[P2P-F] the inacceptability of a culture of permanent personal attacks

[Michel Bauwens]

Need we say more,

now I have been promoted to a fascist that kills people:

as willi wrote:

"But what Michel do, and some followers, is a very different thing. It is
a fascistic action. "If you are not my friend, or the friend of my
friend, then you are my enemy". Then i kill you (based on the action
level). "

Enough already, it is not acceptable to simply ignore this, this has no
place in p2p culture,

For the record, willi is not my enemy, but of resolving political
differences through personal attacks, definitely is,

Michel

-- 
Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Updates:
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
___
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
http://www.p2pfoundation.net
https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Re: [P2P-F] P2P Foundation List Moderation Notice

[Michel Bauwens]

one more time,

in a collegiate decision, it was decided not to actively campaign against
the abuses of the flok mgt, and I abide by that collective decision,

there was no secrecy, the decision, the evaluation, the core members of the
p2p foundation, all this info is publicly available and Gordon knows this
well and has been informed of it countless times,

the real issue is that Gordon is on a warpath and does not accept that we
can not follow him in this,

if I were facing the existential issues of Gordon, I would not spend my
time on this either, apart from the political differences in judgment on
how to use one's limited energy and time; there is so much positive that
Gordon could continue to do, given his stellar record on describing the
emergence of progressive technological infrastructures and the social
movements and individuals that suppport it, that the continued and
obsessive focus on a few rotten apples is a waste of valuable energy.

I am equally disappointed in Gordon, that, instead of focusing on the
abuses and the abusers, he is focusing his anger on the only person that
publicly challenged it, and that spent an inordinate amount of time
defending Gordon, despite his multiple exagerations ...

this is for the public record, one more time, as indicated, we decided not
to enter further into this particular controversy,

Michel




On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Gordon Cook  wrote:

> And i am afraid that i am still resentful of Michels attitude about the
> core members who were being attacked and his decision to fall silent to the
> attackers to ensure that they would leave his "core' members alone.,  A
> situation made worse by his repost to a FALSE secrecy whereby the core
> members could not be identified absent a pledge not to reveal their
> identity.  When all the time for the true insiders who knew where to look,
> as Orsan pointed out the core members had their own entry in the wiki all
> along.  michel playing games with me simply neglected to point this out.
> And trifled with me yet again.  The first trifling was not being honest
> with me when those in control in Ecuador DV BG et all were trashing my work
> behind my back while michel rather than informing of this encouraged me to
> finish and waste  yet more time which i did because ….. foolish me…. i
> still trusted Michel.
>
> I was getting the p2p blog just fine until this blew open.  Kevin
> suggested feedly as an RSS mechanism and if i remember correctly feedly
> requires Facebook.  Sorry i despise Facebook and won't use it.  You are
> damn right folks there is a governance problem here.  And for me the key
> issue is that i find michel no longer trustworthy.  being told that the
> identity of core members is a secret when it in fact is NOT is not
> conducive to trust.  Being promise a full report on what happened in
> ecuador only to renig on that promise when BG goes wild is not conducive to
> trust.
>
> I once had a great deal of hope for and respect of Michels work.  I have
> that no longer. why should i given his behavior this summer?
>
> If this counts as an unacceptable attack on Michel, then you better remove
> me.  You people are moving out from the sidelines into the tough political
> arena where things are gong to get nastier and from you what we have then
> here is a display worthy of school kids.
>
> You are going to play with CIC in Spain like you played in ecuador.  But
> the playing field is occupied by individuals that appear to hate each
> other.  How is THAT going to work to build trust?  And you see that absent
> Michels carrying out his solemn promise on which he has reneged there is no
> way for a sympathetic outsider to make a judgement.
>
> On Aug 21, 2014, at 9:21 PM, Kevin Flanagan 
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Willi,
> >
> > I do not make decisions to unsubscribe people from the list
> > unilaterally. Many people have complained both publicly and privately
> > about your behaviour. Personal attacks are not acceptable.
> >
> > In the case of this mailing list. Where an individual is not willing to
> > abide by the culture and norms of the list then s/he are welcome to
> > unsubscribe and move on.
> >
> > I am offering you here a opportunity to resolve this conflict.
> > Here are the terms. It's really quite simple.
> >
> > If in the next 24 hours from the time of this email you are willing to
> > reconsider your behavior on this list, apologize for that behavior
> > publicly on list and will refrain from further personal attacks in
> > future. Then you are welcome to stay.
> >
> > If these terms are not acceptable then I offer you 24hrs from the time
> > of this email to unsubscribe. If you have not unsubscribed in that time
> > I will exercise my responsibilities as list moderator and will do it for
> > you.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Kevin Flanagan
> > P2P Foundation Mailing List Moderator
> >
> > ___
> > P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> > http://www.p2pfoundation

Re: [P2P-F] P2P Foundation List Moderation Notice

[Michel Bauwens]

this is not about opinions Quirilo,

it's about a systematic policy of defamation and disinformation,

in my case, I was accused of being an austrian economist, while i am in
opposition to it, david is accused of doing his commons work for political
gain, allianzia solidaria in quito, the best coop we've seen in 6 months of
study, was accused etc .. etc ... it is the standard operating procedure of
willi and it degrades the culture of discourse

stick to arguments, don't use freedom of speech to systematically attack
the personal integrity of your brothers and comrades,

you are free to do this, but not here,

refrain from personal attacks, and there is absolute no issue of staying on
the list




On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Quiliro Ordóñez Baca <
quil...@congresolibre.org> wrote:

> I feel someone's exclusion because they speak their mind out is the
> worst kind of censorship. The worst insult a person can suffer is
> censorship. I think that it is only seen where people of low cultural
> level stay. It is fear of being disapproved which motivates censorship.
> It is low self esteem. "Get out or I will kick you out" is a very bully
> kind of attitude.
>
> I was asking to become part of this list. But censorship does not make
> me feel there is a neutral point of view or an academic environment but
> a dogmatic one. Please ignore my petitions to subscribe to this list.
>
>
>
> El 21/08/14 a las 20:51, willi uebelherr escibió:
> >
> > Dear Kevin,
> >
> > i respect your doing and can accept it. I am new on your list, we
> > never find a clear base of our principles and vision. So, what can i
> > do on this list? To look for interest contribution i can use the archive.
> >
> > With the request from Michel i saw, this is a private space from
> > Michel and, maybe, you have to act like an employee. I don't
> > understand the backsides. Gordon talked about. You can also shorten
> > the period. This is my last mail to the list.
> >
> > 3 persons vote for exclusion, 2 persons was not sure, 1 person
> > against. Maybe, some people vote silent for exclusion. They have no
> > power to speak open.
> >
> > I know, this is a personal conflict from Michel with me since the FLOK
> > project. Never i attacked a person on this list. I have criticized,
> > have questioned. And this i always do it. And i like people, they do
> > the same. I hate people without agreement of thinking and doing. I
> > know, many people don't like this style. They want to speak around.
> >
> > many greetings, willi
> > Popayan, Colombia
> >
> >
> > Am 21/08/2014 um 20:21 schrieb Kevin Flanagan:
> >> Dear Willi,
> >>
> >> I do not make decisions to unsubscribe people from the list
> >> unilaterally. Many people have complained both publicly and privately
> >> about your behaviour. Personal attacks are not acceptable.
> >>
> >> In the case of this mailing list. Where an individual is not willing to
> >> abide by the culture and norms of the list then s/he are welcome to
> >> unsubscribe and move on.
> >>
> >> I am offering you here a opportunity to resolve this conflict.
> >> Here are the terms. It's really quite simple.
> >>
> >> If in the next 24 hours from the time of this email you are willing to
> >> reconsider your behavior on this list, apologize for that behavior
> >> publicly on list and will refrain from further personal attacks in
> >> future. Then you are welcome to stay.
> >>
> >> If these terms are not acceptable then I offer you 24hrs from the time
> >> of this email to unsubscribe. If you have not unsubscribed in that time
> >> I will exercise my responsibilities as list moderator and will do it for
> >> you.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Kevin Flanagan
> >> P2P Foundation Mailing List Moderator
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Saludos libres,
> Quiliro Ordóñez
> 600 8579
>
>
>


-- 
Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Updates:
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
___
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
http://www.p2pfoundation.net
https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Re: [P2P-F] P2P Foundation List Moderation Notice

[Gordon Cook]

And i am afraid that i am still resentful of Michels attitude about the core 
members who were being attacked and his decision to fall silent to the 
attackers to ensure that they would leave his "core' members alone.,  A 
situation made worse by his repost to a FALSE secrecy whereby the core members 
could not be identified absent a pledge not to reveal their identity.  When all 
the time for the true insiders who knew where to look, as Orsan pointed out the 
core members had their own entry in the wiki all along.  michel playing games 
with me simply neglected to point this out.  And trifled with me yet again.  
The first trifling was not being honest with me when those in control in 
Ecuador DV BG et all were trashing my work behind my back while michel rather 
than informing of this encouraged me to finish and waste  yet more time which i 
did because ….. foolish me…. i still trusted Michel.

I was getting the p2p blog just fine until this blew open.  Kevin suggested 
feedly as an RSS mechanism and if i remember correctly feedly requires 
Facebook.  Sorry i despise Facebook and won't use it.  You are damn right folks 
there is a governance problem here.  And for me the key issue is that i find 
michel no longer trustworthy.  being told that the identity of core members is 
a secret when it in fact is NOT is not conducive to trust.  Being promise a 
full report on what happened in ecuador only to renig on that promise when BG 
goes wild is not conducive to trust.

I once had a great deal of hope for and respect of Michels work.  I have that 
no longer. why should i given his behavior this summer?

If this counts as an unacceptable attack on Michel, then you better remove me.  
You people are moving out from the sidelines into the tough political arena 
where things are gong to get nastier and from you what we have then here is a 
display worthy of school kids.

You are going to play with CIC in Spain like you played in ecuador.  But the 
playing field is occupied by individuals that appear to hate each other.  How 
is THAT going to work to build trust?  And you see that absent Michels carrying 
out his solemn promise on which he has reneged there is no way for a 
sympathetic outsider to make a judgement.

On Aug 21, 2014, at 9:21 PM, Kevin Flanagan  wrote:

> Dear Willi,
> 
> I do not make decisions to unsubscribe people from the list
> unilaterally. Many people have complained both publicly and privately
> about your behaviour. Personal attacks are not acceptable.
> 
> In the case of this mailing list. Where an individual is not willing to
> abide by the culture and norms of the list then s/he are welcome to
> unsubscribe and move on.
> 
> I am offering you here a opportunity to resolve this conflict.
> Here are the terms. It's really quite simple.
> 
> If in the next 24 hours from the time of this email you are willing to
> reconsider your behavior on this list, apologize for that behavior
> publicly on list and will refrain from further personal attacks in
> future. Then you are welcome to stay.
> 
> If these terms are not acceptable then I offer you 24hrs from the time
> of this email to unsubscribe. If you have not unsubscribed in that time
> I will exercise my responsibilities as list moderator and will do it for
> you.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Kevin Flanagan
> P2P Foundation Mailing List Moderator
> 
> ___
> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> 

Gordon Cook, 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618
c...@cookreport.com, 1 - (609) 882-2572 - phone





signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
___
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
http://www.p2pfoundation.net
https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Re: [P2P-F] P2P Foundation List Moderation Notice

[willi uebelherr]

Dear Kevin,

i respect your doing and can accept it. I am new on your list, we never 
find a clear base of our principles and vision. So, what can i do on 
this list? To look for interest contribution i can use the archive.

With the request from Michel i saw, this is a private space from Michel 
and, maybe, you have to act like an employee. I don't understand the 
backsides. Gordon talked about. You can also shorten the period. This is 
my last mail to the list.

3 persons vote for exclusion, 2 persons was not sure, 1 person against. 
Maybe, some people vote silent for exclusion. They have no power to 
speak open.

I know, this is a personal conflict from Michel with me since the FLOK 
project. Never i attacked a person on this list. I have criticized, have 
questioned. And this i always do it. And i like people, they do the 
same. I hate people without agreement of thinking and doing. I know, 
many people don't like this style. They want to speak around.

many greetings, willi
Popayan, Colombia


Am 21/08/2014 um 20:21 schrieb Kevin Flanagan:
> Dear Willi,
>
> I do not make decisions to unsubscribe people from the list
> unilaterally. Many people have complained both publicly and privately
> about your behaviour. Personal attacks are not acceptable.
>
> In the case of this mailing list. Where an individual is not willing to
> abide by the culture and norms of the list then s/he are welcome to
> unsubscribe and move on.
>
> I am offering you here a opportunity to resolve this conflict.
> Here are the terms. It's really quite simple.
>
> If in the next 24 hours from the time of this email you are willing to
> reconsider your behavior on this list, apologize for that behavior
> publicly on list and will refrain from further personal attacks in
> future. Then you are welcome to stay.
>
> If these terms are not acceptable then I offer you 24hrs from the time
> of this email to unsubscribe. If you have not unsubscribed in that time
> I will exercise my responsibilities as list moderator and will do it for
> you.
>
> Regards
>
> Kevin Flanagan
> P2P Foundation Mailing List Moderator
>

___
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
http://www.p2pfoundation.net
https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

[P2P-F] P2P Foundation List Moderation Notice

[Kevin Flanagan]

Dear Willi,

I do not make decisions to unsubscribe people from the list
unilaterally. Many people have complained both publicly and privately
about your behaviour. Personal attacks are not acceptable.

In the case of this mailing list. Where an individual is not willing to
abide by the culture and norms of the list then s/he are welcome to
unsubscribe and move on.

I am offering you here a opportunity to resolve this conflict.
Here are the terms. It's really quite simple.

If in the next 24 hours from the time of this email you are willing to
reconsider your behavior on this list, apologize for that behavior
publicly on list and will refrain from further personal attacks in
future. Then you are welcome to stay.

If these terms are not acceptable then I offer you 24hrs from the time
of this email to unsubscribe. If you have not unsubscribed in that time
I will exercise my responsibilities as list moderator and will do it for
you.

Regards

Kevin Flanagan
P2P Foundation Mailing List Moderator

___
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
http://www.p2pfoundation.net
https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 44, Issue 43

[Kevin Carson]

IMO it's not his desperation or valid questions that's the problem. It's
that he's unable or unwilling to express them without resorting to personal
attacks and conspiratorial speculations.


On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Anna  wrote:

> I do not find Willi's 'desperation' as inadmissible as others seem to find
> it. It raises a question which is seriously being addressed in other
> circles about how to make a living while making one's work available to as
> many as possible. We can focus on the principles he raises without getting
> offended by the personal criticism. They are important questions. By
> excluding him we only weaken the diversity expressed on this list,
> diversity which actually enriches rather than threatens our aspirations.
> Individuals can exclude his contributions if they wish, without restricting
> the traffic of the whole.
>
> Anna
>
> On 21 Aug 2014, at 07:25, Denis Postle  wrote:
>
> I don't doubt Willi has to go.
>
> If you are reading this Willi, your messages seem to be written from a
> place of distressed desperation and I suspect that with the Bollier book
> message you may, intentionally or not, be actually seeking rejection. Some
> of us can get into a psy framework where such rejection is necessary to
> sustain our view of the world or ourselves and eventually we may succeed in
> getting our wish.
>
> That said, I wonder if there is anything we need to attend to re P2P
> Foundation governance and its (our)  public presence? Don't Willi's
> provocations amount to the third such attack this year on, or resistance
> to, the P2P Foundation's accumulation of power? At a minimum, the power to
> define what matters in economic and social futures?
>
> I don't know the answer to this but having experienced a few attacks
> myself, I have come to see all dissent, including that coming from
> distress, as carrying a story that can have value for the target. What is
> this opposition trying to tell us?
>
> I find the Foundation hugely valuable but I still find its, (our?)
> governance less than transparent. The present debacle has been useful for
> me in opening this out a bit and also in providing an example for the
> parallel  discussion under 'matriarchy' which provides a very relevant
> context for these questions.
>
> Thanks Michel for the facebook posting of some of my remarks there.
>
> Goodbye Willi. Take care.
>
> Denis
>
> On 20/08/2014 18:09, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>
> I used to maintain a strong rule of no personal attacks on the list, but I
> must say I have gotten tired to be the only one reacting,
>
>  Willi, who is notorious for these kinds of attacks and false
> accusations, is clearly making a gratuitous accusation against our friend
> David Bollier, whom I know as a lifelong activist for the commons, at great
> personal sacrifice, and the contrary of someone who uses the commons for
> private personal gain.
>
>  does everyone find that normal ? do we have to the time to spend
> answering such provocations ?
>
>  personally, it is here that I would give a warning to Willi, and say,
> this is not the place for such unsupported attacks, and please abstain or
> you will have to leave this forum.
>
>  But for Willi, this is just been systematic practice, so the warnings
> have been repeated endlessly in various forums, and it has had no effect,
>
>  So I'm requesting the removal of Willi from this list, as he has been
> removed recently from the networked labour list, exactly for the same
> reason,
>
>  Kevin, as list manager, I believe this is your job?
>
>  personal defamation is not an acceptable practice on this list,
>
>  I am not going to get into a debate on this, but if any people would
> find it such practices normal, I would propose to disband this list and
> start a new one where this rule is made clear from the very beginning,
> avoiding endless discussions on it,
>
>  Michel Bauwens
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: 
> Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:49 PM
> Subject: P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 44, Issue 43
> To: p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
>
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 09:49:22 -0500
> From: willi uebelherr 
> Subject: [P2P-F] Fwd: Book of the Day: Think Like a Commoner
>
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> i love the contributions of hartsellml. You think, David Bollier is
> working for the commons?
>
> No. You see, he want to sell his books only. Try to find a free access
> to his writing. He use the commons resource, our discussion, our
> visions, our doing, our history to make a private buisness with his
> description.
>
> many greetings, willi
>
>
>
>  Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
> Betreff: Book of the Day: Think Like a Commoner
> Datum:   Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:35:36 PDT
> Von: hartsellml
>
> Book of the Day: Think Like a Commoner
>
> ** Book: Think Like a Commoner
> . A Short
> Introduction to the Life of the Commons by David Bollier. New Society,
> 2014*

Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 44, Issue 43

[willi uebelherr]

Knowledge is always Worldheritage

Dear friends,

I use the thread from Orsan for a short answer.

I will explain. If we accept, that knowlegeis always worldheritage, a 
universal Commons, then never we can demand a private property on our 
knowledge and history. No matter how we put it. If we describe our 
history and activities of our contemporaries, then it is common 
knowledge. Because the history and the activities of other people is 
always common knowledge. We contribute nothing. We only describe.

The distribution of our understanding and thinking was controled from 
private institutions. Publishing corporations. But now, we don't need 
it. We can go the way what we see at www.archive.org. But much more 
radical. We can install in any place a center for printing and 
bookbinding. Then the people, they like to read a book, thay can do it.

But never we support any closed e-pub in our live like kindle or amazon 
or any other shit.

But what Michel do, and some followers, is a very different thing. It is 
a fascistic action. "If you are not my friend, or the friend of my 
friend, then you are my enemy". Then i kill you (based on the action 
level). This process we find it everywhere in our world. It is a sign of 
inner weakness. We have this polarisation very strong in latin america 
around the state. Of course, the state or any rule institution are 
always the core of fascism, the focus of any activity.

I have many experience with exclusions. In Germany most, because i speak 
very clear about the dissolution of Israel. For a free palestine. And 
also on the P2P-lang-es list it was the startpoint for exclusion. For 
the awakening of hatred.

many greetings, willi
now: Popayan, Colombia



Am 21/08/2014 um 05:29 schrieb Orsan:
> In my humble opinion, as Kevin recalled the territory of the commons and p2p 
> has been [as Rifkin reminds since the 90s] a highly contested class-war 
> terrain, it becomes more and more visible now with advancments in the 
> theorization and practices of commoning, as well as the  politics of it. so 
> all these are taking place under increasing pressure, inflitration and 
> critical scrutiny from people as we observe.
> I just looked into, for instance the 1Net list, to see Willi's list activity 
> there and saw that he writes pretty decent there. So I think, there are 
> places he behaves consciously like a troll, since may be has serious doubts, 
> which he might be gahtered from he net, conspiracyies, or from ral critics. 
> Then he mihgt not be able to formulate these worries or doubts in a sense 
> making arguments.
> Anyway thie we may never be knowing, since his interventions triggers 
> mistrust, emotional flows and tension. Which is not useful to him, to others 
> and it only serves for confusion. Anyway when it sunds like there is 
> technical merit in the things he says adn tried to do, wel in the things he 
> say politically and personally destructive, for himself and his probably 
> point making stand point, and appears injustified and injust against his 
> targets. it is a vioance against those silent watchers on the list.
> o.
>
>
>> On 21 aug. 2014, at 10:49, Anna  wrote:
>>
>> I do not find Willi's 'desperation' as inadmissible as others seem to find 
>> it. It raises a question which is seriously being addressed in other circles 
>> about how to make a living while making one's work available to as many as 
>> possible. We can focus on the principles he raises without getting offended 
>> by the personal criticism. They are important questions. By excluding him we 
>> only weaken the diversity expressed on this list, diversity which actually 
>> enriches rather than threatens our aspirations. Individuals can exclude his 
>> contributions if they wish, without restricting the traffic of the whole.
>>
>> Anna
>>
>>> On 21 Aug 2014, at 07:25, Denis Postle  wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't doubt Willi has to go.
>>>
>>> If you are reading this Willi, your messages seem to be written from a 
>>> place of distressed desperation and I suspect that with the Bollier book 
>>> message you may, intentionally or not, be actually seeking rejection. Some 
>>> of us can get into a psy framework where such rejection is necessary to 
>>> sustain our view of the world or ourselves and eventually we may succeed in 
>>> getting our wish.
>>>
>>> That said, I wonder if there is anything we need to attend to re P2P 
>>> Foundation governance and its (our)  public presence? Don't Willi's 
>>> provocations amount to the third such attack this year on, or resistance 
>>> to, the P2P Foundation's accumulation of power? At a minimum, the power to 
>>> define what matters in economic and social futures?
>>>
>>> I don't know the answer to this but having experienced a few attacks 
>>> myself, I have come to see all dissent, including that coming from 
>>> distress, as carrying a story that can have value for the target. What is 
>>> this opposition trying to tell us?
>>>
>>> I find the Founda

Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 44, Issue 43

[June Gorman]

Yay!  An actual "case history" in "matriarchal studies", a potential 
"transformative" node of learning if one wanted to see it that way?  

And in attempting to sincerely see it in that more "potentialized" way:


Sometimes historic ignorance of all the particulars is not always a terrible 
place to come from in weighing in on a long and detailed dispute, despite one's 
wariness and admitted lack of facts.  But isn't that the kind of "history" and 
repeated breakdowns in communication that most dissension and grudges and 
conflicts really come from, in most, though not all, cases of conflict?  It 
seems to me that is an important area to be prepared to look at and resolve in 
a "Commons forum" a la Denis and Anna's comments. In particular I find the 
communication of the internet, even in mostly erudite and reasoned forums such 
as this one, consistently reflects a much greater tendency towards this very 
kind of polarized mis-communication versus interpersonal face-to-face 
communication, even when it too is also already polarized and therefore fraught 
with potholes of derailed communication. (Usually time for a good "mediator" at 
that point :-).

So I truly do see Michel's points and frustration, think it has real history 
and actual perceived hurts and damages he might feel remain unaddressed 
sufficiently by Willi.  And Willi, clearly some of what you say, the way you 
say it, definitely appears to be meant in provocation.  From a completely 
out-of-the-loop and again, ahistorical perspective it was my impression that 
you comments on David Bollier, who again I claim complete ignorance about but 
don't feel in this case I need that knowledge to ascertain this, were just 
unnecessarily provocative.   To me, and remember I tend to come from this realm 
of managing large groups of younger people and their sometimes more evidently 
honest emotional needs, it did seem a "cry for attention".  If so, it got it 
but I can't imagine in the way you actually most wanted it?

Because of my lack of knowledge of the true facts and history, despite all the 
words that have gone by on this topic on this forum, I am willing to defer to 
Michel's call on his own needs for maintaining a list (as he clearly is one of 
the ones who invests most in its maintenance), that he feels is personally 
comfortable and respectful of himself and others.  But wouldn't this very 
issue, again a la the matriarchal studies conversation that does in fact 
address this very concept of diversity and communication and frames of true 
understanding of the underlying needs attempting to be heard in that 
communication, potentially exist at the very core of how the "Commons" must 
learn to resolve such issues and disputes?  We certainly know they have to 
happen, will naturally continue to happen, are constantly happening in all such 
attempts to bridge different worlds, viewpoints, ways of seeing and 
communicating of which the "Commons" is necessarily based upon?
  Or truly how is that vision of the "Commons" going to end up any differently 
under what we already see as dominant forms of control and accepted 
communication?

It's true, not all such disputes are always resolvable.  But it is also true 
that since they will indeed be a critical part of opening the conversation of 
what makes a Commons more "common to all" despite the limits of its dominating 
forms of communication now used by everyone by default on the internet because 
of its initiators and strongest proponents --  developed-world "educated" 
English as the primary language, and left-brain rational as the primary mode of 
valued communication often ignoring emotional discriminatory or devaluing 
undertones that are still felt and heard by those sensitive to them -- that we 
have to remain blind and resigned to accepting those very limitations in that 
communication? I honestly think that will never ultimately work in creating 
that wider, broader more inclusive "Commons" discussion.

Thus, as most usually my stance, I think there is real learning to be done here 
and it is the learning most necessary to truly form these needed bridges across 
diverse communications.  I also grant how sincerely frustrating it can be to 
open these issues up to a totally foreign, and currently very 
dominant-discourse-demeaned potentially more "irrational" way to have these 
discussions, again preferably interpersonally initially, in order to get to 
true hurts and even true feelings about those trespasses.

Because I honestly and deeply believe without seeing this and subsequently 
trying that communication  with this more difficult and even uncomfortably 
awkward new perspective in mind and heart, which ie forms the core of the 
message of "matriarchal studies", we will continue to narrow our communication 
to that which most constricts the resolution of these very natural and 
consistently re-occuring conflicts in any attempt at any viable, sustainable 
and even ultimately enjoyable, true

Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 44, Issue 43

[Orsan]

In my humble opinion, as Kevin recalled the territory of the commons and p2p 
has been [as Rifkin reminds since the 90s] a highly contested class-war 
terrain, it becomes more and more visible now with advancments in the 
theorization and practices of commoning, as well as the  politics of it. so all 
these are taking place under increasing pressure, inflitration and critical 
scrutiny from people as we observe. 
I just looked into, for instance the 1Net list, to see Willi's list activity 
there and saw that he writes pretty decent there. So I think, there are places 
he behaves consciously like a troll, since may be has serious doubts, which he 
might be gahtered from he net, conspiracyies, or from ral critics. Then he 
mihgt not be able to formulate these worries or doubts in a sense making 
arguments. 
Anyway thie we may never be knowing, since his interventions triggers mistrust, 
emotional flows and tension. Which is not useful to him, to others and it only 
serves for confusion. Anyway when it sunds like there is technical merit in the 
things he says adn tried to do, wel in the things he say politically and 
personally destructive, for himself and his probably point making stand point, 
and appears injustified and injust against his targets. it is a vioance against 
those silent watchers on the list. 
o.




> On 21 aug. 2014, at 10:49, Anna  wrote:
> 
> I do not find Willi's 'desperation' as inadmissible as others seem to find 
> it. It raises a question which is seriously being addressed in other circles 
> about how to make a living while making one's work available to as many as 
> possible. We can focus on the principles he raises without getting offended 
> by the personal criticism. They are important questions. By excluding him we 
> only weaken the diversity expressed on this list, diversity which actually 
> enriches rather than threatens our aspirations. Individuals can exclude his 
> contributions if they wish, without restricting the traffic of the whole.
> 
> Anna
> 
>> On 21 Aug 2014, at 07:25, Denis Postle  wrote:
>> 
>> I don't doubt Willi has to go. 
>> 
>> If you are reading this Willi, your messages seem to be written from a place 
>> of distressed desperation and I suspect that with the Bollier book message 
>> you may, intentionally or not, be actually seeking rejection. Some of us can 
>> get into a psy framework where such rejection is necessary to sustain our 
>> view of the world or ourselves and eventually we may succeed in getting our 
>> wish.
>> 
>> That said, I wonder if there is anything we need to attend to re P2P 
>> Foundation governance and its (our)  public presence? Don't Willi's 
>> provocations amount to the third such attack this year on, or resistance to, 
>> the P2P Foundation's accumulation of power? At a minimum, the power to 
>> define what matters in economic and social futures? 
>> 
>> I don't know the answer to this but having experienced a few attacks myself, 
>> I have come to see all dissent, including that coming from distress, as 
>> carrying a story that can have value for the target. What is this opposition 
>> trying to tell us?
>> 
>> I find the Foundation hugely valuable but I still find its, (our?) 
>> governance less than transparent. The present debacle has been useful for me 
>> in opening this out a bit and also in providing an example for the parallel  
>> discussion under 'matriarchy' which provides a very relevant context for 
>> these questions.
>> 
>> Thanks Michel for the facebook posting of some of my remarks there.
>> 
>> Goodbye Willi. Take care.
>> 
>> Denis
>> 
>>> On 20/08/2014 18:09, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>> I used to maintain a strong rule of no personal attacks on the list, but I 
>>> must say I have gotten tired to be the only one reacting,
>>> 
>>> Willi, who is notorious for these kinds of attacks and false accusations, 
>>> is clearly making a gratuitous accusation against our friend David Bollier, 
>>> whom I know as a lifelong activist for the commons, at great personal 
>>> sacrifice, and the contrary of someone who uses the commons for private 
>>> personal gain.
>>> 
>>> does everyone find that normal ? do we have to the time to spend answering 
>>> such provocations ?
>>> 
>>> personally, it is here that I would give a warning to Willi, and say, this 
>>> is not the place for such unsupported attacks, and please abstain or you 
>>> will have to leave this forum.
>>> 
>>> But for Willi, this is just been systematic practice, so the warnings have 
>>> been repeated endlessly in various forums, and it has had no effect,
>>> 
>>> So I'm requesting the removal of Willi from this list, as he has been 
>>> removed recently from the networked labour list, exactly for the same 
>>> reason,
>>> 
>>> Kevin, as list manager, I believe this is your job?
>>> 
>>> personal defamation is not an acceptable practice on this list,
>>> 
>>> I am not going to get into a debate on this, but if any people would find 
>>> it such 

[P2P-F] NYC's solidarity economy

[Michel Bauwens]

http://p2pfoundation.net/Possibilities_for_Collaboration_in_New_York_City%27s_Solidarity_Economy

dear Amanda,

in the context of our last skype, I suggest you read this report,

just in case it works for you, it didn't for me, if you could copy/paste
the description/introduction into our wiki, it would be great,

Dear Kevin, could you scribd this to publish on our blog ?

Michel

-- 
Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Updates:
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
___
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
http://www.p2pfoundation.net
https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 44, Issue 43

[Anna]

I do not find Willi's 'desperation' as inadmissible as others seem to find it. 
It raises a question which is seriously being addressed in other circles about 
how to make a living while making one's work available to as many as possible. 
We can focus on the principles he raises without getting offended by the 
personal criticism. They are important questions. By excluding him we only 
weaken the diversity expressed on this list, diversity which actually enriches 
rather than threatens our aspirations. Individuals can exclude his 
contributions if they wish, without restricting the traffic of the whole.

Anna

> On 21 Aug 2014, at 07:25, Denis Postle  wrote:
> 
> I don't doubt Willi has to go. 
> 
> If you are reading this Willi, your messages seem to be written from a place 
> of distressed desperation and I suspect that with the Bollier book message 
> you may, intentionally or not, be actually seeking rejection. Some of us can 
> get into a psy framework where such rejection is necessary to sustain our 
> view of the world or ourselves and eventually we may succeed in getting our 
> wish.
> 
> That said, I wonder if there is anything we need to attend to re P2P 
> Foundation governance and its (our)  public presence? Don't Willi's 
> provocations amount to the third such attack this year on, or resistance to, 
> the P2P Foundation's accumulation of power? At a minimum, the power to define 
> what matters in economic and social futures? 
> 
> I don't know the answer to this but having experienced a few attacks myself, 
> I have come to see all dissent, including that coming from distress, as 
> carrying a story that can have value for the target. What is this opposition 
> trying to tell us?
> 
> I find the Foundation hugely valuable but I still find its, (our?) governance 
> less than transparent. The present debacle has been useful for me in opening 
> this out a bit and also in providing an example for the parallel  discussion 
> under 'matriarchy' which provides a very relevant context for these questions.
> 
> Thanks Michel for the facebook posting of some of my remarks there.
> 
> Goodbye Willi. Take care.
> 
> Denis
> 
>> On 20/08/2014 18:09, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>> I used to maintain a strong rule of no personal attacks on the list, but I 
>> must say I have gotten tired to be the only one reacting,
>> 
>> Willi, who is notorious for these kinds of attacks and false accusations, is 
>> clearly making a gratuitous accusation against our friend David Bollier, 
>> whom I know as a lifelong activist for the commons, at great personal 
>> sacrifice, and the contrary of someone who uses the commons for private 
>> personal gain.
>> 
>> does everyone find that normal ? do we have to the time to spend answering 
>> such provocations ?
>> 
>> personally, it is here that I would give a warning to Willi, and say, this 
>> is not the place for such unsupported attacks, and please abstain or you 
>> will have to leave this forum.
>> 
>> But for Willi, this is just been systematic practice, so the warnings have 
>> been repeated endlessly in various forums, and it has had no effect,
>> 
>> So I'm requesting the removal of Willi from this list, as he has been 
>> removed recently from the networked labour list, exactly for the same reason,
>> 
>> Kevin, as list manager, I believe this is your job?
>> 
>> personal defamation is not an acceptable practice on this list,
>> 
>> I am not going to get into a debate on this, but if any people would find it 
>> such practices normal, I would propose to disband this list and start a new 
>> one where this rule is made clear from the very beginning, avoiding endless 
>> discussions on it,
>> 
>> Michel Bauwens
>> 
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: 
>> Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:49 PM
>> Subject: P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 44, Issue 43
>> To: p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
>> 
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 09:49:22 -0500
>> From: willi uebelherr 
>> Subject: [P2P-F] Fwd: Book of the Day: Think Like a Commoner
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Dear friends,
>> 
>> i love the contributions of hartsellml. You think, David Bollier is
>> working for the commons?
>> 
>> No. You see, he want to sell his books only. Try to find a free access
>> to his writing. He use the commons resource, our discussion, our
>> visions, our doing, our history to make a private buisness with his
>> description.
>> 
>> many greetings, willi
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
>> Betreff: Book of the Day: Think Like a Commoner
>> Datum:   Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:35:36 PDT
>> Von: hartsellml
>> 
>> Book of the Day: Think Like a Commoner
>> 
>> ** Book: Think Like a Commoner
>> . A Short
>> Introduction to the Life of the Commons by David Bollier. New Society, 2014*
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>> ht