RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
Dennis, Excellent recommendation, Guy Harrison's book (2nd Edition) is excellent the best I've seen on SQL tuning. I've used it for a number of years. I had the 1st edition and then bought the 2nd when it came out. Cheers, Chris -Original Message- Sent: 29 October 2003 15:49 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ranganath Since you mentioned proactive and reactive query tuning, I think the philosophy with which one approaches the tuning exercise means everything. Wrong philosophy and you spend your time spinning your wheels. All of us have only a limited amount of time to devote, so the best approach will make the best use of that time. Get Optimizing Oracle Performance by Cary Millsap. It doesn't take long to read the important parts. Implement Cary's approach to locate the queries where you will get the most bang for the buck. Then use books like Guy Harrison's (Ryan's suggestion) for pointers on making those queries perform better. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ranganath K INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Dunscombe, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
How about: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/orsqltunpr/ Oracle SQL Tuning Pocket Reference, by one of our esteemed partners - Mark Gurry. Mark -Original Message- Ranganath K Sent: 29 October 2003 14:24 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ranganath K INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 22/10/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 22/10/2003 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
the only book out there that is any good is High Performance Tuning by Guy Harrison. Ignore the part where he says that a cursor with an update in the loop can be faster than using an update with where exists. That is inaccurate. the rest is solid. unforunately its not that simple. How you tune depends on the type of system you have. If your in an OLTP system with alot of concurrency, you tune heavily for Logical I/Os even if the query takes longer to run in isolation. If your doing batch queries, then you tune more for response time and less for logical I/Os. its just not that simple. From: Ranganath K [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed AM 09:24:25 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ranganath K INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Re: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
Ryan, 'can be faster' is rarely inaccurate. It all depends. SF - --- Original Message --- - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:49:33 the only book out there that is any good is High Performance Tuning by Guy Harrison. Ignore the part where he says that a cursor with an update in the loop can be faster than using an update with where exists. That is inaccurate. the rest is solid. unforunately its not that simple. How you tune depends on the type of system you have. If your in an OLTP system with alot of concurrency, you tune heavily for Logical I/Os even if the query takes longer to run in isolation. If your doing batch queries, then you tune more for response time and less for logical I/Os. its just not that simple. From: Ranganath K [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed AM 09:24:25 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
Ranganath Since you mentioned proactive and reactive query tuning, I think the philosophy with which one approaches the tuning exercise means everything. Wrong philosophy and you spend your time spinning your wheels. All of us have only a limited amount of time to devote, so the best approach will make the best use of that time. Get Optimizing Oracle Performance by Cary Millsap. It doesn't take long to read the important parts. Implement Cary's approach to locate the queries where you will get the most bang for the buck. Then use books like Guy Harrison's (Ryan's suggestion) for pointers on making those queries perform better. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ranganath K INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
the original poster sent me an email stating that he doesnt want a book or documentation, he just wants some sort of short cut template. i replied that if one exists its garbage. He didnt respond. A side note, it seems to be in vogue to recommend advanced books like carrie millsap's and tom kytes to beginners. This isnt appropriate. Beginners should start with beginning material and work their way up. Starting with advanced material will just confuse them. From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed AM 10:49:25 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Ranganath Since you mentioned proactive and reactive query tuning, I think the philosophy with which one approaches the tuning exercise means everything. Wrong philosophy and you spend your time spinning your wheels. All of us have only a limited amount of time to devote, so the best approach will make the best use of that time. Get Optimizing Oracle Performance by Cary Millsap. It doesn't take long to read the important parts. Implement Cary's approach to locate the queries where you will get the most bang for the buck. Then use books like Guy Harrison's (Ryan's suggestion) for pointers on making those queries perform better. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ranganath K INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
Ryan - Thanks for updating us on the status with the user. As to what we recommend to novice users, as a practical matter, unless the poster makes their experience or lack thereof clear, I just have to make an assumption. In this case, since the poster was talking about guidelines and templates, my assumption was that the poster was setting policy for his/her site, but I perhaps I made a different assumption based on few facts than you made. As to Cary's book being too advanced for beginners, here is my opinion: First, Cary has made great efforts to ensure the bulk of his book is very clear for even managers. And he makes it clear you don't need to understand Part 2 in order to benefit. Second, if anyone, especially a beginner, takes the wrong approach to tuning, they can waste many months of effort with few results (beyond imagined progress). I feel Cary's book offers the best approach to tuning available today. But an alternative I could suggest is Christopher Lawson's Oracle Performance Tuning. He offers a nice balance between the philosophy of tuning as well as practical tips for tuning specific queries. Sams Publishing puts a User Level rating on their books. Maybe we should ask O'Reilly to do the same. How about that Jonathan? Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L urgently the original poster sent me an email stating that he doesnt want a book or documentation, he just wants some sort of short cut template. i replied that if one exists its garbage. He didnt respond. A side note, it seems to be in vogue to recommend advanced books like carrie millsap's and tom kytes to beginners. This isnt appropriate. Beginners should start with beginning material and work their way up. Starting with advanced material will just confuse them. From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed AM 10:49:25 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Ranganath Since you mentioned proactive and reactive query tuning, I think the philosophy with which one approaches the tuning exercise means everything. Wrong philosophy and you spend your time spinning your wheels. All of us have only a limited amount of time to devote, so the best approach will make the best use of that time. Get Optimizing Oracle Performance by Cary Millsap. It doesn't take long to read the important parts. Implement Cary's approach to locate the queries where you will get the most bang for the buck. Then use books like Guy Harrison's (Ryan's suggestion) for pointers on making those queries perform better. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ranganath K INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
Neither Tom Kyte's nor Cary Millsap's books are too advanced for beginners. In the case of Tom's book, they may have to ponder things a bit, and actually try the code for themselves to get a good understanding. So what? That's how you learn. Regarding Cary's book, what's so hard about it? Beginner's could do much worse by reading some of the claptrap pablum that is available, but that will just make it harder for them to understand the good stuff when they see it. Also, re the comments about the math in Cary's book: What's the big deal? So what if you don't understand the math? There isn't really that much of it, and you can undestand the material even if you can't follow the proof. Jared Oracle - steroids for your brain. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/29/2003 09:24 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently the original poster sent me an email stating that he doesnt want a book or documentation, he just wants some sort of short cut template. i replied that if one exists its garbage. He didnt respond. A side note, it seems to be in vogue to recommend advanced books like carrie millsap's and tom kytes to beginners. This isnt appropriate. Beginners should start with beginning material and work their way up. Starting with advanced material will just confuse them. From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed AM 10:49:25 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Ranganath Since you mentioned proactive and reactive query tuning, I think the philosophy with which one approaches the tuning exercise means everything. Wrong philosophy and you spend your time spinning your wheels. All of us have only a limited amount of time to devote, so the best approach will make the best use of that time. Get Optimizing Oracle Performance by Cary Millsap. It doesn't take long to read the important parts. Implement Cary's approach to locate the queries where you will get the most bang for the buck. Then use books like Guy Harrison's (Ryan's suggestion) for pointers on making those queries perform better. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ranganath K INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
i guess i jumped to conclusions, but i took it from the level of his questions. 'basic template' = looking for shortcut = what people look for when they are new to something and want to get started quick = not always a bad idea. From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed PM 12:59:34 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Ryan - Thanks for updating us on the status with the user. As to what we recommend to novice users, as a practical matter, unless the poster makes their experience or lack thereof clear, I just have to make an assumption. In this case, since the poster was talking about guidelines and templates, my assumption was that the poster was setting policy for his/her site, but I perhaps I made a different assumption based on few facts than you made. As to Cary's book being too advanced for beginners, here is my opinion: First, Cary has made great efforts to ensure the bulk of his book is very clear for even managers. And he makes it clear you don't need to understand Part 2 in order to benefit. Second, if anyone, especially a beginner, takes the wrong approach to tuning, they can waste many months of effort with few results (beyond imagined progress). I feel Cary's book offers the best approach to tuning available today. But an alternative I could suggest is Christopher Lawson's Oracle Performance Tuning. He offers a nice balance between the philosophy of tuning as well as practical tips for tuning specific queries. Sams Publishing puts a User Level rating on their books. Maybe we should ask O'Reilly to do the same. How about that Jonathan? Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L urgently the original poster sent me an email stating that he doesnt want a book or documentation, he just wants some sort of short cut template. i replied that if one exists its garbage. He didnt respond. A side note, it seems to be in vogue to recommend advanced books like carrie millsap's and tom kytes to beginners. This isnt appropriate. Beginners should start with beginning material and work their way up. Starting with advanced material will just confuse them. From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed AM 10:49:25 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Ranganath Since you mentioned proactive and reactive query tuning, I think the philosophy with which one approaches the tuning exercise means everything. Wrong philosophy and you spend your time spinning your wheels. All of us have only a limited amount of time to devote, so the best approach will make the best use of that time. Get Optimizing Oracle Performance by Cary Millsap. It doesn't take long to read the important parts. Implement Cary's approach to locate the queries where you will get the most bang for the buck. Then use books like Guy Harrison's (Ryan's suggestion) for pointers on making those queries perform better. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ranganath K INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E
RE: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
The biggest problem I have with Cary's (and Jeff's!) book is patience. There's constant mention of which I'll show you in Chapter 6 and so forth and it pains me to keep on reading from where I am so's I don't get too distracted and forget the important concepts I was just reading. :) I also have so many sticky tabs in the first three chapters that I can't see my bookmark anymore. But the upside is it puts my 3-week old to sleep as I read it to her... :D Rich Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:15 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Neither Tom Kyte's nor Cary Millsap's books are too advanced for beginners. In the case of Tom's book, they may have to ponder things a bit, and actually try the code for themselves to get a good understanding. So what? That's how you learn. Regarding Cary's book, what's so hard about it? Beginner's could do much worse by reading some of the claptrap pablum that is available, but that will just make it harder for them to understand the good stuff when they see it. Also, re the comments about the math in Cary's book: What's the big deal? So what if you don't understand the math? There isn't really that much of it, and you can undestand the material even if you can't follow the proof. Jared Oracle - steroids for your brain. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
As an author, let me just add that it pains US to have to say which I'll show you in ... Books are laid out in some sort of order although readers don't always read from chapter 1 straight through to the end. If we were to go off on every tangent so as not to say see such and thus later, a reader who was sampling by looking things up in the index or table of contents, would be totally lost. Plus the thread of the lesson would get hopelessly tangled. It's a fine line between explaining everything right now and saying later. --- Jesse, Rich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The biggest problem I have with Cary's (and Jeff's!) book is patience. There's constant mention of which I'll show you in Chapter 6 and so forth and it pains me to keep on reading from where I am so's I don't get too distracted and forget the important concepts I was just reading. :) I also have so many sticky tabs in the first three chapters that I can't see my bookmark anymore. But the upside is it puts my 3-week old to sleep as I read it to her... :D Rich Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:15 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Neither Tom Kyte's nor Cary Millsap's books are too advanced for beginners. In the case of Tom's book, they may have to ponder things a bit, and actually try the code for themselves to get a good understanding. So what? That's how you learn. Regarding Cary's book, what's so hard about it? Beginner's could do much worse by reading some of the claptrap pablum that is available, but that will just make it harder for them to understand the good stuff when they see it. Also, re the comments about the math in Cary's book: What's the big deal? So what if you don't understand the math? There isn't really that much of it, and you can undestand the material even if you can't follow the proof. Jared Oracle - steroids for your brain. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
jared you have been doing this for what 10-15 years now? take someone with little to know background in this field and little to no technical experience. tom kytes book is rough and dense from their perspective. soemtimes people forget how far removed they are from the true beginner. There is a big difference between what is easy for you and what is easy for a beginner. I think that is why alot of senior people get frustrated when training newbies. They really dont know anything and it REALLY is that hard for them. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed PM 01:14:37 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Neither Tom Kyte's nor Cary Millsap's books are too advanced for beginners. In the case of Tom's book, they may have to ponder things a bit, and actually try the code for themselves to get a good understanding. So what? That's how you learn. Regarding Cary's book, what's so hard about it? Beginner's could do much worse by reading some of the claptrap pablum that is available, but that will just make it harder for them to understand the good stuff when they see it. Also, re the comments about the math in Cary's book: What's the big deal? So what if you don't understand the math? There isn't really that much of it, and you can undestand the material even if you can't follow the proof. Jared Oracle - steroids for your brain. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/29/2003 09:24 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently the original poster sent me an email stating that he doesnt want a book or documentation, he just wants some sort of short cut template. i replied that if one exists its garbage. He didnt respond. A side note, it seems to be in vogue to recommend advanced books like carrie millsap's and tom kytes to beginners. This isnt appropriate. Beginners should start with beginning material and work their way up. Starting with advanced material will just confuse them. From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed AM 10:49:25 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Ranganath Since you mentioned proactive and reactive query tuning, I think the philosophy with which one approaches the tuning exercise means everything. Wrong philosophy and you spend your time spinning your wheels. All of us have only a limited amount of time to devote, so the best approach will make the best use of that time. Get Optimizing Oracle Performance by Cary Millsap. It doesn't take long to read the important parts. Implement Cary's approach to locate the queries where you will get the most bang for the buck. Then use books like Guy Harrison's (Ryan's suggestion) for pointers on making those queries perform better. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ranganath K INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message
Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
They really dont know anything and it REALLY is that hard for them. Hence the lies on their resumes. ;) OK, enought cynicism. For now. Maybe it is hard. I guess I just don't agree that they shouldn't just dive in and sink or swim. And yes, I've been doing this a while, but there are still things that I find difficult. Often this is due to poorly written software and/or documentation, usually the latter, sometimes the former, and on occasion both. In those cases I don't persist unless absolutely necessary. Whether or not to tackle a tough subject head depends on how badly you need to, I guess. eg. I once had OAS 4.0 working on Windows NT. Jared [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/29/2003 11:20 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently jared you have been doing this for what 10-15 years now? take someone with little to know background in this field and little to no technical experience. tom kytes book is rough and dense from their perspective. soemtimes people forget how far removed they are from the true beginner. There is a big difference between what is easy for you and what is easy for a beginner. I think that is why alot of senior people get frustrated when training newbies. They really dont know anything and it REALLY is that hard for them. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed PM 01:14:37 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Neither Tom Kyte's nor Cary Millsap's books are too advanced for beginners. In the case of Tom's book, they may have to ponder things a bit, and actually try the code for themselves to get a good understanding. So what? That's how you learn. Regarding Cary's book, what's so hard about it? Beginner's could do much worse by reading some of the claptrap pablum that is available, but that will just make it harder for them to understand the good stuff when they see it. Also, re the comments about the math in Cary's book: What's the big deal? So what if you don't understand the math? There isn't really that much of it, and you can undestand the material even if you can't follow the proof. Jared Oracle - steroids for your brain. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/29/2003 09:24 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently the original poster sent me an email stating that he doesnt want a book or documentation, he just wants some sort of short cut template. i replied that if one exists its garbage. He didnt respond. A side note, it seems to be in vogue to recommend advanced books like carrie millsap's and tom kytes to beginners. This isnt appropriate. Beginners should start with beginning material and work their way up. Starting with advanced material will just confuse them. From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed AM 10:49:25 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Ranganath Since you mentioned proactive and reactive query tuning, I think the philosophy with which one approaches the tuning exercise means everything. Wrong philosophy and you spend your time spinning your wheels. All of us have only a limited amount of time to devote, so the best approach will make the best use of that time. Get Optimizing Oracle Performance by Cary Millsap. It doesn't take long to read the important parts. Implement Cary's approach to locate the queries where you will get the most bang for the buck. Then use books like Guy Harrison's (Ryan's suggestion) for pointers on making those queries perform better. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can be used as a guideline/report while tuning simple, medium complex and complex SQL queries and PL/SQL stored procedures? If so, can you please forward the same to me please? If not, can anybody suggest as to how to go about doing one? Any help in this regard is very much appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Ranganath -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ranganath K INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
RE: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
The structure we chose for this thing was that we wanted a marginally technical decision-maker to be able to read Parts I and III without giving up. Therefore, any time there was an opportunity for a technical tangent, the rule was explain it (later) in the reference section. I figured Part II was too much to cache in one's head anyway, so I didn't worry so much about making this part flow. I expected that Parts I and III would be full-scanned by a wide audience, and that Part II would be index range-scanned by a narrower audience. :) Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - SQL Optimization 101: 12/8-12 Dallas - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Rachel Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 1:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L urgently As an author, let me just add that it pains US to have to say which I'll show you in ... Books are laid out in some sort of order although readers don't always read from chapter 1 straight through to the end. If we were to go off on every tangent so as not to say see such and thus later, a reader who was sampling by looking things up in the index or table of contents, would be totally lost. Plus the thread of the lesson would get hopelessly tangled. It's a fine line between explaining everything right now and saying later. --- Jesse, Rich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The biggest problem I have with Cary's (and Jeff's!) book is patience. There's constant mention of which I'll show you in Chapter 6 and so forth and it pains me to keep on reading from where I am so's I don't get too distracted and forget the important concepts I was just reading. :) I also have so many sticky tabs in the first three chapters that I can't see my bookmark anymore. But the upside is it puts my 3-week old to sleep as I read it to her... :D Rich Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:15 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Neither Tom Kyte's nor Cary Millsap's books are too advanced for beginners. In the case of Tom's book, they may have to ponder things a bit, and actually try the code for themselves to get a good understanding. So what? That's how you learn. Regarding Cary's book, what's so hard about it? Beginner's could do much worse by reading some of the claptrap pablum that is available, but that will just make it harder for them to understand the good stuff when they see it. Also, re the comments about the math in Cary's book: What's the big deal? So what if you don't understand the math? There isn't really that much of it, and you can undestand the material even if you can't follow the proof. Jared Oracle - steroids for your brain. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include
Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
not sure its about sink or swim. I think its more productive for them to start with basic stuff and get grounded in that first. Saves time. Saves frustration and they learn faster. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed PM 02:54:25 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently They really dont know anything and it REALLY is that hard for them. Hence the lies on their resumes. ;) OK, enought cynicism. For now. Maybe it is hard. I guess I just don't agree that they shouldn't just dive in and sink or swim. And yes, I've been doing this a while, but there are still things that I find difficult. Often this is due to poorly written software and/or documentation, usually the latter, sometimes the former, and on occasion both. In those cases I don't persist unless absolutely necessary. Whether or not to tackle a tough subject head depends on how badly you need to, I guess. eg. I once had OAS 4.0 working on Windows NT. Jared [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/29/2003 11:20 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently jared you have been doing this for what 10-15 years now? take someone with little to know background in this field and little to no technical experience. tom kytes book is rough and dense from their perspective. soemtimes people forget how far removed they are from the true beginner. There is a big difference between what is easy for you and what is easy for a beginner. I think that is why alot of senior people get frustrated when training newbies. They really dont know anything and it REALLY is that hard for them. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed PM 01:14:37 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Neither Tom Kyte's nor Cary Millsap's books are too advanced for beginners. In the case of Tom's book, they may have to ponder things a bit, and actually try the code for themselves to get a good understanding. So what? That's how you learn. Regarding Cary's book, what's so hard about it? Beginner's could do much worse by reading some of the claptrap pablum that is available, but that will just make it harder for them to understand the good stuff when they see it. Also, re the comments about the math in Cary's book: What's the big deal? So what if you don't understand the math? There isn't really that much of it, and you can undestand the material even if you can't follow the proof. Jared Oracle - steroids for your brain. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/29/2003 09:24 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently the original poster sent me an email stating that he doesnt want a book or documentation, he just wants some sort of short cut template. i replied that if one exists its garbage. He didnt respond. A side note, it seems to be in vogue to recommend advanced books like carrie millsap's and tom kytes to beginners. This isnt appropriate. Beginners should start with beginning material and work their way up. Starting with advanced material will just confuse them. From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/29 Wed AM 10:49:25 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently Ranganath Since you mentioned proactive and reactive query tuning, I think the philosophy with which one approaches the tuning exercise means everything. Wrong philosophy and you spend your time spinning your wheels. All of us have only a limited amount of time to devote, so the best approach will make the best use of that time. Get Optimizing Oracle Performance by Cary Millsap. It doesn't take long to read the important parts. Implement Cary's approach to locate the queries where you will get the most bang for the buck. Then use books like Guy Harrison's (Ryan's suggestion) for pointers on making those queries perform better. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi there, Does any body have a template for proactive and reactive query tuning which can
RE: RE: SQL and PL/SQL tuning template document required urgently
I tried reading a Harry Potter book backwards once. It was fun, and actually made a bit of sense. --Walt Weaver Bozeman, Montana On Wed, 2003-10-29 at 12:19, Rachel Carmichael wrote: As an author, let me just add that it pains US to have to say which I'll show you in ... Books are laid out in some sort of order although readers don't always read from chapter 1 straight through to the end. If we were to go off on every tangent so as not to say see such and thus later, a reader who was sampling by looking things up in the index or table of contents, would be totally lost. Plus the thread of the lesson would get hopelessly tangled. It's a fine line between explaining everything right now and saying later. --- Jesse, Rich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The biggest problem I have with Cary's (and Jeff's!) book is patience. There's constant mention of which I'll show you in Chapter 6 and so forth and it pains me to keep on reading from where I am so's I don't get too distracted and forget the important concepts I was just reading. :) I also have so many sticky tabs in the first three chapters that I can't see my bookmark anymore. But the upside is it puts my 3-week old to sleep as I read it to her... :D Rich Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:15 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Neither Tom Kyte's nor Cary Millsap's books are too advanced for beginners. In the case of Tom's book, they may have to ponder things a bit, and actually try the code for themselves to get a good understanding. So what? That's how you learn. Regarding Cary's book, what's so hard about it? Beginner's could do much worse by reading some of the claptrap pablum that is available, but that will just make it harder for them to understand the good stuff when they see it. Also, re the comments about the math in Cary's book: What's the big deal? So what if you don't understand the math? There isn't really that much of it, and you can undestand the material even if you can't follow the proof. Jared Oracle - steroids for your brain. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Walt Weaver INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
