Re: new perspektive for tor
Michael Schmidt wrote: > „§ 113a Speicherungspflichten für Daten > > (6) Wer Telekommunikationsdienste erbringt und hierbei die nach Maßgabe > dieser Vorschrift zu speichernden Angaben verändert, ist zur Speicherung > der ursprünglichen und der neuen Angabe sowie des Zeitpunktes der > Umschreibung dieser Angaben nach Datum und Uhrzeit unter Angabe der > zugrunde liegenden Zeitzone verpflichtet. how should this apply to tor? The application doesn't generate any session data. Right? Thus there are no "original data" I could alter before storing. Supposed you are right and to store data would imply the obligation to collect those data before. This means every router in the German part of the Internet would have to run some kind of data collection like Cisco's Netflow. Furthermore beneath IP layer 3 lies an entire universe of layer 1 and 2 CWDM, DWDM, and SDH network stuff which is completely transparent to the Internet user. Since this new law applies to telecommunication in general and not only to Internet in specific, one would have to collect data from those systems, too. How exactly to you collect and store data from a 80-color DWDM system transmitting 10 GBit/s on each color? regards, Olaf DWDM dense wavelength division multiplexing CWDM coarse wavelength division multiplexing
Re: new perspektive for tor
„§ 113a Speicherungspflichten für Daten
(6) Wer Telekommunikationsdienste erbringt und hierbei die nach Maßgabe
dieser Vorschrift zu speichernden Angaben verändert, ist zur Speicherung der
ursprünglichen und der neuen Angabe sowie des Zeitpunktes der Umschreibung
dieser Angaben nach Datum und Uhrzeit unter Angabe der zugrunde liegenden
Zeitzone verpflichtet.
http://dip.bundestag.de/btd/16/058/1605846.pdf
2007/11/17, Olaf Selke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
> >
> > You need to logg the traffic, you have time to get the log tools till.
> > 1.1.2009, so one year from beginning in 2008.
>
> do I? According the law one has to store ("speichern") collected
> ("erzeugte") or processed ("verarbeitete") data for six months. From my
> understanding there's no obligation to collect any data. Obviously data
> not collected can't be stored.
>
> I've just asked a friend working for the BSI about his opinion. He
> promised to check and provide me with feedback regarding Dark Side's
> perspective of the terms "collect" and "store".
>
> Did any of my German colleagues on this list really bothered with
> reading the law?
>
> regards, Olaf
>
Re: new perspektive for tor
Michael Schmidt wrote:
>
> You need to logg the traffic, you have time to get the log tools till.
> 1.1.2009, so one year from beginning in 2008.
do I? According the law one has to store ("speichern") collected
("erzeugte") or processed ("verarbeitete") data for six months. From my
understanding there's no obligation to collect any data. Obviously data
not collected can't be stored.
I've just asked a friend working for the BSI about his opinion. He
promised to check and provide me with feedback regarding Dark Side's
perspective of the terms "collect" and "store".
Did any of my German colleagues on this list really bothered with
reading the law?
regards, Olaf
Re: new perspektive for tor
2007/11/17, Olaf Selke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > > in the total EU there will be NO TOR-Outproxy from begin of 1.1.2008: > > really? I don't intend to shut down my exit gateway located in Germany. > Is there any reason I'm supposed to do so? > > Olaf > You need to logg the traffic, you have time to get the log tools till. 1.1.2009, so one year from beginning in 2008. If you do not log, then you are aginst the law. Dunno, what the punsihment is... But as the german plice has raided several Tor servers, I would not run one, and as you are in law conflict, if you do not logg, then this is as well a problem.. so I guess in the next year more and more servers will vanish... Mike
Re: new perspektive for tor
"Michael Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 2007/11/17, Robert Hogan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > On Friday 16 November 2007 17:04:18 Michael Schmidt wrote: > > > Due to data retention logg needs/law in the EU, there will be no > > > outproxy and no forwarding-nodes in the EU anymore, if they do not > > > logg all traffic. > > > > Can someone point me to the EU directive on this? I thought this was just > > a > > German initiative. > in the total EU there will be NO TOR-Outproxy from begin of 1.1.2008: Unlikely. Fabian signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: new perspektive for tor
Michael Schmidt wrote: > > in the total EU there will be NO TOR-Outproxy from begin of 1.1.2008: really? I don't intend to shut down my exit gateway located in Germany. Is there any reason I'm supposed to do so? Olaf
Re: new perspektive for tor
On Saturday 17 November 2007 14:42:56 you wrote: > Hi Robert, > > On Sat, 17.11.2007, you wrote: > > Can someone point me to the EU directive on this? I thought this was just > > a German initiative. > > http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:105:0054:01 >:EN:HTML > > > felix If you go to the bottom of that link you can see many countries appear to be 'postponing' application of the directive indefinitely. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: new perspektive for tor
Felix Eckhofer wrote: Hi Robert,On Sat, 17.11.2007, you wrote: Can someone point me to the EU directive on this? I thought this was just a German initiative. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:105:0054:01:EN:HTMLfelix So a law which was said to be for protecting the privacy and rights ofa user was really a stalking horse for a law which would eventuallylegalise the complete invasion of our privacy and a removal of ourright to freedom of speech! Roll on the new world order - it stinks - we'll all be wearing badgesto identify ourselves soon. -K- - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Re: new perspektive for tor
Hi Robert, On Sat, 17.11.2007, you wrote: > Can someone point me to the EU directive on this? I thought this was just a > German initiative. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:105:0054:01:EN:HTML felix -- felix_eckhofer * http://tribut.de/kontakt * please encrypt "Ein Betriebssystem sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden, ins Dunkle zu treiben und ewig zu binden..." signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: new perspektive for tor
2007/11/17, Robert Hogan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Friday 16 November 2007 17:04:18 Michael Schmidt wrote: > > Due to data retention logg needs/law in the EU, there will be no > > outproxy and no forwarding-nodes in the EU anymore, if they do not > > logg all traffic. > > Can someone point me to the EU directive on this? I thought this was just > a > German initiative. in the total EU there will be NO TOR-Outproxy from begin of 1.1.2008: So the idea is to have only forwarders in the EU - based on a security friend to friend layer with trusted friends only (tor retroshare-plugin). The hybrid nodes (tor plugins connecting AS WELL to the normal tor network layer) though must be then Outside this law aerea. And: every forwarder inside needs to know a hybrid outside the law aerea. If this is given, he can forward the packet many time on the f2f layer of his trusted friends, until any of the f2f-friends know ANY PORT to go outside to a hybrid again. So this is Matrix Reloaded with Neo, needing a Port. - World outside: routing and routing - HYBRID: World outside, slides the packet over to F2F - World inside begin: ping pong Germany pong ping Germany ping pong Germany pong ping Germany ... and many hops forwarded - World inside end - HYBRID: World outside, a friend from inside is giving the packet to a hybrid node outside - Worldoutside: routing and routing to the destination. So the new approach is to have a world outside with tor routing, and a World inside with forwarding nodes. The World inside is based on the secure trusted friend encrypted layer of http://retroshare.sf.net . Each node inside the World needs friends either forwarding or a HYBRID-friend from Outside the law. We need a board for that, to bring people from inside and outside together, as the f2f chain may be broken quick, as not every f2f user is installing the tor-plugin. But three or four routing ways in the middle is enough for a start to haver the MIXER. Then different Ports or Hybrids outside the World start the routing, some ping pong inside over f2f layer and then back outside, ideally over a different hybrid node. So the goal for nodes inside is a) to have friends forwarding for free, and b) to have at least one or two hybrid- friends to mix here the Inside-World-Entry and Inside-World-Exit Nodes. (remember the exit node is the tor node to fetch the website and the iside-world-exit-node is the node in a country without data retention law and hybrid with F2F). Here are the laws: EU, Germany and some laywer discussions, UK and Ireland and some other already have, as well USA will step into this .. so.. Russia and India is the last resort for Tor, China as well of course not. So a protocol change is needed, or a mixer, which is based on acting against the law, but this will no one do. So the trusted friend inside and the trusted friend hybrid outside will help to get a mix chain inside the law-area. Regards Richtlinie 2006/24/EG: http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/lex/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2006/l_105/l_10520060413en00540063.pdf; Umgesetzt im deutschen Gesetzesentwurf: http://dip.bundestag.de/btd/16/058/1605846.pdf http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/91627 vom 23.06.2007 http://www.bundestag.de/bic/analysen/2006/zulaessigkeit_der_vorratsdatenspeicherung_nach_europaeischem_und_deutschem_recht.pdf, dagegen: https://www.datenschutzzentrum.de/polizei/20070627-vorratsdatenspeicherung.pdf sowie das Bundesverfassungsgericht: http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/pressemitteilungen/bvg07-082.html Bundesverfassungsgericht - Pressestelle - Pressemitteilung Nr. 82/2007 vom 27. Juli 2007 - 1 BvR 370/07; 1BvR 595/07 - http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/pressemitteilungen/bvg07-082.html
Re: new perspektive for tor
On Friday 16 November 2007 17:04:18 Michael Schmidt wrote: > Due to data retention logg needs/law in the EU, there will be no > outproxy and no forwarding-nodes in the EU anymore, if they do not > logg all traffic. Can someone point me to the EU directive on this? I thought this was just a German initiative. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: new perspektive for tor
Michael Schmidt wrote: > Hello Roger, hello List > > I read on another forum, that you are visiting us for the Congress in Berlin > http://events.ccc.de/congress/2007/Welcome%21 > and will talk later with the people from the > http://www.privacyfoundation.de/ > about a new extension to Tor > http://wiki.freunde-der-freiheit.de/index.php/TOR-Campaign > > Due to data retention logg needs/law in the EU, there will be no > outproxy and no forwarding-nodes in the EU anymore, if they do not > logg all traffic. Though there might be a foreign Tor-node in the > chain, e.g. from India or USA, mostley the german or EU Tor nodes are > worthless, as you can follow the chain (if they logg). > > The Tor Campain has the idea, to bring Tor on routers, but this is > still then ilegal and needs logging, nor would this use no one and > third we are not FON. > > There has been another idea, to put an TOR-Outproxy into Firefox, so > that opening the outproxy is a MUST and default. So tit-for-tat, you > are allowed to surf anonymous, if you allow other to surf through your > IP/Tor-Firefox too. > > Third I thought about this idea: > > Developing a second communication layer (second virtual network) for > tor, which is compatible with the peers, but running on a > friend-to-friend private network, which is encrypted and would allow > to support the network not by Outproxies in Germany/EU, but with a lot > of Forwarding-Nodes in germany on this virtual network. > > E.G. Dive in in the USA, 4 Hops in Germany, Back one Hop to India and > then surfing to the website. the 4 Forwarding hops in Germany CAN take > place, if they are in a closed virtual private network, where the > entry and last hop of this virtual network layer is outside Germany > (so the 1-before- last hop of the tor-chain). > > See the graphic here: > http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5762/torretroshareqa5.png > > Alice is located in the USA, but it would be no problem to locate > Alice in Germany. > You only need to be sure, that you make the option "outproxy" in a > country, which is outside the data-retention-law, e.g. india. > > In the countries, where you have data-retention-law and need to logg, > there it is as well forbidden to use an forwarding-tor-node (except > you logg, but then worthless). > > But: if you make the german forwarding nodes in a second layer (I call > it plugin-nodes), then you have encrypted tunnels to friends, this > means you start the virtual forwarding network over an India node, > SWITCH TO F2F-SECURE NETWORK - tiggle it a few hops in germany, and > the last one is forwarding again to india and SO SWITCH BACK FROM > F2F-SECURE NETWORK and make one hop to the website. > > This means the TIGGLING HOPS IN GERMANY can be 5 , 7, 10 hops... and > no one knows the IPs of the Tor-Pugins, because it is not relaying on > peers, but trusted friends which maintain a private secure channel > network, > > Ok, it is a kind of web of trust with this messenger, > > http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=618174 > > so got one participant by police, you can locally /physically see > which other friends he has, either from the PGP-Certificate, but as > well by the ISP connections. But: This is the same with Tor, and here > you have peers, so it is even more insecure, if there is logging by > the ISP. (and the isp loggs, yes, but in the F2F network you have > streams, so you can deny to run a Tor-Plugin !!! no one can prove !, > that´s the trick !!) > > It is a kind of hopping in F2F: the messenger F2F is the basis, and we > only need that for website-data-traffic beeing able to hop the > friends, with the condition: the Outproxy is needed outside the law of > data retention. (if the law is all over the world to logg any > outproxy, then tor is definately dead). See the powerpoint here for > hopping friends. > http://www.turtle4privacy.org/documents/en_what_is_turtle_f2f.ppt > > Then the Picture above shows plugin-nodes into a f2f messenger, which > normally are only forwarding (over the secure f2f channel only to > friends with tor-plugin, not to peers with tor). then you have friends > in countries without this data retention law, these friend then CAN > LET THE TOR-PLUGIN connect to the normal TOR node network (forwarding > or outproxing..) > > This would be a good way, the EU and Germany can support the network > by forwarding nodes (the middle chain) - if the Outproxy nodes are in > countries which have not this law. > > Maybe you can discuss this, > As well I thought about TOR over i2p.net, but that would make TOR > nodes in germany possible for forwarding, but them outproxing would > relay the traffic to the one and only I2p-Surf-outproxy in Sweden, > which could not handle this. > > So I think a F2F network allows to hop and forward the chain in the > middle of the tor-chain for germany, if a friend or a friend of the > friend is outside the law zone with as well such a > f2f-messenger-tor-pugin, which then is directing to the normal t
Fwd: new perspektive for tor
-- Forwarded message -- Subject: new perspektive for tor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Roger, hello List I read on another forum, that you are visiting us for the Congress in Berlin http://events.ccc.de/congress/2007/Welcome%21 and will talk later with the people from the http://www.privacyfoundation.de/ about a new extension to Tor http://wiki.freunde-der-freiheit.de/index.php/TOR-Campaign Due to data retention logg needs/law in the EU, there will be no outproxy and no forwarding-nodes in the EU anymore, if they do not logg all traffic. Though there might be a foreign Tor-node in the chain, e.g. from India or USA, mostley the german or EU Tor nodes are worthless, as you can follow the chain (if they logg). The Tor Campain has the idea, to bring Tor on routers, but this is still then ilegal and needs logging, nor would this use no one and third we are not FON. There has been another idea, to put an TOR-Outproxy into Firefox, so that opening the outproxy is a MUST and default. So tit-for-tat, you are allowed to surf anonymous, if you allow other to surf through your IP/Tor-Firefox too. Third I thought about this idea: Developing a second communication layer (second virtual network) for tor, which is compatible with the peers, but running on a friend-to-friend private network, which is encrypted and would allow to support the network not by Outproxies in Germany/EU, but with a lot of Forwarding-Nodes in germany on this virtual network. E.G. Dive in in the USA, 4 Hops in Germany, Back one Hop to India and then surfing to the website. the 4 Forwarding hops in Germany CAN take place, if they are in a closed virtual private network, where the entry and last hop of this virtual network layer is outside Germany (so the 1-before- last hop of the tor-chain). See the graphic here: http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5762/torretroshareqa5.png Alice is located in the USA, but it would be no problem to locate Alice in Germany. You only need to be sure, that you make the option "outproxy" in a country, which is outside the data-retention-law, e.g. india. In the countries, where you have data-retention-law and need to logg, there it is as well forbidden to use an forwarding-tor-node (except you logg, but then worthless). But: if you make the german forwarding nodes in a second layer (I call it plugin-nodes), then you have encrypted tunnels to friends, this means you start the virtual forwarding network over an India node, SWITCH TO F2F-SECURE NETWORK - tiggle it a few hops in germany, and the last one is forwarding again to india and SO SWITCH BACK FROM F2F-SECURE NETWORK and make one hop to the website. This means the TIGGLING HOPS IN GERMANY can be 5 , 7, 10 hops... and no one knows the IPs of the Tor-Pugins, because it is not relaying on peers, but trusted friends which maintain a private secure channel network, Ok, it is a kind of web of trust with this messenger, http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=618174 so got one participant by police, you can locally /physically see which other friends he has, either from the PGP-Certificate, but as well by the ISP connections. But: This is the same with Tor, and here you have peers, so it is even more insecure, if there is logging by the ISP. (and the isp loggs, yes, but in the F2F network you have streams, so you can deny to run a Tor-Plugin !!! no one can prove !, that´s the trick !!) It is a kind of hopping in F2F: the messenger F2F is the basis, and we only need that for website-data-traffic beeing able to hop the friends, with the condition: the Outproxy is needed outside the law of data retention. (if the law is all over the world to logg any outproxy, then tor is definately dead). See the powerpoint here for hopping friends. http://www.turtle4privacy.org/documents/en_what_is_turtle_f2f.ppt Then the Picture above shows plugin-nodes into a f2f messenger, which normally are only forwarding (over the secure f2f channel only to friends with tor-plugin, not to peers with tor). then you have friends in countries without this data retention law, these friend then CAN LET THE TOR-PLUGIN connect to the normal TOR node network (forwarding or outproxing..) This would be a good way, the EU and Germany can support the network by forwarding nodes (the middle chain) - if the Outproxy nodes are in countries which have not this law. Maybe you can discuss this, As well I thought about TOR over i2p.net, but that would make TOR nodes in germany possible for forwarding, but them outproxing would relay the traffic to the one and only I2p-Surf-outproxy in Sweden, which could not handle this. So I think a F2F network allows to hop and forward the chain in the middle of the tor-chain for germany, if a friend or a friend of the friend is outside the law zone with as well such a f2f-messenger-tor-pugin, which then is directing to the normal tor network (or direct outproxying ). Think of this as a pinnball game, in the top you have these
