Re: [osdcmy] Do CS need maths
I disagree with the statement that CS don't need math, but I think CS courses do not help students much in their future career because they are teaching it in the wrong (traditional) way. First of all, I think programming skill should be the foundation before entering CS. Everyone must have at least intermediary skills on programming before entering CS and are expected to understand advanced programming practices by themselves. If the students have little to no knowledge on programming, they must be sent to foundation courses or get a diploma first. Programming is a level-0 course and prerequisite of CS, it is the basics for everything in CS but outside the teaching scope of CS. Secondly, CS should teach the mathematical theories behind the various CS subjects and let the students apply the algorithms with their existing advanced programming skills. It's relationship with math is the same as applied physics with math. Students are expected to understand the proof behind the formulas but are not expected to construct new proofs - that's the job for mathematician and theoretical CS. If you only learn programming but not CS, you can only construct very high level programs where other true hackers have built the foundations for you. Yes, programming frameworks today are extremely powerful and allows even mediocre programmers to write powerful programs without understanding what's going on behind the scene, but somebody still has to write and maintain the frameworks and libraries, and that needs a lot of CS and math skills. There are so many subjects out there that require deep understanding in math and CS, just to name a few: information retrieval, image processing, artificial intelligence, compiler design, formal semantics, operating systems, database systems, concurrency, graph algorithms, distributed computing, and so on. These are the subjects that really makes todays technologies possible, even Google, Facebook, GCC, and Linux are built on top of the many theories in CS. Nevertheless, it is true that the market for jobs requiring CS is shrinking, especially for places like Malaysia. I feel that today's programmers are split into two camps: one camp that make use of CS to build various libraries and frameworks, and the other camp that makes use of the libraries and frameworks with little understanding on what's going on behind. The market for non-CS camp programmers is expanding in rapid speed, thanks to today's technologies such as Android, iPhone, HTML5, and cloud computing. It is kinda sad for me to see the younger generation of prospective CS students having too much attention focused on developing cool (insert-buzzword)-Apps, rather that the CS behind that makes it possible. Now I'm not saying that developing apps is not important, but I would prefer programmers to also look at the CS behind the apps - the programs that power Android, the browsers, the cloud, and so on. Also, technology is constantly changing. The buzzwords today might fade away quickly in few years time and replaced by new buzzwords, but the maths and theories behind the technologies will not change much. So a programmer who has solid CS knowledge can easily adapt the technologies that based on new theories, while the non-CS programmers will always need to wait for the CS programmers to rebuild new frameworks and make use of the new APIs. Anyway, regardless of the importance of CS, it's kinda sad that in Malaysia there is almost no job opportunity for CS programmers AFAIK. Most Malaysian companies that I seen focus on using existing frameworks to build software that matter to businesses. There is nothing wrong with doing so, my point is just that it has very little to do with CS. If I know any Malaysia company that actually makes use of (non-theoretical) CS, I would probably jump ship to work for that company. :P I think the problem of CS getting further away from programmers is also similar to the engineering field. Most people with engineering degree today do not work as a true engineer. Well their job titles still write engineer, but most of them don't really do the kind of fundamental engineering, such as designing machines or building megastructures, that make our modern lives possible. Most engineers also make use of the works of a small number of core engineers who really make use of the engineering knowledge. So while deeper engineering knowledge still matters today, it matter less for majority of the engineers today. (disclaimer: I have little understanding on what engineers really do, that's just my observation from my friends graduating from engineering, and I may be wrong) just my two cents. Btw even though I attended some CS courses, most of my CS knowledge come from self teaching. On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Raja Iskandar Shah rajaiskand...@gmail.com wrote: ahaks... for a mathematician a simpler answer is n*(n+1)/2 On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:57 PM, darXness darXness darxl...@gmail.comwrote:
Re: [osdcmy-public] mod_wsgi Meetup on Late September
Hi all, Graham will arrive in Malaysia on 13th October. The best time for meetup is on Friday 15th October. Is the date ok? On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Chen Ruo Fei crf2...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 07:50 +0800, sweemeng ng wrote: Apparently it is on a october, detail coming soon Yup. Graham will update us on his schedule later. Thanks Swee Meng for helping up! :) On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Muhd Syazwan Md Khusaini jipangmenje...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 07:50 +0800, sweemeng ng wrote: Apparently it is on a october, detail coming soon just don't too soon.. got LinuxVarsiti and GeekCamp SG to attend :p On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:08 PM, Harisfazillah Jamel linuxmalay...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Sweeng Meng ... On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 4:36 PM, sweemeng ng swees...@gmail.com wrote: I suggest that we can use hackerspacekl or I could ask for our usual foss.my meetup spot. will confirm soon On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Soares Chen Ruo Fei crf2...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Graham Dumpleton, author of mod_wsgi, is travelling to Malaysia on late September. Is anyone here at KL interested to help organize a meetup on mod_wsgi? I am unable to help much as I stay in Penang. More details is available on Dumpleton's blog: http://blog.dscpl.com.au/2010/08/2010-modwsgi-world-road-show.html Regards, Soares Chen -- -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en
Re: [osdcmy-public] mod_wsgi Meetup on Late September
On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 07:50 +0800, sweemeng ng wrote: Apparently it is on a october, detail coming soon Yup. Graham will update us on his schedule later. Thanks Swee Meng for helping up! :) On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Muhd Syazwan Md Khusaini jipangmenje...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-31 at 07:50 +0800, sweemeng ng wrote: Apparently it is on a october, detail coming soon just don't too soon.. got LinuxVarsiti and GeekCamp SG to attend :p On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:08 PM, Harisfazillah Jamel linuxmalay...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Sweeng Meng ... On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 4:36 PM, sweemeng ng swees...@gmail.com wrote: I suggest that we can use hackerspacekl or I could ask for our usual foss.my meetup spot. will confirm soon On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Soares Chen Ruo Fei crf2...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Graham Dumpleton, author of mod_wsgi, is travelling to Malaysia on late September. Is anyone here at KL interested to help organize a meetup on mod_wsgi? I am unable to help much as I stay in Penang. More details is available on Dumpleton's blog: http://blog.dscpl.com.au/2010/08/2010-modwsgi-world-road-show.html Regards, Soares Chen -- -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en
[osdcmy-public] mod_wsgi Meetup on Late September
Hi all, Graham Dumpleton, author of mod_wsgi, is travelling to Malaysia on late September. Is anyone here at KL interested to help organize a meetup on mod_wsgi? I am unable to help much as I stay in Penang. More details is available on Dumpleton's blog: http://blog.dscpl.com.au/2010/08/2010-modwsgi-world-road-show.html Regards, Soares Chen -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en
Re: [osdcmy-public] Software Freedom Day
Count me in. Thanks. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:40 AM, sweemeng ng swees...@gmail.com wrote: ouch, again.. it is a saturday btw... last year, it also very near raya . On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Raja Iskandar Shah rajaiskand...@gmail.com wrote: oppss.. sorry. i meant software freedom day (not foss day) On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Raja Iskandar Shah rajaiskand...@gmail.com wrote: sweemeng, foss day is on sunday, 18 sept 2010 ? which is 1 week after raya ? On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Azrul MADISA azrulha...@gmail.comwrote: I'll contribute a talk Azrul On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 9:32 AM, syamsul anuar wari...@gmail.comwrote: Sounds great. Depends on the timing, I will be in. -Anuar- On Jul 20, 2010 7:49 AM, red1 r...@red1.org wrote: Bro.. can also but i prefer something new to be a global ass-kicker. Let us theoretise about how the recent Google Map thingy can integrate wonderfully to the ERP locators. I put the basic idea here http://red1empire.blogspot.com/2010/07/google-devfest-in-kuala-lumpur.html On 7/20/10 7:02 AM, sweemeng ng wrote: everyone that involve in open source software is wel... -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www... -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comosdcmy-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comosdcmy-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comosdcmy-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comosdcmy-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en
Re: [osdcmy-public]
Azrul I agree with you on every aspects you mentioned. Great presentation during the light talk! My mind was thinking what the hell when I saw Microsoft being one of the only two main sponsors. M$ is pushing very hard to get into the open source community, and they will take whatever possible to attract clueless developers to use their platform. By the way while I do agree that it is very important to get sponsors from open source giants such as Oracle rather than from Microsoft, it is also important to get more open source communities to really take part in the conference. Otherwise the conference would be too business oriented and become a market place for Red Hat et al to sell their products to CIO/CTOs, like what happened in OSSPAC. My friend also mentioned to me that the quality of speakers varied greatly. Its like MOSC just accepts as many presentations as possible to attract as many audience as possible. To me its like attracting the wrong crowd to the conference. Heck I don't even want to measure how much proportion of the audience truly appreciate open source. To cope with the technical level of these audience, majority of the talks are very introductory and I feel that it'd be better to put the title of these talks as Introduction to XXX. I also feel that the environment is too large and too serious to have some more casual sessions, like Ubuntu jam, PDF exploit workshop, and lightning talks. The hall is so large and the distance between the speaker and audience is so far that these sessions become more like lecturing, rather than interactive session where discussions can be made without through the microphone. When I asked few of my OSS elite friends whether they will be attending MOSC, they said that there's nothing much to see and going attending it would be waste of time. So while the participation of Microsoft do is an irritating fact, I think there are also many other things to improve, if we want to get back our geeks to attend next year's MOSC. Just my 2 cents. :) cheers, Soares On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 7:37 PM, Muhd Syazwan Md Khusaini jipangmenje...@gmail.com wrote: maybe we should start make our own fund.. just donate in an account, collect it for a year and then, the money for conference! minimizing microsoft appears in others MOSC and show the world that Malaysian OSS community are unite.. and everyone happy :) On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 5:16 PM, aziman noor azi...@gmail.com wrote: No develop No Gain. On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:07 PM, red1 r...@red1.org wrote: If Malaysia is to build another national car, it will cost us taxpayers billions. If Malaysia is to build another Twin Tower it will cost us again billions. Now Malaysia is building more F1 cars, again more money. But to build a top of the charts SourceForge project it cost us nothing. Only me in this farm here with a ADSL line. No MDec, no grant, no bodek. It is time someone beat my goal post rather than hate me for pointing out the obvious. But i have to. I am not on the rest of the world's side. I am on my side. On 7/7/10 3:27 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan wrote: I doubt it. Even the first motto/slogan/tagline Open Source Towards Malaysia as Developed Country in 2020, to show that we should use Open Source as platform to become Developed Country, was shot down for the sake of getting money from one of the Proprietary company that sponsoring the event. On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Azrul MADISA azrulha...@gmail.comwrote: Our next MOSC motto should probably be 'OSS made in Malaysia', and not some cliched slogan like 'The source is yours' :) -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comosdcmy-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Komuniti As-Salam http://www.salamsentosa.com -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comosdcmy-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en -- Muhd Syazwan @ jipang_menjerit http://blog.ubuntuseekers.com http://blog.syazwan.info jipangmenje...@gmail.com jipang_menje...@ubuntuseekers.com -- Join
[osdcmy-public] Re:
Azrul I agree with you on every aspects you mentioned. Great presentation during the light talk! My mind was thinking what the hell when I saw Microsoft being one of the only two main sponsors. M$ is pushing very hard to get into the open source community, and they will take whatever possible to attract clueless developers to use their platform. By the way while I do agree that it is very important to get sponsors from open source giants such as Oracle rather than from Microsoft, it is also important to get more open source communities to really take part in the conference. Otherwise the conference would be too business oriented and become a market place for Red Hat et al to sell their products to CIO/CTOs, like what happened in OSSPAC. My friend also mentioned to me that the quality of speakers varied greatly. Its like MOSC just accepts as many presentations as possible to attract as many audience as possible. To me its like attracting the wrong crowd to the conference. Heck I don't even want to measure how much proportion of the audience truly appreciate open source. To cope with the technical level of these audience, majority of the talks are very introductory and I feel that it'd be better to put the title of these talks as Introduction to XXX. I also feel that the environment is too large and too serious to have some more casual sessions, like Ubuntu jam, PDF exploit workshop, and lightning talks. The hall is so large and the distance between the speaker and audience is so far that these sessions become more like lecturing, rather than interactive session where discussions can be made without through the microphone. When I asked few of my OSS elite friends whether they will be attending MOSC, they said that there's nothing much to see and going attending it would be waste of time. So while the participation of Microsoft do is an irritating fact, I think there are also many other things to improve, if we want to get back our geeks to attend next year's MOSC. Just my 2 cents. :) On Jul 7, 12:47 am, Azrul MADISA azrulha...@gmail.com wrote: Hi guys Here's my take on MOSC 2010http://ejn3.blogspot.com/2010/07/my-take-on-mosc-2010.html Enjoy Azrul -- Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/ Facebook Fan page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577 http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups OSDC.my Mailing List group. To post to this group, send email to osdcmy-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to osdcmy-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/osdcmy-list?hl=en
