Re: [ozmidwifery] group B strep

2004-10-05 Thread Lieve Huybrechts




Hoi Kim,
 
I am a flemish midwife in Belgium and I take the good things 
that I can use from the Netherlands. I have a homebirth practice since 6 years 
after being a hospital midwife for nearly 20 years. I live about 30 km from 
the border with the Netherlands and we speak the same language.
There are a lot of differences between a home practice in the 
netherlands and in Belgium.
Be sure, I learned a lot from this list , I don't think you 
have to look so far as the Netherlands for you to learn what you need as a 
midwife, doula or mother.
If you want to know more about my practice, I will be glad to 
tell about it.
 
warm greetings
Lieve

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kim Stead 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 11:19 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] group B 
  strep
  
  

  
 Hi Lieve
 
I would love to hear more about your practices in the 
Netherlands.  I am sure we could learn a lot!!

 
Kiwi Kim 
---Original 
Message---
 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 5/10/2004 
6:41:06 p.m.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: 
[ozmidwifery] group B strep
 
Hoi Leanne,
We have a good leaflet of the Netherlands that explains very well 
the
problem with GBS. Their recommandations are not to screen 
routinaly, but
just in  cases:
- premature rupture of membranes
- rupture of membranes more than 24 hours before established 
labor
- several urinary tract infections during this pregnancy, caused by 
GBS
- fever during labor
- previous child that suffered from an infection with GBS at 
birth.
Also in those cases AB is not routinely given, but evaluated.
The hospitals here are not giving these info, they nearly all do 
routine
controle on GBS and when positive they give AB during labor, 
without asking
the parents. They just state that it would kill the baby if 
not.
 
 
We handle in all pregnancys and births the same:
- no vaginal check ups unless a real reason
- no rupturing of the membranes
- birth at the tempo of the mothers body
- undisturbed contact of baby and mother during at least 1,5 h 
after birth
en so
- undisturbed start of breastfeeding
- not cutting the cord before the pulsations stopped
- next days observation of the baby in his mothers arms
 
I think that is a better prevention for illness than giving Ab and 
than have
the right to not respect the birthing process.
We explain all this to the parents during pregnancy and they can 
choose what
they want, but I will not administre AB at home.
 
greetings
Lieve
 
 
 
- Original Message -
From: "leanne wynne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 5:16 AM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] group B strep
 
 
> Hi All,
> I am interested to hear what those midwives who attend 
homebirths do in
> regard to group B strep. Do you screen for it or not? If you 
know a woman
is
> GBS positive do you give A/Bs to the mother during labour or 
just observe
> the baby?
> Thanks,
> Leanne.
>
> Leanne Wynne
> Midwife in charge of "Women's Business"
> Mildura Aboriginal Health Service  Mob 0418 
371862
>
> 
_
> Click here for the latest chart ringtones:
> http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
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Re: [ozmidwifery] group B strep

2004-10-05 Thread Lieve Huybrechts
Hoi Leanne,

I think we would get the same reaction in here, but we get the same rection
also when they hear we let the cord intact until pulsation stops, because we
don't rupture mambranes, we give only vit K on demand of the parents, we
don't usualy do vaginal check ups.
We are a real danger :-))

Lieve


- Original Message - 
From: "leanne wynne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] group B strep


> Thanks Belinda and Lieve for your replies.
> I will explain why I asked the question.
> In Victoria the "3Centres Consensus Guidelines" recommend Penicillin 1.2g
IV
> then 0.6g IV 4 hourly throughout labour for those women who are GBS
> positive.
> Over the weekend I was caring for a teenage primip who had been GBS
positive
> on LVS at 38/40 gestation. She had been in early labour for 2 days before
> she established at about 1pm Sunday and she was content to labour at home
> for as long as possible. Later that evening she decided to stay home and
> birth, which we did - beautifully!! - 3.5kg girl with perineum intact!!
Her
> membranes had ruptured spontaneously during transition.
> However at 5 hours of age the baby gagged on some mucous, became cyanotic
> and they rushed her to the local hospital. I met them in A&E and the staff
> said that on arrival the baby was pink and well perfused - thank God!!
They
> admitted the baby to SCN for observation for 24 hours and everything was
> normal.
> The parents later told me of the reactions from the medical staff, both
> obstetric and paediatric, when they learned that she was GBS+ but hadn't
had
> A/Bs in labour. I was obviously viewed as negligent or incompetent or
both!
> So I was just wondering what other midwives do.
> Thanks,
> Leanne.
>
>
> >From: "Lieve Huybrechts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] group B strep
> >Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:04:49 +0200
> >
> >Hoi Leanne,
> >We have a good leaflet of the Netherlands that explains very well the
> >problem with GBS. Their recommandations are not to screen routinaly, but
> >just in  cases:
> >- premature rupture of membranes
> >- rupture of membranes more than 24 hours before established labor
> >- several urinary tract infections during this pregnancy, caused by GBS
> >- fever during labor
> >- previous child that suffered from an infection with GBS at birth.
> >Also in those cases AB is not routinely given, but evaluated.
> >The hospitals here are not giving these info, they nearly all do routine
> >controle on GBS and when positive they give AB during labor, without
asking
> >the parents. They just state that it would kill the baby if not.
> >
> >
> >We handle in all pregnancys and births the same:
> >- no vaginal check ups unless a real reason
> >- no rupturing of the membranes
> >- birth at the tempo of the mothers body
> >- undisturbed contact of baby and mother during at least 1,5 h after
birth
> >en so
> >- undisturbed start of breastfeeding
> >- not cutting the cord before the pulsations stopped
> >- next days observation of the baby in his mothers arms
> >
> >I think that is a better prevention for illness than giving Ab and than
> >have
> >the right to not respect the birthing process.
> >We explain all this to the parents during pregnancy and they can choose
> >what
> >they want, but I will not administre AB at home.
> >
> >greetings
> >Lieve
> >
> >
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "leanne wynne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 5:16 AM
> >Subject: [ozmidwifery] group B strep
> >
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > > I am interested to hear what those midwives who attend homebirths do
in
> > > regard to group B strep. Do you screen for it or not? If you know a
> >woman
> >is
> > > GBS positive do you give A/Bs to the mother during labour or just
> >observe
> > > the baby?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Leanne.
> > >
> > > Leanne Wynne
> > > Midwife in charge of "Women's Business"
> > > Mildura Aboriginal Health Service  Mob 0418 371862
> > >
> > > _
> > > Click here for the latest chart ringtones:
> > > http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
> > >
> > > --
> > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> > > Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
> > >
> >
> >--
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> >Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>
>
> Leanne Wynne
> Midwife in charge of "Women's Business"
> Mildura Aboriginal Health Service  Mob 0418 371862.
>
> _
> Searching for that dream home? Try   http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au  for
> all your property needs.
>
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Catty midwives

2004-10-05 Thread Abby and Toby
> Apology accepted Abby, and I meant pain in the  as a true compliment.
Trish

Thanks Trish! I hope our paths cross one day.

Love Abby

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Re: [ozmidwifery] Catty midwives

2004-10-05 Thread Trish David
Apology accepted Abby, and I meant pain in the  as a true compliment. Trish



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Re: [ozmidwifery] primary accouchuer (aka catching or delivering the baby)

2004-10-05 Thread Trish David
Unfortunately, ACMI Guidelines and now the various Nurses Boards who have adopted them 
don't see it this way. Previously in Victoria it seemed ok to be the person having the 
responsibility for oversight of the labour and after care, even if the birth ended in 
a last minute instrumental birth, and it can still be interpreted this way for Grad 
Dip Mid but none of us would, so BMid students are definitely
being held to a different standard. But you make a valid point, Megan, and you could 
write to ANEST at ACMI or the Nurses Board in your state. Trish

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Can I comment from Jen's earlier email, particularly "ACMI requirement is that we 
> are the primary accouchuer (aka catching or delivering the baby) for 40 
> non-instrumental births".
>
> I am really troubled with this requirement. I understand the idea behind it but 
> shouldn't the birthing woman decide who catches her baby.
> I have caught three of my babies, all water births at home and passionately defend 
> my right to. With my last birth we were joined by a 3rd year BMid and I remember her 
> asking about who would catch the baby, later it occured to me that she might not be 
> able to "tick me off" her list of 40 catches as I was to catch my baby. My Ind 
> Midwife didn't catch them either, but she was still the primary care giver.
> I would like to see a change of thinking on this requirement, I see it as 
> disrespectful to the birthing woman and the role Midives have in birth.
> Feeling your own cervix dilate is amazing, but catching your own baby is bloody 
> awsome!
>
> whats the discussion on this at the Uni's and ACMI?
>
> cheers
> Megan
>
> PS I am happy to put this in writing to the appropriate people (?) to give food for 
> thought.
>
> This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au
>
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Re: uterine rupture 1998

2004-10-05 Thread leanne wynne
Hi All,
Enkin et al cite the rate of uterine rupture (excluding asymptomatic scar 
dehiscence) as 0.09 - 0.8% for VBAC. It is worth noting that 2% of elective 
C/S after previous C/S have asymptomatic scar dehiscence without having 
laboured.
Leanne.
From: "axelbys" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Re: uterine rupture 1998
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:22:46 +1000
To be honest, I would be very worrisome about an independent midwife
whose clients have a 12% rupture rate.
Hi Abby,
I am sorry I wasn't very clear  - I didn't mean the independent midwife
had that rate, rather that is the rate she mentioned to me that she has
heard of. Often you will hear of rates that are very low, but that is
not always the case. I guess it depends on a lot of factors as to how
accurate the rates are.



Leanne Wynne
Midwife in charge of "Women's Business"
Mildura Aboriginal Health Service  Mob 0418 371862e
_
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Re: [ozmidwifery] group B strep

2004-10-05 Thread leanne wynne
Thanks Belinda and Lieve for your replies.
I will explain why I asked the question.
In Victoria the "3Centres Consensus Guidelines" recommend Penicillin 1.2g IV 
then 0.6g IV 4 hourly throughout labour for those women who are GBS 
positive.
Over the weekend I was caring for a teenage primip who had been GBS positive 
on LVS at 38/40 gestation. She had been in early labour for 2 days before 
she established at about 1pm Sunday and she was content to labour at home 
for as long as possible. Later that evening she decided to stay home and 
birth, which we did - beautifully!! - 3.5kg girl with perineum intact!! Her 
membranes had ruptured spontaneously during transition.
However at 5 hours of age the baby gagged on some mucous, became cyanotic 
and they rushed her to the local hospital. I met them in A&E and the staff 
said that on arrival the baby was pink and well perfused - thank God!! They 
admitted the baby to SCN for observation for 24 hours and everything was 
normal.
The parents later told me of the reactions from the medical staff, both 
obstetric and paediatric, when they learned that she was GBS+ but hadn't had 
A/Bs in labour. I was obviously viewed as negligent or incompetent or both! 
So I was just wondering what other midwives do.
Thanks,
Leanne.


From: "Lieve Huybrechts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] group B strep
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:04:49 +0200
Hoi Leanne,
We have a good leaflet of the Netherlands that explains very well the
problem with GBS. Their recommandations are not to screen routinaly, but
just in  cases:
- premature rupture of membranes
- rupture of membranes more than 24 hours before established labor
- several urinary tract infections during this pregnancy, caused by GBS
- fever during labor
- previous child that suffered from an infection with GBS at birth.
Also in those cases AB is not routinely given, but evaluated.
The hospitals here are not giving these info, they nearly all do routine
controle on GBS and when positive they give AB during labor, without asking
the parents. They just state that it would kill the baby if not.
We handle in all pregnancys and births the same:
- no vaginal check ups unless a real reason
- no rupturing of the membranes
- birth at the tempo of the mothers body
- undisturbed contact of baby and mother during at least 1,5 h after birth
en so
- undisturbed start of breastfeeding
- not cutting the cord before the pulsations stopped
- next days observation of the baby in his mothers arms
I think that is a better prevention for illness than giving Ab and than 
have
the right to not respect the birthing process.
We explain all this to the parents during pregnancy and they can choose 
what
they want, but I will not administre AB at home.

greetings
Lieve

- Original Message -
From: "leanne wynne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 5:16 AM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] group B strep
> Hi All,
> I am interested to hear what those midwives who attend homebirths do in
> regard to group B strep. Do you screen for it or not? If you know a 
woman
is
> GBS positive do you give A/Bs to the mother during labour or just 
observe
> the baby?
> Thanks,
> Leanne.
>
> Leanne Wynne
> Midwife in charge of "Women's Business"
> Mildura Aboriginal Health Service  Mob 0418 371862
>
> _
> Click here for the latest chart ringtones:
> http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
>
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>

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Leanne Wynne
Midwife in charge of "Women's Business"
Mildura Aboriginal Health Service  Mob 0418 371862.
_
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all your property needs.

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Re: [ozmidwifery] Students, training and other things was Re: uterine rupture 1998

2004-10-05 Thread Fiona & Craig Rumble



Dear Abby,
I think(while not trying to speak for 
them) what the ladies are trying to say is, sometimes a midwife of whatever 
background or belief is going to have to do a VE (such as the Galea case showed 
- a real medical need to know if the cervix is dilated ) and even if it is only 
once in a lifetime, each midwife MUST KNOW HOW to do it.
Hope that helps, Cheers 
Fiona


[ozmidwifery] Consumer groups in SA

2004-10-05 Thread Tania Smallwood



Hello all,
 
Just a quick reminder that both the Homebirth Network of SA 
and Birth Matters SA have their respective coffee mornings on next week, 
Thursday October 14th, from 10-12.  For more information about both, email 
or call me on 8339 4074 and I'll be happy to pass on the details to 
you!
 
Cheers
 
Tania


RE: [ozmidwifery] ve's

2004-10-05 Thread jo
Hi Miriam - not about ve's, just hoping you received your birth photo's from
me???
All the best
Jo x 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Miriam Hannay
Sent: Tuesday, 5 October 2004 1:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's

Hi there list and especially megan,

I also performed my own VE's in labour with my 2nd, 3rd and 4th sons. I was
in the water and felt the need to have a tangible focus for my own progress.
I told my midwife and she suggested I check for myself. I distinctly
remember with Sam (no. 2) feeling a rush of exhilaration as I identified
that my cervix was about
9 cm dilated and i could feel a fontanelle clearly pulsing under my middle
finger. It was extraordinary, more women should be encouraged to become
aware of their own bodies and the way they work. Also, while I support
absolutely limiting the use of VE (listern to her NOISE, it will tell you),
I feel much more confident as a mid student to perform a VE having done my
own in labour! Miriam, Flinders uni Bmid.

 --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
> One of my strongest memories from my fourth son's birth was doing a VE 
> on myself whilst reclined on the toilet. I did it mainly because it 
> was my last oppurtunity to feel a dilating cervix. WOW it was amazing, 
> but it was mine to feel.
> 
> My first son was born in hospital where I had a few VE's, I did then 
> believe I needed to know how I was doing. Next 3 bubs born at home 
> with same Ind Midwife, no VE's by her. I did have a feel with my third 
> son, but by then his big beautiful head was working its way out.
> 
> When I touched my cervix and felt the circle that was about 4 cm, so 
> clearly and readable, it was amazing. How far dialted I was made no 
> difference, I was an hour into labour and an hour later I was holding 
> my baby boy, that was the measure of my progression.
> 
> How we dilate has become such a focus for birthing women and maybe 
> more so their carers, its become the yard stick of childbirth. I 
> understand why women think they want/need them, especially when 
> birthing in an environment of the unknown.
> Sadly most Midwives are not able to work (for lots of reasons) in a 
> model of continuity and women are no doubt asking for Ve's as 
> inspiration or perhaps used with time as the marker to have the 
> intervention.
> I also see women being told that they don't need to have VEs, but then 
> we expect them to birth with Mids/Obs who need to do them. It can get 
> very confusing for the birthing woman.
> What do Midwives do in this circumstance and I assume that confidence 
> in understanding the dilation process is an advantage?
> Which I think is was Stacey is asking?
> 
> Its questions like this that spread the wisdom learnt, not one teacher 
> but many, cheers Megan R
> 
> This message was sent through MyMail
> http://www.mymail.com.au
> 
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Question about Chickenpox

2004-10-05 Thread Abby and Toby
>>I was only about 5 days into my first week of midwifery training (& never
had it as a child).
Hope all goes well.
Regards, Tina H. (Brisbane)

Thanks Tina, we went to the docs today and it is not chickenpox. Her few
spots on her arms and chest cleared up, she is prone to rashes, and she
instead broke out in ulcers all through her mouth, about 15. My poor little
girl, it must be so painful. The doc said it was some kind of viral mouth
ulcer thing so we are just taking it easy, eating lots of soft bland food
and I am washing my hands heaps. I got some great homeopathics from Brauer,
one called Recovery for kids which seems to be helping amazingly.

thanks again
Love Abby

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Re: [ozmidwifery] Labours commitment to PI insurance (X posted! sorry!)

2004-10-05 Thread Abby and Toby



>>This will be done by Juila 
Gilliard and it will focused on providing solutions to the lack of PI 
insurance country wide, not just for the NT. 
He sounded sincere and i really think they 
will deliver for midwives.Kirsten. 
Darwin. 
~~~start life with a midwife~~~
 
That's excellent and inspiring news Kirsten! 
 
Love Abby 


Re: [ozmidwifery] Question about Chickenpox

2004-10-05 Thread M & T Holroyd
Hi Abby,

You should be able to get a blood test to see if you are immune to
Chickenpox.  I had this done when my daughter developed chicken pox on her
3rd Birthday... I was only about 5 days into my first week of midwifery
training (& never had it as a child).

Hope all goes well.

Regards,
Tina H. (Brisbane)

From: "Belinda Maier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Question about Chickenpox


> If you have had it then you can work with women, you should be immune now
> this is the hospital policy at wch
> Belinda
> - Original Message -
> From: "Abby and Toby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 12:06 PM
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Question about Chickenpox
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Wondering if any of you know if chickenpox can be carried by someone
that
> > doesn't actually have the virus? I am sure there is a word for this but
I
> > don't know what it is.
> >
> > My dd has chickenpox, we are pretty sure, and I have a client who could
> call
> > at anytime. Wondering if you think it is safe to support her. Could I
> carry
> > the virus? I had the pox when I was little and ended up in hospital so I
> am
> > pretty sure I won't get it again.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for replies.
> >
> > Love Abby
> >
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Re: [ozmidwifery] student placements

2004-10-05 Thread Geoff & Louise Wightman
Hi
Can a midwife who wants to brush up her 'midwifery model skills' join in
Louise
- Original Message - 
From: "Birth Centre-MBH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:30 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] student placements


Midwifery students, looking for midwifery model experience? Try applying to
the Mackay Birth Centre. PO Box 5580 Mackay Mail Centre, 4740.
We offer limited student placements. Students must be prepared to come for 4
weeks and be on call during that time. We are a small Birth Centre booking
14-16 women a month. We are in a small house (overlooking the Pioneer River)
on the grounds of the Mackay Base hospital. We haven't had any students in
ages, where are they all???
Sue & Marion






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Re: [ozmidwifery] group B strep

2004-10-05 Thread Kim Stead






 Hi Lieve
 
I would love to hear more about your practices in the Netherlands.  I am sure we could learn a lot!!

 
Kiwi Kim 
---Original Message---
 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 5/10/2004 6:41:06 p.m.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] group B strep
 
Hoi Leanne,
We have a good leaflet of the Netherlands that explains very well the
problem with GBS. Their recommandations are not to screen routinaly, but
just in  cases:
- premature rupture of membranes
- rupture of membranes more than 24 hours before established labor
- several urinary tract infections during this pregnancy, caused by GBS
- fever during labor
- previous child that suffered from an infection with GBS at birth.
Also in those cases AB is not routinely given, but evaluated.
The hospitals here are not giving these info, they nearly all do routine
controle on GBS and when positive they give AB during labor, without asking
the parents. They just state that it would kill the baby if not.
 
 
We handle in all pregnancys and births the same:
- no vaginal check ups unless a real reason
- no rupturing of the membranes
- birth at the tempo of the mothers body
- undisturbed contact of baby and mother during at least 1,5 h after birth
en so
- undisturbed start of breastfeeding
- not cutting the cord before the pulsations stopped
- next days observation of the baby in his mothers arms
 
I think that is a better prevention for illness than giving Ab and than have
the right to not respect the birthing process.
We explain all this to the parents during pregnancy and they can choose what
they want, but I will not administre AB at home.
 
greetings
Lieve
 
 
 
- Original Message -
From: "leanne wynne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 5:16 AM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] group B strep
 
 
> Hi All,
> I am interested to hear what those midwives who attend homebirths do in
> regard to group B strep. Do you screen for it or not? If you know a woman
is
> GBS positive do you give A/Bs to the mother during labour or just observe
> the baby?
> Thanks,
> Leanne.
>
> Leanne Wynne
> Midwife in charge of "Women's Business"
> Mildura Aboriginal Health Service  Mob 0418 371862
>
> _
> Click here for the latest chart ringtones:
> http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
>
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[ozmidwifery] Labours commitment to PI insurance (X posted! sorry!)

2004-10-05 Thread Callum & Kirsten



Hi everyone,
 
I just had a call from the Labour Candidate 
for Solomon, up here in the NT in reply to a letter i sent regarding 
Professional indemnity insurance for midwives in the NT.
 
He ASSURES me that he  has talked to 
several people regarding the issue, and that labour is COMMITTED (exact words) 
to taking the issue of PI insurance to the Health ministers State and Federal 
conference, when it next occurs. This will be done by Juila Gilliard and it 
will focused on providing solutions to the lack of PI insurance country 
wide, not just for the NT. 
 
He sounded sincere and i really think they 
will deliver for midwives.
 
 
Kirsten
Darwin. 
 
~~~start life with a 
midwife~~~


Re: [ozmidwifery] Students, training and other things was Re: uterinerupture 1998 & canada

2004-10-05 Thread Marilyn Kleidon
I meant "said" not saod!!

I am a little stunned by all this. It is not the discussion I had hoped for.
While I think education programs of every description must be open to
challenge and discussion and debate as well as the services we provide, this
went somewhere else.

Anyway...

I remain stunned.

I do have some email addresses of Canadian midwives who I went to school
with in Seattle. Where in Canada are you going Trish? I have 2 friends who
run a free-standing birth centre in Bellingham, Washington, USA  just south
of Vancouver BC, Canada. A border crossing maybe? I also have friends in
Vancouver and in a little town near London, Ontario. I will be checking out
their email addresses to see if they are still current. If you want to visit
birth centers in Canada do a google search for free-standing birth centers
in Canada they have quite a few (I found them when I was doing that search a
while back).

keep on keeping on

marilyn
- Original Message - 
From: "Marilyn Kleidon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Students, training and other things was Re:
uterinerupture 1998


> Wonderfully saod trish. Please don't give up.
>
> marilyn
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Trish David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Students, training and other things was Re:
> uterinerupture 1998
>
>
> > Abby, if I didn't think I was trying to impart a degree of wisdom, and
> > assist students to find their own wisdom, together with the women (heard
> > of the follow-through experience???) and the lovely midwives in
> > hospitals who assist them with onsite learning, and the VERY occassional
> > homebirth midwife who can take a student... then I would give it up.
> > With (diminishing) respect, evaluate a curriculum or two, enrol in a
> > midwifery program, and don't generalise what you see in a workshop of 10
> > midwives to what is taught in every curriculum in Australia.
> >
> > Every curriculum I have evaluated has a focus on non-intervention for
> > 'normal' childbearing and that includes programs from 4 states in
> > Australia, both postgraduate and undergraduate. I have participated in
> > curriculum development at undergraduate, grad dip and masters level
> > midwifery and used programs from NZ, Holland, Scandinavia and UK and
> > Canada for inspiration and international comparison. And I know many
> > colleagues in other universities who have done the same. In addition, we
> > now have Standards to which we are held that are based in international
> > benchmarks for midwifery education, and there are moves now to develop
> > more national benchmarks in what is offered in midwifery programs. Your
> > criticisms are hollow in the face of this real work. Your rhetoric is
> > empty of real examples.
> >
> > My students learn active birth, pelvic mapping, physiological processes,
> > support for all of this and many have also been to 'workshops' with ten
> > midwives and say they learned little new that wasn't offered in their
> > program. hmmm. I encourage them to go, though, because they
> > sometimes bring something new back for me, too.
> >
> > As to the third world, yes, I have seen the Birthrites video, too, it is
> > wonderful, but only a very small sample of what is out there and
> > certainly can't be generalised to the rest of the world. Through ICM/WHO
> > documents etc as well as direct communication with women and midwives
> > know that the problems in many countries cannot be fixed with a few
> > herbs, no matter how good their public health and nutrition. Have a look
> > at another fabulous video "Celebrations" about the role of midwives
> > across cultures and contexts. Women die because they don't have access
> > to a 'facility' that can offer them antibiotics, anaesthesia and
> > operative birth. They die of tetanus and pnuemonia, of septicaemia and
> > blood loss, of obstructed labour and AIDS. Planting crops and fixing
> > plumbing is one aspect of what is needed here, but good nutrition and
> > education take two-three generations to improve the health of a
> > population. In the meantime these individual women are just trying to
> > stay alive.
> >
> > Women in these contexts want good drugs, skilled users of instruments
> > and operative procedures, immunisation and contraception, safe abortion,
> > nutritional supplements and freedom from patriarchal, economic,
> > religious and political oppression. They want TBAs with western as well
> > as traditional learning, they want access to western trained doctors and
> > midwives, nurses and dentists, etc. Midwifery cannot stand alone to
> > deliver, we need to put aside a moral highground and work with all
> > sectors of health and education, etc to achieve outcomes in thees
> > contexts.
> >
> > Dare I say it, the same is true here. In many, many gov't reports women
> > in Au

Re: [ozmidwifery] Students, training and other things was Re: uterinerupture 1998

2004-10-05 Thread Marilyn Kleidon
Wonderfully saod trish. Please don't give up.

marilyn
- Original Message - 
From: "Trish David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Students, training and other things was Re:
uterinerupture 1998


> Abby, if I didn't think I was trying to impart a degree of wisdom, and
> assist students to find their own wisdom, together with the women (heard
> of the follow-through experience???) and the lovely midwives in
> hospitals who assist them with onsite learning, and the VERY occassional
> homebirth midwife who can take a student... then I would give it up.
> With (diminishing) respect, evaluate a curriculum or two, enrol in a
> midwifery program, and don't generalise what you see in a workshop of 10
> midwives to what is taught in every curriculum in Australia.
>
> Every curriculum I have evaluated has a focus on non-intervention for
> 'normal' childbearing and that includes programs from 4 states in
> Australia, both postgraduate and undergraduate. I have participated in
> curriculum development at undergraduate, grad dip and masters level
> midwifery and used programs from NZ, Holland, Scandinavia and UK and
> Canada for inspiration and international comparison. And I know many
> colleagues in other universities who have done the same. In addition, we
> now have Standards to which we are held that are based in international
> benchmarks for midwifery education, and there are moves now to develop
> more national benchmarks in what is offered in midwifery programs. Your
> criticisms are hollow in the face of this real work. Your rhetoric is
> empty of real examples.
>
> My students learn active birth, pelvic mapping, physiological processes,
> support for all of this and many have also been to 'workshops' with ten
> midwives and say they learned little new that wasn't offered in their
> program. hmmm. I encourage them to go, though, because they
> sometimes bring something new back for me, too.
>
> As to the third world, yes, I have seen the Birthrites video, too, it is
> wonderful, but only a very small sample of what is out there and
> certainly can't be generalised to the rest of the world. Through ICM/WHO
> documents etc as well as direct communication with women and midwives
> know that the problems in many countries cannot be fixed with a few
> herbs, no matter how good their public health and nutrition. Have a look
> at another fabulous video "Celebrations" about the role of midwives
> across cultures and contexts. Women die because they don't have access
> to a 'facility' that can offer them antibiotics, anaesthesia and
> operative birth. They die of tetanus and pnuemonia, of septicaemia and
> blood loss, of obstructed labour and AIDS. Planting crops and fixing
> plumbing is one aspect of what is needed here, but good nutrition and
> education take two-three generations to improve the health of a
> population. In the meantime these individual women are just trying to
> stay alive.
>
> Women in these contexts want good drugs, skilled users of instruments
> and operative procedures, immunisation and contraception, safe abortion,
> nutritional supplements and freedom from patriarchal, economic,
> religious and political oppression. They want TBAs with western as well
> as traditional learning, they want access to western trained doctors and
> midwives, nurses and dentists, etc. Midwifery cannot stand alone to
> deliver, we need to put aside a moral highground and work with all
> sectors of health and education, etc to achieve outcomes in thees
> contexts.
>
> Dare I say it, the same is true here. In many, many gov't reports women
> in Australia want an integrated maternity service that uses the best
> talents of all practitioners working together to offer choice (including
> all the unpalatable ones like epidural, induction and LUSCS on demand,
> all of which I would cringe at).
>
> Yes, midwives are 'trained' differently now. Now we have to learn how to
> be discerning consumers of research, to critique all forms of dogma, to
> understand the physiology, not just rote-learn something, we must also
> understand a rationale for actions and learn to be fully accountable for
> them, we must commit to lifelong learning, to participate in quality
> improvement of services, and to work in a multi-disciplinary environment
> with a wide variety of women. We no longer have the excuse of this is
> the way I was taught I believe we are coming to quite a good
> balance, though we are not there yet. I look forward to the day when
> there are enough homebirths for students to participate in, enough
> homebirth midwives for them to learn from, and enough midwife-led
> programs for them to work in whilst in hospitals. For now, we don't have
> that, but we sure teach students what that is about. Every program I
> have read has whole units devoted to political issues and professional
> issues in midwifery and maternity. The scope is m

Re: [ozmidwifery] Students, training and other things was Re: uterine rupture 1998

2004-10-05 Thread Marilyn Kleidon



You have both said it all very well i 
think.
 
marilyn

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jen 
  Semple 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 6:33 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Students, 
  training and other things was Re: uterine rupture 1998
  
  Yes, Kirsten.  Well said.  I was wondering how longit would 
  take a student to write!  :o)
   
  JenCallum & Kirsten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:
  



Dear Abby,
 I couldn't close my mouth anymore, 
sorry!
 
You give a poor impression of midwifery 
training in Australia. Coming from NZ, it's true its not the absolute 
greatest, BUT i can say that the universities here DO NOT teach a 
medicalised model of care.
 
I am quite happy with my university and 
so far ALL my clinical experience has been with woman having homebirths and 
homebirth midwives, although in saying that, there are some wonderful 
midwives who i admire who also work in the public system!
 
As for the debate on VE's etc, just 
because we learn something does not mean we will all go out and perform them 
every 5 minutes! There are many skills taught to us that could be seen as 
unnecessary interventions,  why as Andrea Robertson in the Midwife 
Companion  ( love this book!) says,  talking unnecessarily to a 
woman in labour and distracting her can slow things down! 
 
Personally i would rather be confident 
and competent in these skills so if i have to do them i am gentle and cause 
as less harm and discomfort as i can to the woman. I would hate to be 
ignoarant and say " i don't need these interventionalist skills" and then 
have to perform a VE and not be able to do it carefully and 
gently.
There are still many woman out there who 
request them, even if you don't think so.
 
Again, my philosophies on birth will not 
change just because i have certain skills in my knowledge base, they don't 
change who i am or what kind of (student) midwife i am, or how i see 
things.
 
Many of the skills we learn don't come 
from the uni itself, it's when we are on clinical placements and with our 
follow thru woman that we learn the most. I am forever indebited to the 
woman who have allowed me to be with them and to the amazing midwives who 
offer their advice and support. It is them all who i learn the most off, not 
textbooks, not the uni.
 
Cheers,
Kirsten
Darwin.
  
  
  Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: uterine rupture 1998

2004-10-05 Thread Abby and Toby



>>I believe that you are coming from the 
right place in your heart, but sometimes we need to take a step back & think 
about how others may perceive us if we want to be listened to at all. I am 
speaking as someone who has learnt this lesson & skill recently. Your 
opinion is valued.Philippa ScottBirth Buddies
 
Thanks for the advice Phillipa, I'll keep that in 
mind. lol! Funny how it seems that I don't already do that. It is hard with 
plain text. I'm sure it wouldn't of caused such a problem if I was talking IRL 
about it..or maybe it would because it does go against the grain, or maybe 
it would because I am not a midwife and haven't been there..who 
knows.
I definitely didn't mean to cause any offense, I 
really was talking about the system.
 
I will keep your advice in mind and keep on 
trying.
 
Love Abby- always learning always standing 
corrected.


[ozmidwifery] primary accouchuer (aka catching or delivering the baby)

2004-10-05 Thread gresch
Can I comment from Jen's earlier email, particularly "ACMI requirement is that we are 
the primary accouchuer (aka catching or delivering the baby) for 40 non-instrumental 
births".

I am really troubled with this requirement. I understand the idea behind it but 
shouldn't the birthing woman decide who catches her baby.
I have caught three of my babies, all water births at home and passionately defend my 
right to. With my last birth we were joined by a 3rd year BMid and I remember her 
asking about who would catch the baby, later it occured to me that she might not be 
able to "tick me off" her list of 40 catches as I was to catch my baby. My Ind Midwife 
didn't catch them either, but she was still the primary care giver.
I would like to see a change of thinking on this requirement, I see it as 
disrespectful to the birthing woman and the role Midives have in birth.
Feeling your own cervix dilate is amazing, but catching your own baby is bloody awsome!

whats the discussion on this at the Uni's and ACMI?

cheers
Megan

PS I am happy to put this in writing to the appropriate people (?) to give food for 
thought.

This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au


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Re: [ozmidwifery] Catty midwives

2004-10-05 Thread Abby and Toby
Hi Trish,

I think we must be completely misunderstanding each other.

As for the doula thing...well I think I made myself clear during the
whole doula vs midwife conversation.

I don't know how you see that what I was saying is in any way an attack on
midwives, I am really sorry if it came across that way, as I said before,
that was not my intent. I value midwives, appreciate midwives and have met
some very amazing and inspiring midwives as also in the doulaing world.

I know of no doula trainer that would be in it for the money. At the recent
doula conference, alot of the trainers were there and I think everyone that
was there would agree that the trainers were all in it for the women.

I don't claim to be a "professional" anything nor do I hide behind "just a
mum" I think you have misread what I was saying. I am not, by saying who I
am, saying that nothing I say is valid, quite the contrary.

I am really sorry Trish, that you see my disagreement with some opinions as
"pot shots". I actually see my opinion as valid as learned and as a
consumer. I am unlearned against the "training" of a midwife, but am learned
from what I have done through midwifery courses, doula training and self
study. Though, most my "learned" opinions come from spending time with
women, battered or not so battered, by the system.

I'm sorry my comments came across as an attack. Please accept my apology, I
had no malice toward midwives in my comments, I was stating my opinion and
things I understood and had learned.

>>"Midwives (99.8% of them) are women, too. Many of them also identify as
'just a mum' (1/3 of my students are mothers in grad program, and about
1/2 in undergrad), and they would appreciate other mothers such as
yourself standing with them.."

I have to admit that I am not sure how I am not standing with them by
disagreeing with the way the education system for midwives is? I believe,
from reading your comments such as this one, that you are not understanding
what I am saying.

>>"You could be a really useful pain in the  for the slack and crappy
care providers out there "

Oh Trish, if only you knew me in real life...

>>"(not supported by the evidence, however,
as most women are happy with the care of midwives in whatever setting, so
perhaps we need to tap into your samples, Abby)."

Could you direct me to the place where that evidence is Trish? As part of
being a doula I have to get credit points each year and hand in reports,
book reviews, attend workshops and we are encouraged research about
everything we learn from all sides. ( I guess that answers your earlier
thoughts) So i would love to read up on this evidence and write a report on
it. I think it is fantastic that women are happy with services, how
wonderful for those women. Unfortunately though, I get contacted mostly by
the women that have had traumatic birth experiences, been treated badly etc
etc. I also have friends that have had amazing experiences. Once again I
will say that I think you have misunderstood my writings. I am not anti
midwives, gosh not at all! I admit I am anti hospitals as an institution for
birth, but that is a very personal choice for women and I respect that.

I am sorry if I have said anything that offends you personally, really I am.
I had no idea that speaking out about midwifery training in australia would
be so offensive. The midwives and students I have spent time with felt the
same way as I do, infact they opened my eyes to it.

I hope your throat is feeling much better soon.
Love Abby







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Re: [ozmidwifery] group B strep

2004-10-05 Thread Lieve Huybrechts
Hoi Leanne,
We have a good leaflet of the Netherlands that explains very well the
problem with GBS. Their recommandations are not to screen routinaly, but
just in  cases:
- premature rupture of membranes
- rupture of membranes more than 24 hours before established labor
- several urinary tract infections during this pregnancy, caused by GBS
- fever during labor
- previous child that suffered from an infection with GBS at birth.
Also in those cases AB is not routinely given, but evaluated.
The hospitals here are not giving these info, they nearly all do routine
controle on GBS and when positive they give AB during labor, without asking
the parents. They just state that it would kill the baby if not.


We handle in all pregnancys and births the same:
- no vaginal check ups unless a real reason
- no rupturing of the membranes
- birth at the tempo of the mothers body
- undisturbed contact of baby and mother during at least 1,5 h after birth
en so
- undisturbed start of breastfeeding
- not cutting the cord before the pulsations stopped
- next days observation of the baby in his mothers arms

I think that is a better prevention for illness than giving Ab and than have
the right to not respect the birthing process.
We explain all this to the parents during pregnancy and they can choose what
they want, but I will not administre AB at home.

greetings
Lieve



- Original Message - 
From: "leanne wynne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 5:16 AM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] group B strep


> Hi All,
> I am interested to hear what those midwives who attend homebirths do in
> regard to group B strep. Do you screen for it or not? If you know a woman
is
> GBS positive do you give A/Bs to the mother during labour or just observe
> the baby?
> Thanks,
> Leanne.
>
> Leanne Wynne
> Midwife in charge of "Women's Business"
> Mildura Aboriginal Health Service  Mob 0418 371862
>
> _
> Click here for the latest chart ringtones:
> http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
>
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
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RE: [ozmidwifery] group B strep

2004-10-05 Thread Sharon Dalton
In addition to Leanne's question re homebirth and Group B Strep, do
Birth Centres in Aust (particularly Qld) routinely screen and treat as
well.  If yes and the women refuse are they denied birth centre care?
Cheers Sharon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of leanne wynne
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 1:17 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ozmidwifery] group B strep

Hi All,
I am interested to hear what those midwives who attend homebirths do in 
regard to group B strep. Do you screen for it or not? If you know a
woman is 
GBS positive do you give A/Bs to the mother during labour or just
observe 
the baby?
Thanks,
Leanne.

Leanne Wynne
Midwife in charge of "Women's Business"
Mildura Aboriginal Health Service  Mob 0418 371862

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