Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
* Janne Cederberg janne.cederb...@gmail.com [24.03.2015 12:56]: Oh, sorry Bastian I forgot to comment on your suggestion earlier! Question: how does that constant restarting affect network QoS/throughput? the 'wifi up' command is only issued when a) the last client leaves. each 60secs there is a check with for DEV in $WIFIDEVS; do iw dev $DEV station dump | grep -c ^'Station' $counter done so we know when there is a change from X to '0' clients - 'wifi up' see: https://github.com/bittorf/kalua/blob/master/openwrt-addons/etc/kalua/watch#L1818 b) around every 60-90 minutes when there is no client. this triggers also a new acs_survey/channel-section. because this is only done without clients, there is no change in network QoS/throughput? bye, bastian ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
After reading comments from all of you I thought of deploying additional devices just as wifi analyzers, as few of you suggested. I have used kismet before, but only as standalone wifi scanner, but there is also an option to deploy kismet-drones and monitor multiple endpoints from central kismet server. That could probably work if you can get alerts from kismet when some channel starts to have lots more traffic than it used to have and then take action if necessary to modify your node's channels. Any thoughts on this approach? ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
* David Lang da...@lang.hm [24.03.2015 12:56]: If a client tries to connect right after it has gone idle, they will just end up connecting to a more remote AP (assuming there is one in range) you are right, because everything is polluted with access-points, there is always another one in range... bye, bastian ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015, valent.turko...@gmail.com wrote: After reading comments from all of you I thought of deploying additional devices just as wifi analyzers, as few of you suggested. I have used kismet before, but only as standalone wifi scanner, but there is also an option to deploy kismet-drones and monitor multiple endpoints from central kismet server. That could probably work if you can get alerts from kismet when some channel starts to have lots more traffic than it used to have and then take action if necessary to modify your node's channels. Any thoughts on this approach? The devil is in the details. What does too much traffic mean? It could just be the crowd that you are intending to serve using the system, or one person doing a yum update. Then there's the problem of deciding what to do. As I was trying to say in my last, long message, figuring out what channel each AP is on is not a science, it's part art because the system can't know everything (are these APs heavily loaded because this is the keynote and everyone's in one place, or because everyone is in the lobby waiting for the show floor to open in 10 min and will flood in to the area where the APs are idle, etc) I've had cases where vendors on the show floor were demoing video streaming to mobile devices, using their own APs not coordinated with us (and after signing an agreement that they would not do so) where their activity not only clobbered three APs on the show floor, but 6 rooms of APs on the floor above. At some point there's not much you can actually do from a technical point of view other than identifying the problem. Kismit and similar can be useful tools to gather facts, but turning facts into information and figuring out what actions you can take are far from simple. David Lang ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Bastian Bittorf wrote: * David Lang da...@lang.hm [23.03.2015 20:19]: question is around having something to automatically assign channels amoung the different APs to minimize interference between the APs and between the APs and other things in the area. we just use hostapd athXk acs-survey/channel=auto...why dont you? For one thing I hadn't heard of it before now :-) I would need to test and see what it recommends in real-world conditions. It seems designed for setting up a single AP (although it really shouldn't try every 2.4GHz channel), but when trying to pick channels for a bunch of APs in an area, I see nothing in the documentation that would prevent every AP from picking the same channel because it was marginally better when everything is quiet. Then when you start to see heavy usage, the situaion will have changed drastically and you would have to take time away from servicing clients to scan other channels (during which time you are not transmitting normally, so any other APs doing a survey during the same time would get a faulty view of what the conditions are), and would the system converge to a stable setup, or would it always be shifting traffic. David Lang ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
* David Lang da...@lang.hm [23.03.2015 20:19]: question is around having something to automatically assign channels amoung the different APs to minimize interference between the APs and between the APs and other things in the area. we just use hostapd athXk acs-survey/channel=auto...why dont you? bye, bastian ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
Cool, this sparked a conversation :) Yes, the background of the question was not a mesh network but a network where all APs could be connected to the same switch for example and from there to a DHCP server. A controller would control which channels the APs operate on to minimize interference a) from each other and b) from possible other networks. David Lang stated exactly what I was attempting to convey. So there's the auto mode in OpenWrt but that only considers the state of the wifi spectrum at the ifup of the wifi adapter, correct? So if things drastically change later, the AP would stay on the same channel and not switch. I haven't used but understood that for example Cisco enterprice APs can be controller-managed and the controller can tell an individual or multiple APs to switch channels to actively avoid bad channels. What ideas the switch algorithm actually is based upon/using I personally have no clue of atm. Just started looking into the issue a few days ago. Personally I'm familiar and semi-fluent with Ansible, used it in one project so far. I was thinking the same thing David mentioned, namely, that determining channel change criterion is probably not trivial. Are you guys familiar with Cisco Meraki? -Janne 2015-03-23 21:45 GMT+02:00 David Lang da...@lang.hm: On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Bastian Bittorf wrote: * David Lang da...@lang.hm [23.03.2015 20:19]: question is around having something to automatically assign channels amoung the different APs to minimize interference between the APs and between the APs and other things in the area. we just use hostapd athXk acs-survey/channel=auto...why dont you? For one thing I hadn't heard of it before now :-) I would need to test and see what it recommends in real-world conditions. It seems designed for setting up a single AP (although it really shouldn't try every 2.4GHz channel), but when trying to pick channels for a bunch of APs in an area, I see nothing in the documentation that would prevent every AP from picking the same channel because it was marginally better when everything is quiet. Then when you start to see heavy usage, the situaion will have changed drastically and you would have to take time away from servicing clients to scan other channels (during which time you are not transmitting normally, so any other APs doing a survey during the same time would get a faulty view of what the conditions are), and would the system converge to a stable setup, or would it always be shifting traffic. David Lang ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
Citeren Janne Cederberg janne.cederb...@gmail.com: Cool, this sparked a conversation :) Yes, the background of the question was not a mesh network but a network where all APs could be connected to the same switch for example and from there to a DHCP server. A controller would control which channels the APs operate on to minimize interference a) from each other and b) from possible other networks. David Lang stated exactly what I was attempting to convey. David has 'some experience' with managing large wifi networks: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/lisa12/lisa12-final-32.pdf Well written and even if you manage a small wifi network well worth reading. ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
* Janne Cederberg janne.cederb...@gmail.com [23.03.2015 22:13]: So there's the auto mode in OpenWrt but that only considers the state of the wifi spectrum at the ifup of the wifi adapter, correct? So if things drastically change later, the AP would stay on the same channel and not switch. what we do in our custom solution: restart the wifi after the last station has left. that triggers often and reshuffles the channels... bye, bastian ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
Isn't CAPWAP designed for this? xxiao On 03/23/2015 07:42 PM, openwrt-devel-requ...@lists.openwrt.org wrote: Re: Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed? ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
Is there any open implementation of this? opencapwap shows no updates in their wiki since 2012 and no files at all on their sourceforge page. I admit to being a bit skeptical about such approaches. They sound good in theory, and work fairly well when there aren't that many users, but I've never seen a commercial system work well when there is really a load on the system (i.e. conference or classroom environments) David Lang On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, xxiao8 wrote: Isn't CAPWAP designed for this? xxiao On 03/23/2015 07:42 PM, openwrt-devel-requ...@lists.openwrt.org wrote: Re: Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed? ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:01 PM, David Lang da...@lang.hm wrote: Is there any open implementation of this? opencapwap shows no updates in their wiki since 2012 and no files at all on their sourceforge page. I admit to being a bit skeptical about such approaches. They sound good in theory, and work fairly well when there aren't that many users, but I've never seen a commercial system work well when there is really a load on the system (i.e. conference or classroom environments) David Lang There are working implementations of TR-69 that will do just this On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, xxiao8 wrote: Isn't CAPWAP designed for this? xxiao On 03/23/2015 07:42 PM, openwrt-devel-requ...@lists.openwrt.org wrote: Re: Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed? ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
Oh, sorry Bastian I forgot to comment on your suggestion earlier! Question: how does that constant restarting affect network QoS/throughput? -Janne 2015-03-23 23:17 GMT+02:00 Bastian Bittorf bitt...@bluebottle.com: * Janne Cederberg janne.cederb...@gmail.com [23.03.2015 22:13]: So there's the auto mode in OpenWrt but that only considers the state of the wifi spectrum at the ifup of the wifi adapter, correct? So if things drastically change later, the AP would stay on the same channel and not switch. what we do in our custom solution: restart the wifi after the last station has left. that triggers often and reshuffles the channels... bye, bastian ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
If it's done on a per AP basis, and only happens when nobody is connected, it probably doesn't have much effect. This will work when there aren't a lot of users so the various APs go completely idle on a regular basis. If a client tries to connect right after it has gone idle, they will just end up connecting to a more remote AP (assuming there is one in range) David Lang On Tue, 24 Mar 2015, Janne Cederberg wrote: Oh, sorry Bastian I forgot to comment on your suggestion earlier! Question: how does that constant restarting affect network QoS/throughput? -Janne 2015-03-23 23:17 GMT+02:00 Bastian Bittorf bitt...@bluebottle.com: * Janne Cederberg janne.cederb...@gmail.com [23.03.2015 22:13]: So there's the auto mode in OpenWrt but that only considers the state of the wifi spectrum at the ifup of the wifi adapter, correct? So if things drastically change later, the AP would stay on the same channel and not switch. what we do in our custom solution: restart the wifi after the last station has left. that triggers often and reshuffles the channels... bye, bastian ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
Have a look at this repo: https://github.com/libre-mesh/ruci Small utility for mass backup / restoring of OpenWrt routers configurations. Saverio 2015-03-21 15:49 GMT+01:00 Janne Cederberg janne.cederb...@gmail.com: Greetings all! Been searching around and found for example OpenWISP but thought I'd ask the list as well: is there some opensource management software for OpenWrt that could control a set of multiple OpenWrt AP's on the same SSID; so basically controlling their channels based on channel use and actively avoiding crowded/DOS'sed channels for example? Best regards, Janne Cederberg ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 10:33 AM, valent.turko...@gmail.com valent.turko...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 March 2015 at 15:49, Janne Cederberg janne.cederb...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings all! Been searching around and found for example OpenWISP but thought I'd ask the list as well: is there some opensource management software for OpenWrt that could control a set of multiple OpenWrt AP's on the same SSID; so basically controlling their channels based on channel use and actively avoiding crowded/DOS'sed channels for example? Best regards, Janne Cederberg Hi Janne, what you are asking for is quite custom piece of software so there is not any open source project with functionality that you ask for. But it is not too difficult to build something like that, try building it yourself and share it with others, or hire somebody to do it for you. Cheers, Valent. Thats actually not true, there are numerous implementations of dashboard management solution for openwrt based routers running mesh, Ive been running a dashboard for well over 6 years now on a large scale wireless deployment. just research openwrt wireless mesh dashboard ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
On 22 March 2015 at 10:01, Outback Dingo outbackdi...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 10:33 AM, valent.turko...@gmail.com valent.turko...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 March 2015 at 15:49, Janne Cederberg janne.cederb...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings all! Been searching around and found for example OpenWISP but thought I'd ask the list as well: is there some opensource management software for OpenWrt that could control a set of multiple OpenWrt AP's on the same SSID; so basically controlling their channels based on channel use and actively avoiding crowded/DOS'sed channels for example? Best regards, Janne Cederberg Hi Janne, what you are asking for is quite custom piece of software so there is not any open source project with functionality that you ask for. But it is not too difficult to build something like that, try building it yourself and share it with others, or hire somebody to do it for you. Cheers, Valent. Thats actually not true, there are numerous implementations of dashboard management solution for openwrt based routers running mesh, Ive been running a dashboard for well over 6 years now on a large scale wireless deployment. just research openwrt wireless mesh dashboard Please give some examples because I'm also really interested in any if they exist. I know of Nodewatcher [1], which is actively developed, and soon will have V3.0 release which will be easily deployable by anybody to create community mesh network, but currently it is missing lots of UI elements. I also found out that there is Afrimesh [2], but last commit was in 2011 so it looks like a dead project :( If anybody has used is please share your experience. There are quite a few commercial dashboards like Open-Mesh [3] but you also need to buy their hardware AFAIK... So if there are other dashboard projects that are usable please share them. [1] https://dev.wlan-si.net/wiki/Nodewatcher [2] https://code.google.com/p/afrimesh/ [3] http://www.open-mesh.com/ ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
[OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
Greetings all! Been searching around and found for example OpenWISP but thought I'd ask the list as well: is there some opensource management software for OpenWrt that could control a set of multiple OpenWrt AP's on the same SSID; so basically controlling their channels based on channel use and actively avoiding crowded/DOS'sed channels for example? Best regards, Janne Cederberg ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Multiple OpenWrt devices collectively managed?
On 21 March 2015 at 15:49, Janne Cederberg janne.cederb...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings all! Been searching around and found for example OpenWISP but thought I'd ask the list as well: is there some opensource management software for OpenWrt that could control a set of multiple OpenWrt AP's on the same SSID; so basically controlling their channels based on channel use and actively avoiding crowded/DOS'sed channels for example? Best regards, Janne Cederberg Hi Janne, what you are asking for is quite custom piece of software so there is not any open source project with functionality that you ask for. But it is not too difficult to build something like that, try building it yourself and share it with others, or hire somebody to do it for you. Cheers, Valent. ___ openwrt-devel mailing list openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org https://lists.openwrt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel
