Re: Am I too hard on the developper ?
Stephane, stick to your guns - part of the dba's job (as I see it, and try to do ) is to help guide the developers in the best way to do things on the database if it's your choice that they should do an alter table, then that's what they should do. don't give in. Brian. paquette stephane [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 02/16/2001 11:05:37 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:(bcc: Brian McQuillan/GELCO) Hi, I do not know if it's friday afternoon or what ? The developpers want me to regenerate the grants in the development environment because they're running a script that drops and recreates a new version of the tables. I asked them : Could you do an alter table instead ? The developpers : What ! they'are at least 10 new fields ! I used to be a developper, I do not remember myself dropping and recreating everything each time I add a new field . Anyway in production, only the new stuff goes in. Any comments ? = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Am I too hard on the developper ?
Stephane, the idea of dropping and re-creating tables is simply preposterous. If the tables involved are bigger then 50M, then such procedure is not practical. Anyway, I don't see why would the table need to be dropped/re-created now when we can drop columns and move/rebuild tables. Fortunately for me, I am 6'4", 250 LBS, former greko-roman wrestler, so not many people do come up with such ideas on Friday afternoon. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:06 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi, I do not know if it's friday afternoon or what ? The developpers want me to regenerate the grants in the development environment because they're running a script that drops and recreates a new version of the tables. I asked them : Could you do an alter table instead ? The developpers : What ! they'are at least 10 new fields ! I used to be a developper, I do not remember myself dropping and recreating everything each time I add a new field . Anyway in production, only the new stuff goes in. Any comments ? = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Am I too hard on the developper ?
well, if they drop and recreate the tables, then they should recreate the grants. Give them a script that will generate a script to recreate the grants. let them run it before they drop the table. From: paquette stephane [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Am I too hard on the developper ? Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:05:37 -0800 Hi, I do not know if it's friday afternoon or what ? The developpers want me to regenerate the grants in the development environment because they're running a script that drops and recreates a new version of the tables. I asked them : Could you do an alter table instead ? The developpers : What ! they'are at least 10 new fields ! I used to be a developper, I do not remember myself dropping and recreating everything each time I add a new field . Anyway in production, only the new stuff goes in. Any comments ? = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Am I too hard on the developper ?
Yeah but it is so much work to add 10 new fields . The latest one is 'Do we have a tool that can compare the dev and the test environment so we know what we have to put in test ?' . Not only it is too hard to do 10 alter tables but also it is too hard to make a list of what is changed (I'm not even talking about planning stuff). Here, the 2/3 of IT is from one of the biggest consultant firm (Cap Gemini Ernst and Young, oups it slips out ...) so 99.9% of the 2/3 are developpers asking questions like " Can you tell me again the difference between a primary key and a foreign key". It's 18:20 , I'm going home and I'll send a less nasty email on monday morning. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] a crit: Stay on it. Dropping tables to add columns in development is just plain stupid. Jared On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, [iso-8859-1] paquette stephane wrote: Hi, I do not know if it's friday afternoon or what ? The developpers want me to regenerate the grants in the development environment because they're running a script that drops and recreates a new version of the tables. I asked them : Could you do an alter table instead ? The developpers : What ! they'are at least 10 new fields ! I used to be a developper, I do not remember myself dropping and recreating everything each time I add a new field . Anyway in production, only the new stuff goes in. Any comments ? = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Am I too hard on the developper ?
Stay on it. Dropping tables to add columns in development is just plain stupid. Jared On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, [iso-8859-1] paquette stephane wrote: Hi, I do not know if it's friday afternoon or what ? The developpers want me to regenerate the grants in the development environment because they're running a script that drops and recreates a new version of the tables. I asked them : Could you do an alter table instead ? The developpers : What ! they'are at least 10 new fields ! I used to be a developper, I do not remember myself dropping and recreating everything each time I add a new field . Anyway in production, only the new stuff goes in. Any comments ? = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Am I too hard on the developper ?
Consider yourself lucky. Last week I had a doh!veloper tell me (I swear I'm not making this up) that he had to test his code in production because "the test environment got messed up and its too hard to figure out how to make it right again". He's a really junior guy and actually quite brilliant so I was gentle with him, but now I'm REALLY worried about who's example he was following. Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/16/01 12:26PM Yeah but it is so much work to add 10 new fields . The latest one is 'Do we have a tool that can compare the dev and the test environment so we know what we have to put in test ?' . Not only it is too hard to do 10 alter tables but also it is too hard to make a list of what is changed (I'm not even talking about planning stuff). Here, the 2/3 of IT is from one of the biggest consultant firm (Cap Gemini Ernst and Young, oups it slips out ...) so 99.9% of the 2/3 are developpers asking questions like " Can you tell me again the difference between a primary key and a foreign key". It's 18:20 , I'm going home and I'll send a less nasty email on monday morning. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] a crit : Stay on it. Dropping tables to add columns in development is just plain stupid. Jared On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, [iso-8859-1] paquette stephane wrote: Hi, I do not know if it's friday afternoon or what ? The developpers want me to regenerate the grants in the development environment because they're running a script that drops and recreates a new version of the tables. I asked them : Could you do an alter table instead ? The developpers : What ! they'are at least 10 new fields ! I used to be a developper, I do not remember myself dropping and recreating everything each time I add a new field . Anyway in production, only the new stuff goes in. Any comments ? = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jim Conboy INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Am I too hard on the developper ?
Yeah but it is so much work to add 10 new fields . The latest one is 'Do we have a tool that can compare the dev and the test environment so we know what we have to put in test ?' . Not only it is too hard to do 10 alter tables but also it is too hard to make a list of what is changed (I'm not even talking about planning stuff). Here, the 2/3 of IT is from one of the biggest consultant firm (Cap Gemini Ernst and Young, oups it slips out ...) so 99.9% of the 2/3 are developpers asking questions like " Can you tell me again the difference between a primary key and a foreign key". It's 18:20 , I'm going home and I'll send a less nasty email on monday morning. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] a crit: Stay on it. Dropping tables to add columns in development is just plain stupid. Jared On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, [iso-8859-1] paquette stephane wrote: Hi, I do not know if it's friday afternoon or what ? The developpers want me to regenerate the grants in the development environment because they're running a script that drops and recreates a new version of the tables. I asked them : Could you do an alter table instead ? The developpers : What ! they'are at least 10 new fields ! I used to be a developper, I do not remember myself dropping and recreating everything each time I add a new field . Anyway in production, only the new stuff goes in. Any comments ? = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Am I too hard on the developper ?
Comments inline: From a developer: 1. Although it may not always matter at the database level, the order of the columns within a table often follow a logical sequence. ALTER TABLE does not give you control over where in the column list that column will be added. Example: If you want to add a MIDDLE_NAME column, you would logically want it to be listed near the FIRST_NAME and LAST_NAME columns ... not at the end of the table. Think of it as de-fragmenting the table description ... it just makes things easier in the long run if similar columns appear in logical groupings. You point is moot, oracle does NOT guarantee order of columns, so ignore this point. 2. If the developers want to drop and re-create the tables in a development environment, let them. But also make them responsible for the grants. They can download a tool like TOAD for free (www.toadsoft.com). It will generate complete drop and recreate scripts for a table (or a complete schema), and include the grants, triggers, indexes, synonyms, storage criteria, etc. Generate the script for the table(s) they want to change, edit the script to add the new columns in their proper place, and execute it. Table dropped, re-constructed, and grants re-granted. No DBA involvement needed. Point well taken except for one thing, when the screw them up who they gonna come and see to bail them out, the DBA, so not letting them do that stuff make less work for the dba. ignore this point also. 3. In the future, keep in mind that DBAs and Developers should work as a team, not as opponents. You need each other. I see too many posts here from DBAs who seem to look down on developers. There are good and bad developers, but guess what ... there are also good and bad DBAs. We've had both here. Dave The only valid point you made. Joe _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Joseph Testa INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Am I too hard on the developper ?
in answer to point 1: a relational database, if designed properly, is not supposed to have ordering matter in the columns, nor should the data have inherent meaning. If you really need to see the columns in an application logical order, you should create a view on the table with the columns in the order you want and leave the base table alone. Part of the problem with dropping and recreating tables is that you have all the associated programs/triggers/grants/constraints to deal with. If you try to drop a table where another table has a foreign key constraint on the original table, you get errors and have to go through a convoluted process to restore everything back to the way it was. Having said all that... I like my developers -- they listen to me and I, in turn, listen to them. We sometimes ignore one another and do our own thing anyway, but at least we listen first. :) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Am I too hard on the developper ? Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:50:29 -0800 From a developer: 1. Although it may not always matter at the database level, the order of the columns within a table often follow a logical sequence. ALTER TABLE does not give you control over where in the column list that column will be added. Example: If you want to add a MIDDLE_NAME column, you would logically want it to be listed near the FIRST_NAME and LAST_NAME columns ... not at the end of the table. Think of it as de-fragmenting the table description ... it just makes things easier in the long run if similar columns appear in logical groupings. 2. If the developers want to drop and re-create the tables in a development environment, let them. But also make them responsible for the grants. They can download a tool like TOAD for free (www.toadsoft.com). It will generate complete drop and recreate scripts for a table (or a complete schema), and include the grants, triggers, indexes, synonyms, storage criteria, etc. Generate the script for the table(s) they want to change, edit the script to add the new columns in their proper place, and execute it. Table dropped, re-constructed, and grants re-granted. No DBA involvement needed. 3. In the future, keep in mind that DBAs and Developers should work as a team, not as opponents. You need each other. I see too many posts here from DBAs who seem to look down on developers. There are good and bad developers, but guess what ... there are also good and bad DBAs. We've had both here. Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:02 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re:Am I too hard on the developper ? Stephane, It's Friday, thank God Rachel. Anyway, should one use the "alter table" or drop rebuild method? Good question. Certainly "alter table" is easier, but then there is the possibility of fragmentation and chained blocks, but in development who really cares? Also, how many column(s) are they adding, what data types are they how large are they? Most of the time I see developers wanting to do the drop/rebuild method so that the order of the fields when doing a describe matches the applications use of the columns. Big deal. I remember some time ago doing a PeopleSoft patch where they wanted to rebuild a many many rows table just to add a single character flag field. Again big deal, I just ran an alter table instead. Saved a ton of time and the application did not care one bit. Still running as we speak. In your case though, I'd push the PAIN back on the developers. If they want to rebuild the table they can redo the grants as well. Suprising how often they'll prefer the alter vs. rebuild. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephane?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2/16/2001 8:05 AM Hi, I do not know if it's friday afternoon or what ? The developpers want me to regenerate the grants in the development environment because they're running a script that drops and recreates a new version of the tables. I asked them : Could you do an alter table instead ? The developpers : What ! they'are at least 10 new fields ! I used to be a developper, I do not remember myself dropping and recreating everything each time I add a new field . Anyway in production, only the new stuff goes in. Any comments ? = Stephane Paquette DBA Oracle [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?paquette=20stephan
RE: Am I too hard on the developper ?
On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... DBAs who seem to look down on developers. There are good and bad developers, but guess what ... there are also good and bad DBAs. We've had both here. True, but bad developers tend to last longer than bad DBA's. ;) Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
