Re: [PD] HRTF
On 3/28/07, Chris McCormick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 08:37:46PM -0400, Chuckk Hubbard wrote: Was PD previously under GPL? No. Frank explained to me that Pd-extended is under GPL. I have to go back and revise the package I created, if only to add the Berkley license info. I'm pretty sure I didn't actually use the executable that was with Pd-extended. So if version 0.5 is available under BSD license, and the author later decides to go GPL, could they replace vs 0.5 on sourceforge with an exact copy except with a different license.txt? And if someone then downloaded that same software, aware that it was BSD, and violated GPL thinking it was still BSD... A moot point anyway. I swear I looked once and saw GPL for Pd, but I guess it was Pd-extended. Suffice to say Csound is LGPL and AFAIK completely open. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
On 3/28/07, Chris McCormick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 10:50:11PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote: You can embed Pd into a proprietary software and apart from telling, that you did so, you have no further obligations (that's why Max can use parts of Pd inside). With Csound this is not allowed I must disagree with this; I think that is allowed with Csound, actually. Under the terms of the LGPL you are allowed to link LGPL code into a proprietary product, and you don't have to show the source to your proprietary product. The difference is that if you modify the Someone was just saying this recently on the Csound list. I actually thought it would be useful knowledge, regarding using Csound's HRTF implementation in a video game. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
Chuckk Hubbard wrote: On 3/28/07, Chris McCormick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 08:37:46PM -0400, Chuckk Hubbard wrote: Was PD previously under GPL? No. Frank explained to me that Pd-extended is under GPL. I have to go back and revise the package I created, if only to add the Berkley license info. I'm pretty sure I didn't actually use the executable that was with Pd-extended. So if version 0.5 is available under BSD license, and the author later decides to go GPL, could they replace vs 0.5 on sourceforge with an exact copy except with a different license.txt? And if someone then downloaded that same software, aware that it was BSD, and violated GPL thinking it was still BSD... once a package is released under a certain license (well, if the packager has the right to release under this very license), everybody who got hold of the package under this license can do whatever they want according to the license they got. so: if you release v0.5 under BSD-license but then change your mind and replace the BSD-license with a GPL, the package would be double licensed: anybody can chose which of the 2 licenses they want. (deleting the version with the BSD-license from sourceforge does not mean that the BSD-license does not apply to the package shipped with that license anymore). they cannot violate the GPL, as they have a package versioned under BSD. (it's basically the same mechanism that chris has explained in this earlier email) A moot point anyway. I swear I looked once and saw GPL for Pd, but I guess it was Pd-extended. must have been. the BSD license is so open that you can even distribute such software under GPL (this is what pd-extended does). mfg.asdr IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
Hi! Isidro Gonzalez wrote: Hi. I am looking for PD objects and/or abstractions to do HRTF filtering. Any ideas on where to get them? Take two FIR~s (from IEMlib, one for each ear), load the head related impulse responses as filters in the tables and filter a monaural signal. The only problem with this solution is that FIR~ is not capable of changing filters in real time. Doing that, FIR~ restarts the filtering and produces clicks. So, you are limited to static virtual positions with FIR~... br, Piotr ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
Pd people continue to ignore Csound, and Csound people continue to ignore Pd, despite the great power of combining them. I can't help feeling like this is a symptom of being more interested in some intellectual problem than in using all of the available tools to make music. Not seeing the forest for the trees, in a way. -Chuckk On 3/20/07, Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting idea. Only thing I could suggest would be to use Csound with Pd's csoundapi~ object. You could totally set up an interface for setting angles and stuff with GEM, then relay the HRTF info to Csound. It would be pretty awesome. I wouldn't know where to start trying to set up HRTF just in Pd. -Chuckk On 3/20/07, Isidro Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. I am looking for PD objects and/or abstractions to do HRTF filtering. Any ideas on where to get them? Thanks Isi It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
Chuckk Hubbard wrote: Pd people continue to ignore Csound, and Csound people continue to ignore Pd, despite the great power of combining them. I can't help feeling like this is a symptom of being more interested in some intellectual problem than in using all of the available tools to make music. Not seeing the forest for the trees, in a way. this is somewhat true, but ignores the fact that Pd is well established _outside_ the computer music community too. you cannot expect dsp-engineers developping the latest-and-greatest binaural rendering system to get into csound. (but they do use Pd) mfga.sdr IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
I'd love to hear work that comes out of a combination of Csound and Pd I think both are great, just different. Something I feel very strongly about though, are there still 'licensing issues' with Csound or has it shaken off all it's encumberances and become a totally free OS codebase? On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:23:29 -0400 Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/27/07, IOhannes m zmoelnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chuckk Hubbard wrote: Pd people continue to ignore Csound, and Csound people continue to ignore Pd, despite the great power of combining them. I can't help feeling like this is a symptom of being more interested in some intellectual problem than in using all of the available tools to make music. Not seeing the forest for the trees, in a way. this is somewhat true, but ignores the fact that Pd is well established _outside_ the computer music community too. you cannot expect dsp-engineers developping the latest-and-greatest binaural rendering system to get into csound. (but they do use Pd) Fair enough. Csound is indeed audiocentric, as am I. I just know Csound has already implemented HRTF, and exists as a PD object, which I thought the poster wanted. If his interest is in pulling an abstraction apart to see how it works, then Csound probably isn't the easiest way. As far as computer music, it's true that I come across few people who are active on both lists, and occasional disparaging remarks about one or the other. I guess the best thing for me to do in that case is to try to show some of the great things that can come from the combination, rather than complaining about negativity. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
Something I feel very strongly about though, are there still 'licensing issues' with Csound or has it shaken off all it's encumberances and become a totally free OS codebase? -- i heard john ffitch (head csound bloke, and a professor at bath uni) do a talk a couple of years back, he said that after long discussions with mit, it is open source now, they did a total rewrite for the latest version i think, whether this means it's totally totally OS is of course another matter ;-) all the best adam ___ New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
Hallo, Chuckk Hubbard hat gesagt: // Chuckk Hubbard wrote: I believe Csound is under LGPL, and if I understand correctly the main difference is that people who use parts of it in commercial applications are not required to keep their source open. Someone else will know better, but to my understanding that makes Csound more open than Pd. This depends on how you define open. Pd has a more permissive license than the LGPL. You can embed Pd into a proprietary software and apart from telling, that you did so, you have no further obligations (that's why Max can use parts of Pd inside). With Csound this is not allowed: If you distribute a (possibly changed) binary of Csound, you have to make available your changes freely as well and give us the source to them. So with Csound, you are required to open source changes, with Pd you're not. In this regard, Csound is more open than Pd because it enforces openness while Pd doesn't give a thing. ;) Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
Was PD previously under GPL? I published my Pd patch together with copies of Pd, zexy, cyclone, and toxy, and the only license file I could find in my Pd folder was GPL. I meant this in exactly the sense you are saying, but I wasn't aware Pd was under the Berkley License. So after software has been released under a license, it is possible to retroactively change the license? Sounds strange to me. -Chuckk On 3/27/07, Mike McGonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think that CSound is more Open that PD, as I believe that Miller has released PD under the Berkley License, which is far more open than the GNU license, it doesn't require any kind of adherance to any sort of policy, you can use it for whatever purposes you see fit, even commercial... http://www-crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/Software/LICENSE.txt Mike On 3/27/07, Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe Csound is under LGPL, and if I understand correctly the main difference is that people who use parts of it in commercial applications are not required to keep their source open. Someone else will know better, but to my understanding that makes Csound more open than Pd. -Chuckk On 3/28/07, padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd love to hear work that comes out of a combination of Csound and Pd I think both are great, just different. Something I feel very strongly about though, are there still 'licensing issues' with Csound or has it shaken off all it's encumberances and become a totally free OS codebase? On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:23:29 -0400 Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/27/07, IOhannes m zmoelnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chuckk Hubbard wrote: Pd people continue to ignore Csound, and Csound people continue to ignore Pd, despite the great power of combining them. I can't help feeling like this is a symptom of being more interested in some intellectual problem than in using all of the available tools to make music. Not seeing the forest for the trees, in a way. this is somewhat true, but ignores the fact that Pd is well established _outside_ the computer music community too. you cannot expect dsp-engineers developping the latest-and-greatest binaural rendering system to get into csound. (but they do use Pd) Fair enough. Csound is indeed audiocentric, as am I. I just know Csound has already implemented HRTF, and exists as a PD object, which I thought the poster wanted. If his interest is in pulling an abstraction apart to see how it works, then Csound probably isn't the easiest way. As far as computer music, it's true that I come across few people who are active on both lists, and occasional disparaging remarks about one or the other. I guess the best thing for me to do in that case is to try to show some of the great things that can come from the combination, rather than complaining about negativity. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Help the Environment, Plant a Bush back in Texas! I place economy among the first and most important republican virtues, and public debt as the greatest of the dangers to be feared. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. -- Thomas Jefferson, third US president, architect and author (1743-1826) Give Peace a Chance -- John Lennon (9 October 1940 – 8 December 1980) Peace may sound simple—one beautiful word— but it requires everything we have, every quality, every strength, every dream, every high ideal. —Yehudi Menuhin (1916–1999), musician -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 08:37:46PM -0400, Chuckk Hubbard wrote: Was PD previously under GPL? No. So after software has been released under a license, it is possible to retroactively change the license? Sounds strange to me. If you are the copyright holder, you can do whatever you want. In some cases it's very difficult to change the license. For example if there are many copyright holders, like the Linux kernel, you must get them all to agree. Although recently Bruce Perens posted an interesting article saying that this wasn't entirely true - Linus could state that he wished to change the license, and then just change the minds of those who disagreed with the move. He would not have to get every developer, including the dead ones, to state their agreement - silence would be taken as assent. One interesting and not-very-often-mentioned repercussion of this is that you can dual license your own software. For example, I can license my library GPL so that any changes to it must also be GPL, but I can also sell the exact same library to a company under a different, proprietary license if that company doesn't want to adhere to the GPL. That is completely legal, and I think it was what Trolltech did with Qt. Note that if you retroactively changed your GPL licensed software to be non-GPL licensed, people could still fork the code at the last point that it was licensed GPL and continue developing as before. Best, Chris. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mccormick.cx ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 10:50:11PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote: You can embed Pd into a proprietary software and apart from telling, that you did so, you have no further obligations (that's why Max can use parts of Pd inside). With Csound this is not allowed I must disagree with this; I think that is allowed with Csound, actually. Under the terms of the LGPL you are allowed to link LGPL code into a proprietary product, and you don't have to show the source to your proprietary product. The difference is that if you modify the source of the LGPL code (e.g. Csound itself) then you must then make those changes available under the terms of the LGPL. With GPL you are not even allowed to link GPL code into a closed source product (the closed source product automatically becomes GPL). With BSD you can do whatever you want, as you say. Best, Chris. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mccormick.cx ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] HRTF
Hi. I am looking for PD objects and/or abstractions to do HRTF filtering. Any ideas on where to get them? Thanks Isi It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
Interesting idea. Only thing I could suggest would be to use Csound with Pd's csoundapi~ object. You could totally set up an interface for setting angles and stuff with GEM, then relay the HRTF info to Csound. It would be pretty awesome. I wouldn't know where to start trying to set up HRTF just in Pd. -Chuckk On 3/20/07, Isidro Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. I am looking for PD objects and/or abstractions to do HRTF filtering. Any ideas on where to get them? Thanks Isi It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
Hallo! I am looking for PD objects and/or abstractions to do HRTF filtering. Any ideas on where to get them? 2 possibilities: - use the earplug~ external (in cvs/externals/earplug~) - use binaural ambisonic I am just making some workshop patches on how to do that for the linux audio conference - so if you wait a few days you can have the patches ... LG Georg ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] HRTF
I am not sure if that works too, but what about partconv~ . shouldnt it be possible with that too ? You have to build a lot around it i guess luigi Am 20.03.2007 um 17:03 schrieb Georg Holzmann: Hallo! I am looking for PD objects and/or abstractions to do HRTF filtering. Any ideas on where to get them? 2 possibilities: - use the earplug~ external (in cvs/externals/earplug~) - use binaural ambisonic I am just making some workshop patches on how to do that for the linux audio conference - so if you wait a few days you can have the patches ... LG Georg ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
