Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple

[Brad Garton]

What I dislike about Apple's current strategy is their ill-concealed
attempt to make _everything_ go through the App Store.  I *loved* Apple's
hardware, I *loved* the original Mach heritage, I *loved* the integration
of hardware and software.  I often write apps for individuals, though (like
for my mom), and it just SUCKS GIANT EGGS that the only way I have to
distribute them to users (like my mom) is to go through the annoying App
Store dance.  Why can't I upload the app to my web site?  People (like my
mom!) can choose if they want to run it, and..

Oh, never mind.  Apple obviously no longer cares about developers like me.
In the meantime, I'm discovering things like WSL2 (Windows Subsystem for
Linux), which is pretty amazing.

brad

PS:  Good luck to Epic games!


On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 8:36 PM Darren Kelly  wrote:

>
>
> On 19 Sep 2020, at 8:36 pm, João Pais  wrote:
>
> I think no one should buy apple anyway …
>
>
> Irrelevant and inappropriate.
>
>
> … but many people do …
>
>
> I must be one of the people who have done what you think nobody should do,
> and I am extremely happy that I did - and have done for a very long time -
> because many people buy Apple, with good reason, not just for use for PD.
>
> (And yes, I have also used Linux a lot, and have suffered MS Windows too.)
>
> Many people also buy iPhones that integrate with their other Apple devices.
>
> Many people enjoy OTHER software that only runs on Apple, not Linux or
> Windows.
>
> Many people are happy to pay for it, too, if it saves them time and helps
> them earn money.
>
>
> … and my problem is how to get to them ..
>
>
> Then please focus on that instead of making sweeping remarks about
> what you think other perfectly intelligent professionals should do.
>
> Darren Kelly, Webel IT (avowed Apple victim)
> —
> Webel IT Australia, "The Elements of the Web"
> Specialists in UML and Model-Based Systems Engineering with SysML
> Dr Darren R C Kelly, BSc, PhD
> Phone: +61 (2) 9386 0090
> Mobile/cell: 0405 029 008
> Post: PO Box 1816, Bondi Junction, NSW 1355, Australia
> Web: https://www.webel.com.au
>
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Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple

[Darren Kelly]

> On 19 Sep 2020, at 8:36 pm, João Pais  wrote:
> 
> I think no one should buy apple anyway …

Irrelevant and inappropriate.


> … but many people do …

I must be one of the people who have done what you think nobody should do,
and I am extremely happy that I did - and have done for a very long time -
because many people buy Apple, with good reason, not just for use for PD.

(And yes, I have also used Linux a lot, and have suffered MS Windows too.)

Many people also buy iPhones that integrate with their other Apple devices.

Many people enjoy OTHER software that only runs on Apple, not Linux or Windows.

Many people are happy to pay for it, too, if it saves them time and helps them 
earn money.


> … and my problem is how to get to them ..


Then please focus on that instead of making sweeping remarks about 
what you think other perfectly intelligent professionals should do.

Darren Kelly, Webel IT (avowed Apple victim)
— 
Webel IT Australia, "The Elements of the Web" 
Specialists in UML and Model-Based Systems Engineering with SysML
Dr Darren R C Kelly, BSc, PhD
Phone: +61 (2) 9386 0090
Mobile/cell: 0405 029 008
Post: PO Box 1816, Bondi Junction, NSW 1355, Australia
Web: https://www.webel.com.au 

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Re: [PD] problem with correct numbers in pd double precision

[hans w. koch]

just to report another weirdness:
if i 
1. write those big numbers  (e.g. 8278095582780955) with [text set] to a [text 
define ] with [makefilename %.0f] (i used this to avoid unnecessary decimal 
points)
2. then write the textfile to disk as .txt
3. read it in again
the symbols are automatically converted to exponential notation (8.2781e+15) 
inside the [text]/textfile, BUT retain their full precision!

but in order for this to work, they have to be written to the [text] as symbols 
with [makefilename %.0f] first.

weird, ain´t it?

hans



> Am 19.09.2020 um 10:49 schrieb hans w. koch :
> 
> arrghhh…sometimes live can be so easy :-)
> 
> cheers 
> hans
> 
>> Am 19.09.2020 um 10:45 schrieb Lucas Cordiviola :
>> 
>> I think you can convert symbol back to float just using [f ].
>> 
>> [123123123(
>> |
>> [makefilename %f]
>> |
>> [t a 0]
>> | |
>> [text set foo]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> [0(
>> |
>> [text get foo]
>> |
>> [f ]
>> |
>> [print]
>> 
>> 
>> :)
>> 
>> Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
>> 
>> On 9/19/2020 4:16 AM, hans w. koch wrote:
>>> thanks lucas,
>>> 
>>> transitioning numbers over to symbolland could solve my problem, 
>>> interesting to know.
>>> 
>>> i need to store some of the big numbers in a textfile and there i get the 
>>> same problems with representation.
>>> if i recall them later, they´ve lost their precision.
>>> so i can make the transition back from symboldland with a bit of fudi 
>>> objects voodoo and be good :-)
>>> 
>>> what i use is this:
>>> [makefilename %f]
>>> |
>>> [list trim symbol]
>>> |
>>> [fudiformat -u]
>>> |
>>> [fudiparse]
>>> 
>>> and have my number back from symbol.
>>> 
>>> best
>>> hans
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 Am 19.09.2020 um 05:32 schrieb Lucas Cordiviola :
 
 If you want to print the numbers nicely to the console add [makefilename 
 %f] :
 
 [t b f]
  |
  [makefilename %f]
  |
  [print count]
 
 
 Be aware of https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/812
 
 :)
 
 Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
 
 On 9/18/2020 6:12 PM, hans w. koch wrote:
> hello,
> 
> its probably due to my lack of understanding the correct number 
> representations, but here it goes anyway:
> 
> i compiled pd 51-2 double precision for mac 10.14.6
> with this version i was hoping to do some maths on big numbers.
> but already an increment of 1 on some moderatly big number gives me 
> problems of representation.
> 
> i made a simple version of the problem as a patch.
> to verify you have a working version of pd double, it contains a simple 
> test.
> and then an iterative addition +1 starting from 99.
> i get this:
> count: 99
> count: 1e+06
> count: 1e+06
> count: 1e+06
> count: 1e+06
> count: 1e+06
> count: 1.0e+06
> count: 1.1e+06
> count: 1.1e+06
> count: 1.1e+06
> 
> the algorith terminates succesfully by a [select] after 10 iterations, 
> but the results don´t show what i expect.
> this to me indicates, that the internal numbers are correct, but they 
> don´t “surface” as such.
> 
> i would be grateful for any pointers and possible workarounds, as the 
> numbers i hope to be dealing with are potentially orders of magnitude 
> higher.
> 
> thanks hans
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple

[jayrope]

Hi Joao, maybe don't worry about making a Mac version at all, if it
seems too far off your track.

Different fractions of users have a long time dispute over what OS etc.
to use. I can only recommend not to get to deep in it and rather stick
to what you got. The discussion doesn't seem to get more fruitful over
the last two decades... and especially maybe, because ongoing
audio-non-related updates to operating systems, other software and
hardware will render any temporary positive outcome of such discussion
useless by the next or overnext update.

Putting those two insights together i can tell you, that i would
personally would very much appreciate a Mac version not just reaching
back to 10.13.
Pure Data and Reaper are both positive examples for how to do this right:
Mac softwares available from 10.5 upwards and in 32bit and 64bit enable
your best friends, the udpate resistant users to continue to work on
without unnecessary updates and on machines, which are working for at
least decades.

NOT catering to the update craze as a dev is probably best practice
today, if you don't want to support paying for same functionality over,
and over, and over again. Just say no to Apple's dev policies. :D

My two Euro cents and good luck,

jrp

P.S.: Maybe the Reaper devs have good advice on Mac versions? They came
from Windows originally, and the software is available to all degrees of
users outside the apple store, which is great.

On 09/19/20 13:10, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2020 12:36:58 +0200
> From: João Pais 
> To: Josh Moore 
> Cc: "pd-list@lists.iem.at" 
> Subject: Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> that's unfortunately not a practical solution either, to buy more hardware.
> the software already ran on laptops, and several people preferred an app
> (which is an even worse minefield for a developer).
> 
> I think no one should buy apple anyway, but many people do, and my problem
> is how to get to them.

-- 
jayrope
+++
jayrope.com
aircushionfinish.com
kliklak.net



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Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple

[Josh Moore]

Then like I said, you want to play with Apple you must play with their
rules. Pay the hundred bucks and you can go past all those extra steps,
don't and you're stuck doing the work around which will eventually be
blocked regardless. They aren't budging on it. You get to submit apps to
get signed by Apple as such, which is required to get on the app store.
There's just no other way around it.

On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 3:37 AM João Pais  wrote:

> that's unfortunately not a practical solution either, to buy more
> hardware. the software already ran on laptops, and several people preferred
> an app (which is an even worse minefield for a developer).
>
> I think no one should buy apple anyway, but many people do, and my problem
> is how to get to them.
>
> On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 at 11:12, Josh Moore  wrote:
>
>> Well what I'm saying is the musicians who don't even know what pd, unix,
>> or a terminal is might be more warm to just buying an instrument that has
>> pd inside of it especially in this era of "anti-DAW" electronic music
>> trends, and music in general where almost any new gear that's had software
>> out in the sort of depths of experimental hell have had gear issues of the
>> same thing and get immediately picked up by big magazines.  You can buy an
>> organelle with pd inside of it today.
>> https://www.engadget.com/2019-11-08-critter-and-guitari-organelle-music-computer-review-jack-of-all-trades.html
>> Nothing really stops you from doing the same thing. It's not my decision
>> to do what Apple has done, That is all on them. I i just don't  believe you
>> should be practically forced to pay a company to distribute a free project
>> on their platform.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 2:04 AM João Pais  wrote:
>>
>>> "my thing" is to make my program available to people who don't know what
>>> pd, unix, or a terminal is and just want to play their instrument. these
>>> people have chosen and paid for their hardware to work with, and all those
>>> arguments are moot for them. I guess I can tell them "more than half of the
>>> world is wrong and I am right, you all should correct yourself and do as I
>>> say", but I think it won't take me far.
>>>
>>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 at 10:47, Josh Moore  wrote:
>>>
 Then pay Apple for the privilege of catering to musicians if that's
 your thing more than ethics of a company acting worse than Bill Gates and
 Ballmer era Microsoft combined when it comes to being tone deaf towards the
 developer community and anti-competitive business practices.  There's
 really not much way around this problem, and they aren't going to change
 their mind without a court injunction over their antitrust behavior which
 might be coming sooner rather than later. Even so, you could also build
 upon Raspberry Pis, Belas, and other types of that kind of platform and
 sell pre-configured instruments for musicians as well and target modular,
 and you would make some money from it as well. That ecosystem right now is
 very healthy.

 On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 1:34 AM João Pais  wrote:

> Unfortunately that's not applicable in my case.  Most musicians use
> apple,  and telling them all that will be met with a shrug and a "so 
> what"?
>
> Josh Moore  schrieb am Sa., 19. Sep. 2020,
> 07:57:
>
>> Not sure it's even really worth it. Apple is hostile to open source
>> and multi-platform stuff these days and everyone else who isn't them to 
>> be
>> quite honest.
>>
>> They want to control graphics (deprecate opengl, don't support
>> vulkan, force everyone to use their special API completely incompatible
>> with everything else, boot Epic's engine cuz it doesn't want to pay a
>> premium conveniently during their push for Arcade and all of this)
>>
>> They want to control their processors, lock them down, force you to
>> pay a hundred bucks a year to access the latest development tools or
>> distribute applications, and reject anything they don't like or competes
>> with anything they have unless they make more money from you than they 
>> make
>> from their own software.
>>
>> All anyone needs to do is fork some RTOS *nix microkernel with decent
>> support for graphics hardware and nobody has a reason to use that stuff
>> anymore unless they want to use Logic. This is basically what Blackmagic
>> did for their new hardware, it's all RTLinux as is a lot of the new 
>> digital
>> consoles. But regardless of my gripes with Apple's crappy antics lately
>> these things are really something Miller himself needs to take up with
>> Apple as they do offer free app store access to universities and they 
>> might
>> be interested in embedding Pdlib in logic environment to compete with
>> Ableton. We'd have to get externals merged by Miller for this to work out
>> though as since the whole Unreal Engine debacle caused 

Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple

[João Pais]

that's unfortunately not a practical solution either, to buy more hardware.
the software already ran on laptops, and several people preferred an app
(which is an even worse minefield for a developer).

I think no one should buy apple anyway, but many people do, and my problem
is how to get to them.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 at 11:12, Josh Moore  wrote:

> Well what I'm saying is the musicians who don't even know what pd, unix,
> or a terminal is might be more warm to just buying an instrument that has
> pd inside of it especially in this era of "anti-DAW" electronic music
> trends, and music in general where almost any new gear that's had software
> out in the sort of depths of experimental hell have had gear issues of the
> same thing and get immediately picked up by big magazines.  You can buy an
> organelle with pd inside of it today.
> https://www.engadget.com/2019-11-08-critter-and-guitari-organelle-music-computer-review-jack-of-all-trades.html
> Nothing really stops you from doing the same thing. It's not my decision
> to do what Apple has done, That is all on them. I i just don't  believe you
> should be practically forced to pay a company to distribute a free project
> on their platform.
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 2:04 AM João Pais  wrote:
>
>> "my thing" is to make my program available to people who don't know what
>> pd, unix, or a terminal is and just want to play their instrument. these
>> people have chosen and paid for their hardware to work with, and all those
>> arguments are moot for them. I guess I can tell them "more than half of the
>> world is wrong and I am right, you all should correct yourself and do as I
>> say", but I think it won't take me far.
>>
>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 at 10:47, Josh Moore  wrote:
>>
>>> Then pay Apple for the privilege of catering to musicians if that's your
>>> thing more than ethics of a company acting worse than Bill Gates and
>>> Ballmer era Microsoft combined when it comes to being tone deaf towards the
>>> developer community and anti-competitive business practices.  There's
>>> really not much way around this problem, and they aren't going to change
>>> their mind without a court injunction over their antitrust behavior which
>>> might be coming sooner rather than later. Even so, you could also build
>>> upon Raspberry Pis, Belas, and other types of that kind of platform and
>>> sell pre-configured instruments for musicians as well and target modular,
>>> and you would make some money from it as well. That ecosystem right now is
>>> very healthy.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 1:34 AM João Pais  wrote:
>>>
 Unfortunately that's not applicable in my case.  Most musicians use
 apple,  and telling them all that will be met with a shrug and a "so what"?

 Josh Moore  schrieb am Sa., 19. Sep. 2020,
 07:57:

> Not sure it's even really worth it. Apple is hostile to open source
> and multi-platform stuff these days and everyone else who isn't them to be
> quite honest.
>
> They want to control graphics (deprecate opengl, don't support vulkan,
> force everyone to use their special API completely incompatible with
> everything else, boot Epic's engine cuz it doesn't want to pay a premium
> conveniently during their push for Arcade and all of this)
>
> They want to control their processors, lock them down, force you to
> pay a hundred bucks a year to access the latest development tools or
> distribute applications, and reject anything they don't like or competes
> with anything they have unless they make more money from you than they 
> make
> from their own software.
>
> All anyone needs to do is fork some RTOS *nix microkernel with decent
> support for graphics hardware and nobody has a reason to use that stuff
> anymore unless they want to use Logic. This is basically what Blackmagic
> did for their new hardware, it's all RTLinux as is a lot of the new 
> digital
> consoles. But regardless of my gripes with Apple's crappy antics lately
> these things are really something Miller himself needs to take up with
> Apple as they do offer free app store access to universities and they 
> might
> be interested in embedding Pdlib in logic environment to compete with
> Ableton. We'd have to get externals merged by Miller for this to work out
> though as since the whole Unreal Engine debacle caused Apple to change
> their ToS requiring each piece of code/app has to be ran through
> their approval process or they'll cut you off of xcode/app store/apple id
> with no recourse. But beyond that it's so much cheaper especially for the
> students this software is aimed at primarily to just stick pd on a RT
> patched linux kernel on a 50 dollar ARM SBC and call it good.
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 8:53 AM João Pais  wrote:
>
>> Hi list,
>>
>> I'm preparing a package based on Pd work, but I run into 

Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple

[Josh Moore]

Well what I'm saying is the musicians who don't even know what pd, unix, or
a terminal is might be more warm to just buying an instrument that has pd
inside of it especially in this era of "anti-DAW" electronic music trends,
and music in general where almost any new gear that's had software out in
the sort of depths of experimental hell have had gear issues of the same
thing and get immediately picked up by big magazines.  You can buy an
organelle with pd inside of it today.
https://www.engadget.com/2019-11-08-critter-and-guitari-organelle-music-computer-review-jack-of-all-trades.html
Nothing really stops you from doing the same thing. It's not my decision to
do what Apple has done, That is all on them. I i just don't  believe you
should be practically forced to pay a company to distribute a free project
on their platform.


On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 2:04 AM João Pais  wrote:

> "my thing" is to make my program available to people who don't know what
> pd, unix, or a terminal is and just want to play their instrument. these
> people have chosen and paid for their hardware to work with, and all those
> arguments are moot for them. I guess I can tell them "more than half of the
> world is wrong and I am right, you all should correct yourself and do as I
> say", but I think it won't take me far.
>
> On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 at 10:47, Josh Moore  wrote:
>
>> Then pay Apple for the privilege of catering to musicians if that's your
>> thing more than ethics of a company acting worse than Bill Gates and
>> Ballmer era Microsoft combined when it comes to being tone deaf towards the
>> developer community and anti-competitive business practices.  There's
>> really not much way around this problem, and they aren't going to change
>> their mind without a court injunction over their antitrust behavior which
>> might be coming sooner rather than later. Even so, you could also build
>> upon Raspberry Pis, Belas, and other types of that kind of platform and
>> sell pre-configured instruments for musicians as well and target modular,
>> and you would make some money from it as well. That ecosystem right now is
>> very healthy.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 1:34 AM João Pais  wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately that's not applicable in my case.  Most musicians use
>>> apple,  and telling them all that will be met with a shrug and a "so what"?
>>>
>>> Josh Moore  schrieb am Sa., 19. Sep. 2020,
>>> 07:57:
>>>
 Not sure it's even really worth it. Apple is hostile to open source and
 multi-platform stuff these days and everyone else who isn't them to be
 quite honest.

 They want to control graphics (deprecate opengl, don't support vulkan,
 force everyone to use their special API completely incompatible with
 everything else, boot Epic's engine cuz it doesn't want to pay a premium
 conveniently during their push for Arcade and all of this)

 They want to control their processors, lock them down, force you to pay
 a hundred bucks a year to access the latest development tools or distribute
 applications, and reject anything they don't like or competes with anything
 they have unless they make more money from you than they make from their
 own software.

 All anyone needs to do is fork some RTOS *nix microkernel with decent
 support for graphics hardware and nobody has a reason to use that stuff
 anymore unless they want to use Logic. This is basically what Blackmagic
 did for their new hardware, it's all RTLinux as is a lot of the new digital
 consoles. But regardless of my gripes with Apple's crappy antics lately
 these things are really something Miller himself needs to take up with
 Apple as they do offer free app store access to universities and they might
 be interested in embedding Pdlib in logic environment to compete with
 Ableton. We'd have to get externals merged by Miller for this to work out
 though as since the whole Unreal Engine debacle caused Apple to change
 their ToS requiring each piece of code/app has to be ran through
 their approval process or they'll cut you off of xcode/app store/apple id
 with no recourse. But beyond that it's so much cheaper especially for the
 students this software is aimed at primarily to just stick pd on a RT
 patched linux kernel on a 50 dollar ARM SBC and call it good.

 On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 8:53 AM João Pais  wrote:

> Hi list,
>
> I'm preparing a package based on Pd work, but I run into annoying
> problems with recent apple OSs, namely notarization and security. Things
> seem to work if the user commits to switching off all security protocols,
> but for people who don't know Pd, they might be squeamish about this.
> Therefore I wanted to ask a couple of questions to someone who might have
> experience in distributing pd-based patches.
>
> For clarity: the package is a max patch (for both runtime and
> standalone 

Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple

[João Pais]

"my thing" is to make my program available to people who don't know what
pd, unix, or a terminal is and just want to play their instrument. these
people have chosen and paid for their hardware to work with, and all those
arguments are moot for them. I guess I can tell them "more than half of the
world is wrong and I am right, you all should correct yourself and do as I
say", but I think it won't take me far.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 at 10:47, Josh Moore  wrote:

> Then pay Apple for the privilege of catering to musicians if that's your
> thing more than ethics of a company acting worse than Bill Gates and
> Ballmer era Microsoft combined when it comes to being tone deaf towards the
> developer community and anti-competitive business practices.  There's
> really not much way around this problem, and they aren't going to change
> their mind without a court injunction over their antitrust behavior which
> might be coming sooner rather than later. Even so, you could also build
> upon Raspberry Pis, Belas, and other types of that kind of platform and
> sell pre-configured instruments for musicians as well and target modular,
> and you would make some money from it as well. That ecosystem right now is
> very healthy.
>
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 1:34 AM João Pais  wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately that's not applicable in my case.  Most musicians use
>> apple,  and telling them all that will be met with a shrug and a "so what"?
>>
>> Josh Moore  schrieb am Sa., 19. Sep. 2020, 07:57:
>>
>>> Not sure it's even really worth it. Apple is hostile to open source and
>>> multi-platform stuff these days and everyone else who isn't them to be
>>> quite honest.
>>>
>>> They want to control graphics (deprecate opengl, don't support vulkan,
>>> force everyone to use their special API completely incompatible with
>>> everything else, boot Epic's engine cuz it doesn't want to pay a premium
>>> conveniently during their push for Arcade and all of this)
>>>
>>> They want to control their processors, lock them down, force you to pay
>>> a hundred bucks a year to access the latest development tools or distribute
>>> applications, and reject anything they don't like or competes with anything
>>> they have unless they make more money from you than they make from their
>>> own software.
>>>
>>> All anyone needs to do is fork some RTOS *nix microkernel with decent
>>> support for graphics hardware and nobody has a reason to use that stuff
>>> anymore unless they want to use Logic. This is basically what Blackmagic
>>> did for their new hardware, it's all RTLinux as is a lot of the new digital
>>> consoles. But regardless of my gripes with Apple's crappy antics lately
>>> these things are really something Miller himself needs to take up with
>>> Apple as they do offer free app store access to universities and they might
>>> be interested in embedding Pdlib in logic environment to compete with
>>> Ableton. We'd have to get externals merged by Miller for this to work out
>>> though as since the whole Unreal Engine debacle caused Apple to change
>>> their ToS requiring each piece of code/app has to be ran through
>>> their approval process or they'll cut you off of xcode/app store/apple id
>>> with no recourse. But beyond that it's so much cheaper especially for the
>>> students this software is aimed at primarily to just stick pd on a RT
>>> patched linux kernel on a 50 dollar ARM SBC and call it good.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 8:53 AM João Pais  wrote:
>>>
 Hi list,

 I'm preparing a package based on Pd work, but I run into annoying
 problems with recent apple OSs, namely notarization and security. Things
 seem to work if the user commits to switching off all security protocols,
 but for people who don't know Pd, they might be squeamish about this.
 Therefore I wanted to ask a couple of questions to someone who might have
 experience in distributing pd-based patches.

 For clarity: the package is a max patch (for both runtime and
 standalone versions), with the Pd app and patches included in a supporting
 folder - running with the recent pd~ object. When done properly, the user
 won't even be aware that pd itself is running.

 - how can one avoid asking a user to allow safety access to Pd and its
 externals? And while at that, to the max standalone as well?
 - I'm myself a windows user, and don't have a mac - I can only get the
 standalone compiled when a friend grants me access to his computer. Which
 system do you advise to prepare a package? It works fine in 10.13, from
 10.15 seems to be problematic.
 - I had a look at codesigning a package, but it seems that it's
 necessary to sign up as an apple developer and pay 100us a year, which I'm
 not willing to do. The package won't be going to any app store, it's just
 to distribute as a zip file for computers. Any way to circumvent this?

 Best,

 jmmmp
 

Re: [PD] problem with correct numbers in pd double precision

[hans w. koch]

arrghhh…sometimes live can be so easy :-)

cheers 
hans

> Am 19.09.2020 um 10:45 schrieb Lucas Cordiviola :
> 
> I think you can convert symbol back to float just using [f ].
> 
> [123123123(
> |
> [makefilename %f]
> |
> [t a 0]
> | |
> [text set foo]
> 
> 
> 
> [0(
> |
> [text get foo]
> |
> [f ]
> |
> [print]
> 
> 
> :)
> 
> Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
> 
> On 9/19/2020 4:16 AM, hans w. koch wrote:
>> thanks lucas,
>> 
>> transitioning numbers over to symbolland could solve my problem, interesting 
>> to know.
>> 
>> i need to store some of the big numbers in a textfile and there i get the 
>> same problems with representation.
>> if i recall them later, they´ve lost their precision.
>> so i can make the transition back from symboldland with a bit of fudi 
>> objects voodoo and be good :-)
>> 
>> what i use is this:
>> [makefilename %f]
>> |
>> [list trim symbol]
>> |
>> [fudiformat -u]
>> |
>> [fudiparse]
>> 
>> and have my number back from symbol.
>> 
>> best
>> hans
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 19.09.2020 um 05:32 schrieb Lucas Cordiviola :
>>> 
>>> If you want to print the numbers nicely to the console add [makefilename 
>>> %f] :
>>> 
>>> [t b f]
>>>   |
>>>   [makefilename %f]
>>>   |
>>>   [print count]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Be aware of https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/812
>>> 
>>> :)
>>> 
>>> Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
>>> 
>>> On 9/18/2020 6:12 PM, hans w. koch wrote:
 hello,
 
 its probably due to my lack of understanding the correct number 
 representations, but here it goes anyway:
 
 i compiled pd 51-2 double precision for mac 10.14.6
 with this version i was hoping to do some maths on big numbers.
 but already an increment of 1 on some moderatly big number gives me 
 problems of representation.
 
 i made a simple version of the problem as a patch.
 to verify you have a working version of pd double, it contains a simple 
 test.
 and then an iterative addition +1 starting from 99.
 i get this:
 count: 99
 count: 1e+06
 count: 1e+06
 count: 1e+06
 count: 1e+06
 count: 1e+06
 count: 1.0e+06
 count: 1.1e+06
 count: 1.1e+06
 count: 1.1e+06
 
 the algorith terminates succesfully by a [select] after 10 iterations, but 
 the results don´t show what i expect.
 this to me indicates, that the internal numbers are correct, but they 
 don´t “surface” as such.
 
 i would be grateful for any pointers and possible workarounds, as the 
 numbers i hope to be dealing with are potentially orders of magnitude 
 higher.
 
 thanks hans
 
 
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Re: [PD] problem with correct numbers in pd double precision

[Lucas Cordiviola]

I think you can convert symbol back to float just using [f ].

[123123123(
|
[makefilename %f]
|
[t a 0]
| |
[text set foo]



[0(
|
[text get foo]
|
[f ]
|
[print]


:)

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 9/19/2020 4:16 AM, hans w. koch wrote:

thanks lucas,

transitioning numbers over to symbolland could solve my problem, interesting to 
know.

i need to store some of the big numbers in a textfile and there i get the same 
problems with representation.
if i recall them later, they´ve lost their precision.
so i can make the transition back from symboldland with a bit of fudi objects 
voodoo and be good :-)

what i use is this:
[makefilename %f]
|
[list trim symbol]
|
[fudiformat -u]
|
[fudiparse]

and have my number back from symbol.

best
hans




Am 19.09.2020 um 05:32 schrieb Lucas Cordiviola :

If you want to print the numbers nicely to the console add [makefilename %f] :

[t b f]
   |
   [makefilename %f]
   |
   [print count]


Be aware of https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/812

:)

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 9/18/2020 6:12 PM, hans w. koch wrote:

hello,

its probably due to my lack of understanding the correct number 
representations, but here it goes anyway:

i compiled pd 51-2 double precision for mac 10.14.6
with this version i was hoping to do some maths on big numbers.
but already an increment of 1 on some moderatly big number gives me problems of 
representation.

i made a simple version of the problem as a patch.
to verify you have a working version of pd double, it contains a simple test.
and then an iterative addition +1 starting from 99.
i get this:
count: 99
count: 1e+06
count: 1e+06
count: 1e+06
count: 1e+06
count: 1e+06
count: 1.0e+06
count: 1.1e+06
count: 1.1e+06
count: 1.1e+06

the algorith terminates succesfully by a [select] after 10 iterations, but the 
results don´t show what i expect.
this to me indicates, that the internal numbers are correct, but they don´t 
“surface” as such.

i would be grateful for any pointers and possible workarounds, as the numbers i 
hope to be dealing with are potentially orders of magnitude higher.

thanks hans


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Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple

[João Pais]

Unfortunately that's not applicable in my case.  Most musicians use apple,
and telling them all that will be met with a shrug and a "so what"?

Josh Moore  schrieb am Sa., 19. Sep. 2020, 07:57:

> Not sure it's even really worth it. Apple is hostile to open source and
> multi-platform stuff these days and everyone else who isn't them to be
> quite honest.
>
> They want to control graphics (deprecate opengl, don't support vulkan,
> force everyone to use their special API completely incompatible with
> everything else, boot Epic's engine cuz it doesn't want to pay a premium
> conveniently during their push for Arcade and all of this)
>
> They want to control their processors, lock them down, force you to pay a
> hundred bucks a year to access the latest development tools or distribute
> applications, and reject anything they don't like or competes with anything
> they have unless they make more money from you than they make from their
> own software.
>
> All anyone needs to do is fork some RTOS *nix microkernel with decent
> support for graphics hardware and nobody has a reason to use that stuff
> anymore unless they want to use Logic. This is basically what Blackmagic
> did for their new hardware, it's all RTLinux as is a lot of the new digital
> consoles. But regardless of my gripes with Apple's crappy antics lately
> these things are really something Miller himself needs to take up with
> Apple as they do offer free app store access to universities and they might
> be interested in embedding Pdlib in logic environment to compete with
> Ableton. We'd have to get externals merged by Miller for this to work out
> though as since the whole Unreal Engine debacle caused Apple to change
> their ToS requiring each piece of code/app has to be ran through
> their approval process or they'll cut you off of xcode/app store/apple id
> with no recourse. But beyond that it's so much cheaper especially for the
> students this software is aimed at primarily to just stick pd on a RT
> patched linux kernel on a 50 dollar ARM SBC and call it good.
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 8:53 AM João Pais  wrote:
>
>> Hi list,
>>
>> I'm preparing a package based on Pd work, but I run into annoying
>> problems with recent apple OSs, namely notarization and security. Things
>> seem to work if the user commits to switching off all security protocols,
>> but for people who don't know Pd, they might be squeamish about this.
>> Therefore I wanted to ask a couple of questions to someone who might have
>> experience in distributing pd-based patches.
>>
>> For clarity: the package is a max patch (for both runtime and standalone
>> versions), with the Pd app and patches included in a supporting folder -
>> running with the recent pd~ object. When done properly, the user won't even
>> be aware that pd itself is running.
>>
>> - how can one avoid asking a user to allow safety access to Pd and its
>> externals? And while at that, to the max standalone as well?
>> - I'm myself a windows user, and don't have a mac - I can only get the
>> standalone compiled when a friend grants me access to his computer. Which
>> system do you advise to prepare a package? It works fine in 10.13, from
>> 10.15 seems to be problematic.
>> - I had a look at codesigning a package, but it seems that it's necessary
>> to sign up as an apple developer and pay 100us a year, which I'm not
>> willing to do. The package won't be going to any app store, it's just to
>> distribute as a zip file for computers. Any way to circumvent this?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> jmmmp
>> ___
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>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
>> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>>
>
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Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple

[Josh Moore]

>
> 
>> And more to this point...
>> https://eclecticlight.co/2020/08/22/apple-silicon-macs-will-require-signed-code/
>>
>> This means that once the transition to Apple Silicon takes place, in the
>> future you might not be able to distribute binary form stuff not
>> distributed through the App Store and/or signed by a registered developer
>> eventually. You will be able to compile source code and run your own
>> signatures, but otherwise you're SOL. It's clear from their latest actions
>> that even the "allow" button in the control panel is a stop-gap measure.
>> Better off just distributing the source code with a shell script and having
>> everyone self sign their apps, same amount of terminal commands just a bit
>> of waiting. You could theoretically distribute externals that way too by
>> calling the shell API from pd itself after it's compiled. Heck you could
>> probably do it with deken and tcl alone and not have to worry about
>> packaging multi-os packages they'd just have to wait a little longer than
>> getting a binary. I've had success getting pd to compile in Windows
>> Subsystem for Linux which can run as a terminal right in VS Code it's
>> freaking awesome to be honest and as VS Code also has a OSX counterpart (as
>> with Linux) it's relatively trivial to just modify the environment,
>> generate one big sh file with a case selection for what machine you want to
>> target, and you're done.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 11:00 PM Josh Moore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Not sure it's even really worth it. Apple is hostile to open source and
>>> multi-platform stuff these days and everyone else who isn't them to be
>>> quite honest.
>>>
>>> They want to control graphics (deprecate opengl, don't support vulkan,
>>> force everyone to use their special API completely incompatible with
>>> everything else, boot Epic's engine cuz it doesn't want to pay a premium
>>> conveniently during their push for Arcade and all of this)
>>>
>>> They want to control their processors, lock them down, force you to pay
>>> a hundred bucks a year to access the latest development tools or distribute
>>> applications, and reject anything they don't like or competes with anything
>>> they have unless they make more money from you than they make from their
>>> own software.
>>>
>>> All anyone needs to do is fork some RTOS *nix microkernel with decent
>>> support for graphics hardware and nobody has a reason to use that stuff
>>> anymore unless they want to use Logic. This is basically what Blackmagic
>>> did for their new hardware, it's all RTLinux as is a lot of the new digital
>>> consoles. But regardless of my gripes with Apple's crappy antics lately
>>> these things are really something Miller himself needs to take up with
>>> Apple as they do offer free app store access to universities and they might
>>> be interested in embedding Pdlib in logic environment to compete with
>>> Ableton. We'd have to get externals merged by Miller for this to work out
>>> though as since the whole Unreal Engine debacle caused Apple to change
>>> their ToS requiring each piece of code/app has to be ran through
>>> their approval process or they'll cut you off of xcode/app store/apple id
>>> with no recourse. But beyond that it's so much cheaper especially for the
>>> students this software is aimed at primarily to just stick pd on a RT
>>> patched linux kernel on a 50 dollar ARM SBC and call it good.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 8:53 AM João Pais  wrote:
>>>
 Hi list,

 I'm preparing a package based on Pd work, but I run into annoying
 problems with recent apple OSs, namely notarization and security. Things
 seem to work if the user commits to switching off all security protocols,
 but for people who don't know Pd, they might be squeamish about this.
 Therefore I wanted to ask a couple of questions to someone who might have
 experience in distributing pd-based patches.

 For clarity: the package is a max patch (for both runtime and
 standalone versions), with the Pd app and patches included in a supporting
 folder - running with the recent pd~ object. When done properly, the user
 won't even be aware that pd itself is running.

 - how can one avoid asking a user to allow safety access to Pd and its
 externals? And while at that, to the max standalone as well?
 - I'm myself a windows user, and don't have a mac - I can only get the
 standalone compiled when a friend grants me access to his computer. Which
 system do you advise to prepare a package? It works fine in 10.13, from
 10.15 seems to be problematic.
 - I had a look at codesigning a package, but it seems that it's
 necessary to sign up as an apple developer and pay 100us a year, which I'm
 not willing to do. The package won't be going to any app store, it's just
 to distribute as a zip file for computers. Any way to circumvent this?

 Best,

Re: [PD] problem with correct numbers in pd double precision

[hans w. koch]

thanks lucas,

transitioning numbers over to symbolland could solve my problem, interesting to 
know.

i need to store some of the big numbers in a textfile and there i get the same 
problems with representation.
if i recall them later, they´ve lost their precision.
so i can make the transition back from symboldland with a bit of fudi objects 
voodoo and be good :-)

what i use is this:
[makefilename %f]
|
[list trim symbol]
|
[fudiformat -u]
|
[fudiparse]

and have my number back from symbol.

best
hans



> Am 19.09.2020 um 05:32 schrieb Lucas Cordiviola :
> 
> If you want to print the numbers nicely to the console add [makefilename %f] :
> 
> [t b f]
>   |
>   [makefilename %f]
>   |
>   [print count]
> 
> 
> Be aware of https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/812
> 
> :)
> 
> Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
> 
> On 9/18/2020 6:12 PM, hans w. koch wrote:
>> hello,
>> 
>> its probably due to my lack of understanding the correct number 
>> representations, but here it goes anyway:
>> 
>> i compiled pd 51-2 double precision for mac 10.14.6
>> with this version i was hoping to do some maths on big numbers.
>> but already an increment of 1 on some moderatly big number gives me problems 
>> of representation.
>> 
>> i made a simple version of the problem as a patch.
>> to verify you have a working version of pd double, it contains a simple test.
>> and then an iterative addition +1 starting from 99.
>> i get this:
>> count: 99
>> count: 1e+06
>> count: 1e+06
>> count: 1e+06
>> count: 1e+06
>> count: 1e+06
>> count: 1.0e+06
>> count: 1.1e+06
>> count: 1.1e+06
>> count: 1.1e+06
>> 
>> the algorith terminates succesfully by a [select] after 10 iterations, but 
>> the results don´t show what i expect.
>> this to me indicates, that the internal numbers are correct, but they don´t 
>> “surface” as such.
>> 
>> i would be grateful for any pointers and possible workarounds, as the 
>> numbers i hope to be dealing with are potentially orders of magnitude higher.
>> 
>> thanks hans
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
>> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list 
>> 




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Re: [PD] Advice on distributing pd-based software for apple

[Josh Moore]

Not sure it's even really worth it. Apple is hostile to open source and
multi-platform stuff these days and everyone else who isn't them to be
quite honest.

They want to control graphics (deprecate opengl, don't support vulkan,
force everyone to use their special API completely incompatible with
everything else, boot Epic's engine cuz it doesn't want to pay a premium
conveniently during their push for Arcade and all of this)

They want to control their processors, lock them down, force you to pay a
hundred bucks a year to access the latest development tools or distribute
applications, and reject anything they don't like or competes with anything
they have unless they make more money from you than they make from their
own software.

All anyone needs to do is fork some RTOS *nix microkernel with decent
support for graphics hardware and nobody has a reason to use that stuff
anymore unless they want to use Logic. This is basically what Blackmagic
did for their new hardware, it's all RTLinux as is a lot of the new digital
consoles. But regardless of my gripes with Apple's crappy antics lately
these things are really something Miller himself needs to take up with
Apple as they do offer free app store access to universities and they might
be interested in embedding Pdlib in logic environment to compete with
Ableton. We'd have to get externals merged by Miller for this to work out
though as since the whole Unreal Engine debacle caused Apple to change
their ToS requiring each piece of code/app has to be ran through
their approval process or they'll cut you off of xcode/app store/apple id
with no recourse. But beyond that it's so much cheaper especially for the
students this software is aimed at primarily to just stick pd on a RT
patched linux kernel on a 50 dollar ARM SBC and call it good.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 8:53 AM João Pais  wrote:

> Hi list,
>
> I'm preparing a package based on Pd work, but I run into annoying problems
> with recent apple OSs, namely notarization and security. Things seem to
> work if the user commits to switching off all security protocols, but for
> people who don't know Pd, they might be squeamish about this. Therefore I
> wanted to ask a couple of questions to someone who might have experience in
> distributing pd-based patches.
>
> For clarity: the package is a max patch (for both runtime and standalone
> versions), with the Pd app and patches included in a supporting folder -
> running with the recent pd~ object. When done properly, the user won't even
> be aware that pd itself is running.
>
> - how can one avoid asking a user to allow safety access to Pd and its
> externals? And while at that, to the max standalone as well?
> - I'm myself a windows user, and don't have a mac - I can only get the
> standalone compiled when a friend grants me access to his computer. Which
> system do you advise to prepare a package? It works fine in 10.13, from
> 10.15 seems to be problematic.
> - I had a look at codesigning a package, but it seems that it's necessary
> to sign up as an apple developer and pay 100us a year, which I'm not
> willing to do. The package won't be going to any app store, it's just to
> distribute as a zip file for computers. Any way to circumvent this?
>
> Best,
>
> jmmmp
> ___
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