Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Lucas Cordiviola]

I'm not insisting, but problematic/conflicting externals once detected can be 
excluded from the “All” package.
But it's just an idea.


Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

> To: pd-list@lists.iem.at
> From: colet.patr...@free.fr
> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 20:58:08 +0200
> Subject: Re: [PD] deken install user experience
> 
> 
> 
> Le 09/06/2016 à 20:16, Lucas Cordiviola a écrit :
> >
> > One simple solution will be to have one zip containing all externals 
> > (updated monthly?) this will be the most simple and interesting for 
> > new users.
> 
> I don't know in this case how to avoid conflicts, sometimes I have to 
> remove mrpeach from path for having other externals to work, don't ask 
> me why because I don't know.
> 
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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[patrice colet]

Le 09/06/2016 à 20:16, Lucas Cordiviola a écrit :


One simple solution will be to have one zip containing all externals 
(updated monthly?) this will be the most simple and interesting for 
new users.


I don't know in this case how to avoid conflicts, sometimes I have to 
remove mrpeach from path for having other externals to work, don't ask 
me why because I don't know.


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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Lucas Cordiviola]

  > Having deken proposing solutions for resolving missing patch   > 
dependencies looks very interesting, it should save a lot of time to   > users 
that want to collaborate on same patches from different machines.


One simple solution will be to have one zip containing all externals (updated 
monthly?) this will be the most simple and interesting for new users.
This will bring back the benefits of “extended”.
By benefits I mean that as a student you are exposed to the work of all 
externals devs, it`s there, you open the browser and open zexy, cyclone, ggee, 
etc. 
With Vanilla you don't even know that there is a library of externals called 
mpreach.



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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Lucas Cordiviola]

> Sorry if I missed this, but what is the point of displaying> incompatible 
> (wrong arch, wrong platform) Deken packages? What would be> harmed if they'd 
> be hidden completely? I fail to see the advantage of> having the possibility 
> of downloading a package of wrong arch/platform.
--like: preparing your patch for offline use on multiple archs, which 
you--currently don't have access to.
Totally,
I distribute my patches with all needed externals included, for all platforms, 
this way the user ONLY have to install pd and its ready to listen. He/she just 
open the patch and it works, no need to deken or -path or whatever, it just 
work.
I think its Ok that other platforms zips are grayed out.


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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Dan Wilcox]

Before the discussion on deken installing libraries for you goes super far, we 
talked about this curing Chris’ initial deken development and, regarding, 
auto-magically downloading dependencies:

1. Pd developer time is currently limited (Chris & IOhannes were basically 
spitballing at that point), so the focus instead was put more on getting the 
basics working, especially in binary lib upload, search, & install.

2. Auto-magic dependency was put into the “nice to have, but possibly a lot of 
work to get right” pile as opposed to “must have" pile. If it turns out to be 
trivial, then by all means someone can propose some code and we can try it out 
(deken has it’s own GitHub repo after all).

3. There is no easy way around the pd-extended kitchen sink -> pd vanilla 
barebones + libs transition, [declare] is the preferred way forward in that 
regard. At least I thought that was agreed upon...

IMO the much bigger issue right now is that we don’t have full coverage of 
built external deken packages for all the main extended libraries for all 
platforms yet. If we (I am!) are worried about priority with limited resources, 
I feel this is much more important right now. We need a big push of people 
essentially updating these main libs to the pd-lib-builder makefile and then 
coordinating people on various platforms to build said libs and upload deken 
packages. The makefile can do that as a makefile target, so it’s relatively 
easy. After all, how can deken suggest a lib to install when there aren’t that 
many libs in deken to being with?

One of the great things about deken is that it helps decentralize the kitchen 
sink. Now, we need everyone to grab a utensil and start scrubbing :)


Dan Wilcox
@danomatika 
danomatika.com 
robotcowboy.com 
> On Jun 9, 2016, at 4:00 AM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> 
> From: Max >
> Subject: Re: [PD] deken install user experience
> Date: June 9, 2016 at 3:00:27 AM MDT
> To: Roman Haefeli >, 
> pd-list@lists.iem.at 
> 
> 
> On 2016년 06월 09일 17:33, Roman Haefeli wrote:
>> In my ideal world, I write a Pd project, make sure it properly declares
>> what it needs and then people who want to run my project find a list in
>> the documentation with the required externals (with no further
>> explanation how to do that and where to install). After installing the
>> externals from the list, my pd project runs on their box and is able to
>> successfully load the libraries. We're not there yet, see above.
> 
> Or even better:
> the receipient opens the file, Pd realizes that it depends on not
> installed libraries, prompts "should Pd install the missing libraries x,
> y and z?" then she/he clicks yes or abort.

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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Dan Wilcox]

I agree with Hans.

My 2 cents: I kind of like ~/pd-externals and use it for both deken and my own 
git clones of various abstraction libs, etc. I don;t mind it being “in the way” 
as I routinely work from it on my own libs.

IMO there should be a deken path setting in the Path dialog with 
~/.local/lib/pd/extra as default. Then I could go in, change the path to 
~/pd-externals and it uses that from then on, until I change it.

I don’t think deken should do any sort of auto-trickery at all, but have a 
plain default location you can change that doesn’t require choosing a directory 
each time you install something. Another option could be to create a deken 
settings dialog which could be launched from a button in the deken GUI proper. 
This way, we’d get a settings location without having to add anything directly 
to the pdsettings. There could be a similar .dekensettings file along side that 
simply stores the download path for now, which could be expanded if we need 
other info. I’d be willing to mock that up if needed.

In any case, I’m glad to see people weighing in on deken and helping to improve 
it. Sorry all of this feedback didn’t come earlier, before the 0.47 release and 
when you had to manually install it, but such is life.


Dan Wilcox
@danomatika 
danomatika.com 
robotcowboy.com 
> On Jun 9, 2016, at 2:33 AM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> 
> Another thing, that I feel was a crucial part in the reason for having
> so many iterations, is that people complained about Pd creating a
> directory in the user's home without asking (~/pd-externals). While I
> understand that concern, the reason to address this just vanished with
> the switch to ~/.local/lib/pd/extra. pd-externals was annoying, but I
> doubt anybody would ever complain about Pd creating
> ~/.local/lib/pd/extra, so ___pplleeaazzee__ let's  Deken do its thing
> and create this directory. It'll avoid so much unnecessary pain.
> 
> Long story short, I'm pretty much with Hans in this regard. Let's Deken
> automatically download to a sensible directory.

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Re: [PD] Pd-extended appearance to Pd vanilla 0.46-7

[oscar santis]

Excuse me, I think I misspoke. I work with deken without problems. I was
talking about the interface work area. I want the same same colors for
cords, messages, objects, etc. There's a way using Tcl/tk?
Thanks IOhannes and Luca

Óscar Santis
escultor, pintor, músico ruidista
http://www.oscarsantis.com
+56 9 75802965
El 09/06/2016 02:51,  escribió:

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> Today's Topics:
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>1. Re: PdCon16 -- 5th International Puredata Convention @ NYU
>   (Chris McCormick)
>2. Re: PdCon16 -- 5th International Puredata Convention @ NYU
>   (Pagano, Patrick)
>3. Re: PdCon16 -- 5th International Puredata Convention @ NYU
>   (Ivica Bukvic)
>4. Re: Pd-extended appearance to Pd vanilla 0.46-7 (Lucas Cordiviola)
>5. Re: deken install user experience (patrice colet)
>6. Re: Pd-extended appearance to Pd vanilla 0.46-7
>   (IOhannes m zmoelnig)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:31:02 +0800
> From: Chris McCormick 
> To: Jaime Oliver , Pd-list
> 
> Subject: Re: [PD] PdCon16 -- 5th International Puredata Convention @
> NYU
> Message-ID: <5758b8c6.4060...@mccormick.cx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 05/06/16 14:23, Jaime Oliver wrote:
> > We’re assembling a team at NYU’s Waverly Labs to host PdCon
>
> Wow, fantastic!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris.
>
> --
> http://mccormick.cx/
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 00:33:18 +
> From: "Pagano, Patrick" 
> To: Chris McCormick , Jaime Oliver
> , Pd-list 
> Subject: Re: [PD] PdCon16 -- 5th International Puredata Convention @
> NYU
> Message-ID: <1465432396010.96...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> I am moving to Stamford for a job at Stamford this fall so i may actually
> be able to attend!
>
> awesome!
>
>
> Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
> Audio and Projection Design Faculty
> Digital Worlds Institute
> University of Florida, USA
> (352)294-2020
>
> 
> From: Pd-list  on behalf of Chris McCormick <
> ch...@mccormick.cx>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 8:31 PM
> To: Jaime Oliver; Pd-list
> Subject: Re: [PD] PdCon16 -- 5th International Puredata Convention @ NYU
>
> On 05/06/16 14:23, Jaime Oliver wrote:
> > We’re assembling a team at NYU’s Waverly Labs to host PdCon
>
> Wow, fantastic!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris.
>
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> http://mccormick.cx/
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> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 23:27:03 -0400
> From: Ivica Bukvic 
> To: Jaime E Oliver 
> Cc: Pd-list 
> Subject: Re: [PD] PdCon16 -- 5th International Puredata Convention @
> NYU
> Message-ID:
> 

Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Chris McCormick]

On 09/06/16 16:33, Roman Haefeli wrote:

Sorry if I missed this, but what is the point of displaying
incompatible (wrong arch, wrong platform) Deken packages? What would be
harmed if they'd be hidden completely? I fail to see the advantage of
having the possibility of downloading a package of wrong arch/platform.


Almost always true: the software is dumber than the person using it.

omgskynet,

Chris.

--
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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Roman Haefeli]

On Thu, 2016-06-09 at 14:14 +0200, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> On 2016-06-09 10:33, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> > 
> > Sorry if I missed this, but what is the point of displaying
> > incompatible (wrong arch, wrong platform) Deken packages? What
> > would be
> > harmed if they'd be hidden completely? I fail to see the advantage
> > of
> > having the possibility of downloading a package of wrong
> > arch/platform.
> like: preparing your patch for offline use on multiple archs, which
> you
> currently don't have access to.
> 
> or: checking whether the library exists at all, and if I could nag
> its
> osx maintainer to give me w32 binaries.
> 

Right. Both makes sense to me.

Roman

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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 2016-06-09 10:33, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> Just to chime in about unzipping-in-Windows aspect, from what I can
> tell that would smoothen the Deken experience for Windows users _a
> lot_.

well, test it
 https://github.com/pure-data/deken/tree/w32-unzip

amd if it works, chances are high that the it will soon be available for
public consumation.

fgamsdr
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 2016-06-09 10:33, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> Sorry if I missed this, but what is the point of displaying
> incompatible (wrong arch, wrong platform) Deken packages? What would be
> harmed if they'd be hidden completely? I fail to see the advantage of
> having the possibility of downloading a package of wrong arch/platform.

like: preparing your patch for offline use on multiple archs, which you
currently don't have access to.

or: checking whether the library exists at all, and if I could nag its
osx maintainer to give me w32 binaries.


fgmsdr
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 2016-06-09 10:58, cyrille henry wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 09/06/2016 10:33, Roman Haefeli a écrit :
> 
>> In my ideal world, I write a Pd project, make sure it properly declares
>> what it needs and then people who want to run my project find a list in
>> the documentation with the required externals
> 
> in an other ideal world, [declare] notice that the declared lib is not
> installed, so it ask if deken should install it...

so because cyrille was faster than max, i'm answering this: i think it
should be fairly simple to implement that functionality as a "loader".

since Pd-0.47, loaders can differentiate whether they should search for
a library in a given directory, or "wherever they please" (this is a
last ressort, after all the search-paths have been walked).
and this would be the perfect time to fire up deken, and prefill it with
the search term (so the user only needs to hit "search").

the drawbacks are, that the loader cannot really distinguish whether Pd
tried to load a library ("zexy") or an objectclass ("demultiplex"), and
deken is really only good at finding libraries.

it also might get triggered multiple times (e.g. because my patch is
full of unavailable [nop]s)


therefore i don't think it would be a good idea to
- make this used by default (for nuisance reasons)
- automatically start the search (for privacy reasons)



mnfgasdr
IOhannes





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Re: [PD] PdCon16 -- 5th International Puredata Convention @ NYU

[Ricardo Brazileiro]

Jaime,

It sounds great.
I'd love to take part of PdCon16

cheers from brazil,

rbrz

Em qui, 9 de jun de 2016 00:30, Ivica Bukvic  escreveu:

> Very cool!
>
> --
> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
> Associate Professor
> Computer Music
> ICAT Senior Fellow
> Director -- DISIS, L2Ork
> Virginia Tech
> School of Performing Arts – 0141
> Blacksburg, VA 24061
> (540) 231-6139
> i...@vt.edu
> www.performingarts.vt.edu
> disis.icat.vt.edu
> l2ork.icat.vt.edu
> ico.bukvic.net
> On Jun 5, 2016 2:24 AM, "Jaime Oliver"  wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> If we take Miller Puckette's 1996 publication* as the beginning of Pd,
>> then 2016 marks its 20th anniversary. To celebrate this birthday with
>> Miller and the Pd Community we’d like to organize the 5th Pure Data
>> Convention in New York City on November 17-20, 2016.
>>
>> There are still a lot of details that we’re working out and a proper call
>> will follow soon, but in the meantime, we want everyone to save the dates
>> and include the convention in your travel plans as well as to prepare
>> proposals for papers, workshops, and concerts.
>>
>> We’re assembling a team at NYU’s Waverly Labs to host PdCon in the Music
>> Department @ GSAS, with the support of the Washington Square Contemporary
>> Music Society and New Blankets, and in coordination with local institutions
>> like the Stevens Institute of Technology.
>>
>> Looking forward to seeing you in New York.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>> Jaime Oliver
>>
>>
>> * Puckette, Miller. "Pure Data: another integrated computer music
>>  environment." Proceedings of the Second Intercollege Computer Music
>>  Concerts (1996): 37-41.
>>
>>
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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Max]

ok, cyrille was 2 minutes faster with the idea. Chapeau.


On 2016년 06월 09일 17:58, cyrille henry wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 09/06/2016 10:33, Roman Haefeli a écrit :
> 
>> In my ideal world, I write a Pd project, make sure it properly declares
>> what it needs and then people who want to run my project find a list in
>> the documentation with the required externals
> 
> in an other ideal world, [declare] notice that the declared lib is not
> installed, so it ask if deken should install it...
> 
> cheers
> c
> 
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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Max]

On 2016년 06월 09일 17:33, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> In my ideal world, I write a Pd project, make sure it properly declares
> what it needs and then people who want to run my project find a list in
> the documentation with the required externals (with no further
> explanation how to do that and where to install). After installing the
> externals from the list, my pd project runs on their box and is able to
> successfully load the libraries. We're not there yet, see above.

Or even better:
the receipient opens the file, Pd realizes that it depends on not
installed libraries, prompts "should Pd install the missing libraries x,
y and z?" then she/he clicks yes or abort.

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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[cyrille henry]

Le 09/06/2016 10:33, Roman Haefeli a écrit :


In my ideal world, I write a Pd project, make sure it properly declares
what it needs and then people who want to run my project find a list in
the documentation with the required externals


in an other ideal world, [declare] notice that the declared lib is not 
installed, so it ask if deken should install it...

cheers
c

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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Roman Haefeli]

On Thu, 2016-06-09 at 10:06 +0200, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> On 2016-06-08 20:07, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> > 
> > i still believe that a collapsed subtree view would be ok.
> but that's not to say that i would be opposed to totally hiding
> incompatible packages (as long as you can easily unhide them).


I'm not opposed to either way, but why do you insist on the ability to
unhide them?

Roman

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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[Roman Haefeli]

On Thu, 2016-06-09 at 10:01 +0200, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> On 2016-06-09 08:19, patrice colet wrote:
> > 
> > one is about adding a lib and/or a path entry in PureData
> > preferences
> afaict there is agreement that dependencies should be [declare]d in
> the
> patch, rather than system-wide.
> this makes the ability to automatically add libs/paths to the
> preferences a very low priority.

+1

Roman

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Re: [PD] deken install user experience

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 2016-06-08 20:07, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> i still believe that a collapsed subtree view would be ok.

but that's not to say that i would be opposed to totally hiding
incompatible packages (as long as you can easily unhide them).

fgmsadr
IOhannes



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