RE: Poll Questions
One more thing: If you do it on a timely basis (daily, weekly) then people who need data that can be satisfied by it does not need to use the production database. Also developers like to test against a live like database. This way they are more likely to catch errors when working against transactions that are very seldom used. Yechiel Adar, Mehish Computer Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Tracy Rahmlow [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thu, March 14, 2002 5:54 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Poll Questions Clarification: My initial question was not really asking how to do it. But more it was trying to find out what other shops do. In addition, since the production database is large what benefits/costs can I present to justify cloning a fullsized database to an acceptance database? For example, I think it is far easier to copy the entire database rather than extract some subset of it for creating a sizable acceptance database. Also, I think we would obtain more accurate timings for queries in an exact copy rather than a subset of data. What else? 03/13/2002 10:38 AM PST Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: We do a similar refresh (as mentioned by Kirti) daily using hotbackup and archivelogs and it is named DAYOLD. Raj __ Rajendra JamadagniMIS, ESPN Inc. Rajendra dot Jamadagni at ESPN dot com Any opinion expressed here is personal and doesn't reflect that of ESPN Inc. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, but having an opinion is an art! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Kirti, Why not using hot backup + archived log files ? Just wondering, if there is any specific reason. Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] (See attached file: ESPN_Disclaimer.txt) *** eSafe scanned this email for malicious content *** *** IMPORTANT: Do not open attachments from unrecognized senders *** File: ESPN_Disclaimer.txt -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-8?Q?=E0=E3=F8_=E9=E7=E9=E0=EC?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Poll Questions
Clarification: My initial question was not really asking how to do it. But more it was trying to find out what other shops do. In addition, since the production database is large what benefits/costs can I present to justify cloning a fullsized database to an acceptance database? For example, I think it is far easier to copy the entire database rather than extract some subset of it for creating a sizable acceptance database. Also, I think we would obtain more accurate timings for queries in an exact copy rather than a subset of data. What else? 03/13/2002 10:38 AM PST Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: We do a similar refresh (as mentioned by Kirti) daily using hotbackup and archivelogs and it is named DAYOLD. Raj __ Rajendra JamadagniMIS, ESPN Inc. Rajendra dot Jamadagni at ESPN dot com Any opinion expressed here is personal and doesn't reflect that of ESPN Inc. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, but having an opinion is an art! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Kirti, Why not using hot backup + archived log files ? Just wondering, if there is any specific reason. Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] (See attached file: ESPN_Disclaimer.txt) ESPN_Disclaimer.txt Description: Binary data
Re: Poll Questions
Tracy - 75 gb is nothing. Lets see: dba hourly rate to create test from data subset of production vs. cost of 75gb disks? Hmm, seems like a no brainer. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/12/02 05:43PM We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gene Sais INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Poll Questions
The best argument is that you have the hardware and software on-site for disaster recovery. It's not a failover situation but it does mean that production would be down for hours instead of days. Tracy Rahmlow Tracy.RahmloTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L w[EMAIL PROTECTED] @aexp.com cc: Sent by: rootSubject: Poll Questions 03/12/2002 05:43 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Poll Questions
Title: RE: Poll Questions I agree the work involved in creating a representative subset of data , complete with full RI in place can be quite significant. I know there are tools in place that do some of the work (Checkmate by BitybyBit and Quest have one - data factory I think) but these also require significant input and knowledge of the schemas. More importantly is the performance testing aspect. I have never seen a production system that has been implemented without some unknown/unexpected bottleneck because code has not been tested with realistic volumes. I know there are options available to asisst these days (outlines and stats to name 2) but a full size dev database is not the overhead it may seem. Disk is cheap , time is not. John -Original Message- From: Gene Sais [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 13 March 2002 13:13 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Poll Questions Tracy - 75 gb is nothing. Lets see: dba hourly rate to create test from data subset of production vs. cost of 75gb disks? Hmm, seems like a no brainer. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/12/02 05:43PM We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gene Sais INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). = This electronic message contains information from the mmO2 plc Group which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by telephone or email (to the numbers or address above) immediately. =
Re: Poll Questions
Given that I saw a 120GB disk for $229 in Sunday's paper, I'm not convinced that the cost of hardware should be an issue. At $50/hour for the DBA, the break even point is less than 5 hours. A development system doesn't need to be fast or contain RAID. It just should be big enough to hold a copy of production. The compromise we've made here is the production DB run on RAID-0+1 and the development DB run on RAID-5 on a box with fewer and slower CPUs. Tracy Rahmlow wrote: We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Charlie Mengler Maintenance Warehouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10641 Scripps Summit Ct. 858-831-2229 San Diego, CA 92131 Lead, follow, or at least have the courtesy to get out of my way! -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Charlie Mengler INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Poll Questions
Anyone besides me seeing old email reappear on the listserv here...? RF Robert G. Freeman - Oracle8i OCP Oracle DBA Technical Lead CSX Midtier Database Administration The Cigarette Smoking Man: Anyone who can appease a man's conscience can take his freedom away from him. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I agree with Charlie. Disk is not very expensive. We have a prod db of about 85GB size. The test/dev env is on other server. They need 100% prod db for regression/volume testing etc. No sub-setting of data is accepted. Whenever they wanted those environment refreshed with prod data, we take a quick cold backup to the spare disks (downtime is less than an hour). And then transfer (ftp/rcp) the files to the target server (3 hours), rename the databases etc, and we are done. This process is in place for a couple of years now. These databases are still running on Oracle 7.3.x. Convince the Mgmt for additional disks, if you can. The benefit in investing in those is surely worth the cost but again most Damagers follow 'what it costs is more important than what it does' rule. In the absences of those spare disks, we would not have been able to do this cloning with the acceptable amount of downtime, and of course, the turn-around time. But, in our environment the User Community pays for the disk and not the IT Dept. And that type of Financing works well with us. Sometimes, extremely well :) - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:43 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Given that I saw a 120GB disk for $229 in Sunday's paper, I'm not convinced that the cost of hardware should be an issue. At $50/hour for the DBA, the break even point is less than 5 hours. A development system doesn't need to be fast or contain RAID. It just should be big enough to hold a copy of production. The compromise we've made here is the production DB run on RAID-0+1 and the development DB run on RAID-5 on a box with fewer and slower CPUs. Tracy Rahmlow wrote: We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Charlie Mengler Maintenance Warehouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10641 Scripps Summit Ct. 858-831-2229 San Diego, CA 92131 Lead, follow, or at least have the courtesy to get out of my way! -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Deshpande, Kirti INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Freeman, Robert INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet
RE: Poll Questions
We do a similar refresh (as mentioned by Kirti) daily using hotbackup and archivelogs and it is named DAYOLD. Raj __ Rajendra Jamadagni MIS, ESPN Inc. Rajendra dot Jamadagni at ESPN dot com Any opinion expressed here is personal and doesn't reflect that of ESPN Inc. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, but having an opinion is an art! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Kirti, Why not using hot backup + archived log files ? Just wondering, if there is any specific reason. Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] *2 This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you. *2
RE: Poll Questions
Hi Igor, Good Question. Our method (home scripts) for hot backups is single threaded (one TS at a time). The elapsed time in running multiple copy jobs with db down and subsequent ftp via FDDI backbone to the target server was much shorter as compared to the hot backup scenario. Also, the spare disks had the filesystems/mount directories exactly as the target destination. So, scripting all this mess was rather easy. That's about it.. Thanks, - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Kirti, Why not using hot backup + archived log files ? Just wondering, if there is any specific reason. Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:23 AM I agree with Charlie. Disk is not very expensive. We have a prod db of about 85GB size. The test/dev env is on other server. They need 100% prod db for regression/volume testing etc. No sub-setting of data is accepted. Whenever they wanted those environment refreshed with prod data, we take a quick cold backup to the spare disks (downtime is less than an hour). And then transfer (ftp/rcp) the files to the target server (3 hours), rename the databases etc, and we are done. This process is in place for a couple of years now. These databases are still running on Oracle 7.3.x. Convince the Mgmt for additional disks, if you can. The benefit in investing in those is surely worth the cost but again most Damagers follow 'what it costs is more important than what it does' rule. In the absences of those spare disks, we would not have been able to do this cloning with the acceptable amount of downtime, and of course, the turn-around time. But, in our environment the User Community pays for the disk and not the IT Dept. And that type of Financing works well with us. Sometimes, extremely well :) - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:43 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Given that I saw a 120GB disk for $229 in Sunday's paper, I'm not convinced that the cost of hardware should be an issue. At $50/hour for the DBA, the break even point is less than 5 hours. A development system doesn't need to be fast or contain RAID. It just should be big enough to hold a copy of production. The compromise we've made here is the production DB run on RAID-0+1 and the development DB run on RAID-5 on a box with fewer and slower CPUs. Tracy Rahmlow wrote: We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Charlie Mengler Maintenance Warehouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10641 Scripps Summit Ct. 858-831-2229 San Diego, CA 92131 Lead, follow, or at least have the courtesy to get out of my way! -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Deshpande, Kirti INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing
Re: Poll Questions
Kirti, So, your concern in this case was total elapsed time (from starting copying files to getting them on the target), not db downtime. Is that's the reason for cold backup? Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 2:02 PM Hi Igor, Good Question. Our method (home scripts) for hot backups is single threaded (one TS at a time). The elapsed time in running multiple copy jobs with db down and subsequent ftp via FDDI backbone to the target server was much shorter as compared to the hot backup scenario. Also, the spare disks had the filesystems/mount directories exactly as the target destination. So, scripting all this mess was rather easy. That's about it.. Thanks, - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Kirti, Why not using hot backup + archived log files ? Just wondering, if there is any specific reason. Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:23 AM I agree with Charlie. Disk is not very expensive. We have a prod db of about 85GB size. The test/dev env is on other server. They need 100% prod db for regression/volume testing etc. No sub-setting of data is accepted. Whenever they wanted those environment refreshed with prod data, we take a quick cold backup to the spare disks (downtime is less than an hour). And then transfer (ftp/rcp) the files to the target server (3 hours), rename the databases etc, and we are done. This process is in place for a couple of years now. These databases are still running on Oracle 7.3.x. Convince the Mgmt for additional disks, if you can. The benefit in investing in those is surely worth the cost but again most Damagers follow 'what it costs is more important than what it does' rule. In the absences of those spare disks, we would not have been able to do this cloning with the acceptable amount of downtime, and of course, the turn-around time. But, in our environment the User Community pays for the disk and not the IT Dept. And that type of Financing works well with us. Sometimes, extremely well :) - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:43 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Given that I saw a 120GB disk for $229 in Sunday's paper, I'm not convinced that the cost of hardware should be an issue. At $50/hour for the DBA, the break even point is less than 5 hours. A development system doesn't need to be fast or contain RAID. It just should be big enough to hold a copy of production. The compromise we've made here is the production DB run on RAID-0+1 and the development DB run on RAID-5 on a box with fewer and slower CPUs. Tracy Rahmlow wrote: We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Charlie Mengler Maintenance Warehouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10641 Scripps Summit Ct. 858-831-2229
RE: Poll Questions
Igor, Yes. That's what I was told. - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 1:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Kirti, So, your concern in this case was total elapsed time (from starting copying files to getting them on the target), not db downtime. Is that's the reason for cold backup? Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 2:02 PM Hi Igor, Good Question. Our method (home scripts) for hot backups is single threaded (one TS at a time). The elapsed time in running multiple copy jobs with db down and subsequent ftp via FDDI backbone to the target server was much shorter as compared to the hot backup scenario. Also, the spare disks had the filesystems/mount directories exactly as the target destination. So, scripting all this mess was rather easy. That's about it.. Thanks, - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Kirti, Why not using hot backup + archived log files ? Just wondering, if there is any specific reason. Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:23 AM I agree with Charlie. Disk is not very expensive. We have a prod db of about 85GB size. The test/dev env is on other server. They need 100% prod db for regression/volume testing etc. No sub-setting of data is accepted. Whenever they wanted those environment refreshed with prod data, we take a quick cold backup to the spare disks (downtime is less than an hour). And then transfer (ftp/rcp) the files to the target server (3 hours), rename the databases etc, and we are done. This process is in place for a couple of years now. These databases are still running on Oracle 7.3.x. Convince the Mgmt for additional disks, if you can. The benefit in investing in those is surely worth the cost but again most Damagers follow 'what it costs is more important than what it does' rule. In the absences of those spare disks, we would not have been able to do this cloning with the acceptable amount of downtime, and of course, the turn-around time. But, in our environment the User Community pays for the disk and not the IT Dept. And that type of Financing works well with us. Sometimes, extremely well :) - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:43 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Given that I saw a 120GB disk for $229 in Sunday's paper, I'm not convinced that the cost of hardware should be an issue. At $50/hour for the DBA, the break even point is less than 5 hours. A development system doesn't need to be fast or contain RAID. It just should be big enough to hold a copy of production. The compromise we've made here is the production DB run on RAID-0+1 and the development DB run on RAID-5 on a box with fewer and slower CPUs. Tracy Rahmlow wrote: We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Charlie
RE: Poll Questions
me too! --- Freeman, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone besides me seeing old email reappear on the listserv here...? RF Robert G. Freeman - Oracle8i OCP Oracle DBA Technical Lead CSX Midtier Database Administration The Cigarette Smoking Man: Anyone who can appease a man's conscience can take his freedom away from him. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I agree with Charlie. Disk is not very expensive. We have a prod db of about 85GB size. The test/dev env is on other server. They need 100% prod db for regression/volume testing etc. No sub-setting of data is accepted. Whenever they wanted those environment refreshed with prod data, we take a quick cold backup to the spare disks (downtime is less than an hour). And then transfer (ftp/rcp) the files to the target server (3 hours), rename the databases etc, and we are done. This process is in place for a couple of years now. These databases are still running on Oracle 7.3.x. Convince the Mgmt for additional disks, if you can. The benefit in investing in those is surely worth the cost but again most Damagers follow 'what it costs is more important than what it does' rule. In the absences of those spare disks, we would not have been able to do this cloning with the acceptable amount of downtime, and of course, the turn-around time. But, in our environment the User Community pays for the disk and not the IT Dept. And that type of Financing works well with us. Sometimes, extremely well :) - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:43 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Given that I saw a 120GB disk for $229 in Sunday's paper, I'm not convinced that the cost of hardware should be an issue. At $50/hour for the DBA, the break even point is less than 5 hours. A development system doesn't need to be fast or contain RAID. It just should be big enough to hold a copy of production. The compromise we've made here is the production DB run on RAID-0+1 and the development DB run on RAID-5 on a box with fewer and slower CPUs. Tracy Rahmlow wrote: We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Charlie Mengler Maintenance Warehouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10641 Scripps Summit Ct. 858-831-2229 San Diego, CA 92131 Lead, follow, or at least have the courtesy to get out of my way! -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Deshpande, Kirti INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official
Poll Questions
We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Poll Questions
One of my approaches for resolving this issue was to ask them exactly where they intended to build a test database to validate that bug out of the production environment, because sometimes those bugs don't show up in the stripped down developer database . There was also an issue of space and creating databases for recovery functions in disaster recovery Cheers -- = Peter McLarty E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical ConsultantWWW: http://www.mincom.com APAC Technical Services Phone: +61 (0)7 3303 3461 Brisbane, AustraliaMobile: +61 (0)402 094 238 Facsimile: +61 (0)7 3303 3048 = A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. - Walter Bagehot (1826-1877 British Economist) = Mincom The People, The Experience, The Vision = Tracy Rahmlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 13/03/2002 08:43 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Fax to: Subject:Poll Questions We currently have a production, system and development database here. The system and development databases are purged periodically and reloaded with lookup data. The developers are then responsible for entering transactional data in both regions. I am looking to follow the same practice for development, however I would like to clone my production database directly to the system test database. The production database is ~75G. Management does not want to commit $ to a full sized system database. Costs outweigh the benefits. I would like to sway them. HOW? Please give me your costs/benefits of doing this. In addition, what is the norm (if there can be one) in other shops. Does utopia exist? ps. One of the biggest reasons for this database would be for benchmarking, timings, stress-testing. I realize I can copy the production stats, but that won't give me a good execution time. Do others load a subset of data (say 25%) and then extrapolate to a total time? Is that even necessarily accurate to do? I have my doubts. Thanks -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Tracy Rahmlow INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- This transmission is for the intended addressee only and is confidential information. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete it and notify the sender. The contents of this e-mail are the opinion of the writer only and are not endorsed by the Mincom Group of companies unless expressly stated otherwise. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
