RE: suggestion w/c platforms to choose from...
Grace - Well if they want to build all you mentioned in-house, order taking , purchase order and accounting module,hr then I wouldn't worry too much about server sizing because it'll take them forever to get all that done. Well, I just couldn't avoid tossing that remark in, please excuse it. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L this will be build in-house... - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:56 PM Grace - Amen to Yechiel's first rule. At the VERY least, warn your management that they need to consider a second system for the datamart. This way, if it works terribly, you don't look dumb. My experience is mainly Unix, so 200 OLTP users on an NT box sounds iffy from a throughput point of view. I would tend to go with a small 4-CPU Solaris server, especially if this is a critical application. From what I've heard, and I will defer to list members that have more experience here, 200 ERP users are near the upper limit of Windows-based systems, and if you ended up undersizing the system or you add users faster than expected, you might run out of headroom. A lot would depend on what your site's experience base is. If you are used to maintaining high-availability NT systems, then that might work well for you. If you care to mention which ERP system you will be using for the order taking, PO, HR, GL, etc., you may garner advice specific to that system. Many of us support ERP systems of different stripes and it is possible that different ERP systems behave better on some platforms. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L First rule: Do not mix OLTP and datamart. Datamart access is very heavy and complex SQL's that will impact your OLTP system. I think that an NT with 2-4 CPUs and a lot of memory will do (a not so educated guess). Controller with a lot of cache memory and fast disks (15,000 rpm). Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 3:48 AM database will be used for oltp and data mart # of users -- 200 very critical, since order taking , purchase order and accounting module,hr will run on it.. - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:03 PM As a rule buy the biggest, meanest, fault tolerance, with gigabytes of memory and terabytes of disk storage that you can buy. If you will provide more data about: 1) The size of the database 2) How many users 3) How critical is the system 4) The use of the system - data warehouse, OLTP etc then you will probably get a more specified answer. Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:13 PM hi, can anyone suggestion w/c platform should i used to run oracle? wat are the things to consider in choosing platform? thanks Best regards, Grace Lim MIS Department Suy Sing Comm'l Corp. T- (632)-2474134 F- (632)-2474160 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Yechiel Adar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com --
Re: suggestion w/c platforms to choose from...
First rule: Do not mix OLTP and datamart. Datamart access is very heavy and complex SQL's that will impact your OLTP system. I think that an NT with 2-4 CPUs and a lot of memory will do (a not so educated guess). Controller with a lot of cache memory and fast disks (15,000 rpm). Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 3:48 AM database will be used for oltp and data mart # of users -- 200 very critical, since order taking , purchase order and accounting module,hr will run on it.. - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:03 PM As a rule buy the biggest, meanest, fault tolerance, with gigabytes of memory and terabytes of disk storage that you can buy. If you will provide more data about: 1) The size of the database 2) How many users 3) How critical is the system 4) The use of the system - data warehouse, OLTP etc then you will probably get a more specified answer. Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:13 PM hi, can anyone suggestion w/c platform should i used to run oracle? wat are the things to consider in choosing platform? thanks Best regards, Grace Lim MIS Department Suy Sing Comm'l Corp. T- (632)-2474134 F- (632)-2474160 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Yechiel Adar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Yechiel Adar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: suggestion w/c platforms to choose from...
Grace - Amen to Yechiel's first rule. At the VERY least, warn your management that they need to consider a second system for the datamart. This way, if it works terribly, you don't look dumb. My experience is mainly Unix, so 200 OLTP users on an NT box sounds iffy from a throughput point of view. I would tend to go with a small 4-CPU Solaris server, especially if this is a critical application. From what I've heard, and I will defer to list members that have more experience here, 200 ERP users are near the upper limit of Windows-based systems, and if you ended up undersizing the system or you add users faster than expected, you might run out of headroom. A lot would depend on what your site's experience base is. If you are used to maintaining high-availability NT systems, then that might work well for you. If you care to mention which ERP system you will be using for the order taking, PO, HR, GL, etc., you may garner advice specific to that system. Many of us support ERP systems of different stripes and it is possible that different ERP systems behave better on some platforms. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L First rule: Do not mix OLTP and datamart. Datamart access is very heavy and complex SQL's that will impact your OLTP system. I think that an NT with 2-4 CPUs and a lot of memory will do (a not so educated guess). Controller with a lot of cache memory and fast disks (15,000 rpm). Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 3:48 AM database will be used for oltp and data mart # of users -- 200 very critical, since order taking , purchase order and accounting module,hr will run on it.. - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:03 PM As a rule buy the biggest, meanest, fault tolerance, with gigabytes of memory and terabytes of disk storage that you can buy. If you will provide more data about: 1) The size of the database 2) How many users 3) How critical is the system 4) The use of the system - data warehouse, OLTP etc then you will probably get a more specified answer. Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:13 PM hi, can anyone suggestion w/c platform should i used to run oracle? wat are the things to consider in choosing platform? thanks Best regards, Grace Lim MIS Department Suy Sing Comm'l Corp. T- (632)-2474134 F- (632)-2474160 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Yechiel Adar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Yechiel Adar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051
Re: suggestion w/c platforms to choose from...
this will be build in-house... - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:56 PM Grace - Amen to Yechiel's first rule. At the VERY least, warn your management that they need to consider a second system for the datamart. This way, if it works terribly, you don't look dumb. My experience is mainly Unix, so 200 OLTP users on an NT box sounds iffy from a throughput point of view. I would tend to go with a small 4-CPU Solaris server, especially if this is a critical application. From what I've heard, and I will defer to list members that have more experience here, 200 ERP users are near the upper limit of Windows-based systems, and if you ended up undersizing the system or you add users faster than expected, you might run out of headroom. A lot would depend on what your site's experience base is. If you are used to maintaining high-availability NT systems, then that might work well for you. If you care to mention which ERP system you will be using for the order taking, PO, HR, GL, etc., you may garner advice specific to that system. Many of us support ERP systems of different stripes and it is possible that different ERP systems behave better on some platforms. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L First rule: Do not mix OLTP and datamart. Datamart access is very heavy and complex SQL's that will impact your OLTP system. I think that an NT with 2-4 CPUs and a lot of memory will do (a not so educated guess). Controller with a lot of cache memory and fast disks (15,000 rpm). Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 3:48 AM database will be used for oltp and data mart # of users -- 200 very critical, since order taking , purchase order and accounting module,hr will run on it.. - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:03 PM As a rule buy the biggest, meanest, fault tolerance, with gigabytes of memory and terabytes of disk storage that you can buy. If you will provide more data about: 1) The size of the database 2) How many users 3) How critical is the system 4) The use of the system - data warehouse, OLTP etc then you will probably get a more specified answer. Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:13 PM hi, can anyone suggestion w/c platform should i used to run oracle? wat are the things to consider in choosing platform? thanks Best regards, Grace Lim MIS Department Suy Sing Comm'l Corp. T- (632)-2474134 F- (632)-2474160 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Yechiel Adar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing
suggestion w/c platforms to choose from...
hi, can anyone suggestion w/c platform should i used to run oracle? wat are the things to consider in choosing platform? thanks Best regards, Grace Lim MIS Department Suy Sing Comm'l Corp. T- (632)-2474134 F- (632)-2474160 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: suggestion w/c platforms to choose from...
As a rule buy the biggest, meanest, fault tolerance, with gigabytes of memory and terabytes of disk storage that you can buy. If you will provide more data about: 1) The size of the database 2) How many users 3) How critical is the system 4) The use of the system - data warehouse, OLTP etc then you will probably get a more specified answer. Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:13 PM hi, can anyone suggestion w/c platform should i used to run oracle? wat are the things to consider in choosing platform? thanks Best regards, Grace Lim MIS Department Suy Sing Comm'l Corp. T- (632)-2474134 F- (632)-2474160 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Yechiel Adar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: suggestion w/c platforms to choose from...
How about considering what OS skills your systems admins already have? Do they have experience with HP/UX, or Solaris, or NT/2000 type systems etc.? How big is the database? How many users will it have? What will the database be used for? How much money do you have to spend? Mark -Original Message- Sent: 05 November 2002 12:14 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L hi, can anyone suggestion w/c platform should i used to run oracle? wat are the things to consider in choosing platform? thanks Best regards, Grace Lim MIS Department Suy Sing Comm'l Corp. T- (632)-2474134 F- (632)-2474160 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: suggestion w/c platforms to choose from...
How about a 400 CPU nCube running Oracle 9i RAC? If they still support nCube that is. ( Larry owns nCube ) Seriously though, does your app maintain HR data for 500 people, or is it a 20TB Data Warehouse? These apps may require different HW configurations. Jared grace [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/05/2002 04:13 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:suggestion w/c platforms to choose from... hi, can anyone suggestion w/c platform should i used to run oracle? wat are the things to consider in choosing platform? thanks Best regards, Grace Lim MIS Department Suy Sing Comm'l Corp. T- (632)-2474134 F- (632)-2474160 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: suggestion w/c platforms to choose from...
database will be used for oltp and data mart # of users -- 200 very critical, since order taking , purchase order and accounting module,hr will run on it.. - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:03 PM As a rule buy the biggest, meanest, fault tolerance, with gigabytes of memory and terabytes of disk storage that you can buy. If you will provide more data about: 1) The size of the database 2) How many users 3) How critical is the system 4) The use of the system - data warehouse, OLTP etc then you will probably get a more specified answer. Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:13 PM hi, can anyone suggestion w/c platform should i used to run oracle? wat are the things to consider in choosing platform? thanks Best regards, Grace Lim MIS Department Suy Sing Comm'l Corp. T- (632)-2474134 F- (632)-2474160 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Yechiel Adar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: grace INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
