Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[João Pais]

- but anyway Pd's operating language is (and it will be for much time)
english. Since all help files are in english, it's not possible to go  
beyond

a certain level in Pd without coping with this.


Do you mean it's not possible to translate help files ?


I guess it should be as possible as to translate anything else. but since  
the "official language" is english, and all attached documents are  
english, don't know how is feasible to translate everything and keep  
things updated in any other language. unless many people have lots of free  
time.




Having the object list in english slowly makes people get used to this
reality


Having the object list translated slowly makes people get used to the
possible future of translated help files.


guess so. be my guest, I'm not stopping anyone. just don't waste all the  
time and energy in any uncoordenated effort, leaving in the end lots of  
scattered information.




- I compiled this object list, and am fed up with it - it had to
be done with copy-paste.


I have made a tool to maintain an object list in several languages. It's
what was used to generate gridflow/doc/index.pd. Currently I use it only
for a single language, but it's already easy to plug alternate languages
into it, and it sorts the object list alphabetically and keeps everything
aligned, with the same spacing all over.

Just to make sure : by object list I mean something with short
descriptions, as found when right-clicking in the background of a canvas.
You mean the same thing, right ?


yes. http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/, "LIST OF OBJECTS"



this list is, in theory, already obsolete 5 minutes after being done.
There are always new objects,


I don't think that there ought to be a single centrally-maintained list.


that was the state of Pd externals before Pd-ext appeared, and no one knew  
exactly how many and which objects were available. I don't imagine having  
things scattered around to be of advantage to any users or programmers out  
there. something similar would logically apply to a general object list, I  
haven't heard anyone complaining about the effort I've made in making a  
big (unfinished) list of objects.




I
also don't think that it ought to be in a format that makes you think
something like "it's obsolete 5 minutes after being done" : a minor  
update

should feel like a minor update and not like a whole "oh no, not again !"
kind of chore.


for now the original format is an excel file, hardly a recommendable  
format for a dynamic list. someone had shown interest in making a drupal  
online list server, but I haven't heard from him for over an year.


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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:


2010/8/14 Mathieu Bouchard :

So, why do you mention graphviz ?

That was a way to have a file format just with the significant
information for the actual procedures plus comments linked to objects.


Please have a look at GridFlow. It already does runtime positioning. Also, 
upon loading GridFlow, you can connect object outlets to plain comments, 
thus allowing pd to save the significant information of which comment goes 
with which section. you connect each comment from a [doc_m] object's 
right outlet so that the positioning system knows which comments go with 
what.


  http://gridflow.ca/

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Bernardo Barros]

Well, yes, this would look like manuals, but I think that could be
changed. There is this proprietary software for mac that is basically
a dot engine behind the scenes with point-and-click mouse interaction:
http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnigraffle/features/

2010/8/14 Bernardo Barros :
> 2010/8/14 Mathieu Bouchard :
>> So, why do you mention graphviz ?
>
> That was a way to have a file format just with the significant
> information for the actual procedures plus comments linked to objects.
> Doc would arrange this objects in an optimal way in the screen IF
> there is no file for the positions. That could be something like
> patch1.dot (or .pdot) and patch1.pos. But that is a big change...
>

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Bernardo Barros]

2010/8/14 Mathieu Bouchard :
> So, why do you mention graphviz ?

That was a way to have a file format just with the significant
information for the actual procedures plus comments linked to objects.
Doc would arrange this objects in an optimal way in the screen IF
there is no file for the positions. That could be something like
patch1.dot (or .pdot) and patch1.pos. But that is a big change...

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:


There is this dot (graphviz) language, do you know?


Since many years ago, but I don't see how it is any relevant. Thinking at 
all of pd's documentation conventions I've seen along the years, the 
tendency is away from having comments scattered around the patch, and 
towards getting it organised in a very rigid way using a rectangle pattern 
more reminescent of reference manuals of various programming languages.


So, why do you mention graphviz ?


Yeah, but this will add computations to PD to proceed just to show up
a patch, maybe bad idea.


Have you seen GridFlow's help patches ? The doc elements can move around 
on their own under certain conditions. It takes a lot of CPU. Generally 
speaking, people don't complain so much about the CPU it takes. And it's 
possible to do the same or better, with a lot less CPU. My point is that 
redoing the layout when reloading each patch, isn't really a CPU-expensive 
thing to do (if done better than how I do it now).



Maybe a little change here? [inlet 1] [inlet 2] [inlet 3] ?


I think I proposed that in 2002 or 2003, and the reaction was negative. In 
the following years, there were two other different proposals to add 
arguments to inlets and outlets, both of which were for different purposes 
than ordering, and one of them was accepted in pd : [inlet~] and [outlet~] 
now take several numeric arguments. So, it's now impossible to add a 
numeric argument like that in pd, because of [inlet~] and [outlet~].


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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010, Martin Peach wrote:

Yes, if an external could generate its own help patch that would be 
something.


Jonathan proposed something similar a while ago. It would not work the 
same for all externals. GridFlow externals still have their own 
method-lookup guarded every time by a universal class_addanything... 
several meta-externals (language interfaces to make externals in other 
languages) do the same kind of thing.


It can't be fully automatic, because the doc generation tools can't 
inspect an external to the point of knowing which arguments will allow it 
to be created, how that affects the number of inlets, and all the nonfirst 
inlets (or all the inlets when using CLASS_NOINLET) go through t_inlets 
that you can't necessarily find in the class-table, and if you do find 
them, you can't associate them with each other until you have seen an 
instantiated object... etc. the trouble is endless.


The symbol table could be translated on the fly but the comment block is more 
difficult.


Wait, do you mean the external's code would use special commands to get 
the doc generated ? We were only thinking of generating the base structure 
of the help file to be filled in.


What do you mean by "translation of the symbol table" ? from what to 
what ? (btw, the symbol table has no class pointers)


Writing all of the doc in a non-pd format would help deal with the 
ordering of the comments and the diffs, but it wouldn't help us 
integrating any pd-specific features in the doc. (you can't auto-generate 
very meaningful examples of uses of pd objects...)


I still think that *-help.pd files should be the 'source code of the 
documentation' : it should be the place where we do all the editing. But I 
wouldn't prevent someone from having their own different system where 
*-help.pd files are generated.


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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Martin Peach]

On 2010-08-13 18:34, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Ildomar Gomes de Carvalho Junior wrote:


A tradução não é exclusivamente para pessoas que não compreendem o
Inglês,


It's also a matter of feeling more at home, regardless of actual skill.

I want to find a way to translate help patches while keeping track of
the changes in the original language so that the changes can be
translated without making mistakes (such as forgetting to translate some
changes).

But it's very difficult with Pd because, among other things, the order
of the objects (and comments) in a file changes every time you edit, so,
it's impossible to have a programme that can tell you which comment of
one file corresponds to a comment of the other file.

It will require some quite capable externals.


Yes, if an external could generate its own help patch that would be 
something.
A simplified format would have a single block of comment text and all 
the messages along with the object itself.
All possible messages are known to the external when it adds them to the 
symbol table.
The symbol table could be translated on the fly but the comment block is 
more difficult.


Martin

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Bernardo Barros]

2010/8/13 Mathieu Bouchard :
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
>
>> Hum, yes. For PD it is a problem indeed. The file format would have
>> separate "content" from "presentation", right?
>
> Yes and no... there are different things that this idea can mean. the
> documentation system of GridFlow does separate part of the presentation, as
> for example, the look of each section heading is completely determined by an
> abstraction, and the abstractions know the rules and know how to move
> themselves downwards on the canvas to leave enough space for other objects
> (you have to see it to understand) but the positions of the objects are
> still saved in the file even though most of them could be set to 0 0 when
> saving the file and the process of reloading the file would automatically
> reposition them (this latter repositioning already works).


I think if PD wants to have diff systems and things like that it have
to somehow separate what is significant and not significant for the
procedures of the program. Moving objects a little around is most of
the times little relevant.

There is this dot (graphviz) language, do you know? It renders simple
schemes to complete graphics. Something like:

one -> two -> three
one -> four
one -> five
three -> six

Yeah, but this will add computations to PD to proceed just to show up
a patch, maybe bad idea.

>> You can have the same program with objects in different places.
>> But to have that you must guarantee that the object location cannot
>> influence the procedures of the program (if a box is on the left or right of
>> another one).
>
> [inlet] [inlet~] [outlet] [outlet~] have behaviour that depends greatly on
> their x location.

Maybe a little change here? [inlet 1] [inlet 2] [inlet 3] ?

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:


Hum, yes. For PD it is a problem indeed. The file format would have
separate "content" from "presentation", right?


Yes and no... there are different things that this idea can mean. the 
documentation system of GridFlow does separate part of the presentation, 
as for example, the look of each section heading is completely determined 
by an abstraction, and the abstractions know the rules and know how to 
move themselves downwards on the canvas to leave enough space for other 
objects (you have to see it to understand) but the positions of the 
objects are still saved in the file even though most of them could be set 
to 0 0 when saving the file and the process of reloading the file would 
automatically reposition them (this latter repositioning already works).



You can have the same program with objects in different places.
But to have that you must guarantee that the object location cannot 
influence the procedures of the program (if a box is on the left or 
right of another one).


[inlet] [inlet~] [outlet] [outlet~] have behaviour that depends greatly on 
their x location.


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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, João Pais wrote:

- but anyway Pd's operating language is (and it will be for much time) 
english. Since all help files are in english, it's not possible to go beyond 
a certain level in Pd without coping with this.


Do you mean it's not possible to translate help files ?

Having the object list in english slowly makes people get used to this 
reality


Having the object list translated slowly makes people get used to the 
possible future of translated help files.



- I compiled this object list, and am fed up with it - it had to
be done with copy-paste.


I have made a tool to maintain an object list in several languages. It's 
what was used to generate gridflow/doc/index.pd. Currently I use it only 
for a single language, but it's already easy to plug alternate languages 
into it, and it sorts the object list alphabetically and keeps everything 
aligned, with the same spacing all over.


Just to make sure : by object list I mean something with short 
descriptions, as found when right-clicking in the background of a canvas. 
You mean the same thing, right ?


this list is, in theory, already obsolete 5 minutes after being done. 
There are always new objects,


I don't think that there ought to be a single centrally-maintained list. I 
also don't think that it ought to be in a format that makes you think 
something like "it's obsolete 5 minutes after being done" : a minor update 
should feel like a minor update and not like a whole "oh no, not again !" 
kind of chore.


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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Bernardo Barros]

Hum, yes. For PD it is a problem indeed. The file format would have
separate "content" from "presentation", right? You can have the same
program with objects in different places. But to have that you must
guarantee that the object location cannot influence the procedures of
the program (if a box is on the left or right of another one).


2010/8/13 Mathieu Bouchard :
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
>
>> yeah. ok :-) My point was based that we (free software guys) have
>> limited resources. And we (Portuguese speaking free software guys)
>> have a bit less. Is it nice to have lots of translations? Yes. But
>> what is the cost?
>
> The cost in Pd is quite terrible compared to many other documentation
> systems because the pd file format is not diffable. This is in great part
> the fault of the pd patch editor itself. The day we have meaningful diffs,
> we can systematise the evolution of pd help file translations, as mistakes
> are corrected, as details are explained, and as new features are added.
>
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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:


yeah. ok :-) My point was based that we (free software guys) have
limited resources. And we (Portuguese speaking free software guys)
have a bit less. Is it nice to have lots of translations? Yes. But
what is the cost?


The cost in Pd is quite terrible compared to many other documentation 
systems because the pd file format is not diffable. This is in great part 
the fault of the pd patch editor itself. The day we have meaningful diffs, 
we can systematise the evolution of pd help file translations, as mistakes 
are corrected, as details are explained, and as new features are added.


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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Ildomar Gomes de Carvalho Junior wrote:


A tradução não é exclusivamente para pessoas que não compreendem o Inglês,


It's also a matter of feeling more at home, regardless of actual skill.

I want to find a way to translate help patches while keeping track of the 
changes in the original language so that the changes can be translated 
without making mistakes (such as forgetting to translate some changes).


But it's very difficult with Pd because, among other things, the order of 
the objects (and comments) in a file changes every time you edit, so, it's 
impossible to have a programme that can tell you which comment of one file 
corresponds to a comment of the other file.


It will require some quite capable externals.

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Ildomar Gomes de Carvalho Junior]

A tradução não é exclusivamente para pessoas que não compreendem o Inglês,
até porquê não tem como fazer um uso pleno do PD sem saber pelo menos ler em
inglês.

Quando você começa a estudar algo do zero, fica mais fácil se isto está no
seu idioma. Isso é algo que até te anima e te adianta algumas horas de
estudo, principalmente quando está disponível uma tradução de boa qualidade.

Além disso as pessoas se sentem mais a vontade quando lêem um material na
língua nativa delas. Elas se sentem como que lembradas pelo resto da
comunidade, principalmente pela comunidade ativa do seu país. Gera um enorme
incentivo tanto para estudar o PD quanto para comtribuir para ele. Este é o
principal motivo de eu estar ajudando na tradução.

IldomarCarvalho

2010/8/12 Bernardo Barros 

> yeah. ok :-) My point was based that we (free software guys) have
> limited resources. And we (Portuguese speaking free software guys)
> have a bit less. Is it nice to have lots of translations? Yes. But
> what is the cost?  And this happens a lot with other free software
> projects, and with the Wikipedia too. Do we really need two massive
> Wikipedias one for each side?
>
> 2010/8/12 Mathieu Bouchard :
> > On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
> >
> >> Sometimes it's just one letter (with the new orography rules this is
> >> not a problem anymore),
> >
> > But do people actually use the new rules ?
> >
> > The 1990 French reform is essentially ignored where I live... people
> don't
> > seem to care much.
> >
> >> And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to
> >> Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)
> >
> > But, on a different register, François Pérusse has been rerecorded in
> > European French, Caméra Café has been completely reshot in Québécois
> French,
> > and american animé such as Simpsons and Flintstones have completely
> > different European French and Québécois French dubs.
> >
> > So, which analogy is better ? :)
> >
> > One has to remember that pd documentation has a certain style that makes
> it
> > mostly protected from lots of regionalisms yet makes it sensitive to some
> > other regionalisms, and it's in a way that is more like scientific and
> > technical writing in general, than like poetry, prose, or comedy. So,
> it's
> > important to justify some comparisons...
> >
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>
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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Bernardo Barros]

yeah. ok :-) My point was based that we (free software guys) have
limited resources. And we (Portuguese speaking free software guys)
have a bit less. Is it nice to have lots of translations? Yes. But
what is the cost?  And this happens a lot with other free software
projects, and with the Wikipedia too. Do we really need two massive
Wikipedias one for each side?

2010/8/12 Mathieu Bouchard :
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
>
>> Sometimes it's just one letter (with the new orography rules this is
>> not a problem anymore),
>
> But do people actually use the new rules ?
>
> The 1990 French reform is essentially ignored where I live... people don't
> seem to care much.
>
>> And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to
>> Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)
>
> But, on a different register, François Pérusse has been rerecorded in
> European French, Caméra Café has been completely reshot in Québécois French,
> and american animé such as Simpsons and Flintstones have completely
> different European French and Québécois French dubs.
>
> So, which analogy is better ? :)
>
> One has to remember that pd documentation has a certain style that makes it
> mostly protected from lots of regionalisms yet makes it sensitive to some
> other regionalisms, and it's in a way that is more like scientific and
> technical writing in general, than like poetry, prose, or comedy. So, it's
> important to justify some comparisons...
>
>  _ _ __ ___ _  _ _ ...
> | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:


Sometimes it's just one letter (with the new orography rules this is
not a problem anymore),


But do people actually use the new rules ?

The 1990 French reform is essentially ignored where I live... people don't 
seem to care much.



And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to
Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)


But, on a different register, François Pérusse has been rerecorded in 
European French, Caméra Café has been completely reshot in Québécois 
French, and american animé such as Simpsons and Flintstones have 
completely different European French and Québécois French dubs.


So, which analogy is better ? :)

One has to remember that pd documentation has a certain style that makes 
it mostly protected from lots of regionalisms yet makes it sensitive to 
some other regionalisms, and it's in a way that is more like scientific 
and technical writing in general, than like poetry, prose, or comedy. So, 
it's important to justify some comparisons...


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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Pedro Lopes]

>And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to
>Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)

Well said. I can help, but only with pt-pt naturally. (sorry for some reason
it feels weird to call it european portuguese =P)

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Bernardo Barros
wrote:

> And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to
> Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)
>



-- 
Pedro Lopes (ongoing MSc)
contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt
website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes
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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Bernardo Barros]

Sometimes it's just one letter (with the new orography rules this is
not a problem anymore), sometimes it's the choice of words, sometimes
it's the verb mode, sometimes it is just the way the sentence is
written. But it actually never makes you misunderstand things, at
least for Brazilians, I can't speak for everyone. But if you reach a
situation that can be misunderstood, a footnote is more then enough I
think.

And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to
Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)

2010/8/12 Mathieu Bouchard :
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
>
>> Personally I don't see the point why so many materials of pratical use in
>> free software splits the efford make two translations for brazilian and
>> european portuguese. It does even lees sense after the new orthography
>> common to both sides. Ok, I know, there *are* differences, but, come on!,
>> they don't make you misunderstand anything, it's just a different flavor.
>
> Is this something that can be synched using a search-and-replace tool ?
>
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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:

Personally I don't see the point why so many materials of pratical use 
in free software splits the efford make two translations for brazilian 
and european portuguese. It does even lees sense after the new 
orthography common to both sides. Ok, I know, there *are* differences, 
but, come on!, they don't make you misunderstand anything, it's just a 
different flavor.


Is this something that can be synched using a search-and-replace tool ?

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Vilson Vieira wrote:

yes, it's pt-br. Every translation is interesting not just for the 
native speakers of the target language, but even the original version 
could benefit from that. Translating a document we're revisioning the 
original one, so it's so natural to go back to that and include some 
contribution.


Yes. It's important that the translators are not just blindly translating 
everything they read. That way, it makes the translation effort more worth 
it without much of the cost of a separate review.


The cost of a separate review is that it's pushed back a long time because 
hey, it's not that urgent (it never is...). Having translations means the 
original manual ought to be rather solid, in order to not waste the 
translation effort.


I usually recommend the FLOSS Manual of Pure Data to new users, and they 
don't like so much when discovers that it's written just in english. for 
newcomers it's a pretext to run out.


indeed. it probably is a bigger problem than it seems, nowadays, simply 
because also many people wouldn't admit that English is a reason to run 
out, and so they'd mention any pretext other than English.


But even to someone who knows English very well, manuals written in 
English aren't as inviting as manuals written in one's own language.



Personally I don't like to read translations,


Is it that the translations are not good enough ?

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[João Pais]

I think mainly the object list of the FLOSS Manual needs to be  
translated:

every new user of PD wants a "cheat sheet", and I know it's a right-click
away from them, but some times, at workshops for instance, it's good to  
have

a piece of paper to show all the from-basic-to-powerful objects.


I think exactly the object list is what doesn't pay up to translate. I'll  
try to list the reasons:


- it makes sense to translate the tutorials, as some people can learn the  
techniques faster
- but anyway Pd's operating language is (and it will be for much time)  
english. Since all help files are in english, it's not possible to go  
beyond a certain level in Pd without coping with this. Having the object  
list in english slowly makes people get used to this reality
- I compiled this object list, and am fed up with it - it had to be done  
with copy-paste. Of course I have nothing against someone translating it,  
but I won't be doing it myself.
- this list is, in theory, already obsolete 5 minutes after being done.  
There are always new objects, or (some) existing objects can be changed at  
any time (in real life very few do). so in english it's already not a  
perfect solution, and in another language it will be even less. unless  
someone wants to stick with the list for a long term.
- for now it's not a priority for me, but I will at some point try to find  
an "automatic" way of generating an updated object list of pd-ext (now has  
around 3000 files in the /extra folder). so, don't look at the list as  
something stopped in time, but as something flowing (at a slow speed)


If you want to coordinate some effort to translate the floss manual, I  
suggest to leave the list for the end, or even not do it. But it's my  
suggestion.
I would also suggest to translate the patches that come with Pd - or did  
someone do it already? Many people complain that Pd doesn't has such nice  
tutorial patches as Max-MSP, but it has almost the same ones. People just  
don't know about it.


I don't want to get deeply involved in the organisation, but I put some  
hours at some time translating/revising material. I will do it in pt-pt,  
and whoever wants can change it to br-pt.


João Pais

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Vilson Vieira]

+1

2010/8/11 Bernardo Barros 

> Personally I don't see the point why so many materials of pratical use
> in free software splits the efford make two translations for brazilian
> and european portuguese. It does even lees sense after the new
> orthography common to both sides. Ok, I know, there *are* differences,
> but, come on!, they don't make you misunderstand anything, it's just a
> different flavor.
>
> I would vote to unify effords concerning any translation like this
> tutorial or any text of pratical use. They could even mix up, one
> chapter made by a brazilian, another by a portuguese guy, no problem.
>
> 2010/8/11, Vilson Vieira :
> > Em 10 de agosto de 2010 21:42, João Pais 
> escreveu:
> >
> >> Oi galera,
> >>
> >
> > Hey João,
> >
> >
> >> posso perguntar qual o interesse específico em traduzir o manual (ou
> outro
> >> material qualquer) para portugês? [português do brasil, imagino]
> >>
> >
> > yes, it's pt-br. Every translation is interesting not just for the native
> > speakers of the target language, but even the original version could
> benefit
> > from that. Translating a document we're revisioning the original one, so
> > it's so natural to go back to that and include some contribution.
> >
> > I usually recommend the FLOSS Manual of Pure Data to new users, and they
> > don't like so much when discovers that it's written just in english.
> > Personally I don't like to read translations, but for newcomers it's a
> > pretext to run out.
> >
> > I think mainly the object list of the FLOSS Manual needs to be
> translated:
> > every new user of PD wants a "cheat sheet", and I know it's a right-click
> > away from them, but some times, at workshops for instance, it's good to
> have
> > a piece of paper to show all the from-basic-to-powerful objects.
> >
> >
> >> Eu sou um dos participantes do floss manual (fiz a lista de objectos e o
> >> capítulo sobre listas).
> >
> >
> > It's awesome! Congrats and thanks! :-)
> >
> > @Gabi: I want to help too ;-)
> >
> > All the best.
> >
> > OBS: João, a resposta foi em inglês pois creio que o pessoal da lista se
> > beneficie. Abraços!
> >
> > --
> > Vilson Vieira
> >
> > vil...@void.cc
> >
> > ((( http://automata.cc )))
> >
> > ((( http://musa.cc )))
> >
>



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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Bernardo Barros]

Personally I don't see the point why so many materials of pratical use
in free software splits the efford make two translations for brazilian
and european portuguese. It does even lees sense after the new
orthography common to both sides. Ok, I know, there *are* differences,
but, come on!, they don't make you misunderstand anything, it's just a
different flavor.

I would vote to unify effords concerning any translation like this
tutorial or any text of pratical use. They could even mix up, one
chapter made by a brazilian, another by a portuguese guy, no problem.

2010/8/11, Vilson Vieira :
> Em 10 de agosto de 2010 21:42, João Pais  escreveu:
>
>> Oi galera,
>>
>
> Hey João,
>
>
>> posso perguntar qual o interesse específico em traduzir o manual (ou outro
>> material qualquer) para portugês? [português do brasil, imagino]
>>
>
> yes, it's pt-br. Every translation is interesting not just for the native
> speakers of the target language, but even the original version could benefit
> from that. Translating a document we're revisioning the original one, so
> it's so natural to go back to that and include some contribution.
>
> I usually recommend the FLOSS Manual of Pure Data to new users, and they
> don't like so much when discovers that it's written just in english.
> Personally I don't like to read translations, but for newcomers it's a
> pretext to run out.
>
> I think mainly the object list of the FLOSS Manual needs to be translated:
> every new user of PD wants a "cheat sheet", and I know it's a right-click
> away from them, but some times, at workshops for instance, it's good to have
> a piece of paper to show all the from-basic-to-powerful objects.
>
>
>> Eu sou um dos participantes do floss manual (fiz a lista de objectos e o
>> capítulo sobre listas).
>
>
> It's awesome! Congrats and thanks! :-)
>
> @Gabi: I want to help too ;-)
>
> All the best.
>
> OBS: João, a resposta foi em inglês pois creio que o pessoal da lista se
> beneficie. Abraços!
>
> --
> Vilson Vieira
>
> vil...@void.cc
>
> ((( http://automata.cc )))
>
> ((( http://musa.cc )))
>

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Vilson Vieira]

Em 10 de agosto de 2010 21:42, João Pais  escreveu:

> Oi galera,
>

Hey João,


> posso perguntar qual o interesse específico em traduzir o manual (ou outro
> material qualquer) para portugês? [português do brasil, imagino]
>

yes, it's pt-br. Every translation is interesting not just for the native
speakers of the target language, but even the original version could benefit
from that. Translating a document we're revisioning the original one, so
it's so natural to go back to that and include some contribution.

I usually recommend the FLOSS Manual of Pure Data to new users, and they
don't like so much when discovers that it's written just in english.
Personally I don't like to read translations, but for newcomers it's a
pretext to run out.

I think mainly the object list of the FLOSS Manual needs to be translated:
every new user of PD wants a "cheat sheet", and I know it's a right-click
away from them, but some times, at workshops for instance, it's good to have
a piece of paper to show all the from-basic-to-powerful objects.


> Eu sou um dos participantes do floss manual (fiz a lista de objectos e o
> capítulo sobre listas).


It's awesome! Congrats and thanks! :-)

@Gabi: I want to help too ;-)

All the best.

OBS: João, a resposta foi em inglês pois creio que o pessoal da lista se
beneficie. Abraços!

-- 
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vil...@void.cc

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[João Pais]

Oi galera,

posso perguntar qual o interesse específico em traduzir o manual (ou outro  
material qualquer) para portugês? [português do brasil, imagino]


Eu sou um dos participantes do floss manual (fiz a lista de objectos e o  
capítulo sobre listas). Posso tentar ajudar, mas por enquanto não sei se  
tenho tempo (ou disposição) para fazer essa uma das minhas prioridades.


Qual é a situação no brasil, é mesmo mais fácil de usar o material  
didáctico estando em português, ou as pessoas podem ler bem o inglês?


Para além de mim há no máximo uma mão-cheia de utilizadores portugueses.  
Brasileiros há bastantes mais, tanto quanto sei alguns de São Paulo.


Cumprimentos,

João Pais


The FLOSS Manual gets discussed on the Discuss-FM list and on the Pd  
list. I've posted several updates on what could be done to improve the  
English manual on both lists in the last few years, which don't seem to  
get much attention...


Mostly people edit it in a hit-and-run kind of fashion when they find  
something they think needs fixing while reading it. Major pushes towards  
improvements happen during book sprints, but we have none planned. My  
own life and work has taken me pretty far from the project myself at the  
moment, so I stay on mainly as admin.


Like HC said, and I echoed, don't wait around for the English manual to  
be "finished". It's not likely to happen any time soon. Start  
translating, and if you find problems or places where it is incomplete,  
then fill the gaps in Portuguese or even in English if you like. If you  
add content in Portuguese, point it out to us on these two lists and  
perhaps someone will translate it into English.


Best!
Derek

On 8/10/10 12:54 AM, Gabi Thumé wrote:


I am really interested to contribute to the Portuguese version, BTW I
think that the English version also need help to be finished. But I
don't know how I can contribute with.
I know that all of you are making effort to this Manual, but I think the
community that wants to learn PD here in Brazil needs a translation.
But I wish to help you with the English version too.
So, how can I help the English version? Which version may I translate to
Portuguese? The last one of each chapter? How to know the state of the
English version? Is there another mail list of the guys doing that?

Sorry about all of my questions.

Thanks.






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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Derek Holzer]

The FLOSS Manual gets discussed on the Discuss-FM list and on the Pd 
list. I've posted several updates on what could be done to improve the 
English manual on both lists in the last few years, which don't seem to 
get much attention...


Mostly people edit it in a hit-and-run kind of fashion when they find 
something they think needs fixing while reading it. Major pushes towards 
improvements happen during book sprints, but we have none planned. My 
own life and work has taken me pretty far from the project myself at the 
moment, so I stay on mainly as admin.


Like HC said, and I echoed, don't wait around for the English manual to 
be "finished". It's not likely to happen any time soon. Start 
translating, and if you find problems or places where it is incomplete, 
then fill the gaps in Portuguese or even in English if you like. If you 
add content in Portuguese, point it out to us on these two lists and 
perhaps someone will translate it into English.


Best!
Derek

On 8/10/10 12:54 AM, Gabi Thumé wrote:


I am really interested to contribute to the Portuguese version, BTW I
think that the English version also need help to be finished. But I
don't know how I can contribute with.
I know that all of you are making effort to this Manual, but I think the
community that wants to learn PD here in Brazil needs a translation.
But I wish to help you with the English version too.
So, how can I help the English version? Which version may I translate to
Portuguese? The last one of each chapter? How to know the state of the
English version? Is there another mail list of the guys doing that?

Sorry about all of my questions.

Thanks.



--
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---Oblique Strategy # 104:
"Listen in total darkness, or in a very large room, very quietly"

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Re: [PD] [FM Discuss] Portuguese translation of the PD manual

[Gabi Thumé]

I am really interested to contribute to the Portuguese version, BTW I think
that the English version also need help to be finished. But I don't know how
I can contribute with.
I know that all of you are making effort to this Manual, but I think the
community that wants to learn PD here in Brazil needs a translation.
But I wish to help you with the English version too.
So, how can I help the English version? Which version may I translate to
Portuguese? The last one of each chapter? How to know the state of the
English version? Is there another mail list of the guys doing that?

Sorry about all of my questions.

Thanks.


@ariane, we can talk by mail, thanks  ;-)


cheers,


2010/8/9 Derek Holzer 

> I'm totally supportive of "forking" whatever translation comes up. The
> reason that the Pd FLOSS Manual will never be "finished" is that Pd can do
> some many things, and the docs all arise out of individual people's research
> and needs. So if the PT scene has other stuff they are interested in, and
> skew their manual in that direction, good for them!
> D.
>
>
>
> On 8/9/10 11:50 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>
>>
>> FLOSS Manuals is really in a similar style of a wiki. So once the
>> Portuguese version of the manual gets started, you can just edit
>> chapters as you have time. The big question here is whether the
>> Portuguese should stick closely to the English version, or just
>> naturally develop in relation to the English. I would hate to see the
>> Portuguese effort blocked by waiting for the English effort, but there
>> is also something to be gained by staying in sync. Plus if there is a
>> big push to write the Portuguese version, then the English version could
>> also draw from it. Of course, I hope that as people work on the
>> Portuguese version, they could also contribute to the English version.
>>
>> That's the discussion, I see good reasons to do it both ways. Its up to
>> the people who want to work on the Portuguese version how they want to
>> approach it.
>>
>> .hc
>>
>> On Aug 9, 2010, at 5:28 PM, Ariane stolfi wrote:
>>
>>  hi
>>>
>>> I would like to help also, how can I?
>>>
>>> []
>>> a
>>>
>>> 2010/8/9 Derek Holzer mailto:de...@umatic.nl>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Hello Gabi & Ildomar,
>>>
>>>the PD FLOSS Manual is still very much under development. If you
>>>want to translate it, that;s fine but keep in mind that it could
>>>be revised at any time. Take the chapters from the editing
>>>interface rather than the published online version for the most
>>>recent, but somewhat "unstable" versions/revisions. And feel free
>>>to maker improvements where you find a place for them!
>>>
>>>Best,
>>>Derek
>>>
>>>
>>>On 8/9/10 10:33 PM, Gabi Thumé wrote:
>>>
>>>Hello!
>>>
>>>We are interested to help the portuguese translation of the Floss
>>>Manuals of Pure Data.
>>>
>>>We are looking forward to help this comunity!
>>>
>>>In the translation interface has a option with various
>>>revisions, I
>>>suppose we need to translate the last revision (1.15), is it
>>>right?
>>>We just started editing the introduction, so can we just
>>>publish it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks for now.
>>>
>>>
>>>cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>GabrielaThume and IldomarCarvalho
>>>
>>>--
>>>"A realidade é a fuga para aqueles que não têm coragem de
>>>enfrentar os
>>>sonhos" -- Slavoj Zizek
>>>
>>>
>>>Gabriela Salvador Thumé >> http://gabi.void.cc/
>>>
>>>Bacharelanda em Ciência da Computação (UDESC - Joinville)
>>>Colméia - Grupo de Pesquisa em Software Livre
>>>MuSA - http://musa.cc
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>--
>>>::: derek holzer ::: http://macumbista.net :::
>>>---Oblique Strategy # 194:
>>>"Steal a solution."
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
>> exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
>> idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it
>> to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the
>> possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of
>> it. - Thomas