[PD] synchronised video outputs

[altern]

hi

I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who 
works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of 
solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive equipment 
like special DVD players.

I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have several 
computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and synchronise 
them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing, never 
used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to 
synchronise together videos.

Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?

thanks!

enrike

___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

altern wrote:
> hi
> 
> I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who 
> works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of 
> solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive equipment 
> like special DVD players.
> 
> I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have several 
> computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and synchronise 
> them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing, never 
> used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to 
> synchronise together videos.
> 
> Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?

yes.
we used a dual-head machine (actually it was a quad-head, so we had 
plenty of space for editing...) running a single gemwin covering both 
screens and 2 [pix_film]s that were controlled by the same counter.

since Gem allows you frame-accurate access, the 2 videos were in perfect 
synch.


fmga.sdr
IOhannes

___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[altern]

>> I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who 
>> works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of 
>> solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive equipment 
>> like special DVD players.
>>
>> I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have several 
>> computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and synchronise 
>> them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing, never 
>> used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to 
>> synchronise together videos.
>>
>> Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?
> 
> yes.
> we used a dual-head machine (actually it was a quad-head, so we had 
> plenty of space for editing...) running a single gemwin covering both 
> screens and 2 [pix_film]s that were controlled by the same counter.
> 
> since Gem allows you frame-accurate access, the 2 videos were in perfect 
> synch.

but we might need up to 6 to 8 video outputs, thats too much for the 
same machine. Thats why I thought about having a machine per video 
output connected to a LAN and synchronised via OSC.

enrike

___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[Damian Stewart]

altern wrote:

> but we might need up to 6 to 8 video outputs, thats too much for the 
> same machine. Thats why I thought about having a machine per video 
> output connected to a LAN and synchronised via OSC.

i've done this in the past, though not using PD/Gem. the tricky part is the 
robustness of the networking system, not the actual synchronisation (as 
local-area networking has a typical latency of 1-2ms, even over wireless). 
to sync more than one pc together you need a client/server architecture, 
basically, with one pc acting as the master timekeeper and all the others 
being slave. but then what happens if your master goes down? the others 
just sit there dormantly...

to solve this issue of robustness, which was a big deal (it was for 
synchronising three cpus in a travelling roadshow built into a truck 
trailer: http://www.frey.co.nz/projects/futurefarming which spent most of 
its time a long way away from me), i built a system where each cpu had the 
ability to be either server or client. when the first cpu came up it would 
listen for server pings for a couple of seconds, and if it didn't find one 
it would assume that it was to be the server so started up and sent out a 
ping every few hundred ms. then when the next ones came online they'd hear 
a server ping and so would connect to it as a client. this way if one 
machine was down the network could reorganise itself.

.. this kind of thing is probably overkill for your situation, but it's 
something to be aware of, perhaps.


-- 
damian stewart | +351 967 797 263 | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz

___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[simon wise]

On 25 Feb 2008, at 10:32 PM, altern wrote:

>
>>> I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who
>>> works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of
>>> solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive  
>>> equipment
>>> like special DVD players.
>>>
>>> I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have  
>>> several
>>> computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and  
>>> synchronise
>>> them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing,  
>>> never
>>> used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to
>>> synchronise together videos.
>>>
>>> Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?
>>
>> yes.
>> we used a dual-head machine (actually it was a quad-head, so we had
>> plenty of space for editing...) running a single gemwin covering both
>> screens and 2 [pix_film]s that were controlled by the same counter.
>>
>> since Gem allows you frame-accurate access, the 2 videos were in  
>> perfect
>> synch.
>
> but we might need up to 6 to 8 video outputs, thats too much for the
> same machine. Thats why I thought about having a machine per video
> output connected to a LAN and synchronised via OSC.

I've done it often, the basic principle for keeping the LAN machines  
in constant frame sync, allowing scrubbing etc, is each projector has  
a slave patch that uses [pix_film] to play by frame number rather  
auto, and receives those frame numbers (via [netreceive]) from a  
master patch which has a metro counting the frames and which plays  
any sound required. Works very cleanly and doesn't put much data  
through the network. Two [pix_film] Gem-chains in each slave will  
give you X-fades etc.


I could post the set of patches which add quite a bit more  
functionality than that if you like, I've built up a collection over  
several projects.


simon



___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[marius schebella]

I am also working on a project like this (with thomas grill, who solved 
many problems before I even thought of them...). in principle 
synchronisation works fine.
now your may ask why do other people pay so much money for expensive 
hardware?
the problem lies in details: first resolution: for some cases you want 
to go with the highest available resolution 1080p (and in the future 
even more), and suddenly you will see small appearance of jitter, mostly 
because quicktime is different inside a quicktime player and outside 
quicktime, also because in most cases you have to convert color formats.
then, compensating a drift without losing frames is very tricky.
from my experience so far, Pd solutions only work up to 720p and only if 
you use a drift compensating algorithm - sending a bang for every frame 
over the network always causes jitter (although you may not notice).
It is no big effort to try a pd version and see if you are happy with it.
marius.

altern wrote:
> hi
> 
> I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who 
> works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of 
> solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive equipment 
> like special DVD players.
> 
> I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have several 
> computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and synchronise 
> them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing, never 
> used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to 
> synchronise together videos.
> 
> Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?
> 
> thanks!
> 
> enrike
> 
> ___
> PD-list@iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> 


___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[B. Bogart]

Check out Jaromil's ivysync, which uses those mpeg decoder cards for
synced output. I think you can do 4 outputs from the same machine, but
I'm not sure if that is a software limit, or just the number of slots
available for those cards. Jaromil did mention something about a network
sync feature also.

As far as I know these decoders are all only 640x480, I imagine the ones
working on linux certainly are.

.b.

marius schebella wrote:
> I am also working on a project like this (with thomas grill, who solved 
> many problems before I even thought of them...). in principle 
> synchronisation works fine.
> now your may ask why do other people pay so much money for expensive 
> hardware?
> the problem lies in details: first resolution: for some cases you want 
> to go with the highest available resolution 1080p (and in the future 
> even more), and suddenly you will see small appearance of jitter, mostly 
> because quicktime is different inside a quicktime player and outside 
> quicktime, also because in most cases you have to convert color formats.
> then, compensating a drift without losing frames is very tricky.
> from my experience so far, Pd solutions only work up to 720p and only if 
> you use a drift compensating algorithm - sending a bang for every frame 
> over the network always causes jitter (although you may not notice).
> It is no big effort to try a pd version and see if you are happy with it.
> marius.
> 
> altern wrote:
>> hi
>>
>> I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who 
>> works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of 
>> solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive equipment 
>> like special DVD players.
>>
>> I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have several 
>> computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and synchronise 
>> them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing, never 
>> used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to 
>> synchronise together videos.
>>
>> Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?
>>
>> thanks!
>>
>> enrike
>>
>> ___
>> PD-list@iem.at mailing list
>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
>> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>>
> 
> 
> ___
> PD-list@iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> 


___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[enrique franco]

Hi Simon,

Where Can we see the video patches you talk about? I´m very interested.

Thanks,

Enrique

On 25 Feb 2008, at 10:32 PM, altern wrote:

>
>>> I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who
>>> works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of
>>> solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive
>>> equipment
>>> like special DVD players.
>>>
>>> I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have
>>> several
>>> computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and
>>> synchronise
>>> them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing,
>>> never
>>> used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to
>>> synchronise together videos.
>>>
>>> Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?
>>
>> yes.
>> we used a dual-head machine (actually it was a quad-head, so we had
>> plenty of space for editing...) running a single gemwin covering both
>> screens and 2 [pix_film]s that were controlled by the same counter.
>>
>> since Gem allows you frame-accurate access, the 2 videos were in
>> perfect
>> synch.
>
> but we might need up to 6 to 8 video outputs, thats too much for the
> same machine. Thats why I thought about having a machine per video
> output connected to a LAN and synchronised via OSC.

I've done it often, the basic principle for keeping the LAN machines
in constant frame sync, allowing scrubbing etc, is each projector has
a slave patch that uses [pix_film] to play by frame number rather
auto, and receives those frame numbers (via [netreceive]) from a
master patch which has a metro counting the frames and which plays
any sound required. Works very cleanly and doesn't put much data
through the network. Two [pix_film] Gem-chains in each slave will
give you X-fades etc.


I could post the set of patches which add quite a bit more
functionality than that if you like, I've built up a collection over
several projects.


simon

-- 
Enrique Franco
Telefono/Phone: +572 5552334 ext 388
Webpage: http://richie.idc.ul.ie/~enrique/
http://www.iua.upf.es/~ffranco/pfm.htm
___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[altern]

thanks all for the feedback about this issue. now i have a better 
overview of what I might be dealing with.

enrike

marius schebella(e)k dio:
> I am also working on a project like this (with thomas grill, who solved 
> many problems before I even thought of them...). in principle 
> synchronisation works fine.
> now your may ask why do other people pay so much money for expensive 
> hardware?
> the problem lies in details: first resolution: for some cases you want 
> to go with the highest available resolution 1080p (and in the future 
> even more), and suddenly you will see small appearance of jitter, mostly 
> because quicktime is different inside a quicktime player and outside 
> quicktime, also because in most cases you have to convert color formats.
> then, compensating a drift without losing frames is very tricky.
> from my experience so far, Pd solutions only work up to 720p and only if 
> you use a drift compensating algorithm - sending a bang for every frame 
> over the network always causes jitter (although you may not notice).
> It is no big effort to try a pd version and see if you are happy with it.
> marius.
> 
> altern wrote:
>> hi
>>
>> I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who 
>> works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of 
>> solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive equipment 
>> like special DVD players.
>>
>> I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have several 
>> computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and synchronise 
>> them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing, never 
>> used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to 
>> synchronise together videos.
>>
>> Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?
>>
>> thanks!
>>
>> enrike
>>
>> ___
>> PD-list@iem.at mailing list
>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
>> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>>
> 
> 


___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[simon wise]

On 26 Feb 2008, at 6:15 AM, enrique franco wrote:

> Hi Simon,
>
> Where Can we see the video patches you talk about? I´m very  
> interested.

I'm very busy till the weekend, I'll gather them up and post them  
after that. I'll give a URL to the list when I've done it.

and yes - it isn't a perfect solution, there will be some jitter due  
to the LAN so it isn't as nice as proper time syncing would be, but  
since the frame-rate is usually 40ms that jitter is impossible to  
notice in almost all circumstances, and since actual frame-numbers  
are sent then there is no slippage or getting out of sync over time.  
I've used it with 5-projector wide images with fast movement across  
them.

The biggest challenge is always getting the codec right for the  
circumstances, issues like whether the original was interlaced can be  
tricky. I find the results always better than DVDs which where often  
the more expensive alternative.

The system has been especially useful to me when I've needed to  
present a sequence with different formats, possibly with still  
images, when I've wanted to be able to cue things manually, and when  
lots of keystoning or colour correction was needed to line things up.


simon


___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[Jaime Oliver]

hi ben,
what mpeg decoder cards with 4 outputs from the same machine are you
refering to? I will need to get something like that for an installation, but
don't really know much about it.

best,

J

On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 8:47 AM, B. Bogart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Check out Jaromil's ivysync, which uses those mpeg decoder cards for
> synced output. I think you can do 4 outputs from the same machine, but
> I'm not sure if that is a software limit, or just the number of slots
> available for those cards. Jaromil did mention something about a network
> sync feature also.
>
> As far as I know these decoders are all only 640x480, I imagine the ones
> working on linux certainly are.
>
> .b.
>
> marius schebella wrote:
> > I am also working on a project like this (with thomas grill, who solved
> > many problems before I even thought of them...). in principle
> > synchronisation works fine.
> > now your may ask why do other people pay so much money for expensive
> > hardware?
> > the problem lies in details: first resolution: for some cases you want
> > to go with the highest available resolution 1080p (and in the future
> > even more), and suddenly you will see small appearance of jitter, mostly
> > because quicktime is different inside a quicktime player and outside
> > quicktime, also because in most cases you have to convert color formats.
> > then, compensating a drift without losing frames is very tricky.
> > from my experience so far, Pd solutions only work up to 720p and only if
> > you use a drift compensating algorithm - sending a bang for every frame
> > over the network always causes jitter (although you may not notice).
> > It is no big effort to try a pd version and see if you are happy with
> it.
> > marius.
> >
> > altern wrote:
> >> hi
> >>
> >> I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who
> >> works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of
> >> solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive equipment
> >> like special DVD players.
> >>
> >> I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have several
> >> computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and synchronise
> >> them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing, never
> >> used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to
> >> synchronise together videos.
> >>
> >> Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?
> >>
> >> thanks!
> >>
> >> enrike
> >>
> >> ___
> >> PD-list@iem.at mailing list
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > PD-list@iem.at mailing list
> > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> >
>
>
> ___
> PD-list@iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>



-- 
Jaime E Oliver LR

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.realidadvisual.org/jaimeoliver
www-crca.ucsd.edu/
www.realidadvisual.org

9168 Regents Rd. Apt. G
La Jolla, CA 92037
USA
___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[_ Discos Invisibles]

How about GEM working the sync on a extended screen and a Matrox TripleHead2Go. 
It gives you three displays + your laptop screen (would not give you an extra 
on a desktop). Is external so you don't need a slot on your computer and is 
very cheap (around $300). This is the most basic solution, is this what you 
need?
Saludos.

N/


  - Original Message - 
  From: Jaime Oliver 
  To: B. Bogart 
  Cc: the PureData - mailinglist ; marius schebella 
  Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 9:40 PM
  Subject: Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs


  hi ben,


  what mpeg decoder cards with 4 outputs from the same machine are you refering 
to? I will need to get something like that for an installation, but don't 
really know much about it.


  best,


  J


  On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 8:47 AM, B. Bogart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Check out Jaromil's ivysync, which uses those mpeg decoder cards for
synced output. I think you can do 4 outputs from the same machine, but
I'm not sure if that is a software limit, or just the number of slots
available for those cards. Jaromil did mention something about a network
sync feature also.

As far as I know these decoders are all only 640x480, I imagine the ones
working on linux certainly are.

.b.


marius schebella wrote:
> I am also working on a project like this (with thomas grill, who solved
> many problems before I even thought of them...). in principle
> synchronisation works fine.
> now your may ask why do other people pay so much money for expensive
> hardware?
> the problem lies in details: first resolution: for some cases you want
> to go with the highest available resolution 1080p (and in the future
> even more), and suddenly you will see small appearance of jitter, mostly
> because quicktime is different inside a quicktime player and outside
> quicktime, also because in most cases you have to convert color formats.
> then, compensating a drift without losing frames is very tricky.
> from my experience so far, Pd solutions only work up to 720p and only if
> you use a drift compensating algorithm - sending a bang for every frame
> over the network always causes jitter (although you may not notice).
> It is no big effort to try a pd version and see if you are happy with it.
> marius.
>
> altern wrote:
>> hi
>>
>> I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who
>> works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of
>> solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive equipment
>> like special DVD players.
>>
>> I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have several
>> computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and synchronise
>> them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing, never
>> used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to
>> synchronise together videos.
>>
>> Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?
>>
>> thanks!
>>
>> enrike
>>
>> ___
>> PD-list@iem.at mailing list
>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>>
>
>
> ___
> PD-list@iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>


___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list




  -- 
  Jaime E Oliver LR

  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  www.realidadvisual.org/jaimeoliver
  www-crca.ucsd.edu/
  www.realidadvisual.org

  9168 Regents Rd. Apt. G
  La Jolla, CA 92037
  USA 


--


  ___
  PD-list@iem.at mailing list
  UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list



--


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
  Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1297 - Release Date: 2/25/2008 
9:22 AM
___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] synchronised video outputs

[B. Bogart]

Check out the project page:

http://sync.dyne.org/?info=description

looks like ivyTV cards are supported.

.b.



Jaime Oliver wrote:
> hi ben,
> 
> what mpeg decoder cards with 4 outputs from the same machine are you
> refering to? I will need to get something like that for an installation,
> but don't really know much about it.
> 
> best,
> 
> J
> 
> On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 8:47 AM, B. Bogart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
> 
> Check out Jaromil's ivysync, which uses those mpeg decoder cards for
> synced output. I think you can do 4 outputs from the same machine, but
> I'm not sure if that is a software limit, or just the number of slots
> available for those cards. Jaromil did mention something about a network
> sync feature also.
> 
> As far as I know these decoders are all only 640x480, I imagine the ones
> working on linux certainly are.
> 
> .b.
> 
> marius schebella wrote:
> > I am also working on a project like this (with thomas grill, who
> solved
> > many problems before I even thought of them...). in principle
> > synchronisation works fine.
> > now your may ask why do other people pay so much money for expensive
> > hardware?
> > the problem lies in details: first resolution: for some cases you want
> > to go with the highest available resolution 1080p (and in the future
> > even more), and suddenly you will see small appearance of jitter,
> mostly
> > because quicktime is different inside a quicktime player and outside
> > quicktime, also because in most cases you have to convert color
> formats.
> > then, compensating a drift without losing frames is very tricky.
> > from my experience so far, Pd solutions only work up to 720p and
> only if
> > you use a drift compensating algorithm - sending a bang for every
> frame
> > over the network always causes jitter (although you may not notice).
> > It is no big effort to try a pd version and see if you are happy
> with it.
> > marius.
> >
> > altern wrote:
> >> hi
> >>
> >> I need to have several video outputs that run in sync. A friend who
> >> works in a art exhibition space told me there would be couple of
> >> solutions for this but both involve buying pretty expensive equipment
> >> like special DVD players.
> >>
> >> I thought then that a solution for this issue could be to have
> several
> >> computers on a local network playing video (with GEM) and synchronise
> >> them via OSC. But I dont have any experience doing such a thing,
> never
> >> used OSC for anything similar. Also I dont have a clue about how to
> >> synchronise together videos.
> >>
> >> Has anyone done anything similar? any experiences to share?
> >>
> >> thanks!
> >>
> >> enrike
> >>
> >> ___
> >> PD-list@iem.at  mailing list
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > PD-list@iem.at  mailing list
> > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> >
> 
> 
> ___
> PD-list@iem.at  mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jaime E Oliver LR
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> www.realidadvisual.org/jaimeoliver
> 
> www-crca.ucsd.edu/ 
> www.realidadvisual.org 
> 
> 9168 Regents Rd. Apt. G
> La Jolla, CA 92037
> USA


___
PD-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list