Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency?
Thanks guys this all sounds promising. Also I should have mentioned initially that it's MIDI to Audio latency I'm mainly worried about. Using standard class-compliant USB midi controllers, but guitar/live audio FX processing would be my second project. From: Tyler Leavitt thecryofl...@gmail.com To: JF sainti...@yahoo.com Cc: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com; pd list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, 27 July 2012, 2:50 Subject: Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency? 10ms is around the human-ear latency, so anything at that level or below should be good enough for guitar/drumming (this is anectodtal... Iḿ not sure the exact science behind it). Ive never had a problem with my friends older 13 MacBook Pro used as a guitar FX box. Tyler On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:32 PM, JF sainti...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks Dafydd, that's promising. I can't get lower than 512 on my Windows laptop. Are you doing any pad tapping for beats or live feeds such as guitar processing? Just wondering if your latency is low enough for that sort of musicianship? John From: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com To: JF sainti...@yahoo.com Cc: pd list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thursday, 26 July 2012, 20:04 Subject: Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency? Hi John I've been getting pretty reliable 128-sample buffers using JACK with my mid-2010 15. I don't usually use 64 but when I've tried it's been no problem. Can't remember what it translates to in ms, but 128 seems like instant to me, somewhere between 5-10 I think. Others may be able to offer more detail/correct me. cheers dafydd -- Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com On Thursday, 26 July, 2012 at 2:53 PM, JF wrote: I'm on the market for a second hand 13 Macbook Pro circa late 2009 - early/mid 2010. I was wondering if anybody here has had experience of using the stock internal soundcard for low latency for pd? What kind of millisecond ballpark would I be looking at? Thanks in advance, John. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency?
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Tyler Leavitt thecryofl...@gmail.com wrote: 10ms is around the human-ear latency, so anything at that level or below should be good enough for guitar/drumming (this is anectodtal... Iḿ not sure the exact science behind it). Ive never had a problem with my friends older 13 MacBook Pro used as a guitar FX box. Tyler I believe the phenomenon you're describing is called loudness integration. However, I can't find any good citations available on the internet to back it up--here's something that *might* be applicable: Plack, C. J., Moore, B. C. J. (1990). Temporal window shape as a function of frequency and level. Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 87, 2178–2187. The basic idea is that the cochlea is fed a series of waves and a particular place on the basilar membrane resonates most for a given frequency. The instantaneous power delivered is low, so the power needs to accumulate before the stimulus is strong enough to be perceived. As I recall, it takes about 20 ms to reach a steady state, but it's been a while since I've read anything about it. Chuck ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency?
Well from a musicians point of view (me) everything above 8ms is not very playable. This is obvioulsy only true if the generated sound has instant attack, otherwise latency does not really matter :-) On Jul 27, 2012 2:30 PM, Charles Henry czhe...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Tyler Leavitt thecryofl...@gmail.com wrote: 10ms is around the human-ear latency, so anything at that level or below should be good enough for guitar/drumming (this is anectodtal... Iḿ not sure the exact science behind it). Ive never had a problem with my friends older 13 MacBook Pro used as a guitar FX box. Tyler I believe the phenomenon you're describing is called loudness integration. However, I can't find any good citations available on the internet to back it up--here's something that *might* be applicable: Plack, C. J., Moore, B. C. J. (1990). Temporal window shape as a function of frequency and level. Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 87, 2178–2187. The basic idea is that the cochlea is fed a series of waves and a particular place on the basilar membrane resonates most for a given frequency. The instantaneous power delivered is low, so the power needs to accumulate before the stimulus is strong enough to be perceived. As I recall, it takes about 20 ms to reach a steady state, but it's been a while since I've read anything about it. Chuck ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency?
There's a threshold for distinguishing two discrete audio events of at least 10ms or so, but that doesn't mean there are no audible artifacts below that. A flanger effect is between 1 and 10ms so low latency can give a static 'hollow' comb filtered sound when the dry and processed sound are mixed. Whether or not one finds that sound objectionable is purely subjective, but it has been known to affect artists enough that they can't perform well. Also, consider that sound travels about a foot a millisecond so standing 10 feet from a guitar amp means the sound is delayed 10ms. I don't hear much about this latency problem though. On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Simon Iten itensi...@gmail.com wrote: Well from a musicians point of view (me) everything above 8ms is not very playable. This is obvioulsy only true if the generated sound has instant attack, otherwise latency does not really matter :-) On Jul 27, 2012 2:30 PM, Charles Henry czhe...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Tyler Leavitt thecryofl...@gmail.com wrote: 10ms is around the human-ear latency, so anything at that level or below should be good enough for guitar/drumming (this is anectodtal... Iḿ not sure the exact science behind it). Ive never had a problem with my friends older 13 MacBook Pro used as a guitar FX box. Tyler I believe the phenomenon you're describing is called loudness integration. However, I can't find any good citations available on the internet to back it up--here's something that *might* be applicable: Plack, C. J., Moore, B. C. J. (1990). Temporal window shape as a function of frequency and level. Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 87, 2178–2187. The basic idea is that the cochlea is fed a series of waves and a particular place on the basilar membrane resonates most for a given frequency. The instantaneous power delivered is low, so the power needs to accumulate before the stimulus is strong enough to be perceived. As I recall, it takes about 20 ms to reach a steady state, but it's been a while since I've read anything about it. Chuck ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency?
On Jul 27, 2012 6:19 PM, wrote: ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency?
For me this is an important metric. I've been using Pd with guitar at 10-12ms latency for years with no problems ... 0 latency doesn't exist in real life ... On Jul 27, 2012, at 11:58 AM, chris clepper wrote: Also, consider that sound travels about a foot a millisecond so standing 10 feet from a guitar amp means the sound is delayed 10ms. I don't hear much about this latency problem though. Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency?
I'm on the market for a second hand 13 Macbook Pro circa late 2009 - early/mid 2010. I was wondering if anybody here has had experience of using the stock internal soundcard for low latency for pd? What kind of millisecond ballpark would I be looking at? Thanks in advance, John. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency?
Hi John I've been getting pretty reliable 128-sample buffers using JACK with my mid-2010 15. I don't usually use 64 but when I've tried it's been no problem. Can't remember what it translates to in ms, but 128 seems like instant to me, somewhere between 5-10 I think. Others may be able to offer more detail/correct me. cheers dafydd -- Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com On Thursday, 26 July, 2012 at 2:53 PM, JF wrote: I'm on the market for a second hand 13 Macbook Pro circa late 2009 - early/mid 2010. I was wondering if anybody here has had experience of using the stock internal soundcard for low latency for pd? What kind of millisecond ballpark would I be looking at? Thanks in advance, John. ___ Pd-list@iem.at (mailto:Pd-list@iem.at) mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency?
Thanks Dafydd, that's promising. I can't get lower than 512 on my Windows laptop. Are you doing any pad tapping for beats or live feeds such as guitar processing? Just wondering if your latency is low enough for that sort of musicianship? John From: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com To: JF sainti...@yahoo.com Cc: pd list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thursday, 26 July 2012, 20:04 Subject: Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency? Hi John I've been getting pretty reliable 128-sample buffers using JACK with my mid-2010 15. I don't usually use 64 but when I've tried it's been no problem. Can't remember what it translates to in ms, but 128 seems like instant to me, somewhere between 5-10 I think. Others may be able to offer more detail/correct me. cheers dafydd -- Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com On Thursday, 26 July, 2012 at 2:53 PM, JF wrote: I'm on the market for a second hand 13 Macbook Pro circa late 2009 - early/mid 2010. I was wondering if anybody here has had experience of using the stock internal soundcard for low latency for pd? What kind of millisecond ballpark would I be looking at? Thanks in advance, John. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency?
10ms is around the human-ear latency, so anything at that level or below should be good enough for guitar/drumming (this is anectodtal... Iḿ not sure the exact science behind it). Ive never had a problem with my friends older 13 MacBook Pro used as a guitar FX box. Tyler On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:32 PM, JF sainti...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks Dafydd, that's promising. I can't get lower than 512 on my Windows laptop. Are you doing any pad tapping for beats or live feeds such as guitar processing? Just wondering if your latency is low enough for that sort of musicianship? John -- *From:* Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com *To:* JF sainti...@yahoo.com *Cc:* pd list pd-list@iem.at *Sent:* Thursday, 26 July 2012, 20:04 *Subject:* Re: [PD] 2009-2010 Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Latency? Hi John I've been getting pretty reliable 128-sample buffers using JACK with my mid-2010 15. I don't usually use 64 but when I've tried it's been no problem. Can't remember what it translates to in ms, but 128 seems like instant to me, somewhere between 5-10 I think. Others may be able to offer more detail/correct me. cheers dafydd -- Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com On Thursday, 26 July, 2012 at 2:53 PM, JF wrote: I'm on the market for a second hand 13 Macbook Pro circa late 2009 - early/mid 2010. I was wondering if anybody here has had experience of using the stock internal soundcard for low latency for pd? What kind of millisecond ballpark would I be looking at? Thanks in advance, John. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
