 will be released in August... So you can already start testing. 8 months are OK. I meant that if serious bugs are present, the release should be delayed and not released with issues which will affect many users. Especially if these issues are easily fixable. I know and understand you have enterprise products to do and that they have to receive more attention. But there is a general perception that openSUSE is becoming an experimenting lab for the enterprise line. I don't thing it's wrong in principle, but I think that, if true, it should be clarified so to allow the users to decide what to do accordingly. * no guidelines are given to community testers. Well, we do publish the major changes done. And _you_ know best on what _you_ want to do with openSUSE. We necessarily do not. Yes. I meant the most important areas to check should be pointed out in the release notes for example. Something similar was done for some aspects with testing requests. For example, no doubt the gnome updated has to be tested, or the new printer configuration thing proposed on the ML. I think this should help who tries the testing releases to pay more attention and give more precise feedback. Guidelines would help us a lot to look for problems in specific areas and to test things more carefully Everything you do should work ;) Yes but sometime it just _seems_to_work. I tried all the betas, and the menu seemed to work ok! :-(
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 12:33 +0100, Klaus Singvogel wrote: JP Rosevear wrote: [...] 1) Detecting a local USB printer when plugged into the machine and prompting the user to configure it or automatically selecting a driver and configuring the printer We have a lot of the detection code, both usb and hal cups backends can detect the usb printer. Please keep in mind: this discussion should not be restricted to usb and hal backend, also the vendor specific backends should be supported: hp:, hpfax: (both from the full OpenSource project hplip), epson:, and many more to get the best printing results from a printer. Very good point. Can these detect USB devices like the usb backend? Or to they have a better canonical naming scheme for the printers? Hal being a general hardware detection layer actually sends a message when its plugged in and GNOME uses this to pop up a dialog to configure the printer via a hal backend for cups. However the hal backend is not a standard upstream cups backend and its very difficult to convert a cups hal:// uri to a usb:// one - but not entirely impossible, there is some code in /usr/bin/add-unknown-printer (part of the gnome-volume-manager) to do some of this. We need to mention that the current hal backend needs to be extended to satisfy the new requirements, which actual CUPS system expects from backends. But it seems that upstream developers didn't work on this opportunity till today. Well, it works enough to be used extensively in Fedora and Ubuntu, but yes it could be missing some pieces that we would need to add. Yast also does not support the hal backend currently. The usb cups backend is the standard upstream cups backend but it does no polling so we'd need to poll somehow (gnome-volume-manager and kmediamanager are possiblities). Hmm. I had a quick look at the current hal/dbus architecture. I didn't see any pollin by any device so far. Instead an administration process called by the hal/dbus system is executed. I'm speeking about the hal-cups-utils/hal_lpadmin tools. Maybe I'm wrong... I meant if we want to base the detection on the usb backend we'll need polling. But if not, then we might replace the hal backend by _any_ backend, and no need to use no longer developed tools (hal backend) is needed. Instead we can use our own mechanism here, even YaST, as soon as YaST supports installation of printers without any need of user feedback (full automatism). I want to point out, that there should be no goal to remove the usb backend from the system. The reasons are the manuals, and the CUPS book, which only speaks about this. Also the good help at the cups mailing lists should be mentioned, which is no longer usuable for the customers, if we cut the usb backend off the system. Agreed. For true zero config printer, we'd need to build up a database of printer ids and driver mappings and include that in the distro. We also need to make this configurable so that you have the possibility of not doing zeroconfig printing on servers. True. This is the first step. I'm still asking myself how a correct paper size (Letter or DinA4) is configured by zero conf. Locale data might be one way to guess (pretty much anyone outside North America is probably A4 :-)). If we want to extend this later, then we should think about a way to preserve an existend, and possibly modified configuration of a specific printer. The idea is here to get the old system configuration back, as soon as a printer gets replugged into the system. Agreed. 2) Not needing root to configure a printer [...] No comments from me to this topic so far. 3) Detecting when a printer is connected/disconnected and offering visual feedback via a notification area icon, or some other ui feedback An easy thing to do here would be to patch cups to send out dbus signals and both GNOME and KDE could put up tray icons or whatever. HAL could also be used to detect disconnects reconnects We need also handle the situation if a printer gets connected/ disconnected from the system when the system was switched off. We should not restrict our thinking about getting signals, boot time needs also to be handled properly. About the tray icons: as this automatic configuration should also work on machines without KDE nor GNOME, this is only an optional extension in my point of view. DBus signals would handle this, if there is no listener they would just be ignored, if there is a listener the listener can do whatever they want. 4) Ability to remove printers from cups (even shared printers) when they're unplugged to prevent jobs from accumulating in the queue or being default If we can get to zeroconfig printing we could optionally just remove a printer from cups when its unplugged. A little more unclear how useful it would be. I want to point out the optionally here. CUPS offers the possibility
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
On Fri, 2007-03-02 at 22:52 +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: After quite a long time, I decided to do some considerations on the status of OpenSUSE as a community and as a distribution, starting from everyday experience. I'll start from some bug reports, which affects me directly and which have been waiting for a solution for a long time since the release of 10.2 final. They're only examples, you can find many others on bugzilla. * main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 * Banshee doesn't recognize ipod https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215301 * yast is still unable to list printers https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 * Gimp can't print: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=230887 which sends to bug #226710, which is not accessible. The main menu bug is a blocker and it's really strange no-one in the development team noticed it during the development stage. A patch was recently released on bugzilla, but it only partially solves the problem for some user and does nothing for others, which indicates the issue is quite serious. We suspect it might be related to the size or entries in ~/.recently-used and are continuing to look at it. A final comment, to conclude this already long e-mail, is about the GNOME-KDE question (seriously, for once). Gnome users (not only me, there are a few, but there are) are quite bored to see GNOME considered the de-facto second choice of the distribution because it is less tested than KDE and less maintained. Now, I understand many developers at SUSE love KDE and that SUSE was a KDE based distribution. But in the past at least it was coherent: KDE was the default and SUSE was really optimised for KDE. It was so evident that GNOME appeared out of place, and it was OK. A user who chose SUSE knew it was a KDE distribution. Today SUSE has no defaults, so a user thinks he can choose what he likes more, but it's not that way. In openSUSE 10.2 it is so evident a lot of the efforts were put in creating a KDE which is better than GNOME. Examples are many: from the new kickoff menu, which was developed faster than the gnome main-menu and has none of the issues of the gnome one, to the opensuse-updater, which has no equivalent in GNOME (I know one is coming for 10.3). Both DE should be considered as alternatives, not as rivals. I do myself this mistake, I know. But it's really annoying to read Use KDE or Use a KDE app when a user asks for help about GNOME. Moreover GNOME is the default on SLED, and having a low quality GNOME on openSUSE doesn't help to give a good image to potential customers. If things are going to stay as they are at the moment, I would really prefer a strong but clear decision to make openSUSE again a KDE based distribution instead of having a two-DE distribution only in appearance. So, to be frank about this, the development group that includes GNOME work has not been very focused on openSUSE in the past, however we've been making a concerted effort to change this for 10.3. In the next couple of days I'll post info more widely that you already know Alberto about the opensuse GNOME mailing list and irc channel. That being said the same development group that manage GNOME has driven other general desktop technologies that have improved openSUSE substantially, such as Xgl/Compiz, NetworkManager, Beagle, so a lot of work has benefited openSUSE both for GNOME and KDE. -JP -- JP Rosevear [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell, Inc. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
On Fri, 2007-03-02 at 11:56 +0100, Ludwig Nussel wrote: JP Rosevear wrote: On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 11:29 +0100, Ludwig Nussel wrote: JP Rosevear wrote: One good use case we've seen with customers is that they don't want to give out the root password because that would enable users to do anything they want like update packages. What specific part of printer configuration should a user be able to do without authentication? Demanding that users must be able to configure printers without knowing the root password is too coarse grained. AFAICS the YaST2 printer module for example offers to reconfigure the firewall and to install additional packages when needed also as part of printer configuration. Adding printers. You can get large setups with dozens or hundreds of printers. Are you talking about setups where you plug in your shiny new USB printer and want it to just work or are you talking about network printers? I was assuming you were talking about the former but I somehow doubt that hundreds of printers need to be configured in that scenario ;-) Network printers, I should have actually listed that explicitly in use case 2) as well. -JP -- JP Rosevear [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell, Inc. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Marcus Meissner wrote: It just helps to be insistent. And if there is no reaction, just bring it up on this list. Personally, I have found that defects that I report on bugzilla tend to disappear into the void and are never acted on and sometimes with little to no response. I hardly expect developers to dedicate themselves to every problem that arises, but something a bit more than a token response would be appreciated. For instance refer to the following bug regarding the ivtv driver which was reported on during the 10.1 beta cycle. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=144616 The problem was reported during the development of 10.1 and still hasn't had a real response from the development team. Even a *Won't Fix* would be an acceptable response, but all pings and questions for the last year have disappeared into the void. These days I don't even see an ivtv package in the factory distribution, but no comments to this effect in bugzilla... Other bugs report the same problem, also with no conclusion https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=130098 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=159186 Maybe a post release bug cleanup activity could help here and in similar instances? Perhaps 2-3 months after a release the developers and community could be organized into a one day bug review of the outstanding bugs for the release and evaluate/assign them properly. For instance I currently see the following: 251 Open bugs for 10.0 683 Open bugs for 10.1 1224 Open bugs for 10.2 Wouldn't it be useful to review all those open bugs from the more recent releases and see if they should be updated to reflect the state of either the current release (10.2) or the factory (10.3), or possibly close them if they represent problems that are negligible in recent releases? Surely the combined effort between the developers and community over the course of a day or two could clean out the bug lists and identify tasks that should genuinely be targeted for fixes. Personally I would be willing to schedule a day or two toward such an activity that I think would improve the quality of defect management in opensuse. I think that the Mozilla lightning/calendar project has the right idea with scheduled community/developer test days. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar/2007/03/branch_sunbird_and_google_cale.html Thoughts? -- Theodore Bullock, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Software Engineering Student, University of Calgary GPG Fingerprint = 3B8E 8B0E D296 AACB 7BE2 24F2 1006 B7BE C8AC 5109 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Il giorno ven, 02/03/2007 alle 18.26 -0500, JP Rosevear ha scritto: So, to be frank about this, the development group that includes GNOME work has not been very focused on openSUSE in the past, however we've been making a concerted effort to change this for 10.3. In the next couple of days I'll post info more widely that you already know Alberto about the opensuse GNOME mailing list and irc channel. Yes JP and I find these news very important both for openSUSE and GNOME. You should know my opinions too, and, as a consequence, that my considerations are not against the GNOME team, which actually did an extremely good work for SLED. That being said the same development group that manage GNOME has driven other general desktop technologies that have improved openSUSE substantially, such as Xgl/Compiz, NetworkManager, Beagle, so a lot of work has benefited openSUSE both for GNOME and KDE. I perfectly know and agree with you about the substantial improvements brought by these new technologies and by the GNOME team, and I think too many people is not considering them as they deserve. I also know the GNOME team is far from being inactive also at the moment. I wanted to do some considerations about how things are going and about what, in my opinion, might improve things to avoid major problems and user dissatisfaction in future releases. See you, Alberto - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
