Re: [PD] GUI overload
Seems like there is multiple issues going on here. I've been working with
Porres' Brane-e patch, where the array updates while recording in 0.42 but not
in 0.43. It seems that in 0.43, scalar_vis only gets calls once when the
recording starts, then again only after the recording has finished.
But now, in a bizarre twist, it has fixed itself in every Pd installed on my
system. Before this problem used to happen every time with 0.43 vanilla and
extended. Now it works everywhere, even on the binary packages, which I
definitely didn't change.
When I was able to reproduce the Brane-e problem, changing sys_pollgui()
didn't affect it either way.
.hc
On 12/17/2012 03:12 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
> OK... except that I don't know why this works yet... by which i mean, I
> don't think it's possible that sys_domicrosleep(0 is returning 1s on every
> tick unless teh GUI itself is sending hundreds of messages per second down
> to Pd.
>
> Reducing the average volume of trafic won't solve the underlying problem, it
> will just make it harder to recreate it :)
>
> M
>
> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 08:00:31PM -0500, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>>
>> I've seen similar things, like with the patches that Porres submitted. It
>> looks like what's happening is that when there are too many updates being
>> sent, a lot of them get dropped. Its pretty easy to get 250k per second of
>> Tcl code being sent to the GUI, so we're asking a lot of the Tcl parser and
>> compiler. The solution is to reduce the amount of Tcl code that gets sent
>> and
>> also use Tcl procs to handle bigger chunks of stuff so that we can take
>> advantage of Tcl caching parsed and compiled procs.
>>
>> .hc
>>
>> On 12/16/2012 01:47 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
>>> This is just a guess... in s_inter.c, try replacing:
>>>
>>> int sys_pollgui(void)
>>> {
>>> return (sys_domicrosleep(0, 1) || sys_poll_togui());
>>> }
>>>
>>> with:
>>>
>>> int sys_pollgui(void)
>>> {
>>> return (sys_domicrosleep(0, 1) + sys_poll_togui());
>>> }
>>>
>>> It's possible that sys_domicrosleep(0 - which polls for input from GUI and
>>> other FDs - isn't ever returning "idle" (zero) so that sys_poll_togui()
>>> never
>>> gets called.
>>>
>>> I've also seen a patch's GUI stop updating, but rather than bewail the fact
>>> that my GUI was dead, my immediate reactions was to be astonished that the
>>> sound was still working :)
>>>
>>> Miller
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 01:47:43PM +, Ed Kelly wrote:
Hi List,
I'm not going to say whether this is a "recurrent" problem as it's hard to
say whether the rewrite of the GUI has affected it...
I'm using a lot of abstractions with larger GOP or non-GOP GUIs, and I
find the following problem occurs. There comes a point where the GUI
objects stop responding in a patch when it is reloaded. I am wondering if
there is a specific limit to GUI objects that could be changed. I think Pd
is making some kind of decision that "there's too much of this stuff - I'm
gonna prioritize the audio and not worry about it" and I'd like to know
how or if it is possible to control this process from within Pd, or by
setting flags on the command line.
I'm also making less GUI intensive versions for performance time, since
the really big GUI patches are often pattern-sequencers which I will not
want to program when I am performing. Example patch enclosed to give you
an idea. The really GUI-intensive objects are the trackers, especially
quadtracker (which I think has pushed the GUI of Pd patches about as far
as I can go now).
System: quad core i5 PC running Ubuntu (10.04 Lucid), Pd-0.43-4, lots of
externals compiled and loaded.
Warm wishes,
Ed
Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics!
http://sharktracks.co.uk/
>>>
>>>
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Re: [PD] GUI overload
OK... except that I don't know why this works yet... by which i mean, I
don't think it's possible that sys_domicrosleep(0 is returning 1s on every
tick unless teh GUI itself is sending hundreds of messages per second down
to Pd.
Reducing the average volume of trafic won't solve the underlying problem, it
will just make it harder to recreate it :)
M
On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 08:00:31PM -0500, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>
> I've seen similar things, like with the patches that Porres submitted. It
> looks like what's happening is that when there are too many updates being
> sent, a lot of them get dropped. Its pretty easy to get 250k per second of
> Tcl code being sent to the GUI, so we're asking a lot of the Tcl parser and
> compiler. The solution is to reduce the amount of Tcl code that gets sent and
> also use Tcl procs to handle bigger chunks of stuff so that we can take
> advantage of Tcl caching parsed and compiled procs.
>
> .hc
>
> On 12/16/2012 01:47 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > This is just a guess... in s_inter.c, try replacing:
> >
> > int sys_pollgui(void)
> > {
> > return (sys_domicrosleep(0, 1) || sys_poll_togui());
> > }
> >
> > with:
> >
> > int sys_pollgui(void)
> > {
> > return (sys_domicrosleep(0, 1) + sys_poll_togui());
> > }
> >
> > It's possible that sys_domicrosleep(0 - which polls for input from GUI and
> > other FDs - isn't ever returning "idle" (zero) so that sys_poll_togui()
> > never
> > gets called.
> >
> > I've also seen a patch's GUI stop updating, but rather than bewail the fact
> > that my GUI was dead, my immediate reactions was to be astonished that the
> > sound was still working :)
> >
> > Miller
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 01:47:43PM +, Ed Kelly wrote:
> >> Hi List,
> >>
> >> I'm not going to say whether this is a "recurrent" problem as it's hard to
> >> say whether the rewrite of the GUI has affected it...
> >>
> >> I'm using a lot of abstractions with larger GOP or non-GOP GUIs, and I
> >> find the following problem occurs. There comes a point where the GUI
> >> objects stop responding in a patch when it is reloaded. I am wondering if
> >> there is a specific limit to GUI objects that could be changed. I think Pd
> >> is making some kind of decision that "there's too much of this stuff - I'm
> >> gonna prioritize the audio and not worry about it" and I'd like to know
> >> how or if it is possible to control this process from within Pd, or by
> >> setting flags on the command line.
> >>
> >> I'm also making less GUI intensive versions for performance time, since
> >> the really big GUI patches are often pattern-sequencers which I will not
> >> want to program when I am performing. Example patch enclosed to give you
> >> an idea. The really GUI-intensive objects are the trackers, especially
> >> quadtracker (which I think has pushed the GUI of Pd patches about as far
> >> as I can go now).
> >>
> >> System: quad core i5 PC running Ubuntu (10.04 Lucid), Pd-0.43-4, lots of
> >> externals compiled and loaded.
> >>
> >> Warm wishes,
> >> Ed
> >>
> >> Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics!
> >> http://sharktracks.co.uk/
> >
> >
> >> ___
> >> Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
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> >
> >
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Re: [PD] Raspberry Pi versus BeagleBoard ?
I could be wrong, but I believe the Beagleboard is ARMv7 and the Pi is ARM v6 - so BB could easily have twice the floating-point erformance of Pi. I'm not sure why and whether there would be any difference in Jack for the two. I believe (but am not sure at all) that BB doesn't have the same USB problems the Pi has. All in all it's still a very attractive possibliity, perticularly since the Stanford people have tested and exercised it thoroughly. cheers Miller On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 04:38:40PM +0100, Pierre Massat wrote: > Dear List, > > I came accross this "Stompbox design workshop" ( > https://ccrma.stanford.edu/wiki/Stompbox_2011). They use Pd on a > beagleboard to make stompboxes. > They talk about the older version of the beagleboard with a CPU running at > around 700 MHz. This is the same speed as the RPi's. > > I'm wondering what kind of latency they achieved on the beagleboard. > Leaving aside the problem of the lack of audio in, don't you think we > should be able to get the same performance on a raspberry pi ? > Also, I wonder why JACK runs on the beagleboard and not on the RPi. > > Cheers, > > Pierre. > ___ > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] is there a kalman filter for pd? (if not I could probably provide one, if I make it :) )
Got it working, but just realized that some of you need a 1D kalman, and I was working on a 2D kalman. A cool version could accept params [kalman ] Nothing works within pd yet, but lets see if I have time for that. I will also play around with some 1D implementations. best, p On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 2:06 PM, katja wrote: > Thanks for the suggestion, Cyrille. I've been playing around with > median filters in a different context (spectral processing), but > completely forgot about them. > > With the variometer, the problem is to isolate very low frequencies > (the pressure gradient you want to detect) from DC (constant > atmospheric pressure at certain height) and sensor noise frequencies. > And you want to see results with accuracy and little delay. In fact it > needs a very sharp minimum-phase filter. Maybe a median filter can > 'preprocess' the signal in some way. Anyway it gives a new > perspective. > > Katja > > > > On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Cyrille Henry wrote: >> for sensors data, depending of the noise, it can be useful to begin with a >> median filter. >> a median on the 7 last sample add 3 sample delay, but often remove lot's of >> noise. >> >> you can find them in mapping or puremapping libs. >> cheers >> cyrille >> >> >> Le 14/12/2012 11:38, katja a écrit : >> >>> Patrick, the barometer sensor samplerate is ~50 Hz and I did the >>> butterworth filter with regular Pd objects, not as external (see >>> attached). >>> >>> In the Pd patch I modeled sensor noise (resolution 3 Pascal according >>> to datasheet) and pressure gradient, simulating vertical speed through >>> the air. The aim is to get 0.1 m/s accuracy in vertical speed reading. >>> Theoretically, this would be almost possible with the butterworth. But >>> our real sensor has much more noise than 3 Pascal resolution. >>> Therefore I'm still interested in better filters. >>> >>> Katja >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:29 PM, patrick wrote: hi Katja, did you ported this filter: https://github.com/lebipbip/le-BipBip/blob/master/filter.c to an pd external? if yes could you share it? not sure if it would help my situation (noisy accelerometer 1 axis), but i would like to give it a shot. thx ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > ___ > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Lopes (HCI Researcher / MSc) contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/pedro.lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ | http://twitter.com/plopesresearch ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [nbuntil]: an non-blocking [until] replacement
- Original Message - > From: Roman Haefeli > To: pd-list@iem.at > Cc: > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:07 AM > Subject: Re: [PD] [nbuntil]: an non-blocking [until] replacement > > On Sun, 2012-12-16 at 23:17 -0800, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: >> >> >> >> - Original Message - >> > From: Simon Wise >> > To: pd-list@iem.at >> > Cc: >> > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:58 PM >> > Subject: Re: [PD] [nbuntil]: an non-blocking [until] replacement >> > >> > On 17/12/12 08:06, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: >> >> Why not just trigger each iteration with [bang~]? >> > >> > because with [bang~] you would get a single iteration per block, > rather than as >> > many iterations as you have time for ... which seems to be the > intention of >> > [nbuntil], and very useful where you might want to do a loop which may > be too >> > long for one cycle but you can wait and use the results when they are > ready, >> > after a few cycles perhaps. >> >> Ah I see. So it assumes iterations won't take a majority of a dsp > tick. > > No. Assume each iteration usually takes 5 ms under no load. If the CPU > core the Pd thread is currently running on is under 50% load, one > iteration of the same task would use 10 ms. > (This purely hypothetical, I haven't thoroughly tested those cases yet). What I mean is that if there's a dsp tick every 9ms and each iteration takes 5ms then you're still going to get dropouts because you've got time to start two iterations but not enough time to finish them. I may be misunderstanding scheduling, though. > > Roman > > > > > ___ > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] PD & AI
Thanks again Marco! Didn't know about the ftm port. And of course there is demand for it! ftm is pretty useful, and it can take you to very different and creative approaches for data. It's one of the things that keep me stuck with Max/MSP. I do like the language, but it's too expensive and that doesn't help brazilian college students. Best, Leandro On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: > there was a porting going on, but it then stopped for some reasons which I > personally don't know, but I think have been on the list at some point. > > Me and other people, like Joao Pais, are interested in making the porting > happen, and as we can see, there's demand for it. > > > > -- > Marco Donnarumma > New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. > Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. > Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London > ~ > Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com > Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com > Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net > > > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Leandro da Mota Damasceno < > lem...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'll try it then. I wonder there isn't a more ambitious approach for a >> broader AI package for PD. Honestly, one of the ugliest things I've done to >> work with machine learning was running an app built in Max/MSP and >> communicating with PD via OSC. Ah, the good old days... :) >> >> is there anything like FTM for PD? >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: >> >>> Probably :) >>> >>> ANN is based on Neural Networks. You don't have HMM. >>> But I find it quite flexible. >>> That said, I think it is a very good library to get started with AI, but >>> if you want to get some heavy work done, other tools might be better. >>> >>> hope that helps, >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Marco Donnarumma >>> New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. >>> Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. >>> Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London >>> ~ >>> Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com >>> Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com >>> Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Leandro da Mota Damasceno < >>> lem...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Thanks, Marco. I have been using OSC communications with other software, but I'm far from satisfied. I'll try ANN, thought. I am actually interested in working with Hidden Markov Models (and machine learning in general) and some filters for computer vision. Can I work with those using ANN? Best, Leandro On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: > Hey, > > I've been using the ANN library. > I'm not sure it's still updated nor mantained these days, but it does > work well for my purpose. > > http://puredata.info/search?SearchableText=ann > > That is, I've been using it to make my instrument (the Xth Sense [1]) > detect a performer's muscle states throughout a piece by using 1 sensor > only; then, labelling different states, such as still, motion, fast > motion, > slow motion. It's a basic implementation but useful to create a sensing > timeline that changes with the performer behaviours, rather than with > fixed > time cues. > > Surely, there is much more to AI which cannot be presently done in Pd, > at the best of my knowledge, I might be wrong though. > Ben (Bogart) is our guy in this area. > > What are you using Ben? > > [1] http://res.marcodonnarumma.com/projects/xth-sense/ > > > > Hi all >> >> I have been wondering... Is there any AI implementation for PD? What >> have you been using for it? >> >> Best >> >> Leandro > > -- > Marco Donnarumma > New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. > Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. > Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London > ~ > Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com > Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com > Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net > > >>> >> > ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] PD & AI
there was a porting going on, but it then stopped for some reasons which I personally don't know, but I think have been on the list at some point. Me and other people, like Joao Pais, are interested in making the porting happen, and as we can see, there's demand for it. -- Marco Donnarumma New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Leandro da Mota Damasceno < lem...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'll try it then. I wonder there isn't a more ambitious approach for a > broader AI package for PD. Honestly, one of the ugliest things I've done to > work with machine learning was running an app built in Max/MSP and > communicating with PD via OSC. Ah, the good old days... :) > > is there anything like FTM for PD? > > > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: > >> Probably :) >> >> ANN is based on Neural Networks. You don't have HMM. >> But I find it quite flexible. >> That said, I think it is a very good library to get started with AI, but >> if you want to get some heavy work done, other tools might be better. >> >> hope that helps, >> >> >> -- >> Marco Donnarumma >> New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. >> Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. >> Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London >> ~ >> Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com >> Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com >> Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Leandro da Mota Damasceno < >> lem...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Marco. I have been using OSC communications with other software, >>> but I'm far from satisfied. I'll try ANN, thought. >>> >>> I am actually interested in working with Hidden Markov Models (and >>> machine learning in general) and some filters for computer vision. Can I >>> work with those using ANN? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Leandro >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Marco Donnarumma >>> wrote: >>> Hey, I've been using the ANN library. I'm not sure it's still updated nor mantained these days, but it does work well for my purpose. http://puredata.info/search?SearchableText=ann That is, I've been using it to make my instrument (the Xth Sense [1]) detect a performer's muscle states throughout a piece by using 1 sensor only; then, labelling different states, such as still, motion, fast motion, slow motion. It's a basic implementation but useful to create a sensing timeline that changes with the performer behaviours, rather than with fixed time cues. Surely, there is much more to AI which cannot be presently done in Pd, at the best of my knowledge, I might be wrong though. Ben (Bogart) is our guy in this area. What are you using Ben? [1] http://res.marcodonnarumma.com/projects/xth-sense/ Hi all > > I have been wondering... Is there any AI implementation for PD? What > have you been using for it? > > Best > > Leandro -- Marco Donnarumma New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net >>> >> > ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] PD & AI
Regarding FTM : http://iem.kug.ac.at/fileadmin/media/iem/altdaten/projekte/publications/paper/ftm/ftm.pdfProbably the authors can speak more about it :) On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Leandro da Mota Damasceno wrote: > I'll try it then. I wonder there isn't a more ambitious approach for a > broader AI package for PD. Honestly, one of the ugliest things I've done to > work with machine learning was running an app built in Max/MSP and > communicating with PD via OSC. Ah, the good old days... :) > > is there anything like FTM for PD? > > > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: > >> Probably :) >> >> ANN is based on Neural Networks. You don't have HMM. >> But I find it quite flexible. >> That said, I think it is a very good library to get started with AI, but >> if you want to get some heavy work done, other tools might be better. >> >> hope that helps, >> >> >> -- >> Marco Donnarumma >> New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. >> Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. >> Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London >> ~ >> Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com >> Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com >> Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Leandro da Mota Damasceno < >> lem...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Marco. I have been using OSC communications with other software, >>> but I'm far from satisfied. I'll try ANN, thought. >>> >>> I am actually interested in working with Hidden Markov Models (and >>> machine learning in general) and some filters for computer vision. Can I >>> work with those using ANN? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Leandro >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Marco Donnarumma >>> wrote: >>> Hey, I've been using the ANN library. I'm not sure it's still updated nor mantained these days, but it does work well for my purpose. http://puredata.info/search?SearchableText=ann That is, I've been using it to make my instrument (the Xth Sense [1]) detect a performer's muscle states throughout a piece by using 1 sensor only; then, labelling different states, such as still, motion, fast motion, slow motion. It's a basic implementation but useful to create a sensing timeline that changes with the performer behaviours, rather than with fixed time cues. Surely, there is much more to AI which cannot be presently done in Pd, at the best of my knowledge, I might be wrong though. Ben (Bogart) is our guy in this area. What are you using Ben? [1] http://res.marcodonnarumma.com/projects/xth-sense/ Hi all > > I have been wondering... Is there any AI implementation for PD? What > have you been using for it? > > Best > > Leandro -- Marco Donnarumma New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net >>> >> > > ___ > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > -- Pedro Lopes (HCI Researcher / MSc) contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/pedro.lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ | http://twitter.com/plopesresearch ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] PD & AI
Thanks Pedro :) I´m really not happy because I always end up running to many things that could be more easily integrated. When it comes do debugging, I really hate having to check out so many differente software. As I said before, it feels a little bit ridiculous to run Max/MSP and PD at the same time. I know, most things I could just write in Max/MSP, but then I wouldn't have flexibility i have in PD. That was a big issue during my master thesis. I´ll check into those projects. Btw, I like OpenCV :) Best, Leandro On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Pedro Lopes wrote: > They are all different things. ANN, HMM, etc... this is machine learning, > reasoning algorithms, and so forth. > > As far as I know Pd has no basic set of machine learning techs, such as > openCV has. > > I'm not a huge fan of replicating tools, so I would take existing external > tools and just interface with them, but since you point out that you are > not happy with them, my suggestion is useless. Anyway two pointers: > - http://sourceforge.net/projects/cvhmm/ (HMM) > - http://opencv.willowgarage.com/documentation/cpp/neural_networks.html(NN) > > Best, > pedro > p.s.: this message is not opencv sponsored. > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Leandro da Mota Damasceno < > lem...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks, Marco. I have been using OSC communications with other software, >> but I'm far from satisfied. I'll try ANN, thought. >> >> I am actually interested in working with Hidden Markov Models (and >> machine learning in general) and some filters for computer vision. Can I >> work with those using ANN? >> >> Best, >> >> Leandro >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: >> >>> Hey, >>> >>> I've been using the ANN library. >>> I'm not sure it's still updated nor mantained these days, but it does >>> work well for my purpose. >>> >>> http://puredata.info/search?SearchableText=ann >>> >>> That is, I've been using it to make my instrument (the Xth Sense [1]) >>> detect a performer's muscle states throughout a piece by using 1 sensor >>> only; then, labelling different states, such as still, motion, fast motion, >>> slow motion. It's a basic implementation but useful to create a sensing >>> timeline that changes with the performer behaviours, rather than with fixed >>> time cues. >>> >>> Surely, there is much more to AI which cannot be presently done in Pd, >>> at the best of my knowledge, I might be wrong though. >>> Ben (Bogart) is our guy in this area. >>> >>> What are you using Ben? >>> >>> [1] http://res.marcodonnarumma.com/projects/xth-sense/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all I have been wondering... Is there any AI implementation for PD? What have you been using for it? Best Leandro >>> >>> -- >>> Marco Donnarumma >>> New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. >>> Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. >>> Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London >>> ~ >>> Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com >>> Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com >>> Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net >>> >>> >> >> ___ >> Pd-list@iem.at mailing list >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> >> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list >> >> > > > -- > Pedro Lopes (HCI Researcher / MSc) > contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt > website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/pedro.lopes / > http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ | > http://twitter.com/plopesresearch > ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] PD & AI
I'll try it then. I wonder there isn't a more ambitious approach for a broader AI package for PD. Honestly, one of the ugliest things I've done to work with machine learning was running an app built in Max/MSP and communicating with PD via OSC. Ah, the good old days... :) is there anything like FTM for PD? On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: > Probably :) > > ANN is based on Neural Networks. You don't have HMM. > But I find it quite flexible. > That said, I think it is a very good library to get started with AI, but > if you want to get some heavy work done, other tools might be better. > > hope that helps, > > > -- > Marco Donnarumma > New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. > Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. > Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London > ~ > Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com > Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com > Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net > > > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Leandro da Mota Damasceno < > lem...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks, Marco. I have been using OSC communications with other software, >> but I'm far from satisfied. I'll try ANN, thought. >> >> I am actually interested in working with Hidden Markov Models (and >> machine learning in general) and some filters for computer vision. Can I >> work with those using ANN? >> >> Best, >> >> Leandro >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: >> >>> Hey, >>> >>> I've been using the ANN library. >>> I'm not sure it's still updated nor mantained these days, but it does >>> work well for my purpose. >>> >>> http://puredata.info/search?SearchableText=ann >>> >>> That is, I've been using it to make my instrument (the Xth Sense [1]) >>> detect a performer's muscle states throughout a piece by using 1 sensor >>> only; then, labelling different states, such as still, motion, fast motion, >>> slow motion. It's a basic implementation but useful to create a sensing >>> timeline that changes with the performer behaviours, rather than with fixed >>> time cues. >>> >>> Surely, there is much more to AI which cannot be presently done in Pd, >>> at the best of my knowledge, I might be wrong though. >>> Ben (Bogart) is our guy in this area. >>> >>> What are you using Ben? >>> >>> [1] http://res.marcodonnarumma.com/projects/xth-sense/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all I have been wondering... Is there any AI implementation for PD? What have you been using for it? Best Leandro >>> >>> -- >>> Marco Donnarumma >>> New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. >>> Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. >>> Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London >>> ~ >>> Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com >>> Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com >>> Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net >>> >>> >> > ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] PD & AI
They are all different things. ANN, HMM, etc... this is machine learning, reasoning algorithms, and so forth. As far as I know Pd has no basic set of machine learning techs, such as openCV has. I'm not a huge fan of replicating tools, so I would take existing external tools and just interface with them, but since you point out that you are not happy with them, my suggestion is useless. Anyway two pointers: - http://sourceforge.net/projects/cvhmm/ (HMM) - http://opencv.willowgarage.com/documentation/cpp/neural_networks.html (NN) Best, pedro p.s.: this message is not opencv sponsored. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Leandro da Mota Damasceno < lem...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks, Marco. I have been using OSC communications with other software, > but I'm far from satisfied. I'll try ANN, thought. > > I am actually interested in working with Hidden Markov Models (and machine > learning in general) and some filters for computer vision. Can I work with > those using ANN? > > Best, > > Leandro > > > On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: > >> Hey, >> >> I've been using the ANN library. >> I'm not sure it's still updated nor mantained these days, but it does >> work well for my purpose. >> >> http://puredata.info/search?SearchableText=ann >> >> That is, I've been using it to make my instrument (the Xth Sense [1]) >> detect a performer's muscle states throughout a piece by using 1 sensor >> only; then, labelling different states, such as still, motion, fast motion, >> slow motion. It's a basic implementation but useful to create a sensing >> timeline that changes with the performer behaviours, rather than with fixed >> time cues. >> >> Surely, there is much more to AI which cannot be presently done in Pd, at >> the best of my knowledge, I might be wrong though. >> Ben (Bogart) is our guy in this area. >> >> What are you using Ben? >> >> [1] http://res.marcodonnarumma.com/projects/xth-sense/ >> >> >> >> Hi all >>> >>> I have been wondering... Is there any AI implementation for PD? What >>> have you been using for it? >>> >>> Best >>> >>> Leandro >> >> -- >> Marco Donnarumma >> New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. >> Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. >> Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London >> ~ >> Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com >> Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com >> Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net >> >> > > ___ > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > -- Pedro Lopes (HCI Researcher / MSc) contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/pedro.lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ | http://twitter.com/plopesresearch ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [nbuntil]: an non-blocking [until] replacement
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:18 PM, katja wrote: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote: > ... >> On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 11:56 +0100, katja wrote: >>> Cool, with [nbuntil] the workload is even spread over the cores! >> >> I don't think that [nbuntil] will help in making Pd use more than one >> core. Since [nbuntil] is just an abstraction, everything run "below" it >> is still part of the pd process/thread. For fully exploiting many cores, >> real threading is needed, I suppose. > > You're right, your abstraction exploits threading which is already > done. When running [nbuntil-help] on OSX, I notice CPU increase for > both cores in Activity Monitor. But it is also the case with regular > [until] in the patch. Wait this is not a matter of threading of course, the process is just switching between cores. Katja ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] PD & AI
Probably :) ANN is based on Neural Networks. You don't have HMM. But I find it quite flexible. That said, I think it is a very good library to get started with AI, but if you want to get some heavy work done, other tools might be better. hope that helps, -- Marco Donnarumma New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Leandro da Mota Damasceno wrote: > Thanks, Marco. I have been using OSC communications with other software, > but I'm far from satisfied. I'll try ANN, thought. > > I am actually interested in working with Hidden Markov Models (and machine > learning in general) and some filters for computer vision. Can I work with > those using ANN? > > Best, > > Leandro > > > On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: > >> Hey, >> >> I've been using the ANN library. >> I'm not sure it's still updated nor mantained these days, but it does >> work well for my purpose. >> >> http://puredata.info/search?SearchableText=ann >> >> That is, I've been using it to make my instrument (the Xth Sense [1]) >> detect a performer's muscle states throughout a piece by using 1 sensor >> only; then, labelling different states, such as still, motion, fast motion, >> slow motion. It's a basic implementation but useful to create a sensing >> timeline that changes with the performer behaviours, rather than with fixed >> time cues. >> >> Surely, there is much more to AI which cannot be presently done in Pd, at >> the best of my knowledge, I might be wrong though. >> Ben (Bogart) is our guy in this area. >> >> What are you using Ben? >> >> [1] http://res.marcodonnarumma.com/projects/xth-sense/ >> >> >> >> Hi all >>> >>> I have been wondering... Is there any AI implementation for PD? What >>> have you been using for it? >>> >>> Best >>> >>> Leandro >> >> -- >> Marco Donnarumma >> New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. >> Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. >> Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London >> ~ >> Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com >> Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com >> Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net >> >> > ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Raspberry Pi versus BeagleBoard ?
Dear List, I came accross this "Stompbox design workshop" ( https://ccrma.stanford.edu/wiki/Stompbox_2011). They use Pd on a beagleboard to make stompboxes. They talk about the older version of the beagleboard with a CPU running at around 700 MHz. This is the same speed as the RPi's. I'm wondering what kind of latency they achieved on the beagleboard. Leaving aside the problem of the lack of audio in, don't you think we should be able to get the same performance on a raspberry pi ? Also, I wonder why JACK runs on the beagleboard and not on the RPi. Cheers, Pierre. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] UTF-8 failing - Ubuntu 12.04.1 64bits
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 12/17/2012 09:27 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: > On 2012-12-17 14:25, Esteban Viveros wrote: >> I'm using this deb downloaded from pd page: > >> Pd Version: 0.43.4-extended-20121216 Tcl Version: 8.5.11 > >> The deb is precise amd64 version. > > > what's the problem? what do you mean with "UTF-8 failing"? Its a known issue, it turns out its somehow caused by tclpd being loaded, but I haven't discovered more yet. Esteban, for now, you can fix it by doing: sudo rm /usr/lib/pd-extended/startup/tclpd* .hc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJQzzmkAAoJEJ8P5Yc3S76Bbx0QAK1b5MUKxPuONRTsFZBMJt0w 7PBzBRpC4JHR2JhFcyY/gzLBIA2v/EMJK2WMvxJ5HZKki4azRsXojesUIA4d/1qR UQ1T9Z83fb78cm5+9CWdAFCHWiAcxZuuh9R7wCq9EPmq2QwD97JnBP0+QAq1Mzo5 04eN7UapM1jXhVmy5x5rQdT6qPzmVcEsbntla/zc8YeZToE6A/rD8G2L6VOk4SZT wCZvkNaCQkXCaWC4lXkSMmpIW+WhV3VqKOjQOPRbGLPYVoyXf7Lom5NsP4L7z3Ag cgHcUM2eZ+ET2zXk027xA64MI9SweX9qeyGrVZFsM3kZ6qaOPo2JxUQLWFX9DY3h ZHmQ1KO4Ixo0L0vAfr/qlSjpqkuy2PK7s27lnusucCk+uUgnWL2bZv6wJkiiaNVD b4J3WTDS90tWur6ceKMEq2NY1lqb3kSws/6+CzLPdzK7+HhdZ9skNvH7NKGI+L1W bKc1zqB9qePjsxwkA3g9k3BEexWr4JUkom+cVYSn1BlbRBURvvedJolMZ9m5Ikn1 LLhD6j8v1kqqIBX5DjzN2bTUzwXGBq9GW3jn9kV3MZSathr0yr4XgJr2BmxWiFWV VtCM1Q+MzQ0jtAsc21tSulobYp5On3AcHSZe6ey0n2VPCAN2+EQEXFFpmvrdEo7S Nn9Ajikq0XLG8tztDXGi =vf94 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [nbuntil]: an non-blocking [until] replacement
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote: ... > On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 11:56 +0100, katja wrote: >> Cool, with [nbuntil] the workload is even spread over the cores! > > I don't think that [nbuntil] will help in making Pd use more than one > core. Since [nbuntil] is just an abstraction, everything run "below" it > is still part of the pd process/thread. For fully exploiting many cores, > real threading is needed, I suppose. You're right, your abstraction exploits threading which is already done. When running [nbuntil-help] on OSX, I notice CPU increase for both cores in Activity Monitor. But it is also the case with regular [until] in the patch. Following the principle in [nbuntil], it would be possible to make a general abstraction for deferring subsequent tasks with low priority, no? Let's say [defer], a variation on [pipe], but where delay is proportional to CPU load. This could then be used in any straight sequence of subpatches which do a substantial amount of operations each. Katja Katja ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] UTF-8 failing - Ubuntu 12.04.1 64bits
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-12-17 14:25, Esteban Viveros wrote: > I'm using this deb downloaded from pd page: > > Pd Version: 0.43.4-extended-20121216 Tcl Version: 8.5.11 > > The deb is precise amd64 version. > what's the problem? what do you mean with "UTF-8 failing"? fgmasdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlDPK9QACgkQkX2Xpv6ydvQGhQCg7n5vLsd4/cZu45a0hLjdYYpg ad8AoN3YxHNeJOJwJEimxQNEvP+WUiSy =YlDR -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [nbuntil]: an non-blocking [until] replacement
Hi Katja Thanks for your feedback. On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 11:56 +0100, katja wrote: > Cool, with [nbuntil] the workload is even spread over the cores! I don't think that [nbuntil] will help in making Pd use more than one core. Since [nbuntil] is just an abstraction, everything run "below" it is still part of the pd process/thread. For fully exploiting many cores, real threading is needed, I suppose. > So > now you can do calculations on long arrays without fear of CPU spikes. That is the idea. > And in turn, audio latency may be set to lower level. To some degree, probably. There is a certain range for it to work best. If each iteration is too small/fast, the penalty added by [nbuntil] is too big and it will by itself cause drop-outs. OTOH, if a single iteration takes too much time, this will also cause a drop-out (i.e. if it takes longer than the currently configured audio buffer setting). As a rule of thumb, the optimal CPU time for a single iteration to consume is probably around /2. Regarding your calculations for long arrays and depending on the complexity of your calculations, it might be better to iterate with an outer [nbuntil] loop and an inner [until] loop in order to reach a sensible iteration time for [nbuntil]. Roman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] PD & AI
Thanks, Marco. I have been using OSC communications with other software, but I'm far from satisfied. I'll try ANN, thought. I am actually interested in working with Hidden Markov Models (and machine learning in general) and some filters for computer vision. Can I work with those using ANN? Best, Leandro On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: > Hey, > > I've been using the ANN library. > I'm not sure it's still updated nor mantained these days, but it does work > well for my purpose. > > http://puredata.info/search?SearchableText=ann > > That is, I've been using it to make my instrument (the Xth Sense [1]) > detect a performer's muscle states throughout a piece by using 1 sensor > only; then, labelling different states, such as still, motion, fast motion, > slow motion. It's a basic implementation but useful to create a sensing > timeline that changes with the performer behaviours, rather than with fixed > time cues. > > Surely, there is much more to AI which cannot be presently done in Pd, at > the best of my knowledge, I might be wrong though. > Ben (Bogart) is our guy in this area. > > What are you using Ben? > > [1] http://res.marcodonnarumma.com/projects/xth-sense/ > > > > Hi all >> >> I have been wondering... Is there any AI implementation for PD? What have >> you been using for it? >> >> Best >> >> Leandro > > -- > Marco Donnarumma > New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. > Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. > Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London > ~ > Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com > Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com > Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net > > ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [nbuntil]: an non-blocking [until] replacement
Cool, with [nbuntil] the workload is even spread over the cores! So now you can do calculations on long arrays without fear of CPU spikes. And in turn, audio latency may be set to lower level. Great solution Roman, thanks for sharing. Katja On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote: > Hi all > > Audio drop-outs happen, when Pd needs more time to do something than is > available (i.e. the configured audio buffer size). The underlying > reasons are manifold, often it is because something requiring lots of > CPU power is processed in zero logical time. For such of those problems, > that can be divided into smaller tasks or those that already are of an > iterative nature, [nbuntil] may provide a solution to avoid audio > drop-outs. > > [nbuntil] works similar to the regular [until], but unlike the original, > it breaks Pd's principle of "depth first". It measures how much time > each iteration requires and delays the next iteration by this time. By > employing [nbuntil], many kinds of tasks can be performed without > causing drop-outs, that would otherwise block Pd for a certain amount of > time. > > Example applications include loading presets or dynamic creation of > parts "in the background". Yet, I use it to pre-calculate a set of > tables while audio is running. I could imagine using it to create an > emulation of a threaded [soundfiler], though a proof of concept is yet > lacking and needs to be created. Contrary to Miller's suggestion of > using a [readsf~] in an upsampled subpatch, [nbuntil]'s adaptive > approach uses the maximum available CPU power. > > I'm curios to see whether other people find it useful and even find use > cases I haven't thought of yet. Despite its rather simple design, I > can't remember having seen this approach discussed here on the list. I'd > also be interested if similar or different approaches have been used, > but not yet discussed here. > > I'm currently not in the urgent need of a vanilla pseudo-threaded > [soundfiler], but if there is enough interest, I'd be happy to dedicate > some time to it (not totally sure, that it would work, though). > > Roman > > > > ___ > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [nbuntil]: an non-blocking [until] replacement
On Sun, 2012-12-16 at 23:17 -0800, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > > > > - Original Message - > > From: Simon Wise > > To: pd-list@iem.at > > Cc: > > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:58 PM > > Subject: Re: [PD] [nbuntil]: an non-blocking [until] replacement > > > > On 17/12/12 08:06, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > >> Why not just trigger each iteration with [bang~]? > > > > because with [bang~] you would get a single iteration per block, rather > > than as > > many iterations as you have time for ... which seems to be the intention of > > [nbuntil], and very useful where you might want to do a loop which may be > > too > > long for one cycle but you can wait and use the results when they are > > ready, > > after a few cycles perhaps. > > Ah I see. So it assumes iterations won't take a majority of a dsp tick. No. Assume each iteration usually takes 5 ms under no load. If the CPU core the Pd thread is currently running on is under 50% load, one iteration of the same task would use 10 ms. (This purely hypothetical, I haven't thoroughly tested those cases yet). Roman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
