Re:RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Tom, IMHO, if Babette's organization "see themselves as *never* leaving the Cobol arena" then it's time to dust off the resume as that organization will become extinct. No one that I know of is learning Cobol anymore and there are no classes at the local universities on the subject. Fortran classes and programmers are also becoming a scarce resource to find which is why we left ManMan and TurboImage for PeopleSoft and Oracle. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Mercadante; Thomas F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 11/18/2002 5:03 AM Babette, The decision really comes down to the organization. If they see themselves as *never* leaving the Cobol arena, and they have an ample supply of Cobol programmers, then they should stay with it. What you could do is to make friends with the applications people, and show them how PL/SQL works. What you will find is that they will take to PL/SQL like a fish to water. And pretty soon, more and more PL/SQL packages will be written that are simply called by the Cobol programs. Cobol would then be a simple entry point to the database - able to interface nicely with the operating system (reading and writing flat files, producing reports and forms), while the majority of the logic may be written in PL/SQL. Maybe, just maybe, the person making the decision see's no benefit to using PL/SQL. And given your local labor market, maybe he's right! Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 1:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L "Khedr, Waleed" wrote: > > Cobol! Again!:( > > -Original Message- > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:24 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is > starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the > application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) > > So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to > the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do > the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. > > If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. > I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic > into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. > > I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 > years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! > > thanks > Babette > May I play the devil's advocate? Even if Pro*Cobol seems to be a weird choice, there may be a case for not coding the logic in PL/SQL : database portability. I have heard recently of a very, very, very big company dumping Oracle in favour of DB2. Reason ? Cost. I guess that in such a case, porting a Pro*Cobol program is easier than PL/SQL. -- Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole Software -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mercadante, Thomas F INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re:RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
I disagree with your last statement. Since IBM purchased informix, we are in battle with their so-called concurrent licensing ripoff. >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/17/02 09:43PM >>> Ron, Thankyou, I appreciate it. And for the individual who proposed that it might be better to do it in Pro*Cobol for database independence. We have had the thought of dumping Oracle for it's DB/2 competitor, until we found out that DB/2 was no cheaper than Oracle in the end run. Probably the only benefit is that IBM is more slack on enforcing their licenses. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Ron/Sarah Yount <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 11/16/2002 2:53 PM In the "for what it is worth" department: In addition to Dick's comments (with which I agree) Be careful how you approach this situation. If you wish to succeed, it may be key to let the powers that be know that you are not proposing bleeding edge solutions, and that looking down the road towards total cost of ownership and supporting the application, it may behoove them to consider something more mainstream. Nobody ever truly wins a discussion by starting an argument with someone in a higher level of authority. Perhaps you should inquire about the "why" of the decisions so you understand the key issues to address to propose a better one. Good Luck, Yep, even technical decisions require us to exercise high levels of diplomacy :-) -Ron- -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Babette, This is one of those "from this old turd to that old fart" messages. I've been around Oracle since 1985 & I love it too. But it sounds like the director has a serious problem with new technology. Doing anything in COBOL today? Even PeopleSoft is busy re-writing their code in C++. Seesh his age is seriously showing. Oracle already has an adapter to MQ series, why re-invent the wheel when someone else has already done a better job of it. Then code the business logic in PL/SQL so that not only can this application use it, but any other that comes around. I believe it's known as code reuse. Another old term. You might start off by handing him a copy of Oracle 8i new features & functions. BTW: add a copy of the 9i edition as well. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Babette Turner-Underwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 11/15/2002 2:24 PM I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Babette Turner-Underwood INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron/Sarah Yount INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListG
Re:RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Ron, Thankyou, I appreciate it. And for the individual who proposed that it might be better to do it in Pro*Cobol for database independence. We have had the thought of dumping Oracle for it's DB/2 competitor, until we found out that DB/2 was no cheaper than Oracle in the end run. Probably the only benefit is that IBM is more slack on enforcing their licenses. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Ron/Sarah Yount <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 11/16/2002 2:53 PM In the "for what it is worth" department: In addition to Dick's comments (with which I agree) Be careful how you approach this situation. If you wish to succeed, it may be key to let the powers that be know that you are not proposing bleeding edge solutions, and that looking down the road towards total cost of ownership and supporting the application, it may behoove them to consider something more mainstream. Nobody ever truly wins a discussion by starting an argument with someone in a higher level of authority. Perhaps you should inquire about the "why" of the decisions so you understand the key issues to address to propose a better one. Good Luck, Yep, even technical decisions require us to exercise high levels of diplomacy :-) -Ron- -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Babette, This is one of those "from this old turd to that old fart" messages. I've been around Oracle since 1985 & I love it too. But it sounds like the director has a serious problem with new technology. Doing anything in COBOL today? Even PeopleSoft is busy re-writing their code in C++. Seesh his age is seriously showing. Oracle already has an adapter to MQ series, why re-invent the wheel when someone else has already done a better job of it. Then code the business logic in PL/SQL so that not only can this application use it, but any other that comes around. I believe it's known as code reuse. Another old term. You might start off by handing him a copy of Oracle 8i new features & functions. BTW: add a copy of the 9i edition as well. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Babette Turner-Underwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 11/15/2002 2:24 PM I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Babette Turner-Underwood INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron/Sarah Yount INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (
