Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3 Gijs

[Gijs via OSList]

Thanks Michael, your analysis and feed-back motivates me to become
more virtually active and find partners. Leaning back and being
sceptical (without having virtual experience) has been my attitude for a
year. Too long. I intent to "get my feet wet" and find tech-support
(following Heidi's advice in Qiqo interview). Do it, reflect, share (on
the list) and do it better. Wish you well    Original Message

 FROM: Michael M Pannwitz  [1] TO:
oslist@lists.openspacetech.org [2] ,  van wezel [3] ,  gijs  [4] 
SENT:
Sat, 15 May 2021 12:14:39 +0200
SUBJECT: Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol
121, Issue 3

 Dear Gijs,

 in my active os facilitation days (until
2012) I published detailed cost 
 estimates. Looking at this one (in
German)

http://www.meine-openspace-praxis.de/Dateien/18-Kosten-3Tage-130TN.pdf
[5] 
 travelling costs did not show up. That had to do with the nature
of the 
 event. It took place in Berlin, so no travel costs for me. Most

 participants lived and worked in Berlin. Those from outside had their

 travel expenses paid by their organisations or they paid for them 

personally.

 Looking at the sheet, I do see a number of items that were
universal:

 - The omnipresent buffet (Pausenloses Pausenbüffet) and the
rent for the 
 space (Raummiete) made up about one third of the cost
 -
The costs for the facilitation team, about one third of total cost
 -The
remaining third went for management of the event, Material, 
 Planning
Session, Next Meeting, advertising and miscellanious items

 Looking at
all of this it seems that real life os might cost more than 
 virtual.


After 2012 until today, I was frequently contacted for collegiate advice

 or counselling (no wonder because the 2385 facilitators that took part

 in os-trainings I was involved in had "lifelong free consulting"). So,
I 
 was honored to be in touch with the trade.
 One of the feedbacks I
got is that an online version of a Planning 
 Sessions for an os event
is acceptable. Participants of those online 
 Planning Sessions gave
similar feedbacks that we regularly received 
 after real life Planning
Sessions, such as "never experienced a meeting 
 as this one with such
concrete outcomes in such a short time... and it 
 was fun...". Of
course, Planning Sessions in itself are not os-events... 
 they do
however produce only stuff that the participants themselves 
 craft and
cast into action.

 Has anyone had the chance to get feedback from
participants that 
 experienced both real life and digital os events?
Especially the 
 experience of a full fledged 3-day event real life
versus online?

 Greetings from Berlin
 mmp

 -
 Am 15.05.2021 um 04:29
schrieb Mega via OSList:
 > Re: virtual open space facilitator
 >
 >
Following the earlier request, i have forwarded a choice of 

faciltators to the sponsor of the event.
 > It is an awakening for me to
realize the impact covid had on group 
 events and it's future. Sponsors
seem to accept the reduced impact as it 
 also reduces the (travelling)
cost significantly.
 >
 >

-- 
 Michael M Pannwitz
 Draisweg 1, 12209
Berlin, Germany
 ++49 - 30-772 8000 mmpannw...@gmail.com
[6]


Links:
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[3]
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[4]
mailto:g...@megainternational.com.hk
[5]
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[6]
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Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 121, Issue 6

[anne stadler via OSList]

ide open space covering all
> > time zones.
> >
> > For discount
> > code, and registration info - visit this
> > site:
> >
> > https://osius.org/content/future-work-may-7-8 [10]
> >
> > ??? With
> > Gratitude,
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> > --
> >
> > End of OSList Digest, Vol 120, Issue
> > 13
> > ***
> >
> > Links:
> > --
> > [1]
> > mailto:oslist-requ...@lists.openspacetech.org
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> > mailto:offic...@osius.org
> > [8] mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> > [9]
> > mailto:e4cf646a-8366-0f57-5bdd-a90b0c56e...@osius.org
> > [10]
> > https://osius.org/content/future-work-may-7-8
> > [11]
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> > [12]
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Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3

[Thomas Herrmann via OSList]

Thanks all for sharing your thoughts, experiences and stories, very inspiring.
I too have powerful experiences of Open Space Tech meetings online since many 
years. And also sometimes it gives access for people who would otherwise not 
been able to join. A couple of months ago I coached a hospital in Norway which 
wanted to go online with OST (one of their employees had an OST training with 
Eiwor and me 15 years ago and they have been using it ever since, and it has 
been an important part in their transformation – an article is being written on 
this story currently (thanks to my collegue Doris)). 70 persons from 
municipalities, NGOs and hospital employees co-created input for the upcoming 
hospital plan. And for sure they worked energetically and created great 
results. Of course it is impossible to know what results a physical OST would 
have had apart from that not everyone of them would have been able to take part.
I think the impact of an OST has more to do with HOW it is facilitated (incl 
prep and follow up), including all the pieces that have been mentioned in this 
thread, than if it is done in physical space or online. But if you cut out 
pieces it will not have the same impact. Such as walking the circle… 
With appreciation
Thomas


Från: OSList  För Peggy Holman via 
OSList
Skickat: den 16 maj 2021 16:10
Till: World wide Open Space Technology email list 

Kopia: Peggy Holman ; Barry Owen 

Ämne: Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3

I love this question of can an online meeting be as effective as FtF!

I have two examples where it was MORE effective.

One was a summit launching a collaborative. It would probably have been too 
expensive to meet in person with a group of 30 so this meeting wouldn’t have 
happened. If it had, I would have wanted two days for it. I had three hours 
with the group. The intent was to create a foundation and self-organize the 
work. They did it. New and deeper connections were formed, both expected and 
unexpected people took the lead as working groups coalesced around the things 
the sponsor hoped for and things she hadn’t thought of. They were thrilled.

The second example is from an educator friend who had to move a class she’d 
taught for years online. Admittedly it wasn’t all classic open space (neither 
was the summit) but it was imbued with the spirit of open space. Not only did 
her students tell her that the classes were more meaningful than their other 
online classes, but the tangible results, as assessed by their papers, was the 
best she had ever received. In other words, her pedagogy, which incorporated 
Open Space online, produced more learning and integration of that learning than 
her in-person version of the class.

That’s a result to study more thoroughly!

Peggy Holman
206-948-0432
Sent from my iPad


On May 16, 2021, at 5:38 AM, Barry Owen via OSList 
mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:

I love this conversation!
Something I've noticed is that (Because of all the things Michael has 
mentioned) presence of SPIRIT seems to me to be more important when doing the 
"building" for an on-line meeting.
I sense that it's easy for anyone to show up by clicking in "just because" 
because it IS now SO easy to join and to quit.
I believe that creating the compelling theme that inspires passion that 
participants can imagine that their presence will contribute to making a 
difference of significance relative to this "IMPORTANT" issue.
I paid $50 to attend an on-line meeting just because of my curiosity - 10 
minutes into it, and I realized I had ZERO passion for the cryptic theme - I 
used my 2 feet thankful that I had not travelled physically.
Maybe when the ripe preconditions are present (Important/Complex issue - 
Diversity of people - Potential for conflict - Need for resolution YESTERDAY) 
then any space we "build" would be appropriate . . . When the Theme is clear, 
the right people will come, and there's not much a facilitator or process could 
do to squash the passion . . . Cause, if they don't like the provided 
structure, they'll LEAVE and go to a place that is more conducive to their 
mission.

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 3:47 PM Michael Herman via OSList 
mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
i like this distinction you make about holding and building, steve.  i find 
that working online requires me to be more active than i like in "shaping" the 
space.  i much prefer to set the chairs and be done with the shaping in a 
physical gathering.

i completely agree that online is not the factor that would make for less 
impact.  look at reddit and the impact some there, meeting and talking online, 
have had on financial markets recently, in the US, anyway.  big impact!

the thing that's different for me online is transactions cost.  it's way easier 
to click in than to board an airplane or even drive across town to a meeting.  
and it's easier to leave.  it's harder to focus.  i think this dilutes passion. 
 it's a drag for 

Re: [OSList] OST and Holacracy

[Harrison Owen SR via OSList]

Holarchy is the creation of Ken Wilber, I think -- which would date it late
'80's or there about. Ken (if it was Ken) was proposing it as something
that might be done or "installed."  Revolutionary idea at the time. But
there is a secret -- the installation is un-necessary, and probably
counter-productive. In my experience, Holarchy happens every time space is
opened -- all by itself. Self organization in action. No installation
needed. Just get out of the way. Great to see you Funda!

Harrison

On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 5:22 AM Thomas Herrmann via OSList <
oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> Thanks Funda.
> Very inspiring, thanks for sharing.  I never really looked into Holocracy,
> Even if I heard bits many times, but I will now thanks 
> Thomas
>
> Hämta Outlook för iOS 
> --
> *Från:* OSList  för Funda Oral
> via OSList 
> *Skickat:* Saturday, May 15, 2021 6:21:00 PM
> *Till:* World wide Open Space Technology email list <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> *Kopia:* Funda Oral 
> *Ämne:* [OSList] OST and Holacracy
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> I think "Holacracy" points out a "Self Organizing, Interactive, Inspired
> System" as indicated in Open Space Technology.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJxfJGo-vkI
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Regards,
> Funda
>
>
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Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3

[Peggy Holman via OSList]

I love this question of can an online meeting be as effective as FtF!

I have two examples where it was MORE effective. 

One was a summit launching a collaborative. It would probably have been too 
expensive to meet in person with a group of 30 so this meeting wouldn’t have 
happened. If it had, I would have wanted two days for it. I had three hours 
with the group. The intent was to create a foundation and self-organize the 
work. They did it. New and deeper connections were formed, both expected and 
unexpected people took the lead as working groups coalesced around the things 
the sponsor hoped for and things she hadn’t thought of. They were thrilled. 

The second example is from an educator friend who had to move a class she’d 
taught for years online. Admittedly it wasn’t all classic open space (neither 
was the summit) but it was imbued with the spirit of open space. Not only did 
her students tell her that the classes were more meaningful than their other 
online classes, but the tangible results, as assessed by their papers, was the 
best she had ever received. In other words, her pedagogy, which incorporated 
Open Space online, produced more learning and integration of that learning than 
her in-person version of the class. 

That’s a result to study more thoroughly!

Peggy Holman 
206-948-0432
Sent from my iPad

> On May 16, 2021, at 5:38 AM, Barry Owen via OSList 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I love this conversation!
> Something I've noticed is that (Because of all the things Michael has 
> mentioned) presence of SPIRIT seems to me to be more important when doing the 
> "building" for an on-line meeting.
> I sense that it's easy for anyone to show up by clicking in "just because" 
> because it IS now SO easy to join and to quit. 
> I believe that creating the compelling theme that inspires passion that 
> participants can imagine that their presence will contribute to making a 
> difference of significance relative to this "IMPORTANT" issue.
> I paid $50 to attend an on-line meeting just because of my curiosity - 10 
> minutes into it, and I realized I had ZERO passion for the cryptic theme - I 
> used my 2 feet thankful that I had not travelled physically.
> Maybe when the ripe preconditions are present (Important/Complex issue - 
> Diversity of people - Potential for conflict - Need for resolution YESTERDAY) 
> then any space we "build" would be appropriate . . . When the Theme is clear, 
> the right people will come, and there's not much a facilitator or process 
> could do to squash the passion . . . Cause, if they don't like the provided 
> structure, they'll LEAVE and go to a place that is more conducive to their 
> mission. 
> 
>> On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 3:47 PM Michael Herman via OSList 
>>  wrote:
>> i like this distinction you make about holding and building, steve.  i find 
>> that working online requires me to be more active than i like in "shaping" 
>> the space.  i much prefer to set the chairs and be done with the shaping in 
>> a physical gathering.
>> 
>> i completely agree that online is not the factor that would make for less 
>> impact.  look at reddit and the impact some there, meeting and talking 
>> online, have had on financial markets recently, in the US, anyway.  big 
>> impact!  
>> 
>> the thing that's different for me online is transactions cost.  it's way 
>> easier to click in than to board an airplane or even drive across town to a 
>> meeting.  and it's easier to leave.  it's harder to focus.  i think this 
>> dilutes passion.  it's a drag for everyone.  which means it's even more 
>> important to be talking about something that's REALLY important.  that, to 
>> me, is the challenge.  
>> 
>> and... if that means narrowing the topic, maybe what would previously have 
>> been one big os meeting becomes a series of smaller/shorter and more focused 
>> sessions.  ongoing os, even.  
>> 
>> in agile terms, i guess what i'm saying is we have to be more focused than 
>> ever on desired outcomes, over just producing the familiar outputs.
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> --
>> 
>> Michael Herman
>> Michael Herman Associates
>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>> 
>> MichaelHerman.com
>> OpenSpaceWorld.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 10:38 AM Steve Holyer via OSList 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Thomas wrote, "I am curious about the assumption that online open space has 
>>> less of an impact than physical open space."
>>> 
>>> It’s a fair assumption I think. In my experience many online meetups of the 
>>> last year—including online Open Spaces—have been just kinda m’eh. They’ve 
>>> definitely lacked the impact I wanted.
>>> 
>>> But not all of them had reduced impact. Some online meetups and open spaces 
>>> had increased impact, and even where impact was lacking we’ve been learning 
>>> how to create or hold space for more impact next time.
>>> 
>>> I don’t think that holding Open Space online is what creates reduced impact.
>>> 
>>> I believe, it’s the way we think about online meetups (including 

Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3

[Barry Owen via OSList]

I love this conversation!
Something I've noticed is that (Because of all the things Michael has
mentioned) presence of SPIRIT seems to me to be more important when doing
the "building" for an on-line meeting.
I sense that it's easy for anyone to show up by clicking in "just because"
because it IS now SO easy to join and to quit.
I believe that creating the compelling theme that inspires passion that
participants can imagine that their presence will contribute to making a
difference of significance relative to this "IMPORTANT" issue.
I paid $50 to attend an on-line meeting just because of my curiosity - 10
minutes into it, and I realized I had ZERO passion for the cryptic theme -
I used my 2 feet thankful that I had not travelled physically.
Maybe when the ripe preconditions are present (Important/Complex issue -
Diversity of people - Potential for conflict - Need for resolution
YESTERDAY) then any space we "build" would be appropriate . . . When the
Theme is clear, the right people will come, and there's not much a
facilitator or process could do to squash the passion . . . Cause, if they
don't like the provided structure, they'll LEAVE and go to a place that is
more conducive to their mission.

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 3:47 PM Michael Herman via OSList <
oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> i like this distinction you make about holding and building, steve.  i
> find that working online requires me to be more active than i like in
> "shaping" the space.  i much prefer to set the chairs and be done with the
> shaping in a physical gathering.
>
> i completely agree that online is not the factor that would make for less
> impact.  look at reddit and the impact some there, meeting and talking
> online, have had on financial markets recently, in the US, anyway.  big
> impact!
>
> the thing that's different for me online is transactions cost.  it's way
> easier to click in than to board an airplane or even drive across town to a
> meeting.  and it's easier to leave.  it's harder to focus.  i think this
> dilutes passion.  it's a drag for everyone.  which means it's even more
> important to be talking about something that's REALLY important.  that, to
> me, is the challenge.
>
> and... if that means narrowing the topic, maybe what would previously have
> been one big os meeting becomes a series of smaller/shorter and more
> focused sessions.  ongoing os, even.
>
> in agile terms, i guess what i'm saying is we have to be more focused than
> ever on desired outcomes, over just producing the familiar outputs.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>
> MichaelHerman.com
> OpenSpaceWorld.org
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 10:38 AM Steve Holyer via OSList <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
>> Thomas wrote, "I am curious about the assumption that online open space
>> has less of an impact than physical open space."
>>
>> It’s a fair assumption I think. In my experience many online meetups of
>> the last year—including online Open Spaces—have been just kinda m’eh.
>> They’ve definitely lacked the impact I wanted.
>>
>> But not all of them had reduced impact. Some online meetups and open
>> spaces had increased impact, and even where impact was lacking we’ve been
>> learning how to create or hold space for more impact next time.
>>
>> I don’t think that holding Open Space online is what creates reduced
>> impact.
>>
>> I believe, it’s the way we think about online meetups (including Open
>> Space) that’s limiting.
>>
>> I still believe we’ve only scratched the surface of what is possible with
>> online Open Space.
>>
>> I’m also more and more convinced that what we are learning about holding
>> space for Open Space online is one key to creating more impact for many
>> different events online—especially when the "meeting" itself is not "open
>> space".
>>
>> I keep finding that the principles of open space are teaching me a lot
>> about facilitating other events online—even when those events are not using
>> OST to engage the outcomes.
>>
>> One thing about online Open Space that’s significantly different to me is
>> that I’m not only "holding space", I’m also "building" space.
>>
>> In the physical open space someone has already built the physical space
>> (and manufactured chairs, and painted the walls etc). As a facilitator I
>> work with the sponsor to find a physical space (where possible) that’s open
>> and inviting and "fits" the invitation they’re making to the open space.
>> But how lucky we were to walk into a space that was already built. We
>> "just" had to put the chairs in a circle. (Note: I’m smiling when I say
>> "just".)
>>
>> I believe online the OS facilitator is part of building the "space" that
>> people will enter virtually before you hold it for them. Key to building
>> online space for impact simplicity, invitation and welcoming emergence are
>> keys building space for impact (like with the facilitator’s script for
>> "opening" the 

Re: [OSList] OST and Holacracy

[Thomas Herrmann via OSList]

Thanks Funda.
Very inspiring, thanks for sharing.  I never really looked into Holocracy, Even 
if I heard bits many times, but I will now thanks 
Thomas

Hämta Outlook för iOS

Från: OSList  för Funda Oral via OSList 

Skickat: Saturday, May 15, 2021 6:21:00 PM
Till: World wide Open Space Technology email list 

Kopia: Funda Oral 
Ämne: [OSList] OST and Holacracy

Dear Friends,

I think "Holacracy" points out a "Self Organizing, Interactive, Inspired 
System" as indicated in Open Space Technology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJxfJGo-vkI

Any thoughts?

Regards,
Funda


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Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3

[Thomas Herrmann via OSList]

Thanks for your insightful posts Michael and Steve.
I also like the clarification of us creating the space and holding the space.
Since the pandemic started I have trained hundreds of people in facilitating 
better online meetings.I find there is much confusion creating different 
assumptions around online meetings.this goes for ordinary meetings as well as 
open-space technology used online.
I often say that online meetings can be at least as impactful as physical 
meetings.this is partly because there are so many lousy physical meetings And 
my experience that online meetings can be really live nurturing and efficient. 
When I facilitate open space technology meetings online I  do my best to stay 
as close as possible to how I facilitate open space in physical environment. 
This means staying very close to ’the book’, by Harrison Owen (Open space 
technology, a users guide). Just as when I work physically I put much attention 
to the pre-work and follow-up.
I see a risk that OST gets distorted online just as sometimes happens in 
physical meetings.the risk seems even higher online to me.
I’d be interested to know more about your meet ups Steve so please share more 
about what you are up to.
With appreciation
Thomas

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Från: OSList  för Michael Herman via 
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Skickat: Saturday, May 15, 2021 10:47:05 PM
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Kopia: Michael Herman 
Ämne: Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3

i like this distinction you make about holding and building, steve.  i find 
that working online requires me to be more active than i like in "shaping" the 
space.  i much prefer to set the chairs and be done with the shaping in a 
physical gathering.

i completely agree that online is not the factor that would make for less 
impact.  look at reddit and the impact some there, meeting and talking online, 
have had on financial markets recently, in the US, anyway.  big impact!

the thing that's different for me online is transactions cost.  it's way easier 
to click in than to board an airplane or even drive across town to a meeting.  
and it's easier to leave.  it's harder to focus.  i think this dilutes passion. 
 it's a drag for everyone.  which means it's even more important to be talking 
about something that's REALLY important.  that, to me, is the challenge.

and... if that means narrowing the topic, maybe what would previously have been 
one big os meeting becomes a series of smaller/shorter and more focused 
sessions.  ongoing os, even.

in agile terms, i guess what i'm saying is we have to be more focused than ever 
on desired outcomes, over just producing the familiar outputs.



--

Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
312-280-7838 (mobile)

MichaelHerman.com
OpenSpaceWorld.org




On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 10:38 AM Steve Holyer via OSList 
mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:

Thomas wrote, "I am curious about the assumption that online open space has 
less of an impact than physical open space."

It’s a fair assumption I think. In my experience many online meetups of the 
last year—including online Open Spaces—have been just kinda m’eh. They’ve 
definitely lacked the impact I wanted.

But not all of them had reduced impact. Some online meetups and open spaces had 
increased impact, and even where impact was lacking we’ve been learning how to 
create or hold space for more impact next time.

I don’t think that holding Open Space online is what creates reduced impact.

I believe, it’s the way we think about online meetups (including Open Space) 
that’s limiting.

I still believe we’ve only scratched the surface of what is possible with 
online Open Space.

I’m also more and more convinced that what we are learning about holding space 
for Open Space online is one key to creating more impact for many different 
events online—especially when the "meeting" itself is not "open space".

I keep finding that the principles of open space are teaching me a lot about 
facilitating other events online—even when those events are not using OST to 
engage the outcomes.

One thing about online Open Space that’s significantly different to me is that 
I’m not only "holding space", I’m also "building" space.

In the physical open space someone has already built the physical space (and 
manufactured chairs, and painted the walls etc). As a facilitator I work with 
the sponsor to find a physical space (where possible) that’s open and inviting 
and "fits" the invitation they’re making to the open space. But how lucky we 
were to walk into a space that was already built. We "just" had to put the 
chairs in a circle. (Note: I’m smiling when I say "just".)

I believe online the OS facilitator is part of building the "space" that people 
will enter virtually before you hold it for them. Key to building online space 
for impact simplicity, invitation and