Re: [PD] check this out
Yes, it's emg+accelerometer detecting fingers position as hand gesture. Although, it's difficult to call it a gesture recognition. Besides, possible gestures seems to be limited to the recognition pattern they provide. Which overlook the real capability of gesture following, which is the possibility of defining gesture to recognise on the go. As Pedro pointed there has been a good amount of research in this area, specially in HCI, for the past 5/6 years. This is the natural outcome of those studies. They're trying to bring to the general public and out of the labs a gestural biosensing device, and this is great. Still, in my experience, emg sensing has very different calibration time, which depend on some bodily aspects unique to each person, and the environment where the user is. That is, for some, an emg sensor may calibrate in one minute, for others in 20mins. They claim to have better (and yes, patented) electrodes. Unfortunately, we'll see the device next year (claimed ship late 2013). As often these days, media run the (fast and soon forgotten) hype of a good 3d mockup and a well-edited video of applications. Let's see what happens later on when we can try the real thing! It's exciting to see a follow up in the industry to this specific artistic and research area of interest. and I'm sure there will be more of those coming out. from us too :P -- Marco Donnarumma New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. Embodied Audio-Visual Interaction Research Team. Department of Computing, Goldsmiths University of London ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 2:50 AM, pd-list-requ...@iem.at wrote: Send Pd-list mailing list submissions to pd-list@iem.at EMG in action, detecting fingers through ML: - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=6_7BzUED39A#! (Scott Saponas, UIST 09) On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Ivica Ico Bukvic i...@vt.edu wrote: EMG is potentially capable of this and with adequate filtering techniques there are papers out there that allow for fairly accurate detection of finger motions. More so, the video shows use of very distinct hand positions. In other words, it is not the gesture but hand shape that can be read accurately and interpreted. I suspect it also has a gyro/accelerometer that works in tandem with multiple EMG sensing points? ** ** ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [announce] [pd-fileutils] released, a command-line tool for managing pd files
No there's no controls at the moment (other than this ugly message box). My priority is more on the engine than the GUI. At the moment I am about to start a big refactoring when I find the time, because I would like WebPd to use Web Audio API. That's also why I am separating components, because I don't like to have a monolithic library ... I thought something like a file parser could be useful to other people as well :) But sure I'll start to send updates once in a while here. I am still working on the SVG rendering of the pd files, soon I have all the controls implemented, I'll post when that is done. I think it would be cool to have a place to post a patch, without having to take a screenshot of it. What do you think? 2013/3/1 Rich E reakina...@gmail.com Yea this is really nice, glad you got the proof of concept working! Is there a number box? Couldn't find it. Please keep us all posted.. On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.atwrote: Wow, that's impressive, it actually works! Rough, yes, but working. .hc On Mar 1, 2013, at 10:34 AM, s p wrote: Actually I've had a crappy demo of patching in the browser running for quite a while now : http://funktion.fm/webpd/demos/simple-gui/simple-gui.html It works (not so well in Firefox, but in chromium it's fine). A friend of mine is developing a generic graph editor for dataflow programming, and I've been planning to migrate to this forever now, but didn't have the time ... 2013/2/28 Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Very nice :) I'd love to see full-on Pd patching in the browser :) .hc On 02/28/2013 02:02 AM, s p wrote: Sorry for the spam ... problems with gmail and html, the url is : http://sebpiq.github.com/pd-fileutils/?gist=GISTID 2013/2/28 s p seb...@gmail.com oops, ... I meant : 2) Go to this url (replace GISTID by your gist id) : http://sebpiq.github.com/pd-fileutils/?gist= http://sebpiq.github.com/pd-fileutils/?gist=5054711 GISTID 2013/2/28 s p seb...@gmail.com For example, here's one goodie brought by `pd-fileutils` : 1) Paste a patch to gist : https://gist.github.com/ 2) Go to this url (replace gistId by your gist id) : http://sebpiq.github.com/pd-fileutils/?gist= http://sebpiq.github.com/pd-fileutils/?gist=5054711 gistId And your patch should be rendered to SVG. You can then send this link to anybody to show your patch :) Of course for now the SVG rendering is super crappy, but I am working on it, so it should be better very soon. Cheers, Sébastien ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] send .pd_linux files from maxlib?
Hi, the latest version of pd-ext for debian has the externals of maxlib compiled in the wrong format. Can anyone out there send me a zip file with the .pd_linux files from the extra/maxlib folder? I'm using debian squeeze 32b. Please send directly to my mail, not to the list. Thanks, jmmmp ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] debian: patch with some gops stalling
Hi everyone, I have a subpatch with ~20 gops showing (each with an array). When opening the subpatch, or changing desktops to the desktop where the patch is, there is a pause of ~1m, until the subpatch draws. During this time no sound can be produced, and only shortly afterwards does midi work again. This happens only in debian, not in windows 7. is there something that can be done to make this better? I'm using debian squeeze 32b, on a thinkpad x61 (2 cores, 4Gb mem) Thanks, João ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Gem:Convert 3d shape(obj) into a string of characters
Hi, i was wondering how can i convert a 3d shape (obj file) into a string of characters using Gem/pd? Is it possible to get a list with all the vertex values of a obj file using Gem? If not, which other options do exist? thanks in advance R. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] measuring entropy of a signal?
Hi, Charles, my idea in using shannons entropy is to measure self generated songs. For example if you have a patch that generate sound structures using a generative rules it would be nice to measure that sound structure and use that measurement to evolve the rules that generate that sound structure in order to create more complex structures for example. But how to measure a sound structure using shannons entropy? I was experimenting taking only short pieces of a larger sound , converting each piece into a string and evaluate the shannon entropy of each string. In this case entropy varies with time and what i am interested in are the entropy trayectories. You can plot this trayectories and compare different trayectories from different songs . More complex sound structures should have more complex trayectories , not chaotic , not periodic but more complex . The problem for me is that i need to plot or visualize the entropy trayectories (values) in order to see the complexity of a sound structure. It would be nice to find a way to automate , for example find a way of measure different trayectories algorithmically and that computer can tells automatically which one is more complex. Do you have an idea? I have a question, why do you say it would be meaning less to convert signal into symbols? Other way i was experimenting is using this with video and images, for example converting an image into a array of characters iterating over all the pixels an getting the color of each pixel , then converting those values into characters and then evaluating the shannons entropy of each image. I would like to expand this and use it also for self generated 3d structure, but im still thinking about this. cheers. R. can you please explain me why do you say it would be meaningless? That would do something, but may be meaningless--It would be just one way of converting the signal from real numbers to a discrete set of things/symbols that is easier to calculate. 2013/2/27, Charles Z Henry czhe...@gmail.com: If you took the fft squared magnitude, perfectly noisy data should have a chi-squared distribution in each bin (I think). If you assumed that model and calculated the parameters of the distribution on each block, you'd find out how much information is in each of those peaks relative to the assumed distribution and just add it up. What ever algorithm you choose probably needs to pass some common sense tests like what you mention Martin, noise has more entropy than a sine wave. Also, if you take noise and just apply a comparison 0, you get a signal with less entropy. On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Martin Peach martin.pe...@sympatico.cawrote: Why not do an FFT and measure the variance of the channels? For instance white noise has maximum entropy and all the bins of its FFT will be more or less the same, while a sine wave has low entropy and one bin will be much larger than the others. Martin On 2013-02-27 08:40, ronni montoya wrote: Hi, why is not possible? Instead of analysing the real time value of the signal , maybe i can have a memory or buffer that store the a piece of signal ( groups of samples) from time to time and then analize that group of values. Maybe it can convert that group of values into a string and then: http://www.shannonentropy.**netmark.pl/calculatehttp://www.shannonentropy.netmark.pl/calculate Other idea : ive seen using shannon entropy for calculating complexity in terms of spatial configuration. Maybe other option could be converting my signal into image for example using similarity matrix and then analyze that image to get entropy values. cheers R 2013/2/26, Charles Z Henry czhe...@gmail.com: Hi Ronni How do you mean to do it? Shannon entropy is not an independent measurement--the information in a observation is relative to the distribution of all it's possible values. If I just take one sample and it's evenly distributed between -0.98 and 1 and it's quantized in 0.02 increments (to make the math easier), then the information of any value observed is: -0.01*log(0.01) Then--if I had a signal that's N samples long, I have N times as much information. Or perhaps think of it as a rate of information. But for real numbers and continuous distributions, this doesn't work. The information in a single observation diverges. So, doing that with floating point numbers is not practical. You often see Shannon entropy describing digital signals. If the signal just switches between 0 and 1, we can generate a distribution of the data and see what the probability is empirically. The entropy of each new sample is relative to the distribution. Likewise, then if you know the maximum rate of switching, you can figure out the maximum rate of information in the signal. Just a few thoughts... Chuck On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 6:09 AM, ronni montoya ronni.mont...@gmail.com**wrote: Hi , i
Re: [PD] file format for GEM
That's a similar machine to what I was using in 2007-8. Try the ProRes 422 and 422(HQ) codecs. Those flags can be set using the Preferences-Startup options. Add -nomidi -noaudio -nrt to the startup flags line. Restart Pd. On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Stephan Elliot Perez dreamoftheshoreofanotherwo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Mr. Clepper. Thanks for you reply. I have been using a Mac with a 2 x 2,8 GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon processor. There are ProRes codecs here. , 422 (proxy) 422 (HQ), 422 (LT), and 422. Does it matter which one I use? I have no audio in the patch. How do I activate these -noaudio and -nomidi settings? Best regards, Stephan On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:25 PM, chris clepper cgclep...@gmail.comwrote: I had no problem playing 4 or more AIC 1080@30fps files in 2007 on a MacPro or Quad G5. What sort of hardware are you using? Photo-Jpeg is not multi-threaded so playing multiple clips will have much worse performance than AIC. If you have access to it, the ProRes codecs can also be very fast for HD. Adobe and Avid have similar codecs as well. It could be the lag is from the -rt setting so GEM uses all available processing. The best setup for GEM on OSX is -nrt -noaudio -nomidi (and -nogui if you can work with it). On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Stephan Elliot Perez dreamoftheshoreofanotherwo...@gmail.com wrote: So, I reduced the resolution of the files from 1920 x 1080 to 800 x 450 with the Apple Photo -Jpeg codec and now I have no lag. The loss in quality is of course noticable, but tolerable... Thanks again for you help, Stephan On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:13 AM, n...@petervenus.de wrote: Hello! what video codec are you using? in my experience, a big issue when playing back video with gem, comes from the codecs and container, resulting in extreme differences in cpu-load. i found, that mov-container work way better than avi-container, even though the same codec is used and packed in the container. try converting your videos to a motion-jpeg codec packed in a quicktime-mov. you could use mpeg-streamclip [1] for that purpose on win /mac machines or ffmpeg on linux. [1] http://www.squared5.com/ free tool for video conversion regards, peter *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 27. Februar 2013 um 23:55 Uhr *Von:* Stephan Elliot Perez dreamoftheshoreofanotherwo...@gmail.com *An:* Cyrille Henry c...@chnry.net *Cc:* pd-list@iem.at *Betreff:* Re: [PD] file format for GEM A more urgent problem: Although the CPU usage stays under 100 (peak is around 84 with three videos overlapping), there is a substantial amount of lag. If I turn off video processing, a command that should be executed after 30 seconds via the cue list is executed punctually. If I turn it on, the command is 11 seconds late. I can attach the patch if you like, but I probably will not be able to send the video clips as one attachment. Best regards, Stephan On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Stephan Elliot Perez dreamoftheshoreofanotherwo...@gmail.com wrote: What is a shader, and how do I use it? On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Cyrille Henry c...@chnry.net wrote: Le 27/02/2013 19:17, Stephan Elliot Perez a écrit : Thanks, it works now. For some reason, turning auto on and off (with pix_film) causes the video to lag temporarily, but I do not have this problem if I use line-objects to go through the frames. The cpu-usage goes above 100 if I have more than two videos playing at once, but I suppose I don't need more than two for this project... Also, what can I do if I want an additive blend instead of a normal cross-blend? i would use a shader for this. it offer great flexibility, even if it's a bit harder to begin with. but that's the way openGL wants you to do now. cheers c On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:16 PM, Cyrille Henry c...@chnry.netmailto: c...@chnry.net wrote: hello, Gem is mostly design to work on the GPU, and not on the CPU. GPU have hundreds of core, they are faster than CPU for image manipulations. pix_add come from the 20th century and should now be avoid since it use cpu not gpu ;-) in order to make a fade transition between 2 videos, you can use transparency on one video. add a [alpha] object after Gemhead, and send number between 0 and 1 in the last inlet of the colorRGB object to make the video appear / disapear. cheers c Le 26/02/2013 21:33, Stephan Elliot Perez a écrit : Hello, So, looking at the help file for [pd~], it seems to be primarily for audio. How can I use multiple cores to work purely with GEM? I am trying to have a simple transition between video clips, but if I have two instances of pix_film and then connect them to pix_add, the CPU-ussage skyrockets well above 100... is there a more efficient object for blending two video clips? Best regards, Stephan On Sun,
Re: [PD] Gem:Convert 3d shape(obj) into a string of characters
hello, a obj file already is coded as text. so you don't have to do any convertion, just open it with a text editor! cheers c Le 02/03/2013 18:06, ronni montoya a écrit : Hi, i was wondering how can i convert a 3d shape (obj file) into a string of characters using Gem/pd? Is it possible to get a list with all the vertex values of a obj file using Gem? If not, which other options do exist? thanks in advance R. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Gem:Convert 3d shape(obj) into a string of characters
oh cool , but how can i read that text in pd? cheers R. 2013/3/2, Cyrille Henry c...@chnry.net: hello, a obj file already is coded as text. so you don't have to do any convertion, just open it with a text editor! cheers c Le 02/03/2013 18:06, ronni montoya a écrit : Hi, i was wondering how can i convert a 3d shape (obj file) into a string of characters using Gem/pd? Is it possible to get a list with all the vertex values of a obj file using Gem? If not, which other options do exist? thanks in advance R. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Gem:Convert 3d shape(obj) into a string of characters
with the textfile object. cheers c Le 02/03/2013 19:42, ronni montoya a écrit : oh cool , but how can i read that text in pd? cheers R. 2013/3/2, Cyrille Henry c...@chnry.net: hello, a obj file already is coded as text. so you don't have to do any convertion, just open it with a text editor! cheers c Le 02/03/2013 18:06, ronni montoya a écrit : Hi, i was wondering how can i convert a 3d shape (obj file) into a string of characters using Gem/pd? Is it possible to get a list with all the vertex values of a obj file using Gem? If not, which other options do exist? thanks in advance R. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] measuring entropy of a signal?
On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:28 PM, ronni montoya ronni.mont...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, Charles, my idea in using shannons entropy is to measure self generated songs. For example if you have a patch that generate sound structures using a generative rules it would be nice to measure that sound structure and use that measurement to evolve the rules that generate that sound structure in order to create more complex structures for example. Cool! That's a great idea! But how to measure a sound structure using shannons entropy? I guess I'm interested because it's a really tricky problem to define. There's no clear mathematical formula to apply. I'm happy to discuss how you might do it, but I don't know if it's been done correctly already--or if there's some articles about entropy definitions for signals. The important thing is if it captures the properties of the signal you care about. If you have no math to start from--describe it verbally first. I was experimenting taking only short pieces of a larger sound , converting each piece into a string and evaluate the shannon entropy of each string. In this case entropy varies with time and what i am interested in are the entropy trayectories. You can plot this trayectories and compare different trayectories from different songs . More complex sound structures should have more complex trayectories , not chaotic , not periodic but more complex . The problem for me is that i need to plot or visualize the entropy trayectories (values) in order to see the complexity of a sound structure. It would be nice to find a way to automate , for example find a way of measure different trayectories algorithmically and that computer can tells automatically which one is more complex. Do you have an idea? Martin's suggestion about spectral distribution is good. Autocorrelation might also have some good properties--the signal has less entropy when it is more self-similar. This also starts to sound like fractal dimension, which can be calculated by a box-muller method. I have a question, why do you say it would be meaning less to convert signal into symbols? It may be meaningless if you choose a bad rule to convert them into symbols. Here's an example meaningless rule: Convert ranges of signal values into discrete values: -1 to -0.99 - -99 -0.99 to -0.98 - 98 ... -0.01 to 0 - 0 0 to 0.01 - 1 ... Then, if you had a signal and you multiplied it by 10, the entropy measured from the discrete values would increase. However--this does not mean the signal has more information. It just becomes louder. If you decide to convert the signal into symbols, it has to be a meaningful rule. Otherwise, you might not be measuring the thing you meant to. Other way i was experimenting is using this with video and images, for example converting an image into a array of characters iterating over all the pixels an getting the color of each pixel , then converting those values into characters and then evaluating the shannons entropy of each image. I would like to expand this and use it also for self generated 3d structure, but im still thinking about this. cheers. R. can you please explain me why do you say it would be meaningless? That would do something, but may be meaningless--It would be just one way of converting the signal from real numbers to a discrete set of things/symbols that is easier to calculate. 2013/2/27, Charles Z Henry czhe...@gmail.com: If you took the fft squared magnitude, perfectly noisy data should have a chi-squared distribution in each bin (I think). If you assumed that model and calculated the parameters of the distribution on each block, you'd find out how much information is in each of those peaks relative to the assumed distribution and just add it up. What ever algorithm you choose probably needs to pass some common sense tests like what you mention Martin, noise has more entropy than a sine wave. Also, if you take noise and just apply a comparison 0, you get a signal with less entropy. On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Martin Peach martin.pe...@sympatico.cawrote: Why not do an FFT and measure the variance of the channels? For instance white noise has maximum entropy and all the bins of its FFT will be more or less the same, while a sine wave has low entropy and one bin will be much larger than the others. Martin On 2013-02-27 08:40, ronni montoya wrote: Hi, why is not possible? Instead of analysing the real time value of the signal , maybe i can have a memory or buffer that store the a piece of signal ( groups of samples) from time to time and then analize that group of values. Maybe it can convert that group of values into a string and then: http://www.shannonentropy.**netmark.pl/calculate http://www.shannonentropy.netmark.pl/calculate Other idea : ive seen using shannon entropy for calculating complexity in
Re: [PD] Simple Kalman filter
I've updated my 1D linear Kalman filter to include an analysis method to improve the initial noise model, along with a proper help file. https://github.com/jwmatthys/kalman-pd Joel On 02/28/2013 05:05 PM, Charles Z Henry wrote: Hey Joel I was very interested to see your implementation. It's drastically simpler than I thought it would be. Well, you did mention it was simple :) However, I thought the math was pretty expensive to do and complex to program. I like the approach generally--you have parameters for the assumed noise model and methods to set them (better than trying to build a monolith that does both the measurement and filtering). Do you have another patch or abstraction to analyze the sensor data and calculate those parameters? If so, you should add it to git. Chuck On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Joel Matthys jwmatt...@gmail.com mailto:jwmatt...@gmail.com wrote: I just completed a very simple 1D Kalman filter Pd external. I haven't really done any documentation on it, but it seems pretty robust for cleaning up 1D sensor inputs. The source is here: https://github.com/jwmatthys/kalman-pd Joel ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] TCL bug-question
i am having a horrible TCL bug crashing files with pd extended 64 bit Ubuntu 64 12.04 LTS with Hradio buttons [at least the suspects] How do i generate a full window dump? pp ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] measuring entropy of a signal?
On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:28 PM, ronni montoya ronni.mont...@gmail.comwrote: In this case entropy varies with time and what i am interested in are the entropy trayectories. You can plot this trayectories and compare different trayectories from different songs . More complex sound structures should have more complex trayectories , not chaotic , not periodic but more complex . The problem for me is that i need to plot or visualize the entropy trayectories (values) in order to see the complexity of a sound structure. It would be nice to find a way to automate , for example find a way of measure different trayectories algorithmically and that computer can tells automatically which one is more complex. The subject I've been reading lately is basic computational neuroscience. I'll explain what I think is a similar example. Shannon entropy I think is connected to transmitting and processing information in neurons. When you have two signals that are highly correlated, they have high mutual information. Neurons in the peripheral nervous system transmit information and the neurons are specialized for transmitting information. One PNS neuron's output should have high mutual information with its input neurons. The kind of information is categorizing the trajectories. In terms of its output, a neuron is either firing or not firing. It's a lot like a binary variable so it sort of works like a digital signal. The most information it can carry is bounded by the rate it switches between states. In terms of signals--the trajectories of neurons are solutions of non-linear differential equations with lots of terms. You break out the neuron voltage into state-space equations where each of the variables is an ion current or the axon hillock voltage. In a neuron, some kinds of ions act quickly and inhibit, or two kinds of ions resonate when one is a fast exciter and the other is a slow inhibitor. A neuron is firing when the trajectory in the phase plane passes around an unstable equilibrium. Thing is, that's more of a synthesis problem. You just go ahead and build your model generate signals and then you can calculate entropy because you built your model to switch between states. The possible values of the system are constrained to the model--what do you do if you don't know what the possible values are? I applied for grad school this spring down at FAU in the CCSBS. Anything with BS in its name is great for me. This time it stands for Brain Sciences :) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
