Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

2017-12-03 16:47 GMT-02:00 Alexandre Torres Porres :

> I just think libname/objectname is easier and more explicit
>

Oh, it should be clear that doesn't work for a "-lib"

You can actually allow that, and we made it so that you can actually load
an object like [cyclone/>~], but that's another exception
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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[Christof Ressi]

> now, once i load the ZEXY library, there's no way to call VANILLA's 
> [wrap] anymore, it will always be ZEXY's version.

you can still load the vanilla version with [wrap_aliased] after it has been 
overwritten.
there's no way, however, to load [wrap] from another library (like [iemlib]) if 
it's a single binary library.

BTW, the default behaviour of zexy's [wrap] is the same as in vanilla. it just 
provides some nice extra functionality. 

> Gesendet: Montag, 04. Dezember 2017 um 15:41 Uhr
> Von: oliver <oli...@klingt.org>
> An: Pd-List <pd-l...@mail.iem.at>
> Betreff: Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate
>
> Christof Ressi wrote:
> >> True, but there are also exceptions, like in cyclone,
> >
> > and then there are oddities like iemlib being traditionally split into 
> > iemlib1 and iemlib2 - for whatever reason... :-)
> 
> if this is a suggestion to join them into one IEMLIB library:
> 
> here's my +1 !
> 
> 
> 
> while we're at it:
> 
> what about objects that have the same name on different libraries ?
> 
> 
> here's an example of a minor issue i ran into recently:
> 
> VANILLA, IEMLIB AND ZEXY all have an object called [wrap]
> 
> while the IEMLIB and VANILLA [wrap] seem to do the same, ZEXY's [wrap] 
> works very different and also has a second inlet.
> 
> now, once i load the ZEXY library, there's no way to call VANILLA's 
> [wrap] anymore, it will always be ZEXY's version.
> 
> plus: if an object is part of a library and not a single .dll (speaking 
> for windows), it's not possible to call it explicitly on object creation.
> 
> (i.e. [zexy/list2symbol] can't be created,
> i have to declare ZEXY as a library first)
> 
> 
> best
> 
> oliver
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[oliver]

Christof Ressi wrote:

True, but there are also exceptions, like in cyclone,


and then there are oddities like iemlib being traditionally split into iemlib1 
and iemlib2 - for whatever reason... :-)


if this is a suggestion to join them into one IEMLIB library:

here's my +1 !



while we're at it:

what about objects that have the same name on different libraries ?


here's an example of a minor issue i ran into recently:

VANILLA, IEMLIB AND ZEXY all have an object called [wrap]

while the IEMLIB and VANILLA [wrap] seem to do the same, ZEXY's [wrap] 
works very different and also has a second inlet.


now, once i load the ZEXY library, there's no way to call VANILLA's 
[wrap] anymore, it will always be ZEXY's version.


plus: if an object is part of a library and not a single .dll (speaking 
for windows), it's not possible to call it explicitly on object creation.


(i.e. [zexy/list2symbol] can't be created,
i have to declare ZEXY as a library first)


best

oliver



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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[Christof Ressi]

> True, but there are also exceptions, like in cyclone, 

and then there are oddities like iemlib being traditionally split into iemlib1 
and iemlib2 - for whatever reason... :-)
 
 

Gesendet: Montag, 04. Dezember 2017 um 14:06 Uhr
Von: "Alexandre Torres Porres" <por...@gmail.com>
An: "IOhannes m zmoelnig" <zmoel...@iem.at>
Cc: "pd-list@lists.iem.at" <pd-list@lists.iem.at>
Betreff: Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

2017-12-04 7:19 GMT-02:00 IOhannes m zmoelnig 
<zmoel...@iem.at[mailto:zmoel...@iem.at]>:
the only rule of thumb is to inspect the library folder, and if you see
many (or no) {dll|pd_darwin|pd_linux}s files you should use "-path", and
if there are only a very few (usually one(1)) with the name of the
library, then you should use "-lib".
 
True, but there are also exceptions, like in cyclone, which currently has a 
sub-library containing non alpha numeric characters, and you need to add this 
lib if you want them (and it also needs to be in a library for that). It might 
be the only one case like that. And, yeah, ideally it should be all just one 
library or separate files, but we can't do that, so you need both the -path and 
-lib
 
cheers
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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[Pagano, Patrick]

my work around for organelle has been to remove the gate in iemlib completely

iemlib is crucial for many things related to filter and modulo_counter gets a 
ton of use as well recently




Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A

Assistant Professor in Residence

Digital Media & Design

Web & Interactive Technologies

University of Connecticut, Stamford

(352)-226-2016


From: Pd-list <pd-list-boun...@lists.iem.at> on behalf of Alexandre Torres 
Porres <por...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 8:06:59 AM
To: IOhannes m zmoelnig
Cc: pd-list@lists.iem.at
Subject: Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

2017-12-04 7:19 GMT-02:00 IOhannes m zmoelnig 
<zmoel...@iem.at<mailto:zmoel...@iem.at>>:

the only rule of thumb is to inspect the library folder, and if you see
many (or no) {dll|pd_darwin|pd_linux}s files you should use "-path", and
if there are only a very few (usually one(1)) with the name of the
library, then you should use "-lib".

True, but there are also exceptions, like in cyclone, which currently has a 
sub-library containing non alpha numeric characters, and you need to add this 
lib if you want them (and it also needs to be in a library for that). It might 
be the only one case like that. And, yeah, ideally it should be all just one 
library or separate files, but we can't do that, so you need both the -path and 
-lib

cheers

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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

2017-12-04 7:19 GMT-02:00 IOhannes m zmoelnig :
>
>
> the only rule of thumb is to inspect the library folder, and if you see
> many (or no) {dll|pd_darwin|pd_linux}s files you should use "-path", and
> if there are only a very few (usually one(1)) with the name of the
> library, then you should use "-lib".
>

True, but there are also exceptions, like in cyclone, which currently has a
sub-library containing non alpha numeric characters, and you need to add
this lib if you want them (and it also needs to be in a library for that).
It might be the only one case like that. And, yeah, ideally it should be
all just one library or separate files, but we can't do that, so you need
both the -path and -lib

cheers
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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

I dont know how pdmtl is structured, but you can always screw it up and
wrap it in a way that doesn't work. Other than that, if you do things in a
certain way, considered as "safe" / "correct" or "usual", that
libname/objectname syntax will never be a problem.

The way it works is that your lib needs to be in a folder that is also in
the path.

With Pd 0.48-0 we have a new folder for externals suggested by the software
which is also suggested to be added to the search path. If you just say yes
and ok to everything, all the libraries you download will end up in this
external folder that is already in the path, so there won't be any
disadvantages in using libname/objectname!

cheers


2017-12-04 7:05 GMT-02:00 :

> Hi.
>
> Beyond the topic, I wonder also how to know if a library needs "-lib"
> option, and for which operating system. For iemlib, on Xubuntu the "-path"
> option is enough, on Windows, I need to add "-lib". Hard to follow if it is
> not the same option between platforms.
>
> > Now, with Pd Vanilla, you can set the order your own, or use [declare],
> but, again, I just think libname/objectname is easier and more explicit
>
> If it is the common way now, it is good to know. Thanks.
>
> The order seems not working with "-lib". It seems stronger than a "-path"
> option.
>
> I see the good points of this syntax, but also some disadvantages :
> - if you download a set of abstractions "lambda" (~ library) and if the
> syntax inside is "Iambda/objectname", so all help files won't work if you
> open them directly. It was a strange behavior in the good old "pdmtl"
> abstractions help files. I like the idea that you can open any objects and
> help files inside the library folder (like rjdj lib).
> - In a more logical level, if you declare a "-path /any/path/lambda"
> option, the library will not work. You need to declare the parent path,
> which is weird and not suitable if you want to show and declare all
> libraries that you need in a common declare line.
>
> I guess the best practice would be to place all externals inside the same
> parent folder "~/pd/externals", declare this parent path (by default now)
> and also declare all externals paths to show the project's dependencies. So
> you can use the "objectname" alone or with "libname/objectname".
>
> +
>
> --
> Jérôme Abel
> http://jeromeabel.net
> http://reso-nance.org
>
>
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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 2017-12-04 10:32, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> 
> While I fully agree with you, I do believe you are actually helping
> confuse users

thanks for reminding me that i should at least have put on the "rant" tags.

>  by not providing an iemlib build for Linux. If there'd be
> a canonical build (as opposed to the v0.0-extended one),

we (at iem) are aware of that.
there will be a build made available, but i cannot give an ETA.

fgamsdr
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[Roman Haefeli]

On Mon, 2017-12-04 at 10:19 +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> On 2017-12-04 10:05, abel.jer...@free.fr wrote:
> > 
> > Beyond the topic, I wonder also how to know if a library needs "-
> > lib" option, and for which operating system. For iemlib, on Xubuntu
> > the "-path" option is enough, on Windows, I need to add "-lib".
> > Hard to follow if it is not the same option between platforms.
> it's unrelated to the platform. the important part is, how a library
> is
> linked (whether as a single binary with multiple objects, or as a
> directory with one binary per object).
> PdX tried to solve this by pushing a single solution down the throat
> of
> each developer who had a library shipped with PdX.
> some devs didn't like that and stayed with a solution that fit their
> needs better.
> leading to confused users who - depending on where they got the
> library
> from - would need different options to use the library.
> 
> the only rule of thumb is to inspect the library folder, and if you
> see
> many (or no) {dll|pd_darwin|pd_linux}s files you should use "-path",
> and
> if there are only a very few (usually one(1)) with the name of the
> library, then you should use "-lib".

While I fully agree with you, I do believe you are actually helping
confuse users by not providing an iemlib build for Linux. If there'd be
a canonical build (as opposed to the v0.0-extended one), the mechanism
to load the library would be the same on every platform.

I even would have done it myself, but I figured with iemilb it's much
harder for me to automate the building of Deken packages than with
other libraries, so I didn't bother.

Roman


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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 2017-12-04 10:05, abel.jer...@free.fr wrote:
> Beyond the topic, I wonder also how to know if a library needs "-lib" option, 
> and for which operating system. For iemlib, on Xubuntu the "-path" option is 
> enough, on Windows, I need to add "-lib". Hard to follow if it is not the 
> same option between platforms.

it's unrelated to the platform. the important part is, how a library is
linked (whether as a single binary with multiple objects, or as a
directory with one binary per object).
PdX tried to solve this by pushing a single solution down the throat of
each developer who had a library shipped with PdX.
some devs didn't like that and stayed with a solution that fit their
needs better.
leading to confused users who - depending on where they got the library
from - would need different options to use the library.

the only rule of thumb is to inspect the library folder, and if you see
many (or no) {dll|pd_darwin|pd_linux}s files you should use "-path", and
if there are only a very few (usually one(1)) with the name of the
library, then you should use "-lib".

fgamsdr
IOhannes




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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[abel . jerome]

Hi.

Beyond the topic, I wonder also how to know if a library needs "-lib" option, 
and for which operating system. For iemlib, on Xubuntu the "-path" option is 
enough, on Windows, I need to add "-lib". Hard to follow if it is not the same 
option between platforms.

> Now, with Pd Vanilla, you can set the order your own, or use [declare], but, 
> again, I just think libname/objectname is easier and more explicit

If it is the common way now, it is good to know. Thanks.

The order seems not working with "-lib". It seems stronger than a "-path" 
option.

I see the good points of this syntax, but also some disadvantages :
- if you download a set of abstractions "lambda" (~ library) and if the syntax 
inside is "Iambda/objectname", so all help files won't work if you open them 
directly. It was a strange behavior in the good old "pdmtl" abstractions help 
files. I like the idea that you can open any objects and help files inside the 
library folder (like rjdj lib).
- In a more logical level, if you declare a "-path /any/path/lambda" option, 
the library will not work. You need to declare the parent path, which is weird 
and not suitable if you want to show and declare all libraries that you need in 
a common declare line.

I guess the best practice would be to place all externals inside the same 
parent folder "~/pd/externals", declare this parent path (by default now) and 
also declare all externals paths to show the project's dependencies. So you can 
use the "objectname" alone or with "libname/objectname".

+

-- 
Jérôme Abel
http://jeromeabel.net
http://reso-nance.org


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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Sorry, I don't think I understand the issue, or what you mean or ask. But
let me join in anyway.

2017-12-03 15:49 GMT-02:00 Lucas Cordiviola :

> IMO [cyclone/gate] is the "correct" way.
>

There are several externals that have the same name, and there are ways to
control this and call the one you want. The one that is more reliable (or
"correct") to me is libname/objectname, indeed.

In the old days of Pd-Extended, libraries would already be loaded by
default, and cyclone would come first. That means [gate]instantiates
cyclone's instead of iemlib's

Now, with Pd Vanilla, you can set the order your own, or use [declare],
but, again, I just think libname/objectname is easier and more explicit

hope I helped

cheers



>
>
> --
>
> Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
>
> On 12/3/2017 2:18 PM, Jérôme Abel wrote:
> > Hi list,
> >
> > We noticed in the Malinette
> > (https://framagit.org/malinette/malinette-soft) that the [gate]
> > external from iemlib1 replace the cyclone one (the old version, not
> > the beta).
> >
> > In Linux, I don't need to add "-lib iemlib1" to get [para_bp~]
> > external (filter object). But on Windows, I need to add this option
> > and iemlib1 seems stronger (order does not affect this) than cyclone
> > import.
> >
> > The "bad" way woud be to write all objects with [cyclone/gate] but if
> > someone has a better way...
> >
> > Thanks
> >
>
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Re: [PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[Lucas Cordiviola]

IMO [cyclone/gate] is the "correct" way.


--

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/3/2017 2:18 PM, Jérôme Abel wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> We noticed in the Malinette 
> (https://framagit.org/malinette/malinette-soft) that the [gate] 
> external from iemlib1 replace the cyclone one (the old version, not 
> the beta).
>
> In Linux, I don't need to add "-lib iemlib1" to get [para_bp~] 
> external (filter object). But on Windows, I need to add this option 
> and iemlib1 seems stronger (order does not affect this) than cyclone 
> import.
>
> The "bad" way woud be to write all objects with [cyclone/gate] but if 
> someone has a better way...
>
> Thanks
>

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[PD] Force cyclone/gate instead of iemlib1/gate

[Jérôme Abel]

Hi list,

We noticed in the Malinette 
(https://framagit.org/malinette/malinette-soft) that the [gate] external 
from iemlib1 replace the cyclone one (the old version, not the beta).


In Linux, I don't need to add "-lib iemlib1" to get [para_bp~] external 
(filter object). But on Windows, I need to add this option and iemlib1 
seems stronger (order does not affect this) than cyclone import.


The "bad" way woud be to write all objects with [cyclone/gate] but if 
someone has a better way...


Thanks

--
Jérôme Abel
http://jeromeabel.net
http://reso-nance.org


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