RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again - OT
My sincere and humble apologies to Rachel, if my earlier email has offended her. That was not the intention. I believe myself and others that tease and pick on Rachel, do it out of respect and love for her, and would never intentionally mean to offend her. I do not know about other locations and cultures, but in my office we constantly pick and tease on each other. It is those who are never teased that have to worry... If I offend you then please do not hesitate to email me privately or publicly. sarcasm From now on I will just pick on Jared... /sarcasm -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 2:03 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Personal attacks certainly don't belong here. Best not do it at all. Jared On Wednesday 26 June 2002 19:28, Rachel Carmichael wrote: YO! JARED! has this gotten off-topic yet? since when is picking on Rachel part of the on topic list??? --- Joe Testa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, feel blessed, she stays during all of mine and asks bizarre questions :), like: If 2 control files are being updated at the same time and one is on raid-5 and the other on raid 0+1, which one will be finished updating first. joe Grabowy, Chris wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again - OT
You just can't forget about that dbms_output/trigger thing, can you? ;) Jared Grabowy, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/02/2002 10:51 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again - OT My sincere and humble apologies to Rachel, if my earlier email has offended her. That was not the intention. I believe myself and others that tease and pick on Rachel, do it out of respect and love for her, and would never intentionally mean to offend her. I do not know about other locations and cultures, but in my office we constantly pick and tease on each other. It is those who are never teased that have to worry... If I offend you then please do not hesitate to email me privately or publicly. sarcasm From now on I will just pick on Jared... /sarcasm -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 2:03 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Personal attacks certainly don't belong here. Best not do it at all. Jared On Wednesday 26 June 2002 19:28, Rachel Carmichael wrote: YO! JARED! has this gotten off-topic yet? since when is picking on Rachel part of the on topic list??? --- Joe Testa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, feel blessed, she stays during all of mine and asks bizarre questions :), like: If 2 control files are being updated at the same time and one is on raid-5 and the other on raid 0+1, which one will be finished updating first. joe Grabowy, Chris wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again - OT
My note must have been missing the smiley but you guys WERE picking on me :) (MOO make him stop! G) --- Grabowy, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My sincere and humble apologies to Rachel, if my earlier email has offended her. That was not the intention. I believe myself and others that tease and pick on Rachel, do it out of respect and love for her, and would never intentionally mean to offend her. I do not know about other locations and cultures, but in my office we constantly pick and tease on each other. It is those who are never teased that have to worry... If I offend you then please do not hesitate to email me privately or publicly. sarcasm From now on I will just pick on Jared... /sarcasm -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 2:03 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Personal attacks certainly don't belong here. Best not do it at all. Jared On Wednesday 26 June 2002 19:28, Rachel Carmichael wrote: YO! JARED! has this gotten off-topic yet? since when is picking on Rachel part of the on topic list??? --- Joe Testa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, feel blessed, she stays during all of mine and asks bizarre questions :), like: If 2 control files are being updated at the same time and one is on raid-5 and the other on raid 0+1, which one will be finished updating first. joe Grabowy, Chris wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again - OT
ok, ok...were even. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 1:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Grabowy, Chris You just can't forget about that dbms_output/trigger thing, can you? ;) Jared Grabowy, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/02/2002 10:51 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again - OT My sincere and humble apologies to Rachel, if my earlier email has offended her. That was not the intention. I believe myself and others that tease and pick on Rachel, do it out of respect and love for her, and would never intentionally mean to offend her. I do not know about other locations and cultures, but in my office we constantly pick and tease on each other. It is those who are never teased that have to worry... If I offend you then please do not hesitate to email me privately or publicly. sarcasm From now on I will just pick on Jared... /sarcasm -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 2:03 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Personal attacks certainly don't belong here. Best not do it at all. Jared On Wednesday 26 June 2002 19:28, Rachel Carmichael wrote: YO! JARED! has this gotten off-topic yet? since when is picking on Rachel part of the on topic list??? --- Joe Testa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, feel blessed, she stays during all of mine and asks bizarre questions :), like: If 2 control files are being updated at the same time and one is on raid-5 and the other on raid 0+1, which one will be finished updating first. joe Grabowy, Chris wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Personal attacks certainly don't belong here. Best not do it at all. Jared On Wednesday 26 June 2002 19:28, Rachel Carmichael wrote: YO! JARED! has this gotten off-topic yet? since when is picking on Rachel part of the on topic list??? --- Joe Testa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, feel blessed, she stays during all of mine and asks bizarre questions :), like: If 2 control files are being updated at the same time and one is on raid-5 and the other on raid 0+1, which one will be finished updating first. joe Grabowy, Chris wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
I absolutely am NOT saying that anyone with an OCP is incompetant, a bad person, or any other such thing. Some of the best DBAs I've known were OCP. Some weren't. Some of the very worst DBAs I've known were OCP. Some weren't. I simply think that its main value (other than the totally artifical value of being a common checklist item for hiring authorities now) is to get people to study, learn, and try things out. However, those things don't really require a certificate, ILT classes, or checks made out to Oracle. I agree that this thread is worn out. Don Granaman [OraSaurus] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:48 AM Good morning Don, I know that you are not suggesting that those with the OCP are bad persons. Listers, I suggest that we drop this topic now, since it might start to offend if it goes further. We all have much more in common that we have that divides us, and this topic is a downright silly thing to risk hurting each other over. It is worth far less than the harmony of this community. Jack OCPx4 --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From my experience with a few DBAs that waved their OCP around like it was a Nobel prize, some probably should have malpractice insurance. Lots of it. Don Granaman [Certifiable OraSaurus - NOCP] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 1:08 AM But doctors have malpractice insurance and OCP does not or do/should OCP have one too. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Don Granaman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jack Silvey INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Don Granaman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
My favourite question - because you need pretty much only this one to occupy the entire interview: Over there on the far wall is a 6x6m white board. Assuming the space is an 'Oracle database', start filling the blanks in terms of memory, disks, files, caches, buffer etc with all the connecting lines. Start broadly and continue generating more and more levels of detail until you want to stop or we want you to stop. We want to know your favourite and least favourite bits At the end you have a remarkable insight into: - their knowledge on oracle database + instance - their ability to convey information. We had one guy who drew a great level of detail but literally spent 50 mins with his back to us drawing with not a single word, after which he sat back down. - their ability to do it in front of a small audience (which I think is critical for a DBA - we don't want sit-in-the-corner-saying-nothing-zombies) - their pet peeves, for example, they'll be describing temp tspace and might throw in a man, i hate it when smon takes forever to clear up space or something to that effect - their priorities (if they spend half an hour on the spin_count parameter then maybe their barking up the wrong tree) - their honesty (one key element I look for is some point where they say I *DONT KNOW* how this bit relates to this bit) It is also very controllable - you can gently nudge them from one section of oracle to another - they might be describing redo logs and you can throw in so how would they get from here to a standby? etc etc. It normally works very well - although on one occasion we asked this of a candidate and he burst into tears and ran from the room :-( I went home feeling guilty...which eventually transformed itself into a sadistic and maniacal grin :-) Cheers Connor --- Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you should come out of lurk mode more often -- those are GOOD questions and I'm going to add them to the standard list :) --- Grant Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rachel Carmichael[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: this goes back to a thread from maybe a year ago... what sort of questions do you ask on interviews. I may ask other questions based on what we are specifically looking for or building off something the interviewee says but I always include the following questions: 1) what was your worst nightmare as a DBA and how did you resolve it 2) what are you most proud of doing 3) how do you learn new things about Oracle gee, not ONE multiple choice question among them! [stops lurking for a change] I always throw in What do you like most about Oracle? and What do you hate/find-frustrating about Oracle?. Most can answer the first, but you can often get a good idea of what people have (or haven't!) experienced with their answer to the second. Ciao Fuzzy :-) [goes back to lurking] -- Woo Hoo! - H. Simpson -- The contents of this post are my opinions only If swallowed seek medical advice (Apologies for the excess signature) This email message (and attachments) may contain information confidential to TOWER Software. If you are not the intended recipient you cannot use, distribute or copy the message or message attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by return email immediately and delete all copies of the message and attachments. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of TOWER Software, are not given or endorsed by it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grant Allen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
From my experience with a few DBAs that waved their OCP around like it was a Nobel prize, some probably should have malpractice insurance. Lots of it. Don Granaman [Certifiable OraSaurus - NOCP] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 1:08 AM But doctors have malpractice insurance and OCP does not or do/should OCP have one too. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Don Granaman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
What do you hate/find-frustrating about Oracle? (Let me count the ways... process terminated with ORA-22053) That could easily be the most revealing interview question ever conceived! I love it!!! I'm amazed at the number of times someone that is supposedly qualified can't answer a very simple, but unexpected, practical question. I used to always start out with a few indicator questions to determine strengths, weaknesses and which way to go. One such was If you find a file named 'afiedt.buf', how was it probably created? That particular question caught two very confident applicants without the foggiest clue a few years ago. One was the Oracle Wizard at his current company. (Seriously. It was the official job title on his business card! ... even though he had been out of college less than a year.) The other was an extremely smug 7 8 OCP DBBS who claimed many years of experience and opened our conversation, immediately after the handshake and introductions, with I'm one of the best Oracle DBAs around - if not THE best.. When I asked this question after a few minutes of pleasant generalities, his smirk disappeared, his jaw dropped and he just sat there staring at me with the best deer in the headlights look I've ever seen. [It must not have been in the Self Test Software Practice Exams or the Exam Cram books.] BTW: Grant: Can I buy that .sig from you? Don Granaman [OraSaurus NOCP] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 1:23 AM Rachel Carmichael[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: this goes back to a thread from maybe a year ago... what sort of questions do you ask on interviews. I may ask other questions based on what we are specifically looking for or building off something the interviewee says but I always include the following questions: 1) what was your worst nightmare as a DBA and how did you resolve it 2) what are you most proud of doing 3) how do you learn new things about Oracle gee, not ONE multiple choice question among them! [stops lurking for a change] I always throw in What do you like most about Oracle? and What do you hate/find-frustrating about Oracle?. Most can answer the first, but you can often get a good idea of what people have (or haven't!) experienced with their answer to the second. Ciao Fuzzy :-) [goes back to lurking] -- Woo Hoo! - H. Simpson -- The contents of this post are my opinions only If swallowed seek medical advice -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Don Granaman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
you should come out of lurk mode more often -- those are GOOD questions and I'm going to add them to the standard list :) --- Grant Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rachel Carmichael[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: this goes back to a thread from maybe a year ago... what sort of questions do you ask on interviews. I may ask other questions based on what we are specifically looking for or building off something the interviewee says but I always include the following questions: 1) what was your worst nightmare as a DBA and how did you resolve it 2) what are you most proud of doing 3) how do you learn new things about Oracle gee, not ONE multiple choice question among them! [stops lurking for a change] I always throw in What do you like most about Oracle? and What do you hate/find-frustrating about Oracle?. Most can answer the first, but you can often get a good idea of what people have (or haven't!) experienced with their answer to the second. Ciao Fuzzy :-) [goes back to lurking] -- Woo Hoo! - H. Simpson -- The contents of this post are my opinions only If swallowed seek medical advice (Apologies for the excess signature) This email message (and attachments) may contain information confidential to TOWER Software. If you are not the intended recipient you cannot use, distribute or copy the message or message attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by return email immediately and delete all copies of the message and attachments. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of TOWER Software, are not given or endorsed by it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grant Allen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
3) The third selection from the top on the Configuration menu of the RunAmok Technologies Defibrillator for Dummies (TM) is: a) voltage b) amperage c) frequency d) duration e) billing rate .. LOL! This is exactly the kind of thing that has discouraged me from the exams! Now, being a new Mommy doesn't allow me too much extra time and I get irritated by some of the nonsense! In the end, with the market the way it is, I will most likely try it anyway! Hannah -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
.. weaknesses and which way to go. One such was If you find a file named 'afiedt.buf', how was it probably created? That particular question caught two very confident applicants without the foggiest clue a few years ago. .. You GOTTA be kidding right? I consider this rank with the What is dual phenonmom recently.. Well, maybe there's hope for me after all! -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Certified -- schmertified; but that's gone over in detail. As someone who used to do some hiring I'd like to address the criticism of HR people. Yes, it's annoying when they put IT jargon in the hiring order and then have no idea what it is that they've asked for. However, they start the hiring process on everyone from the company courier to the PhD Information Scientist. Do you really expect them to know the details about the latest languages, network protocol, web usage, and Oracle? I think that that's a tall order. If they ask for Oracle 8i, tell them you have Oracle 8i. Save the version details for the technical interview. The HR person is often working from a list of specifications that were given to them. They also use resume processing software that is looking for specific hits on specific words. It's not the best of all worlds but it is the real world. Rajesh.Rao @jpmchase.comTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent by: root[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: the ora certified masters cert, 06/26/2002 yet again 06:23 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L This threads getting to be a lengthy one, and I might as well add my two cents to it. I too come from the same school of thought. That you are OCP certified holds no water with me. OK. So you are OCP Certified.That dont impress me much. One of my first questions, when I am asked to conduct an interview, is ask them to name some of the Oracle Gurus they have read about, to name some helpful Oracle sites, or some great white papers. The answers, almost always, tend to reflect the level of expertise. Jonathan Lewis, Steve Adams, Cary Millsap, Craig Shallahamer, Anjo Kolk, Tom Kyte, Kevin Loney, Rama Velupuri, Racheal Carmicheal, .. Sadly, my point of view differs from that of most recruiters. I know of an OCP who, when told that the developers were running out of temporary tablespace, put in a request with the SA to increase the disk space for /tmp. I also know of a HR personnel who rejected my resume coz I had no 8i experience. Sadly, my resume said 8.1.6, 8.1.7. Raj Not an OCP Certified DBA Whatever little I know, I owe it to my ignorance. Julia Phu julia_phu@rockeTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] tmail.com cc: Sent by:Subject: Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again [EMAIL PROTECTED] June 26, 2002 05:22 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Sorry, I can't help being quiet. I've no respect for the OCP. I saw MANY people bought the exams from many sources. These people memorize the questions and answers prior the test day. Voila, they pass the tests and still don't understand how to install and configure the database. I learned it on my job and am still learning. I took the 8i exam program and was EXTREMELY disappointed. I learned nothing. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thomas Day INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
I don't know - took me ages to figure out why 'afiedt.buf' sounded familiar, good thing I'm not job hunting... The 'Worst Oracle Nightmare' and Oracle Likes/Dislikes are sort of on my revision list when I'm jobhunting, even when it's just practice I find it focuses my mind on what I know and what I need to find out (And what I've forgotten) better than the multiple-choice exam questions Oracle offer. Most of us don't give presentations at the various OUG's, etc, but getting a good result at that interview is a good thing to aim for. Simon Anderson .. weaknesses and which way to go. One such was If you find a file named 'afiedt.buf', how was it probably created? That particular question caught two very confident applicants without the foggiest clue a few years ago. .. You GOTTA be kidding right? I consider this rank with the What is dual phenonmom recently.. Well, maybe there's hope for me after all! -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Good morning Don, I know that you are not suggesting that those with the OCP are bad persons. Listers, I suggest that we drop this topic now, since it might start to offend if it goes further. We all have much more in common that we have that divides us, and this topic is a downright silly thing to risk hurting each other over. It is worth far less than the harmony of this community. Jack OCPx4 --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From my experience with a few DBAs that waved their OCP around like it was a Nobel prize, some probably should have malpractice insurance. Lots of it. Don Granaman [Certifiable OraSaurus - NOCP] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 1:08 AM But doctors have malpractice insurance and OCP does not or do/should OCP have one too. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Don Granaman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jack Silvey INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
- Original Message - list of specifications that were given to them. They also use resume processing software that is looking for specific hits on specific words. That has always been the problem. Most of these things were written for jobs that have NOTHING to do with IT. Reminds me of the add here a few years ago, looking for people with 3 years experience in Forms 4. Came out two months BEFORE Oracle announced Forms 4... Says it all. It's not the best of all worlds but it is the real world. Indeed. Doesn't mean we have to take it in without at least making heaps of noise... Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
How about a newbie's point of view. I have been in IT for twelve years and the last year I have supported 1 Oracle database. Yes I know it's not much but at least it is a start. I have been lurking on this list for the past year and have learned a lot from all of you and been confused by all of you even more. I received certification for Novel Netware 3.x back in the late 80s when certification meant something. At the time I used that cert as a foundation to my knowledge. I made sure that I reminded myself constantly that I did not know all and that I can still learn much more. At the very least the process of certification gave the means of finding out where the problem was, it gave me direction. I will most likely get certified Oracle. Not because it will make me a genius as you all have pointed out but because it will give me a foundation. A learners permit, as someone has mentioned. I would be the first to say that I have years of hands on knowledge to acquire. Unfortunately, it is difficult to become a full time DBA without this experience. Hopefully the OCP will help me get my foot in the door and the rest is up to me and my mentors. Unfortunately, the certification idea has failed thanks to the many Microsnuff certs that have been handed out. We have to live in real world, the people who hire us and sign our pay checks are the same people who get swayed by Large company's marketing schemes of do things our way or fail as a business and as a human. Just my .01 worth (CDN $) Scott Hayes Systems Administrator THALES Optronics Canada Inc. 4868 rue Levy Ville St-Laurent, Quebec, H4R 2P1 Tel: (514) 337-7878 x.222 Fax: (514) 337-1107 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Hayes, Scott INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
I enjoyed this thread a lot and this is how I see it: If a company is hiring a DBA and they have no people with database experience to interview the candidates then probably any certification could be a factor here. Most of the companies that hire DBA are usually looking for a talent that adds a big value to the entire group. Talent usually means a person who has good database administration, development, data modeling, data architecture, performance tuning experience. Also they do not test if you can answer a question like What is the STORAGE CLAUSE but they asses your ability as person to learn, react, improve and lead a team. This kind of talent will never be judged by a certification or a single test but if it happened then I think this is probably will not be the right place to work for. Even companies that do not have database people to interview candidates they usually ask external people to do this for them. I was asked many times by many of my previous clients to interview people for them. Also I had the chance to interview OCP candidates. My experience is most of the people that went for OCP were people either changing careers or very junior. So as long you have the confidence that you can market yourself and your skills then certification means nothing but if you have nothing to sell then probably buying a certificate could help. Regards, Waleed Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 12:23 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L - Original Message - list of specifications that were given to them. They also use resume processing software that is looking for specific hits on specific words. That has always been the problem. Most of these things were written for jobs that have NOTHING to do with IT. Reminds me of the add here a few years ago, looking for people with 3 years experience in Forms 4. Came out two months BEFORE Oracle announced Forms 4... Says it all. It's not the best of all worlds but it is the real world. Indeed. Doesn't mean we have to take it in without at least making heaps of noise... Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Khedr, Waleed INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Thomas - I think you've hit the nail on the head. Reminds me of a line from the Godfather. The old Don is dying and giving his son advice on how to deal with the other Mafia gangs. He says Don't make them guess what you're up to. They aren't good guessers. Consider HR an obstacle to get past so you can get to the interview and show your stuff. You won't get that chance if your resume ends up in the future reference file. Make their job easy. Put the information they will be scanning for, like Oracle, in bold letters. Dennis Williams DBA, 20% OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 9:08 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Certified -- schmertified; but that's gone over in detail. As someone who used to do some hiring I'd like to address the criticism of HR people. Yes, it's annoying when they put IT jargon in the hiring order and then have no idea what it is that they've asked for. However, they start the hiring process on everyone from the company courier to the PhD Information Scientist. Do you really expect them to know the details about the latest languages, network protocol, web usage, and Oracle? I think that that's a tall order. If they ask for Oracle 8i, tell them you have Oracle 8i. Save the version details for the technical interview. The HR person is often working from a list of specifications that were given to them. They also use resume processing software that is looking for specific hits on specific words. It's not the best of all worlds but it is the real world. Rajesh.Rao @jpmchase.comTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent by: root[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: the ora certified masters cert, 06/26/2002 yet again 06:23 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L This threads getting to be a lengthy one, and I might as well add my two cents to it. I too come from the same school of thought. That you are OCP certified holds no water with me. OK. So you are OCP Certified.That dont impress me much. One of my first questions, when I am asked to conduct an interview, is ask them to name some of the Oracle Gurus they have read about, to name some helpful Oracle sites, or some great white papers. The answers, almost always, tend to reflect the level of expertise. Jonathan Lewis, Steve Adams, Cary Millsap, Craig Shallahamer, Anjo Kolk, Tom Kyte, Kevin Loney, Rama Velupuri, Racheal Carmicheal, .. Sadly, my point of view differs from that of most recruiters. I know of an OCP who, when told that the developers were running out of temporary tablespace, put in a request with the SA to increase the disk space for /tmp. I also know of a HR personnel who rejected my resume coz I had no 8i experience. Sadly, my resume said 8.1.6, 8.1.7. Raj Not an OCP Certified DBA Whatever little I know, I owe it to my ignorance. Julia Phu julia_phu@rockeTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] tmail.com cc: Sent by:Subject: Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again [EMAIL PROTECTED] June 26, 2002 05:22 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Sorry, I can't help being quiet. I've no respect for the OCP. I saw MANY people bought the exams from many sources. These people memorize the questions and answers prior the test day. Voila, they pass the tests and still don't understand how to install and configure the database. I learned it on my job and am still learning. I took the 8i exam program and was EXTREMELY disappointed. I learned nothing. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thomas Day INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Waleed, Without wanting to cause offence here (honestly!) I couldn't disagree more with this. At least in the UK right now the Oracle job market is VERY tight. We already have to compete with people padding their CVs and bluffing their way into interviews (a practice which I'm pathologically incapable of). There is a genuine demand for those 3 letters on a CV. Agencies are getting 200 applications for each job. Talent does not make you stand out from the crowd. At least a couple of times in the VERY recent past I've gone through my CV with recruiters and they've been pleased that I'm certified because it's in the job spec. that they've been given. Maybe in easier times it's possible to rely on your ability. I agree that in a perfect world that would always be the case. These are dark days though and you have to use EVERYTHING. If you can't get into an interview you can't prove your skills. Kevin, I sympathise totally. These are hard times. I think you have to decide whether the outlay's worth it on a commercial basis rather than an intellectual one. I don't care how much the certification is devalued if it makes the difference between missing and getting an interview. For what it's worth my total outlay for 7.3, 8, 8i and 9i has been the cost of the 7 exams (discounted because I was a Technet member) and a 9i New Features book. I took the exams over lunch. And I think I've had my money's worth. Finally re. HR departments and agencies. They won't work harder than they need to. Why would they? They deal with hundreds of different sets of skills. Why would they care if 8.1.6 is 8i? They'll do a pattern match and phone the best matches. Hell, I'd do the same myself. The alternative is painstaking and (at least for agencies) would ensure they went out of business. It's nearing the end of the day here. If you were geographically closer I'd buy you all a drink. regards to all, Mike -Original Message- Sent: 27 June 2002 18:18 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L snip So as long you have the confidence that you can market yourself and your skills then certification means nothing but if you have nothing to sell then probably buying a certificate could help. Regards, Waleed This email and any attached to it are confidential and intended only for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please let us know by telephoning or emailing the sender. You should also delete the email and any attachment from your systems and should not copy the email or any attachment or disclose their content to any other person or entity. The views expressed here are not necessarily those of Churchill Insurance Group plc or its affiliates or subsidiaries. Thank you. Churchill Insurance Group plc. Company Registration Number - 2280426. England. Registered Office: Churchill Court, Westmoreland Road, Bromley, Kent BR1 1DP. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Hately Mike INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Title: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Wow, I guess Tom Hanks was right! All of the the answers to life even theOCP CAN be found in the Godfather! hehehehehhe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Don Granaman[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: What do you hate/find-frustrating about Oracle? (Let me count the ways... process terminated with ORA-22053) That could easily be the most revealing interview question ever conceived! I love it!!! It works wonderfully for me. I've seen a few faces go completely blank ... and a few go cherry-red as they start frothing at the mouth mumbling ORA-00600 ... ORA-01555 It's almost like free therapy for them :-) I'm amazed at the number of times someone that is supposedly qualified can't answer a very simple, but unexpected, practical question. I used to always start out with a few indicator questions to determine strengths, weaknesses and which way to go. One such was If you find a file named 'afiedt.buf', how was it probably created? That particular question caught two very confident applicants without the foggiest clue a few years ago. One was the Oracle Wizard at his current company. (Seriously. It was the official job title on his business card! ... even though he had been out of college less than a year.) The other was an extremely smug 7 8 OCP DBBS who claimed many years of experience and opened our conversation, immediately after the handshake and introductions, with I'm one of the best Oracle DBAs around - if not THE best.. When I asked this question after a few minutes of pleasant generalities, his smirk disappeared, his jaw dropped and he just sat there staring at me with the best deer in the headlights look I've ever seen. [It must not have been in the Self Test Software Practice Exams or the Exam Cram books.] I laughed a lot at that ... not least because I'd been an Oracle DBA for three or four years before someone mentioned edit in SQL*Plus, and I said ... Edit?! You mean this piece-of-[expletive] has an edit command!? WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME!?. Needless to say I then went and read the manual. BTW: Grant: Can I buy that .sig from you? I'll do you a trade :-) Ciao Fuzzy :-) -- Woo Hoo! - H. Simpson -- The contents of this post are my opinions only If swallowed seek medical advice (Apologies for the excess signature) This email message (and attachments) may contain information confidential to TOWER Software. If you are not the intended recipient you cannot use, distribute or copy the message or message attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by return email immediately and delete all copies of the message and attachments. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of TOWER Software, are not given or endorsed by it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grant Allen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
I don't know. Sort of makes me feel like a poodle. Henry - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 9:13 AM The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Hmmm... Within the last two days I saw a news blurb that said there are now 113,000 OCPs - up from ~60,000 two (?) years ago. I imagine the a non-trivial number of these went through the entire ILT schedule to get there. I'm not sure exactly what this new OCP ILT requirement is, but I'd venture a guess that it isn't some new course developed entirely from scratch. Look at what the OCM requires in the way of ILT - two additional existing courses (and they aren't very picky about which). So, it sounds like ~26,000 new OCPs per year. True, this isn't likely to cause their stock price to double, but I do think it is much more about revenue rather providing useful certification. How else could requiring a $2,000 ILT class be justified? (My understanding is that it is a class, not a practicum exam). Also, this is just the beginning. I'd bet that future certifications will up the ante on this Oracle ILT requirement. Perhaps by 10i (11i?), the OCP will become more like the Oracle Masters deal - more required ILT courses and simpler exams with heavier emphasis on the GUI tools and whatever esoteric features Oracle is pushing at the time. Think of it this way: Possible Oracle10i OCP requirements: 1) Four weeks of Oracle ILT @ ~$2000 / week for a new OCP 2) Two weeks of Oracle ILT for an upgrade 3) Some exams that are easily passed by regurgitating the ILT - flaws and all Assume 100,000 people want a 10i OCP. Assume that 30% are new and 70% are upgrades. (Wild guesses all.) 100,000 * [(0.30 * 4 * $2000) + (0.70 * 2 * $2000)] = $520,000,000 That doesn't include OCM or OCW (Oracle Certified Wizard) which add to the ILT requirements - and revenue. I can't imagine Oracle promoting anything so heavily if they only break even. (Does anyone else remember the Oracle Developer Programme? Evidently, it didn't turn out to be the cash cow it was expected to be, so it quietly disappeared. Don't know about anyone else, but I didn't get a refund.) Don Granaman [Curmudgeon OraSaurus] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:28 AM Putting on my cost accounting hat I'd like to say this. At $2,000 a pop and probably with a small group of people attending these classes, Oracle would be lucky to break even. The costs of developing, hardware and staff to proctor these exams are very high. A lot of people would have to take this test for Oracle to break even. A thousand test takers in a year would only generate $2,000,000 in sales which wouldn't even show up on their financial statements. My $0.02 as a former cost accountant, Ken Janusz, CPIM - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:08 AM They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
the they I referred to is IOUG haven't decided if I want to take the 9i upgrade. Part of me wants to continue the not worked with it, passed the test streak, part of me says who gives a flying fig anyway --- Orr, Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who are they? So are you going to take the 9i test? :-) -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 6:15 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Importance: High they tried for an independent set of tests Chauncey certification, which Oracle was quick to denigrate. Those tests, while not perfect (I wanted to be able to get INTO the database myself, not look at canned views of what was in there) were developed by DBAs in the real world, and were much more reflective of what knowledge you needed to function as a production DBA for a corporation. --- Orr, Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I always enjoy your posts Ian. Seems to me like schmoozing has been involved so maybe OCM should stand for Oracly Certifiable Marketeer. I like Rachel's point that the tests reflect what Oracle is currently pushing and not what real DBA work is about. Even though they are probably the most objective way to measure knowledge en mass, good tests are difficult to create and maintain. The problem is that the current tests are not very good. Why are we so dependent on Oracle Corporation for this anyway? It would be nice if IOUG could come up with a good set of tests without any input from Oracle Corporation. Sharing amongst peers and helping users in their professional development with Oracle database technology... Isn't that part of the IOUG charter? Am I expecting too much of IOUG? Or are we collectively demanding too little? If it were done well, an independent set of tests could gain respect among the HR headhunter folks. Or we could just continue with the current compromise... Steve Orr -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further a correct understanding of Oracle. Authors take the time to put what they believe to be true on paper. It's often what they have been told, not what they have learned on their own. Richard Niemiec's sp? tuning books have been trashed recently because they tout buffer hit ratios; however there was a consensus in the Oracle community that these were important. It took Cary Millsap's paper and a new tuning paradigm introduced by Gaja Vaidyanatha, Kirtikumar Deshpande, and John Kostelac Jr. to direct us to something more useful. Personally, I was using wait events before Gaja's book, but I was also trying to keep the hit ratio's high as a part of the consensus. If I had written a book before seeing Cary's pap! er! ! , it would have touted hit ratios. I don't believe Oracle 101 Performance Tuning is a perfect book; it doesn't properly address data collection needs. Why would authorship and presentations be worth more than an OCP? The OCP says that you have achieved a standard. One can debate whether that standard has any meaning. There is no standard at all for authors/presenters. It does seem however that many OCP holders know far less than their certificate would indicate, and some authors are more expert than their books convey. A good author of Oracle tomes and presentations needs a clearer understanding of the subject matter than an OCP. Good authors hold themselves to higher standards than needed to be called an OCP. I just want to point out that not all authors are good authors, and that there are OCP holders who have not written books that are as if not more knowlegeable than most authors. There are people who have done neither who know as much if not more than both. The OCM was introduced for two reasons. Oracle is in business to make money and wanted another revenue stream, and the standards one must meet to become an OCP were being questioned. Unfortunately at last years IOUG-A conference the six people who were given their OCM's were touted as the six most knowledgeable Oracle experts in th world. The awardees did not include Gaja, nor Kirti, nor Anjo Kolk, nor Steve Adams, nor Jonathan Lewis, nor Guy Harrison, nor Larry Elkins... Indeed only one person on the awarded the OCM would I have placed in any top six list, and that's Paul Dorsey who is extremely knowlegeable concerning Oracle's development tools. There were some awardees I know nothing about. Despite this over-the-top rollout, the OCM under
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Well that explains a lot. In a separate post Rachel also said Oracle denigrated the prior Chauncey/IOUG tests so it's obvious that Oracle is just using testing and certification as another source of revenue. Professional Development of the DBA community is just marketing hype. All the more reason to avoid the 9i tests. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Importance: High The original certification program was developed by IOUG when Mike Corey was president of the group. I cannot remember if the program ever certified anyone other than those who built it. Once Oracle had its own certification program the IOUG one withered. The relationship between ORACLE and its user groups have not always been friendly. The OAUG's complaints have made the national press. If my memory serves, and its already been shown to be faulty, the first OOW-Americas was scheduled to be at the same time as the IOUG-A. Corey indicated he was going to see Ellison and explain to him that he couldn't do such a thing, that OOW-Americas would have to be rescheduled. Ellison was not moved, neither was the OOW-Americas conference; the IOUG-A get together was :) To its credit IOUG-A live is seen as a more credible than the marketing show known as OOW. However I doubt the conference would maintain its value if Oracle sent no one. If the IOUG had a competing certification program, Oracle would do its best to snuff it out. Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Seems nobody's left quiet. :) Personally, I don't want to be obstinate. I wouldn't avoid certification only because I think (and yes, I do) it's all about the Oracle's revenue and nothing about professional knowledge. Works for Oracle - fine, glad for them. As side effect I can have increase in personal revenue and that's what I care about. That's what I count on. Well, that's my point here. Alexandre - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:33 PM Well that explains a lot. In a separate post Rachel also said Oracle denigrated the prior Chauncey/IOUG tests so it's obvious that Oracle is just using testing and certification as another source of revenue. Professional Development of the DBA community is just marketing hype. All the more reason to avoid the 9i tests. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Importance: High The original certification program was developed by IOUG when Mike Corey was president of the group. I cannot remember if the program ever certified anyone other than those who built it. Once Oracle had its own certification program the IOUG one withered. The relationship between ORACLE and its user groups have not always been friendly. The OAUG's complaints have made the national press. If my memory serves, and its already been shown to be faulty, the first OOW-Americas was scheduled to be at the same time as the IOUG-A. Corey indicated he was going to see Ellison and explain to him that he couldn't do such a thing, that OOW-Americas would have to be rescheduled. Ellison was not moved, neither was the OOW-Americas conference; the IOUG-A get together was :) To its credit IOUG-A live is seen as a more credible than the marketing show known as OOW. However I doubt the conference would maintain its value if Oracle sent no one. If the IOUG had a competing certification program, Oracle would do its best to snuff it out. Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Alexandre Gorbatchev INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
stands up nervously in front of the rest of the group, as it is his first time at the NOCP meeting Hi, my name is Lee, and I am not an Oracle certified professional attempts to sit back down, whilst being hugged and slapped on the back, cheers echo around the room -Original Message- Sent: 26 June 2002 15:33 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well that explains a lot. In a separate post Rachel also said Oracle denigrated the prior Chauncey/IOUG tests so it's obvious that Oracle is just using testing and certification as another source of revenue. Professional Development of the DBA community is just marketing hype. All the more reason to avoid the 9i tests. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Importance: High The original certification program was developed by IOUG when Mike Corey was president of the group. I cannot remember if the program ever certified anyone other than those who built it. Once Oracle had its own certification program the IOUG one withered. The relationship between ORACLE and its user groups have not always been friendly. The OAUG's complaints have made the national press. If my memory serves, and its already been shown to be faulty, the first OOW-Americas was scheduled to be at the same time as the IOUG-A. Corey indicated he was going to see Ellison and explain to him that he couldn't do such a thing, that OOW-Americas would have to be rescheduled. Ellison was not moved, neither was the OOW-Americas conference; the IOUG-A get together was :) To its credit IOUG-A live is seen as a more credible than the marketing show known as OOW. However I doubt the conference would maintain its value if Oracle sent no one. If the IOUG had a competing certification program, Oracle would do its best to snuff it out. Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. Thank You. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Robertson Lee - lerobe INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further a correct understanding of Oracle. Authors take the time to put what they believe to be true on paper. It's often what they have been told, not what they have learned on their own. Richard Niemiec's sp? tuning books have been trashed recently because they tout buffer hit ratios; however there was a consensus in the Oracle community that these were important. It took Cary Millsap's paper and a new tuning paradigm introduced by Gaja Vaidyanatha, Kirtikumar Deshpande, and John Kostelac Jr. to direct us to something more useful. Personally, I was using wait events before Gaja's book, but I was also trying to keep the hit ratio's high as a part of the consensus. If I had written a book before seeing Cary's paper! ! , it would have touted hit ratios. I don't believe Oracle 101 Performance Tuning is a perfect book; it doesn't properly address data collection needs. Why would authorship and presentations be worth more than an OCP? The OCP says that you have achieved a standard. One can debate whether that standard has any meaning. There is no standard at all for authors/presenters. It does seem however that many OCP holders know far less than their certificate would indicate, and some authors are more expert than their books convey. A good author of Oracle tomes and presentations needs a clearer understanding of the subject matter than an OCP. Good authors hold themselves to higher standards than needed to be called an OCP. I just want to point out that not all authors are good authors, and that there are OCP holders who have not written books that are as if not more knowlegeable than most authors. There are people who have done neither who know as much if not more than both. The OCM was introduced for two reasons. Oracle is in business to make money and wanted another revenue stream, and the standards one must meet to become an OCP were being questioned. Unfortunately at last years IOUG-A conference the six people who were given their OCM's were touted as the six most knowledgeable Oracle experts in th world. The awardees did not include Gaja, nor Kirti, nor Anjo Kolk, nor Steve Adams, nor Jonathan Lewis, nor Guy Harrison, nor Larry Elkins... Indeed only one person on the awarded the OCM would I have placed in any top six list, and that's Paul Dorsey who is extremely knowlegeable concerning Oracle's development tools. There were some awardees I know nothing about. Despite this over-the-top rollout, the OCM under proper care could become a certification with real meaning, by that I mean more important than being an author or a presenter Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Acclerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:17 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel has really baiting me on this one, as she is well aware of my position on certifications, especially Oracle's. I watched some of this thread start and laughed. Vendor-sponsored certifications are no more valuable to the marketplace than the software they claim is 100% bug free. This is especially true when the vendor pushes the certification out to the market for next to nothing and then complains that the industry sees
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Hi Lee, my name is Mike. I've been taking OCP exams for almost 3 years now. I've tried to stop a few times but my lots of my friends take the exams too and I find I just get dragged along. I recognise I have a problem but I want to get better. Sits down. Someone strikes a tuning fork and the whole group begins singing How Certified I Am Mike -Original Message- Sent: 26 June 2002 16:28 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L stands up nervously in front of the rest of the group, as it is his first time at the NOCP meeting Hi, my name is Lee, and I am not an Oracle certified professional attempts to sit back down, whilst being hugged and slapped on the back, cheers echo around the room This email and any attached to it are confidential and intended only for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please let us know by telephoning or emailing the sender. You should also delete the email and any attachment from your systems and should not copy the email or any attachment or disclose their content to any other person or entity. The views expressed here are not necessarily those of Churchill Insurance Group plc or its affiliates or subsidiaries. Thank you. Churchill Insurance Group plc. Company Registration Number - 2280426. England. Registered Office: Churchill Court, Westmoreland Road, Bromley, Kent BR1 1DP. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Hately Mike INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores, and... Unfortunately, there is no reliable correlation between giving bad information and getting horrible scores, at either conference. Some of the best-ranked presentations in Oracle conference history have been some of the most damaging. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic, Jul 9-11 New York City - Hotsos Clinic, Jul 23-25 Chicago - 2003 Hotsos Symposium on OracleR System Performance, Feb 9-12 Dallas -Original Message- Ian A. Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further a correct understanding of Oracle. Authors take the time to put what they believe to be true on paper. It's often what they have been told, not what they have learned on their own. Richard Niemiec's sp? tuning books have been trashed recently because they tout buffer hit ratios; however there was a consensus in the Oracle community that these were important. It took Cary Millsap's paper and a new tuning paradigm introduced by Gaja Vaidyanatha, Kirtikumar Deshpande, and John Kostelac Jr. to direct us to something more useful. Personally, I was using wait events before Gaja's book, but I was also trying to keep the hit ratio's high as a part of the consensus. If I had written a book before seeing Cary's paper! ! , it would have touted hit ratios. I don't believe Oracle 101 Performance Tuning is a perfect book; it doesn't properly address data collection needs. Why would authorship and presentations be worth more than an OCP? The OCP says that you have achieved a standard. One can debate whether that standard has any meaning. There is no standard at all for authors/presenters. It does seem however that many OCP holders know far less than their certificate would indicate, and some authors are more expert than their books convey. A good author of Oracle tomes and presentations needs a clearer understanding of the subject matter than an OCP. Good authors hold themselves to higher standards than needed to be called an OCP. I just want to point out that not all authors are good authors, and that there are OCP holders who have not written books that are as if not more knowlegeable than most authors. There are people who have done neither who know as much if not more than both. The OCM was introduced for two reasons. Oracle is in business to make money and wanted another revenue stream, and the standards one must meet to become an OCP were being questioned. Unfortunately at last years IOUG-A conference the six people who were given their OCM's were touted as the six most knowledgeable Oracle experts in th world. The awardees did not include Gaja, nor Kirti, nor Anjo Kolk, nor Steve Adams, nor Jonathan Lewis, nor Guy Harrison, nor Larry Elkins... Indeed only one person on the awarded the OCM would I have placed in any top six list, and that's Paul Dorsey who is extremely knowlegeable concerning Oracle's development tools. There were some awardees I know nothing about. Despite this over-the-top rollout, the OCM under proper care could become a certification with real meaning, by that I mean more important than being an author or a presenter
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
TOO FUNNY! I am rolling over here... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:28 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L stands up nervously in front of the rest of the group, as it is his first time at the NOCP meeting Hi, my name is Lee, and I am not an Oracle certified professional attempts to sit back down, whilst being hugged and slapped on the back, cheers echo around the room -Original Message- Sent: 26 June 2002 15:33 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well that explains a lot. In a separate post Rachel also said Oracle denigrated the prior Chauncey/IOUG tests so it's obvious that Oracle is just using testing and certification as another source of revenue. Professional Development of the DBA community is just marketing hype. All the more reason to avoid the 9i tests. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Importance: High The original certification program was developed by IOUG when Mike Corey was president of the group. I cannot remember if the program ever certified anyone other than those who built it. Once Oracle had its own certification program the IOUG one withered. The relationship between ORACLE and its user groups have not always been friendly. The OAUG's complaints have made the national press. If my memory serves, and its already been shown to be faulty, the first OOW-Americas was scheduled to be at the same time as the IOUG-A. Corey indicated he was going to see Ellison and explain to him that he couldn't do such a thing, that OOW-Americas would have to be rescheduled. Ellison was not moved, neither was the OOW-Americas conference; the IOUG-A get together was :) To its credit IOUG-A live is seen as a more credible than the marketing show known as OOW. However I doubt the conference would maintain its value if Oracle sent no one. If the IOUG had a competing certification program, Oracle would do its best to snuff it out. Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. Thank You. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Robertson Lee - lerobe INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grabowy, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
ratings are based not just on presentation style but also on technical content, speakers (apparent) knowledge on the subject being presented, quality of presentation materials and I can't remember what else. rating cards also include a section for comments. --- MacGregor, Ian A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further a correct understanding of Oracle. Authors take the time to put what they believe to be true on paper. It's often what they have been told, not what they have learned on their own. Richard Niemiec's sp? tuning books have been trashed recently because they tout buffer hit ratios; however there was a consensus in the Oracle community that these were important. It took Cary Millsap's paper and a new tuning paradigm introduced by Gaja Vaidyanatha, Kirtikumar Deshpande, and John Kostelac Jr. to direct us to something more useful. Personally, I was using wait events before Gaja's book, but I was also trying to keep the hit ratio's high as a part of the consensus. If I had written a book before seeing Cary's paper! ! , it would have touted hit ratios. I don't believe Oracle 101 Performance Tuning is a perfect book; it doesn't properly address data collection needs. Why would authorship and presentations be worth more than an OCP? The OCP says that you have achieved a standard. One can debate whether that standard has any meaning. There is no standard at all for authors/presenters. It does seem however that many OCP holders know far less than their certificate would indicate, and some authors are more expert than their books convey. A good author of Oracle tomes and presentations needs a clearer understanding of the subject matter than an OCP. Good authors hold themselves to higher standards than needed to be called an OCP. I just want to point out that not all authors are good authors, and that there are OCP holders who have not written books that are as if not more knowlegeable than most authors. There are people who have done neither who know as much if not more than both. The OCM was introduced for two reasons. Oracle is in business to make money and wanted another revenue stream, and the standards one must meet to become an OCP were being questioned. Unfortunately at last years IOUG-A conference the six people who were given their OCM's were touted as the six most knowledgeable Oracle experts in th world. The awardees did not include Gaja, nor Kirti, nor Anjo Kolk, nor Steve Adams, nor Jonathan Lewis, nor Guy Harrison, nor Larry Elkins... Indeed only one person on the awarded the OCM would I have placed in any top six list, and that's Paul Dorsey who is extremely knowlegeable concerning Oracle's development tools. There were some awardees I know nothing about. Despite this over-the-top rollout, the OCM under proper care could become a certification with real meaning, by that I mean more important than being an author or a presenter Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Acclerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:17 AM To: Multiple
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Title: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at many conferences, including the IOUG and SEOUC. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Doing linear scans over an associative array is like trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi. - Larry Wall (creator of Perl) -Original Message- From: MacGregor, Ian A. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further a correct understanding of Oracle. Authors take the time to put what they believe to be true on paper. It's often what they have been told, not what they have learned on their own. Richard Niemiec's sp? tuning books have been trashed recently because they tout buffer hit ratios; however there was a consensus in the Oracle community that these were important. It took Cary Millsap's paper and a new tuning paradigm introduced by Gaja Vaidyanatha, Kirtikumar Deshpande, and John Kostelac Jr. to direct us to something more useful. Personally, I was using wait events before Gaja's book, but I was also trying to keep the hit ratio's high as a part of the consensus. If I had written a book before seeing Cary's paper! ! , it would have touted hit ratios. I don't believe Oracle 101 Performance Tuning is a perfect book; it doesn't properly address data collection needs. Why would authorship and presentations be worth more than an OCP? The OCP says that you have achieved a standard. One can debate whether that standard has any meaning. There is no standard at all for authors/presenters. It does seem however that many OCP holders know far less than their certificate would indicate, and some authors are more expert than their books convey. A good author of Oracle tomes and presentations needs a clearer understanding of the subject matter than an OCP. Good authors hold themselves to higher standards than needed to be called an OCP. I just want to point out that not all authors are good authors, and that there are OCP holders who have not written books that are as if not more knowlegeable than most authors. There are people who have done neither who know as much if not more than both. The OCM was introduced for two reasons. Oracle is in business to make money and wanted another revenue stream, and the standards one must meet to become an OCP were being questioned. Unfortunately at last years IOUG-A conference the six people who were given their OCM's were touted as the six most knowledgeable Oracle experts in th world. The awardees did not include Gaja, nor Kirti, nor Anjo Kolk, nor Steve Adams, nor Jonathan Lewis, nor Guy Harrison, nor Larry Elkins... Indeed only one person on the awarded the OCM would I have placed in any top six list, and that's Paul Dorsey who is extremely knowlegeable concerning Oracle's development tools. There were some awardees I know nothing about. Despite this over-the-top rollout, the OCM under proper care could become a certification with real meaning, by that I mean more important than being an author or a presenter Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Acclerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Title: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it wont a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- From: Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at many conferences, including the IOUG and SEOUC. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Doing linear scans over an associative array is like trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi. - Larry Wall (creator of Perl) -Original Message- From: MacGregor, Ian A. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further a correct understanding of Oracle. Authors take the time to put what they believe to be true on paper. It's often what they have been told, not what they have learned on their own. Richard Niemiec's sp? tuning books have been trashed recently because they tout buffer hit ratios; however there was a consensus in the Oracle community that these were important. It took Cary Millsap's paper and a new tuning paradigm introduced by Gaja Vaidyanatha, Kirtikumar Deshpande, and John Kostelac Jr. to direct us to something more useful. Personally, I was using wait events before Gaja's book, but I was also trying to keep the hit ratio's high as a part of the consensus. If I had written a book before seeing Cary's paper! ! , it would have touted hit ratios. I don't believe Oracle 101 Performance Tuning is a perfect book; it doesn't properly address data collection needs. Why would authorship and presentations be worth more than an OCP? The OCP says that you have achieved a standard. One can debate whether that standard has any meaning. There is no standard at all for authors/presenters. It does seem however that many OCP holders know far less than their certificate would indicate, and some authors are more expert than their books convey. A good author of Oracle tomes and presentations needs a clearer understanding of the subject matter than an OCP. Good authors hold themselves to higher standards than needed to be called an OCP. I just want to point out that not all authors are good authors
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Yeh, but he is the Prez ... :) Paul -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores, and... Unfortunately, there is no reliable correlation between giving bad information and getting horrible scores, at either conference. Some of the best-ranked presentations in Oracle conference history have been some of the most damaging. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic, Jul 9-11 New York City - Hotsos Clinic, Jul 23-25 Chicago - 2003 Hotsos Symposium on OracleR System Performance, Feb 9-12 Dallas -Original Message- Ian A. Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further a correct understanding of Oracle. Authors take the time to put what they believe to be true on paper. It's often what they have been told, not what they have learned on their own. Richard Niemiec's sp? tuning books have been trashed recently because they tout buffer hit ratios; however there was a consensus in the Oracle community that these were important. It took Cary Millsap's paper and a new tuning paradigm introduced by Gaja Vaidyanatha, Kirtikumar Deshpande, and John Kostelac Jr. to direct us to something more useful. Personally, I was using wait events before Gaja's book, but I was also trying to keep the hit ratio's high as a part of the consensus. If I had written a book before seeing Cary's paper! ! , it would have touted hit ratios. I don't believe Oracle 101 Performance Tuning is a perfect book; it doesn't properly address data collection needs. Why would authorship and presentations be worth more than an OCP? The OCP says that you have achieved a standard. One can debate whether that standard has any meaning. There is no standard at all for authors/presenters. It does seem however that many OCP holders know far less than their certificate would indicate, and some authors are more expert than their books convey. A good author of Oracle tomes and presentations needs a clearer understanding of the subject matter than an OCP. Good authors hold themselves to higher standards than needed to be called an OCP. I just want to point out that not all authors are good authors, and that there are OCP holders who have not written books that are as if not more knowlegeable than most authors. There are people who have done neither who know as much if not more than both. The OCM was introduced for two reasons. Oracle is in business to make money and wanted another revenue stream, and the standards one must meet to become an OCP were being questioned. Unfortunately at last years IOUG-A conference the six people who were given their OCM's were touted as the six most knowledgeable Oracle experts in th world. The awardees did not include Gaja, nor Kirti, nor Anjo Kolk, nor Steve Adams, nor Jonathan Lewis, nor Guy Harrison, nor Larry Elkins... Indeed only one person on the awarded the OCM would I have placed in any top six list, and that's Paul Dorsey who is extremely knowlegeable concerning Oracle's development tools. There were some awardees I know nothing about. Despite this over-the-top rollout
Presentations was RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
The ratings are all dependent upon the audience's perception. There are times when the entertainment value overwhelms the accuracy and/or content. It seems that the beginning topics tend to be more style than substance, where the advance topics can get overwhelmed in minute details. IMHO, I want those details when I attend a session about Oracle Internal Myths, The Wait Interface or Touch Count Algorithm. As a newbie, I would have been frustrated with that level of detail in an intro Backup Recovery talk. Over time, I have learned that there are certain speaker's/company's presentations that are not to be missed, while others I avoid. Unfortunately, it took several years and some mistakes to discover the error. I feel the same about training. As attendees, it is our responsibility to fill out the comment cards with constructive and accurate impressions. If there is a speaker/presentation that is on either end of the spectrum, we should tell the conference organizers. Each speaker was a newbie at one time or another and our feedback to the speaker and conference organizers will make a strong impression as to whether or not the person should be invited back. In lieu of specific comments, the organizers look at attendance. Joe Schmoe's BR talk (while extremely accurate but dry as day old toast) had 40 attendees at the start and 4 at the end. Jane Doe's BR talk (very superficial and somewhat inaccurate, but highly entertaining) had 400 attendees who stayed to the end. Who will the conference invite next year? If you want to make a real difference, volunteer to be on the paper selection committees. Daniel W. Fink Sr. Oracle DBA MICROMEDEX 303.486.6456 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Fink, Dan INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Title: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]We have enough youth.How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message-From: Karniotis, Stephen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it wont a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message-From: Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at many conferences, including the IOUG and SEOUC. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Doing linear scans over an associative array is like trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi." - Larry Wall (creator of Perl) -Original Message- From: MacGregor, Ian A. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- "Karniotis, Stephen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further a correct understanding of Oracle. Authors take the time to put what they believe to be true on paper. It's often what they have been told, not what they have learned on their own. Richard Niemiec's sp? tuning books have been trashed recently because they tout buffer hit ratios; however there was a consensus in the Oracle community that these were important. It took Cary Millsap's paper and a new tuning paradigm introduced by Gaja Vaidyanatha, Kirtikumar Deshpande, and John Kostelac Jr. to direct us to something more useful. Personally, I was using wait events before Gaja's book, but I was also trying to keep the hit ratio's high as a part of the "consensus". If I had written a book before seeing Cary's paper! ! , it would have touted hit ratios. I don't believe "Oracle 101 Performance Tuning" is a perfect book; it doesn't properly address data collection needs. Why would authorship and presentations be worth more than an OCP? The OCP says that you have achieved a standard. One c
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at many conferences, including the IOUG and SEOUC. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Doing linear scans over an associative array is like trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi. - Larry Wall (creator of Perl) -Original Message- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further a correct understanding of Oracle. Authors take the time to put what they believe to be true on paper. It's often what they have been told, not what they have learned on their own. Richard Niemiec's sp? tuning books have been trashed recently because they tout buffer hit ratios; however there was a consensus in the Oracle community that these were important. It took Cary Millsap's paper and a new tuning paradigm introduced by Gaja Vaidyanatha, Kirtikumar Deshpande, and John Kostelac Jr. to direct us to something more useful. Personally, I was using wait events before Gaja's book, but I was also trying to keep the hit ratio's high as a part of the consensus. If I had written a book before seeing Cary's paper! ! , it would have touted hit ratios. I don't believe Oracle 101 Performance Tuning is a perfect book; it doesn't properly address data collection needs
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Title: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- From: Rachel Carmichael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at many conferences, including the IOUG and SEOUC. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Doing linear scans over an associative array is like trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi. - Larry Wall (creator of Perl) -Original Message- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further a correct understanding of Oracle. Authors take the time to put what they believe to be true on paper. It's often what they have been told, not what they have learned on their own. Richard Niemiec's sp? tuning books have been trashed recently because they tout buffer hit ratios; however there was a consensus in the Oracle community that these were important. It took Cary Millsap's paper and a new tuning paradigm introduced by Gaja Vaidyanatha, Kirtikumar Deshpande, and John Kostelac Jr. to direct us to something more
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at many conferences, including the IOUG and SEOUC. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Doing linear scans over an associative array is like trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi. - Larry Wall (creator of Perl) -Original Message- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again A tip o' the hat to all authors and presenters. However writing a book makes no one an expert on anything. There are Oracle books containing fabulous stories of what happens when a tablespace is put in backup mode, and while quite entertaining they do not further
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Title: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- From: Rachel Carmichael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at many conferences, including the IOUG and SEOUC. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Doing linear scans over an associative array is like trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi. - Larry Wall (creator of Perl) -Original Message- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences, can be an indicator of knowledge. --- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not IOUG-A Live where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the two!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM To: Multiple
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Sorry, I can't help being quiet. I've no respect for the OCP. I saw MANY people bought the exams from many sources. These people memorize the questions and answers prior the test day. Voila, they pass the tests and still don't understand how to install and configure the database. I learned it on my job and am still learning. I took the 8i exam program and was EXTREMELY disappointed. I learned nothing. --- Alexandre Gorbatchev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems nobody's left quiet. :) Personally, I don't want to be obstinate. I wouldn't avoid certification only because I think (and yes, I do) it's all about the Oracle's revenue and nothing about professional knowledge. Works for Oracle - fine, glad for them. As side effect I can have increase in personal revenue and that's what I care about. That's what I count on. Well, that's my point here. Alexandre - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:33 PM Well that explains a lot. In a separate post Rachel also said Oracle denigrated the prior Chauncey/IOUG tests so it's obvious that Oracle is just using testing and certification as another source of revenue. Professional Development of the DBA community is just marketing hype. All the more reason to avoid the 9i tests. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Importance: High The original certification program was developed by IOUG when Mike Corey was president of the group. I cannot remember if the program ever certified anyone other than those who built it. Once Oracle had its own certification program the IOUG one withered. The relationship between ORACLE and its user groups have not always been friendly. The OAUG's complaints have made the national press. If my memory serves, and its already been shown to be faulty, the first OOW-Americas was scheduled to be at the same time as the IOUG-A. Corey indicated he was going to see Ellison and explain to him that he couldn't do such a thing, that OOW-Americas would have to be rescheduled. Ellison was not moved, neither was the OOW-Americas conference; the IOUG-A get together was :) To its credit IOUG-A live is seen as a more credible than the marketing show known as OOW. However I doubt the conference would maintain its value if Oracle sent no one. If the IOUG had a competing certification program, Oracle would do its best to snuff it out. Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Alexandre Gorbatchev INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Julia Phu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk
out in the middle
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after
lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a
little sparse on details.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the
same
time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I
get
stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see
equally as much were there.
Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I
have to leave around 2:30 or so
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
But Rachel, you never came to any of my
presentations! (in my best whiney voice)
At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge
or.. to quote one of my favorite shows:
he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him
:)
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally
schedule
to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave
four
the
year
before that.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best
to
weed out
the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have
noticed
a
significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical
content.
Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation,
but
the
content has to be there.
Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my
track
and then
complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some
concrete
numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA
track
alone
and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't
a
second
time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best
content-organized
IOUG.
Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!!
Thank You
Stephen P. Karniotis
Product Architect
Compuware Corporation
Direct: (248) 865-4350
Mobile: (248) 408-2918
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web:www.compuware.com
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at
many conferences, including the IOUG
and SEOUC.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Doing linear scans over an associative array is like
trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi.
- Larry Wall (creator of Perl)
-Original Message-
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes
whose
presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding
monotonous
one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the
audience
is
composed of nascent DBA's :)
Ian MacGregor
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you
can
learn from ohers experiences.
and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad
information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection
process
is not blind, don't get asked back to present again.
So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences,
can
be
an indicator of knowledge.
--- Karniotis, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Let me clarify something. It was at Oracle Open World, not
IOUG-A
Live
where these presentations were made. Please do not confuse the
two!!
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
it reminds me of one of the comments (an bad rating) on the DBA 101 book on amazon... to paraphrase this book is no good because it doesn't help me cheat and lie on job interviews I consider that HIGH praise --- Julia Phu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I can't help being quiet. I've no respect for the OCP. I saw MANY people bought the exams from many sources. These people memorize the questions and answers prior the test day. Voila, they pass the tests and still don't understand how to install and configure the database. I learned it on my job and am still learning. I took the 8i exam program and was EXTREMELY disappointed. I learned nothing. --- Alexandre Gorbatchev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems nobody's left quiet. :) Personally, I don't want to be obstinate. I wouldn't avoid certification only because I think (and yes, I do) it's all about the Oracle's revenue and nothing about professional knowledge. Works for Oracle - fine, glad for them. As side effect I can have increase in personal revenue and that's what I care about. That's what I count on. Well, that's my point here. Alexandre - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:33 PM Well that explains a lot. In a separate post Rachel also said Oracle denigrated the prior Chauncey/IOUG tests so it's obvious that Oracle is just using testing and certification as another source of revenue. Professional Development of the DBA community is just marketing hype. All the more reason to avoid the 9i tests. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Importance: High The original certification program was developed by IOUG when Mike Corey was president of the group. I cannot remember if the program ever certified anyone other than those who built it. Once Oracle had its own certification program the IOUG one withered. The relationship between ORACLE and its user groups have not always been friendly. The OAUG's complaints have made the national press. If my memory serves, and its already been shown to be faulty, the first OOW-Americas was scheduled to be at the same time as the IOUG-A. Corey indicated he was going to see Ellison and explain to him that he couldn't do such a thing, that OOW-Americas would have to be rescheduled. Ellison was not moved, neither was the OOW-Americas conference; the IOUG-A get together was :) To its credit IOUG-A live is seen as a more credible than the marketing show known as OOW. However I doubt the conference would maintain its value if Oracle sent no one. If the IOUG had a competing certification program, Oracle would do its best to snuff it out. Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Alexandre Gorbatchev INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Julia Phu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Everyone's got their own way of doing things. I got Sun certified and I am using Sun everyday so I am OK when it comes to proficiency with Suns. Now I am getting Oracle certified and I am using Oracle everyday too. ltiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: ltiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation??
Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh
well...
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk
out in the middle
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after
lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a
little sparse on details.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the
same
time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I
get
stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see
equally as much were there.
Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I
have to leave around 2:30 or so
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
But Rachel, you never came to any of my
presentations! (in my best whiney voice)
At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge
or.. to quote one of my favorite shows:
he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him
:)
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally
schedule
to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave
four
the
year
before that.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best
to
weed out
the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have
noticed
a
significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical
content.
Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation,
but
the
content has to be there.
Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my
track
and then
complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some
concrete
numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA
track
alone
and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't
a
second
time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best
content-organized
IOUG.
Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!!
Thank You
Stephen P. Karniotis
Product Architect
Compuware Corporation
Direct: (248) 865-4350
Mobile: (248) 408-2918
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web:www.compuware.com
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at
many conferences, including the IOUG
and SEOUC.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Doing linear scans over an associative array is like
trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi.
- Larry Wall (creator of Perl)
-Original Message-
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes
whose
presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding
monotonous
one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the
audience
is
composed of nascent DBA's :)
Ian MacGregor
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you
can
learn from ohers experiences.
and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad
information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection
process
is not blind, don't get asked back to present again.
So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences,
can
be
an
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
You're both lucky! She stayed all the way through mine and never once broke
out her knitting!
Daniel W. Fink
Sr. Oracle DBA
MICROMEDEX
303.486.6456
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:03 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation??
Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh
well...
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk
out in the middle
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after
lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a
little sparse on details.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the
same
time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I
get
stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see
equally as much were there.
Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I
have to leave around 2:30 or so
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
But Rachel, you never came to any of my
presentations! (in my best whiney voice)
At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge
or.. to quote one of my favorite shows:
he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him
:)
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally
schedule
to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave
four
the
year
before that.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best
to
weed out
the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have
noticed
a
significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical
content.
Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation,
but
the
content has to be there.
Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my
track
and then
complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some
concrete
numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA
track
alone
and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't
a
second
time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best
content-organized
IOUG.
Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!!
Thank You
Stephen P. Karniotis
Product Architect
Compuware Corporation
Direct: (248) 865-4350
Mobile: (248) 408-2918
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web:www.compuware.com
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at
many conferences, including the IOUG
and SEOUC.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Doing linear scans over an associative array is like
trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi.
- Larry Wall (creator of Perl)
-Original Message-
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes
whose
presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding
monotonous
one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the
audience
is
composed of nascent DBA's :)
Ian MacGregor
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you
can
learn from ohers experiences.
and to clarify further, if you
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
This threads getting to be a lengthy one, and I might as well add my two cents to it. I too come from the same school of thought. That you are OCP certified holds no water with me. OK. So you are OCP Certified.That dont impress me much. One of my first questions, when I am asked to conduct an interview, is ask them to name some of the Oracle Gurus they have read about, to name some helpful Oracle sites, or some great white papers. The answers, almost always, tend to reflect the level of expertise. Jonathan Lewis, Steve Adams, Cary Millsap, Craig Shallahamer, Anjo Kolk, Tom Kyte, Kevin Loney, Rama Velupuri, Racheal Carmicheal, .. Sadly, my point of view differs from that of most recruiters. I know of an OCP who, when told that the developers were running out of temporary tablespace, put in a request with the SA to increase the disk space for /tmp. I also know of a HR personnel who rejected my resume coz I had no 8i experience. Sadly, my resume said 8.1.6, 8.1.7. Raj Not an OCP Certified DBA Whatever little I know, I owe it to my ignorance. Julia Phu julia_phu@rockeTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] tmail.com cc: Sent by:Subject: Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again [EMAIL PROTECTED] June 26, 2002 05:22 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Sorry, I can't help being quiet. I've no respect for the OCP. I saw MANY people bought the exams from many sources. These people memorize the questions and answers prior the test day. Voila, they pass the tests and still don't understand how to install and configure the database. I learned it on my job and am still learning. I took the 8i exam program and was EXTREMELY disappointed. I learned nothing. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Chris, feel blessed, she stays during all of mine and asks bizarre questions :), like: If 2 control files are being updated at the same time and one is on raid-5 and the other on raid 0+1, which one will be finished updating first. joe Grabowy, Chris wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at many conferences, including the IOUG and SEOUC. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Doing linear scans over an associative array is like trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi. - Larry Wall (creator of Perl) -Original Message- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the audience is composed of nascent DBA's :) Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L one being a marketing venue, the other being a place where you can learn from ohers experiences. and to clarify further, if you are a lousy presenter, giving bad information, you get horrible scores and, since the selection process is not blind, don't get asked back to present again. So having a list of many presentations, at various conferences,
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Rachel, Of all the people who attend the conference, do you happen to know how many actually go to the trouble of voting for best presentation? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Greg Moore INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
But Raj, if the temporary tablespace was put on /tmp, that would be ok. just kidding :) joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This threads getting to be a lengthy one, and I might as well add my two cents to it. I too come from the same school of thought. That you are OCP certified holds no water with me. OK. So you are OCP Certified.That dont impress me much. One of my first questions, when I am asked to conduct an interview, is ask them to name some of the Oracle Gurus they have read about, to name some helpful Oracle sites, or some great white papers. The answers, almost always, tend to reflect the level of expertise. Jonathan Lewis, Steve Adams, Cary Millsap, Craig Shallahamer, Anjo Kolk, Tom Kyte, Kevin Loney, Rama Velupuri, Racheal Carmicheal, .. Sadly, my point of view differs from that of most recruiters. I know of an OCP who, when told that the developers were running out of temporary tablespace, put in a request with the SA to increase the disk space for /tmp. I also know of a HR personnel who rejected my resume coz I had no 8i experience. Sadly, my resume said 8.1.6, 8.1.7. Raj Not an OCP Certified DBA Whatever little I know, I owe it to my ignorance. Julia Phu julia_phu@rockeTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] tmail.com cc: Sent by:Subject: Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again [EMAIL PROTECTED] June 26, 2002 05:22 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Sorry, I can't help being quiet. I've no respect for the OCP. I saw MANY people bought the exams from many sources. These people memorize the questions and answers prior the test day. Voila, they pass the tests and still don't understand how to install and configure the database. I learned it on my job and am still learning. I took the 8i exam program and was EXTREMELY disappointed. I learned nothing. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Joe Testa INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Work experience is better than certification but ... Getting certified is hard work. Takes a lot of time and effort (not to mention money). So it must be worth something. If only for a little bit. It is definitely not worthless. Work experience plus certification is the best combination. Certification is no different from being a doctor. You need to pass exams to be a doctor too (you need internship to go as well, of course). As for naming famous Oracle authors, I don't think this is a valid gauge of your capacity as a DBA. I know some people well versed in Computer Engineering concepts (from 'great' authors) but can't code. They sound like experts but can't deliver sh_t. ltiu On Wednesday 26 June 2002 15:23, you wrote: This threads getting to be a lengthy one, and I might as well add my two cents to it. I too come from the same school of thought. That you are OCP certified holds no water with me. OK. So you are OCP Certified.That dont impress me much. One of my first questions, when I am asked to conduct an interview, is ask them to name some of the Oracle Gurus they have read about, to name some helpful Oracle sites, or some great white papers. The answers, almost always, tend to reflect the level of expertise. Jonathan Lewis, Steve Adams, Cary Millsap, Craig Shallahamer, Anjo Kolk, Tom Kyte, Kevin Loney, Rama Velupuri, Racheal Carmicheal, .. Sadly, my point of view differs from that of most recruiters. I know of an OCP who, when told that the developers were running out of temporary tablespace, put in a request with the SA to increase the disk space for /tmp. I also know of a HR personnel who rejected my resume coz I had no 8i experience. Sadly, my resume said 8.1.6, 8.1.7. Raj Not an OCP Certified DBA Whatever little I know, I owe it to my ignorance. Julia Phu julia_phu@rockeTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] tmail.com cc: Sent by:Subject: Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again [EMAIL PROTECTED] June 26, 2002 05:22 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Sorry, I can't help being quiet. I've no respect for the OCP. I saw MANY people bought the exams from many sources. These people memorize the questions and answers prior the test day. Voila, they pass the tests and still don't understand how to install and configure the database. I learned it on my job and am still learning. I took the 8i exam program and was EXTREMELY disappointed. I learned nothing. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: ltiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
I'd like to see a vote conducted 6 months after the conference. 'Of all the presentations and papers available at the conference, which are the 5 that you have found most valuable and useful in your work and/or career?' The highest compliment I was ever paid was 6 months after my first UG presentation. A fellow DBA came up and said that he had returned to work after the conference and used my paper and presentation to audit their backup recovery process, identify the outstanding issues and implement a new process that they tested (not in production) and it worked better than their old system. Daniel W. Fink Sr. Oracle DBA MICROMEDEX 303.486.6456 -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:49 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel, Of all the people who attend the conference, do you happen to know how many actually go to the trouble of voting for best presentation? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Greg Moore INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Fink, Dan INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
?? And then Gaja (Mr. Raid) takes over the presentation ;-)) - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:38 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Chris, feel blessed, she stays during all of mine and asks bizarre questions :), like: If 2 control files are being updated at the same time and one is on raid-5 and the other on raid 0+1, which one will be finished updating first. joe Grabowy, Chris wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Deshpande, Kirti INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Getting certified is hard work. Takes a lot of time and effort... I'd say it's more like busy work. Ever move to another state and have to take another test for your drivers license? Even though you have been driving for years you may want to study for the test because the wording is strange and they ask stupid, off-the-wall questions that are covered on some dumb study sheet. It's strange having to take time to study for something that you already know how to do. Whine, whine, whine... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Excellent point. joe Deshpande, Kirti wrote: ?? And then Gaja (Mr. Raid) takes over the presentation ;-)) - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:38 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Chris, feel blessed, she stays during all of mine and asks bizarre questions :), like: If 2 control files are being updated at the same time and one is on raid-5 and the other on raid 0+1, which one will be finished updating first. joe Grabowy, Chris wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Joe Testa INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
ahem last day at OOW last year, DBA panel consisting of Ari Kaplan, Cary Millsap, Kevin Loney, Grant McAllister (amazon) and there I am, sitting in the front row and knitting. Knitting keeps my hands busy but doesn't interfere with my being a smart aleck heckler :) Besides, in YOUR presentation, I was too busy taking notes and saying damn, I didn't know that, gotta play with that when I get home to knit --- Fink, Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're both lucky! She stayed all the way through mine and never once broke out her knitting! Daniel W. Fink Sr. Oracle DBA MICROMEDEX 303.486.6456 -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:03 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at many conferences, including the IOUG and SEOUC. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Doing linear scans over an associative array is like trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi. - Larry Wall (creator of Perl) -Original Message- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
one last comment before Jared makes me take this to the off-topic list I never walked out on one of Matt's presentations, I never got to SEE one of Matt's presentations. He and I will be presenting to the Ohio Users Group in 2 weeks, I will be able to see his ENTIRE presentation before I have to leave for the airport. Not only did I sit through your entire presentation, I even applauded at the end. watcha you back, youngster :) --- Grabowy, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at many conferences, including the IOUG and SEOUC. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Doing linear scans over an associative array is like trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi. - Larry Wall (creator of Perl) -Original Message- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes whose presentation is technically weak scores better than a plodding monotonous one with better information to convey :) Especialy if the
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
oh yeah that would be GREAT I met Kevin Loney because I'd seen him present in '94 at IOUW. I went home, applied what he had said in his presentation, and a few months later, after beginning to read the 7.3 DBA Handbook, I wrote to him to say THANK YOU --- Fink, Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to see a vote conducted 6 months after the conference. 'Of all the presentations and papers available at the conference, which are the 5 that you have found most valuable and useful in your work and/or career?' The highest compliment I was ever paid was 6 months after my first UG presentation. A fellow DBA came up and said that he had returned to work after the conference and used my paper and presentation to audit their backup recovery process, identify the outstanding issues and implement a new process that they tested (not in production) and it worked better than their old system. Daniel W. Fink Sr. Oracle DBA MICROMEDEX 303.486.6456 -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:49 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel, Of all the people who attend the conference, do you happen to know how many actually go to the trouble of voting for best presentation? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Greg Moore INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Fink, Dan INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
this goes back to a thread from maybe a year ago... what sort of questions do you ask on interviews. I may ask other questions based on what we are specifically looking for or building off something the interviewee says but I always include the following questions: 1) what was your worst nightmare as a DBA and how did you resolve it 2) what are you most proud of doing 3) how do you learn new things about Oracle gee, not ONE multiple choice question among them! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This threads getting to be a lengthy one, and I might as well add my two cents to it. I too come from the same school of thought. That you are OCP certified holds no water with me. OK. So you are OCP Certified.That dont impress me much. One of my first questions, when I am asked to conduct an interview, is ask them to name some of the Oracle Gurus they have read about, to name some helpful Oracle sites, or some great white papers. The answers, almost always, tend to reflect the level of expertise. Jonathan Lewis, Steve Adams, Cary Millsap, Craig Shallahamer, Anjo Kolk, Tom Kyte, Kevin Loney, Rama Velupuri, Racheal Carmicheal, .. Sadly, my point of view differs from that of most recruiters. I know of an OCP who, when told that the developers were running out of temporary tablespace, put in a request with the SA to increase the disk space for /tmp. I also know of a HR personnel who rejected my resume coz I had no 8i experience. Sadly, my resume said 8.1.6, 8.1.7. Raj Not an OCP Certified DBA Whatever little I know, I owe it to my ignorance. Julia Phu julia_phu@rockeTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] tmail.com cc: Sent by:Subject: Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again [EMAIL PROTECTED] June 26, 2002 05:22 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Sorry, I can't help being quiet. I've no respect for the OCP. I saw MANY people bought the exams from many sources. These people memorize the questions and answers prior the test day. Voila, they pass the tests and still don't understand how to install and configure the database. I learned it on my job and am still learning. I took the 8i exam program and was EXTREMELY disappointed. I learned nothing. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Greg, nope, but Stephen Karniotis might, as he is directly involved with IOUG and the conference itself. I go as a presenter or registrant only. Rachel --- Greg Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rachel, Of all the people who attend the conference, do you happen to know how many actually go to the trouble of voting for best presentation? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Greg Moore INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
YO! JARED! has this gotten off-topic yet? since when is picking on Rachel part of the on topic list??? --- Joe Testa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, feel blessed, she stays during all of mine and asks bizarre questions :), like: If 2 control files are being updated at the same time and one is on raid-5 and the other on raid 0+1, which one will be finished updating first. joe Grabowy, Chris wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
doctors have to take more than a multiple choice test to be certified. getting certified might be hard work.. but I had a developer who decided he wanted to be a DBA so he went out and got his certification. He studied for the tests, took them and passed. Give my choice I wouldn't have allowed him to work on my development databases, let alone production. He knew NOTHING about being a DBA. --- ltiu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Work experience is better than certification but ... Getting certified is hard work. Takes a lot of time and effort (not to mention money). So it must be worth something. If only for a little bit. It is definitely not worthless. Work experience plus certification is the best combination. Certification is no different from being a doctor. You need to pass exams to be a doctor too (you need internship to go as well, of course). As for naming famous Oracle authors, I don't think this is a valid gauge of your capacity as a DBA. I know some people well versed in Computer Engineering concepts (from 'great' authors) but can't code. They sound like experts but can't deliver sh_t. ltiu On Wednesday 26 June 2002 15:23, you wrote: This threads getting to be a lengthy one, and I might as well add my two cents to it. I too come from the same school of thought. That you are OCP certified holds no water with me. OK. So you are OCP Certified.That dont impress me much. One of my first questions, when I am asked to conduct an interview, is ask them to name some of the Oracle Gurus they have read about, to name some helpful Oracle sites, or some great white papers. The answers, almost always, tend to reflect the level of expertise. Jonathan Lewis, Steve Adams, Cary Millsap, Craig Shallahamer, Anjo Kolk, Tom Kyte, Kevin Loney, Rama Velupuri, Racheal Carmicheal, .. Sadly, my point of view differs from that of most recruiters. I know of an OCP who, when told that the developers were running out of temporary tablespace, put in a request with the SA to increase the disk space for /tmp. I also know of a HR personnel who rejected my resume coz I had no 8i experience. Sadly, my resume said 8.1.6, 8.1.7. Raj Not an OCP Certified DBA Whatever little I know, I owe it to my ignorance. Julia Phu julia_phu@rockeTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] tmail.com cc: Sent by:Subject: Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again [EMAIL PROTECTED] June 26, 2002 05:22 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Sorry, I can't help being quiet. I've no respect for the OCP. I saw MANY people bought the exams from many sources. These people memorize the questions and answers prior the test day. Voila, they pass the tests and still don't understand how to install and configure the database. I learned it on my job and am still learning. I took the 8i exam program and was EXTREMELY disappointed. I learned nothing. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: ltiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
oh look now the dba goddess is offended :) joe Rachel Carmichael wrote: YO! JARED! has this gotten off-topic yet? since when is picking on Rachel part of the on topic list??? --- Joe Testa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, feel blessed, she stays during all of mine and asks bizarre questions :), like: If 2 control files are being updated at the same time and one is on raid-5 and the other on raid 0+1, which one will be finished updating first. joe Grabowy, Chris wrote: Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation?? Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh well... -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk out in the middle --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a little sparse on details. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the same time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I get stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see equally as much were there. Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I have to leave around 2:30 or so --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Rachel, you never came to any of my presentations! (in my best whiney voice) At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge or.. to quote one of my favorite shows: he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him :) --- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally schedule to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave four the year before that. Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have enough youth. How about a fountain of intelligence? -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best to weed out the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have noticed a significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical content. Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation, but the content has to be there. Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my track and then complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some concrete numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA track alone and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't a second time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best content-organized IOUG. Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Joe Testa INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
So Dan. That means that all of the harassment I gave you outside the conference center last year worked. Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 7:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again I'd like to see a vote conducted 6 months after the conference. 'Of all the presentations and papers available at the conference, which are the 5 that you have found most valuable and useful in your work and/or career?' The highest compliment I was ever paid was 6 months after my first UG presentation. A fellow DBA came up and said that he had returned to work after the conference and used my paper and presentation to audit their backup recovery process, identify the outstanding issues and implement a new process that they tested (not in production) and it worked better than their old system. Daniel W. Fink Sr. Oracle DBA MICROMEDEX 303.486.6456 -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:49 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel, Of all the people who attend the conference, do you happen to know how many actually go to the trouble of voting for best presentation? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Greg Moore INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Fink, Dan INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Karniotis, Stephen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Wow. Knitting. I will have to watch for that. At Live, She came late,
stayed a good portion, rah ra'd for a bit and left. Guess I was real lucky.
Thank You
Stephen P. Karniotis
Product Architect
Compuware Corporation
Direct: (248) 865-4350
Mobile: (248) 408-2918
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web:www.compuware.com
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 6:23 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject:RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
You're both lucky! She stayed all the way through mine and never once broke
out her knitting!
Daniel W. Fink
Sr. Oracle DBA
MICROMEDEX
303.486.6456
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:03 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Matt, she walked out in the middle of your presentation??
Your lucky. She walked out of mine at the beginning, shaking her head. Oh
well...
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:40 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
well, if so, I'll finally get to see you present and won't have to walk
out in the middle
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Right now, I think Susan has me from 1-2, right after
lunch, but I'm not sure. The OOUG web site is a
little sparse on details.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:50 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
But Mtt... you were always scheduled at either the
same
time *I* was presenting (trust me, I'd rather have gone to yours, I
get
stage fright) or when at LEAST 2 other presentations I wanted to see
equally as much were there.
Um, what time are you presenting at OOUG? My flight home is at 5, I
have to leave around 2:30 or so
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
But Rachel, you never came to any of my
presentations! (in my best whiney voice)
At least you'll get to see me present in July at OOUG.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:56 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
that's 'cause you present well and have knowledge
or.. to quote one of my favorite shows:
he has much knowledge. we must build an altar and worship him
:)
--- Adams, Matthew (GEA, MABG, 088130) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Actually, I had to miss this years (even though I was orginally
schedule
to give two presentations) due to a medical situation. I gave
four
the
year
before that.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We have enough youth.
How about a fountain of intelligence?
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:09 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
OK. As the DBA Focus Area Manager for the IOUG, we do our best
to
weed out
the fluff. If you were at IOUG this year, you should have
noticed
a
significant reduction in the marketing fluff and more technical
content.
Yes, some showmanship is necessary when giving a presentation,
but
the
content has to be there.
Many people on this forum have submitted presentations to my
track
and then
complained that they were not accepted. Let me give you some
concrete
numbers. This year, we received over 400 abstracts for the DBA
track
alone
and accepted only 80. If one slips through the cracks, it won't
a
second
time. Believe me when I say that 2002 was the best
content-organized
IOUG.
Further comments? Submit an abstract for 2003 and find out!!!
Thank You
Stephen P. Karniotis
Product Architect
Compuware Corporation
Direct: (248) 865-4350
Mobile: (248) 408-2918
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web:www.compuware.com
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:39 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
unfortunately, I've seen this to be true at
many conferences, including the IOUG
and SEOUC.
Matt Adams - GE Appliances - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Doing linear scans over an associative array is like
trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi.
- Larry Wall (creator of Perl)
-Original Message-
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
I'll bet a dynamic animated speaker chockful of amusing anecdotes
whose
presentation is technically weak scores better
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Greg Rachel: I wish I could help on this one. I believe this is one of the questions on the overall evaluation. I don't have any figures on this. As far as the top 10 presentations, those are determined by the overall scores. Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Greg, nope, but Stephen Karniotis might, as he is directly involved with IOUG and the conference itself. I go as a presenter or registrant only. Rachel --- Greg Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rachel, Of all the people who attend the conference, do you happen to know how many actually go to the trouble of voting for best presentation? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Greg Moore INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Karniotis, Stephen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
It takes a lot of time and effort (and money if you pay for lessons) to run around the parking lot flapping your arms trying to learn to fly also... And I'm SURE that SOMEBODY would sell you a license - for the right price. So it must be worthwhile ;-) I would certainly hope that Doctors aren't educated and tested like OCP candidates! Hmmm... [62% is a passing score.] 3) Severe arterial bleeding should be a) encouraged b) covered by the HMO c) stopped d) converted to vascular e) ignored 2) What type(s) of leech should be applied for an acute myocardial infarction? (Choose all that apply) a) Erpobdella punctata b) Macrobdella decora c) Pharyngobdellida d) Rhyncobdellida e) Gnatbobdellida 3) The third selection from the top on the Configuration menu of the RunAmok Technologies Defibrillator for Dummies (TM) is: a) voltage b) amperage c) frequency d) duration e) billing rate [...] Don Granaman [certifiable OraSaurus - nOCP] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 6:25 PM Work experience is better than certification but ... Getting certified is hard work. Takes a lot of time and effort (not to mention money). So it must be worth something. If only for a little bit. It is definitely not worthless. Work experience plus certification is the best combination. Certification is no different from being a doctor. You need to pass exams to be a doctor too (you need internship to go as well, of course). As for naming famous Oracle authors, I don't think this is a valid gauge of your capacity as a DBA. I know some people well versed in Computer Engineering concepts (from 'great' authors) but can't code. They sound like experts but can't deliver sh_t. ltiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Don Granaman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
The Chauncey certification exam (singular) was a failure because: 1) It didn't parrot/require enough Oracle ILT material 2) Oracle Corp didn't get a big enough cut 3) It was more scenario-based - requiring more understanding and less knowledge OCP is more like a learner's permit. The Chauncey certification was more like a chauffeur's license. Don Granaman [OraSaurus - Just say NO(CP)] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:33 AM Well that explains a lot. In a separate post Rachel also said Oracle denigrated the prior Chauncey/IOUG tests so it's obvious that Oracle is just using testing and certification as another source of revenue. Professional Development of the DBA community is just marketing hype. All the more reason to avoid the 9i tests. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Importance: High The original certification program was developed by IOUG when Mike Corey was president of the group. I cannot remember if the program ever certified anyone other than those who built it. Once Oracle had its own certification program the IOUG one withered. The relationship between ORACLE and its user groups have not always been friendly. The OAUG's complaints have made the national press. If my memory serves, and its already been shown to be faulty, the first OOW-Americas was scheduled to be at the same time as the IOUG-A. Corey indicated he was going to see Ellison and explain to him that he couldn't do such a thing, that OOW-Americas would have to be rescheduled. Ellison was not moved, neither was the OOW-Americas conference; the IOUG-A get together was :) To its credit IOUG-A live is seen as a more credible than the marketing show known as OOW. However I doubt the conference would maintain its value if Oracle sent no one. If the IOUG had a competing certification program, Oracle would do its best to snuff it out. Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Don Granaman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
But doctors have malpractice insurance and OCP does not or do/should OCP have one too. On Wednesday 26 June 2002 22:08, you wrote: It takes a lot of time and effort (and money if you pay for lessons) to run around the parking lot flapping your arms trying to learn to fly also... And I'm SURE that SOMEBODY would sell you a license - for the right price. So it must be worthwhile ;-) I would certainly hope that Doctors aren't educated and tested like OCP candidates! Hmmm... [62% is a passing score.] 3) Severe arterial bleeding should be a) encouraged b) covered by the HMO c) stopped d) converted to vascular e) ignored 2) What type(s) of leech should be applied for an acute myocardial infarction? (Choose all that apply) a) Erpobdella punctata b) Macrobdella decora c) Pharyngobdellida d) Rhyncobdellida e) Gnatbobdellida 3) The third selection from the top on the Configuration menu of the RunAmok Technologies Defibrillator for Dummies (TM) is: a) voltage b) amperage c) frequency d) duration e) billing rate [...] Don Granaman [certifiable OraSaurus - nOCP] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: ltiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Rachel Carmichael[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: this goes back to a thread from maybe a year ago... what sort of questions do you ask on interviews. I may ask other questions based on what we are specifically looking for or building off something the interviewee says but I always include the following questions: 1) what was your worst nightmare as a DBA and how did you resolve it 2) what are you most proud of doing 3) how do you learn new things about Oracle gee, not ONE multiple choice question among them! [stops lurking for a change] I always throw in What do you like most about Oracle? and What do you hate/find-frustrating about Oracle?. Most can answer the first, but you can often get a good idea of what people have (or haven't!) experienced with their answer to the second. Ciao Fuzzy :-) [goes back to lurking] -- Woo Hoo! - H. Simpson -- The contents of this post are my opinions only If swallowed seek medical advice (Apologies for the excess signature) This email message (and attachments) may contain information confidential to TOWER Software. If you are not the intended recipient you cannot use, distribute or copy the message or message attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by return email immediately and delete all copies of the message and attachments. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of TOWER Software, are not given or endorsed by it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grant Allen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jack Silvey INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Khedr, Waleed INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jack Silvey INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Rachel, So, you substitute books and presentations in place of the OCP? This sounds like we are in agreement in principle... ;) jack --- Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Putting on my cost accounting hat I'd like to say this. At $2,000 a pop and probably with a small group of people attending these classes, Oracle would be lucky to break even. The costs of developing, hardware and staff to proctor these exams are very high. A lot of people would have to take this test for Oracle to break even. A thousand test takers in a year would only generate $2,000,000 in sales which wouldn't even show up on their financial statements. My $0.02 as a former cost accountant, Ken Janusz, CPIM - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:08 AM They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jack Silvey INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Sorry can you rephrase the question please but give me multiple choice answers :-) -Original Message- Sent: 25 June 2002 16:59 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Yes, I KNOW you know what you are talking about and know how to do your job... but CAN you take a TEST?!?! -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
So isn't the problem with HR at the company, or specifically with the recruiters. They have a myopic view when reviewing resumes...they match key words...DBA, # of years, degrees, OCP, etc. Which I guess explains the one page requirement. So your being treated like another number, either you fit or you don't. The recruiters don't actually read your resume and try to understand you and your background, they just play a word matching game. I guess this would explain why networking is the best option for finding a job. You end up bypassing that recruiter word matching game. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Whether Oracle is just making break even on education, their entire profit margin was one time over 50% and now it is in 23% in profit margin and 36% in operating margin, according to Yahoo. They still make a lot of money! IBM now offer certification tetsing program. If you pass the online assessment 75% or better, you will get free electronic voucher that enable you to take the final exam for DB2 certification at NO CHARGE. My $0.02 as looking at Financial report. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 8:29 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Putting on my cost accounting hat I'd like to say this. At $2,000 a pop and probably with a small group of people attending these classes, Oracle would be lucky to break even. The costs of developing, hardware and staff to proctor these exams are very high. A lot of people would have to take this test for Oracle to break even. A thousand test takers in a year would only generate $2,000,000 in sales which wouldn't even show up on their financial statements. My $0.02 as a former cost accountant, Ken Janusz, CPIM - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:08 AM They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
I know that some companies like mine (about 500 employees) encourage people to get certified and pay incentives for each exam passed. A lot of our employees are certified in things you would not think about (example: 'Certified Excel user', 'Certified Powerpoint User'). I am not talking about network admins. One of my friends who is network admin when talking about himself said 'I am so certified, it would make you sick...'. While we all know experience and ability to do work, which is what really matters, managers want to see money on the table, and they want contracts. Certified employees are one of the ways to impress clients when company bids for projects, especially government projects. Just to share my experience: I like my company's enfaces on certifications. It forces people to study, not to be thrown behind technology (we are using Oracle 8i). I am currently studying for 9i certification. Isn't it beneficial for me personally? Financial incentives are great! ($500 for each exam passed, subtract taxes from it :-) ). Just my 2 cents. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L So isn't the problem with HR at the company, or specifically with the recruiters. They have a myopic view when reviewing resumes...they match key words...DBA, # of years, degrees, OCP, etc. Which I guess explains the one page requirement. So your being treated like another number, either you fit or you don't. The recruiters don't actually read your resume and try to understand you and your background, they just play a word matching game. I guess this would explain why networking is the best option for finding a job. You end up bypassing that recruiter word matching game. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Yes, I KNOW you know what you are talking about and know how to do your job... but CAN you take a TEST?!?! -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Bravo, Rachel! :-) - Original Message - okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... yeeeah... doesn't work for me... not yet ;) I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Alexandre Gorbatchev INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jack Silvey INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Rachel has really baiting me on this one, as she is well aware of my position on certifications, especially Oracle's. I watched some of this thread start and laughed. Vendor-sponsored certifications are no more valuable to the marketplace than the software they claim is 100% bug free. This is especially true when the vendor pushes the certification out to the market for next to nothing and then complains that the industry sees no value in it because SOO many people have it. Who's to blame for that. Why do you think Microsoft reduced the number of organizations that offer MCS* certifications? There are T MANY. Our company offered MCS* certifications, including a complete training program, as required and it brought NO VALUE. Look at companies like Novell, etc. Originally, Novel's certifications, CNA, CNE, CNAE, were offered at a high cost and only the few and proud had obtained it. The original certification exams, CSP, CCP, etc. that were offered by third-party institutes have also lost their value as anyone with a book and time can pass them. It's too bad because certifications DID mean something in the 1980s and early 1990s. Oracle is crying in its own spoiled milk on this one. They caused the problem and now they are trying to fix it by ramming a new program down our throats. Think about it folks. You have to pay an additional $ 2000 for what? The only reason people will take this ridiculous path is to achieve a higher level in the Oracle Partner Program. No More. No less. If you really think that having an OCM or OCP or other certification is going to make the difference in you getting a job, you have REAL problems. As far as Rachel substituting books and presentations for certifications, I agree with her. As a personal friend of hers ( I hope still after this long email), I also do not have my certification because my experience shows: 25+ presentations around the world, recognized industry expert, and 17+ years doing the job. OK. I'm off the soap box. Get off the certification box now before it collapses and Oracle builds another one. You know: If Oracle would concentrate on building better quality software with the time spent on this stupid certification program, all of us would be better off! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Rachel, So, you substitute books and presentations in place of the OCP? This sounds like we are in agreement in principle... ;) jack --- Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
actually, yes I can :) but I've never worked in a job where my primary function was taking and passing tests! --- April Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I KNOW you know what you are talking about and know how to do your job... but CAN you take a TEST?!?! -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services
Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
jack, I substitute the fact that I know stuff instead of taking a test Rachel --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rachel, So, you substitute books and presentations in place of the OCP? This sounds like we are in agreement in principle... ;) jack --- Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht === message truncated
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ji, Richard INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
) - college degrees - years of experience that appear to be relevant to the position being applied for. - obvious gaps in employment history, frequent job changes I'm not saying that the system is fair, but just that is the way it mostly works. If the system doesn't work for you, it is critical that you learn the alternate strategies from books like What Color is Your Parachute. Too often we technical people are rightfully proud of the difficulty of learning hard-core technical subjects like DBMS theory and Oracle, and sneer at the mediocrity of simple people skills like preparing a good resume and basic interviewing skills. Some of the most brilliant technical people I have worked with had the hardest time getting their next position and were forced to settle for a less-attractive job because of it. Dennis Williams DBA, 20% OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
experience shows: 25+ presentations around the world, recognized industry expert, and 17+ years doing the job. OK. I'm off the soap box. Get off the certification box now before it collapses and Oracle builds another one. You know: If Oracle would concentrate on building better quality software with the time spent on this stupid certification program, all of us would be better off! Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Product Architect Compuware Corporation Direct: (248) 865-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:Re: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Rachel, So, you substitute books and presentations in place of the OCP? This sounds like we are in agreement in principle... ;) jack --- Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this list but... I hand them my resume. the third page of which is FILLED with lists of presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for presentations I have given and books I have written if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after that, I don't want to work there anyway --- Jack Silvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, are you going to allow your clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your pursuit of filth lucre? *I* ain't! ;) It is just another hoop to jump through so that a hring manager can say that is an impressive hoop you jumped through and you can respond yes, and I can jump through some hoops for you too and allow them to say here is an outrageous sum of money to work on our computers. I love this job. jack silvey ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i --- Don Granaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial percentage (6%? 7%? more? I can't remember now...) of their income and is required (?). This new requirement for OCP is just another in a long line of propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its never-ending attempts to suck up every buck it possibly can. [Oracle likes $. HR likes mindless checklist items. It is a match made in heaven.] I thought that the need practically any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant 9i OCM was going to be the limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP bucks - for 9i at least. This isn't about certification anymore (as if it ever was), its about revenue. Since this new requirement (for the moment at least) doesn't apply to upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone know if there is (or soon will be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting that to 8i OCP obtained prior to, oh say, June 15, 2002? September 2002? Don Granaman [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the evil vampire Larry's OCP DBA tax] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Yup. --- Boivin, Patrice J [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know if 9i Release 2 is going to be the terminal release for 9i? Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) Systems Admin Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes Technology Services| Services technologiques Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique Maritimes Region, DFO | Région des Maritimes, MPO E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). = Connor McDonald http://www.oracledba.co.uk http://www.oaktable.net Remember amateurs built the ark - Professionals built the Titanic __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?Connor=20McDonald?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Not necessarily, just saying that it is one more bullet in the gun when it comes time to ask for more money, and it is probably a decent investment. --- Khedr, Waleed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jack Silvey INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Khedr, Waleed INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jack Silvey INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
They would like to have you go for 10i certification soon! -Original Message- Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 1:53 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Does anyone know if 9i Release 2 is going to be the terminal release for 9i? Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) Systems Admin Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes Technology Services| Services technologiques Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique Maritimes Region, DFO | Région des Maritimes, MPO E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Khedr, Waleed INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
The Metalink techs told me it is too early to tell... We'll see how it goes I suppose. Pat. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 7:23 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Yup. --- Boivin, Patrice J [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know if 9i Release 2 is going to be the terminal release for 9i? Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) Systems Admin Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes Technology Services| Services technologiques Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique Maritimes Region, DFO | Région des Maritimes, MPO E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). = Connor McDonald http://www.oracledba.co.uk http://www.oaktable.net Remember amateurs built the ark - Professionals built the Titanic __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: =?iso-8859-1?q?Connor=20McDonald?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
And if you are lucky and 'distinguished' you might receive your OCM diploma in front of 22,000+ attendees at the next OOW conf. Rich N. was the first one to do that. I saw it last December. - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 5:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Deshpande, Kirti INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent:Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jack Silvey INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Khedr, Waleed INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
I thought employees were not allowed to write things off as business expenses... Confusedly yours, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again Are you trying to promote it? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am seriously considering pursuing one, since it can be sold to hiring managers as a sign of professional competence. Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio standpoint. Will someone with this cerifification make $2000 more over her professional life than she would without? So it takes a round trip ticket and three days of vacation. Get the company to pay for it or write it off as a business expense. Good investment, easy money, instant credibility to many hiring managers. jack silvey On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote: Date sent:Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that our list has made mention in this report from Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying to justify the $2000 expence. If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i OCP. === LEAD STORY ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY | SearchDatabase Oracle has a new requirement for its potential certified professionals, and the price tag is about $2,000. Many DBAs aren't happy about the new policy but Oracle says the class makes their certification more valuable than ever. Read the details of the new mandate, and what DBAs and industry experts have to say about it. For the full details, click: http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht ml ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jack Silvey INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Khedr, Waleed INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again
Does anyone know if 9i Release 2 is going to be the terminal release for 9i? Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) Systems Admin Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes Technology Services| Services technologiques Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique Maritimes Region, DFO | Région des Maritimes, MPO E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
