Re: [PD] max midi in devices
hello, I think the OSS midi system have been removed from ubuntu after 12.04. about alsa, pd create devices. then they have to be connected using specific tools like aconnect or aconnectgui. an iem external is also dedicated to this task. according to aconnectgui, multiples devices out can be routed to a single midi input. cheers c Le 24/08/2014 22:53, Miller Puckette a écrit : I think the problem in Linux is that the old fashioned /dev/midi* interface (traditionally but incorrectly callesd OSS) doesn't give applications any way to get the names of the MIDI devices. The ALSA midi code (which I think was contributed long ago by Guenter Geiger) doesn't seem to support any way of selecting devices - I believe it just opens them all. cheers Miller On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:07:30PM +0200, Ingo wrote: Hi Miller, the box that I'm building with pd uses 4 MIDI devices - 2 x MIDI, 2x MIDI over USB. With the growing number of wireless MIDI over USB footswitches, USB-MIDI CC pedales, etc. a number of 8 input devices sounds like a good idea. In the good old days (90's) I would have never made it with less than 16 MIDI in/outs ... The problem that I'm fighting with (in Ubuntu) is still the order of the devices. Modprobe.d looks like the only way for now. UDEV doesn't seem to be reliable. Here's a serious problem: when MIDI3 is not present MIDI4 is taking the place of MIDI3 and all numberings shift down by 1 which makes reliable numbering impossible. (So when I heard that using the device names was possible I was pretty excited - looks like it's not working, though. :-( What about a system of virtual MIDI ports that could assign device names to fixed MIDI port numbers? Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-boun...@lists.iem.at] Im Auftrag von Miller Puckette Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. August 2014 20:56 An: Alexandre Torres Porres Cc: Nicolas Montgermont; pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] max midi in devices Hmm - I had thought (in '98 or so) that MIDI was gradually disappearing and the age of multiple MIDI devices was ending. But now I guess with all those USB MIDI' devices coming around I need to imagine a future that will never be MIDI free. It would be easy for me to increase the number of possible deviced in the MIDI dialog to some other arbitrary number... but I have no idea what would be a good one (7? 9?) - at some point it gets unmanageable (and makes the window too big for anyone with a very small screen to work with). So here's a question for Pd users everywhere - if you have more than 4 MIDI devices on your systems, how many do you actualy have? cheers Miller On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 02:29:26AM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: but I don't have enough MIDI devices to test it out past 4 of them. To get their names run I have one that calls for 3 ports (Qnexus), and another for 2 (BCF) so the two alonw gac go over 4 :) ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-08-25 09:54, Cyrille Henry wrote: according to aconnectgui, multiples devices out can be routed to a single midi input. this is what i meant with software midi merger. fgasdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJT+voSAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4LKIP/0fel3BbiU+alXsDNLui+npc McHurCTkcLDMJnk3D49grBwX2IMGRAVNNp7NE5BRyxJdCGalyRyDqtDhN3NCy8Bv CByF3irP//q/ZLS79EnYGuHug7M6rhMIYpW+BF3qI5t92xw7C5M/AAvdBk5Pe3nv eDvVvsX/X+AMMEeYDw/wi+qS2LpCRqXKP6FbusxcWL8muxSLnzI4GKL9dfEkxllU hnkfF2ngNOS5uA2X3v0owlcV9GCRbbw/nv7AmYMiQvCgh3jmgHiMroVXxoKWfF/J pamREgMpF2HVhDKaMIAnF7TzGeQQUn/jRsboOM9XsQbmUAjTJ3QcJmHM+5lm3IlJ UTHC8FJoB4WZ9Cl85T+9F7JKVmWfHxlnKyw3DECLraFWrxx4Bt2+frLwQ/hnZDEI 0qprkJ3suKYwYhmkRNBBrr+yXm+M5YiCKYd7+OnnHJP2MfdkG0CUBFnNMPbNsrJM tQTq7yzeo3yRc6wavHNCqqOKKZBPn0X5MO5WUbMTjcU2lMWpxiqro1eeixUbv8N1 A05ffPw3qMWchfVtLNPYpA51BFczmPbVjJBzpKvr8JfayJL//fHXYGVsNZ696ezP fhB83wTdPcxaIkpUrtWaU41KUkYnOqLNMtgbLWynbO+Yc/2/Rz7RJkA9z99/X5pQ shwv4kghp0MUbtptgXg8 =sjgR -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-08-24 22:07, Ingo wrote: In the good old days (90's) I would have never made it with less than 16 MIDI in/outs ... hold on. since MIDI has 16 channels, does that mean that you had actually a need to address 256 channels? i understand the need to plug many devices, but i don't really see why you cannot plug them into a single (logical) port. there must be simple midi router software for each major platform available. fgasdmr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJT+v2MAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4IzIP/0AKpYsTsqFCTKZDLBBoT6+W QH6oEuTNIwfF8z6OYo7ijwiWdspGwSPoWKkvDenFHIVxJZp5azgUGqiJS5fMuBTq +feqWnb3EXp+pwqxqcvFVcmjsbq+Ja/+52vUlXYK/0mxDJ9yqVheGQoQg7jeEQKI Bn2Aycsyrl+k/ZJuIBfLYyC2HW2j571g5tluqOufEdFz5SU45gW1Qg0H7qNBHASR fUDDKpr7mpvVPovpI/sQeNUul7H1CjbwZfBgoqs7ZfUSxpd8+EWBaazircNRVwQ2 AMzmSZ5+OzMhkoT96h14xKBMLUv1D4jklJ/VDRLomp3xdKdZTMxvDivqZPrLY666 ffvgyghJhNjGxTuWRxaREHxVW76K/boCk4BbMf+42zggqaK0LujEVGt8/jYX1k6o JCtXNTIEXcml+wyKOJ7XIzHePTJZGXtmk1YBGf4YB1TOuZagUjwGVOlA+3zOAkIn a2FPZ2ZY99OvQ55G+E9uFeNdgc7En1nrfcsDl9xxQS+QPp6mwijizLi98wnmf5km yigBoZHv/27rlzJQhPO9x2ZNfWkfxXUjCwca9oJqkdGScEJMK7yzWiqrJhNA/yYz 3HIlLRtrDG3WC7N2VL+VBd+wQFS03xjmQdVCZLdmqjOVNlzRJFO6kki3K3zV4pvi RXaI2k98O9Iv7jxQQ+r8 =0ihx -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-08-25 12:00, Ingo wrote: [...] Now that many manufacturers are building MIDI controllers (apart from keyboards, MIDI guitars, wind controllers, etc.) like a single foot pedal, a single foot switch or gesture control using a full MIDI interface over USB the number will be growing again. I'm pretty sure of that. Instead of connecting one arduino that can handle 30-40 sensors each controller uses its own MIDI interface. agreed to all of it. my question was somewhat different: is it necessary to have Pd provide MIDI-ports for each device, or is it better/simpler/... to have all those devices appear on a *few* ports. let's have an example, connecting a footswitch, a keyboard and a BCF2000 (in some 3-input mode). if we have each of these assigned to a separate port, the MIDI-messages will appear in Pd as: - - footswitch: channels 1..16 - - keyboard: channels 17..32 - - BCF2000: channels 33..80 obviously this only works if we get the device order correct (that is: persistent across reboots). using a MIDI-merger and proper device setup we might as well have all of them come through a single port: - - footswitch: channel 1; CC 64 - - keyboard: channels 1..16; noteon/off - - BCF2000: channels 1; CC1..16; channels 17..32 for other ports this will work regardless of whether Pd (or the system) is able to keep the device order consistent. i do think that the 2nd method is superior. obviously, it is easy to construct use cases where this setup is not enough. but i think these are edge-case, and we should not reserve too much screen estate for things that will hardly ever be used. (however, it should/must be possible to handle these things in an *advanced* mode (e.g. via cmdline args) fgmad IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJT+xVjAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4LuMP/Asj3jrpFDMf4r/alFaeBNMC RtqicWZxe/5OTLKtAbTSeT7+j8WXsKIChABkF8kWRpoJaAuT9/L9weYl7Ocr2WBD N26K1UFZ/FyP3hctwvyKMVHKq/czBVvIPwUzNS2nEO0f+w50bWGqClUmqOkfnhxi DJ70yERjLs8xcVC4ZIiGnqVwl9Rm4zWXv8RdjAnW9CxbzTDK4txjrMy0BtCAu5yY dXWQ8md1xmjrRCLIJzGwa1nfnC4e6eZOr0bWafvN6fClrYXVRTrQtJ+mwk17lwEx FU2gWKtqK/FVAyE6Wkro2MiAYIoUCpa/cbE4Ru+v4K4jILKs+IIl9BLmb5pMsl93 F0UhXfGIgL1m+vxtPHWNWv0YjZe41VV3YkGj4Jp6X2bfkVgD5aS2i5T/R/eyWhMO +gMB6ZtJ+QX30qzXph1BUrfkoq9qA7l1H1vVACEvdRdR5vKVCIgYlX/7dXGGNlr4 a3RfUHuwuszS5ZfEdw3XZ7umT5ircz80J25IW9tkXGoqXUI6hk29qsJ9Mh03B2uJ IXzPI0AiyrnxzExj3YDJFLNB37NVcuNj82AGVMH7G4i2Vl8EdzWNXeD7QR8xJFMK PC2XPr6FeDXJHt0SxhnfwWZPMSbRG6a5P/BlrHCqNjXjoOrErk76QC9pZ1WhV1xw tBuEGUmCp9EXS/V7ZDHj =sFD/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
For me Pd handles it like your second case anyway whether you have a single or multiple interfaces. At least I'm receiving normal MIDI messages that way (using OSS MIDI). If there is another way I'd be interested in finding out. Alsa MIDI was causing problems here recognizing multi in/out MIDI interfaces in a reproducable order. Whether you need more than one physical MIDI cable/interface depends on the amount of traffic that you are generating. And also on the timing precision needed. I'm working mostly with wind controllers like the EWI that can send up to 600 midi messages (breath, pitchbend, modulation, etc.) per second. Sending MIDI from two of those on one physical MIDI bus will already create a bus overflow since the MIDI bus can only handle roughly 1000 CCs per second. A merger would be useless in this case. Timing gets absolutely unpredictable for the player at this point. It could even go as far as making the interface unresponsive or causing delays of several seconds caused by the full MIDI buffer. Playing this renaissance 4 part brass quartett from a sequencer needs 2 MIDI interfaces going to Pd. Otherwise the timing is way off or the MIDI interface even stops working altogether and needs to be disconnected from power to reset the buffer: www.dynasample.com/demos/XPression-Brass_(Dowland).mp3 (This only works on two only cables because there is no pitchbending used. For Jazz with much more bending we'd be looking at MIDI overflows already.) Since different MIDI controllers like an EWI, a keyboard and a MIDI guitar have to be able to be set up at the same time (in my particular case) and usable in parallel multiple physical MIDI ports are necessary to avoid timing problems with realtime (traditional) MIDI intrument playing while expecting a usable timing. That said MIDI over USB can handle multiple MIDI busses at the same time. So a USB interface with multiple ins will work. My OSS MIDI doesn't seem to be able to see these multiple ports, though. I might have to give ALSA MIDI another try maybe. But until now I got the best results with OSS MIDI and single USB2MIDI interfaces. This is of course totally different in a situation where CC messages are much more spaced out or you're not using timing critical sensors simultaneously. Like when using only a couple of switches, note triggers, etc. Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-boun...@lists.iem.at] Im Auftrag von IOhannes m zmoelnig Gesendet: Montag, 25. August 2014 12:52 An: pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] max midi in devices -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-08-25 12:00, Ingo wrote: [...] Now that many manufacturers are building MIDI controllers (apart from keyboards, MIDI guitars, wind controllers, etc.) like a single foot pedal, a single foot switch or gesture control using a full MIDI interface over USB the number will be growing again. I'm pretty sure of that. Instead of connecting one arduino that can handle 30-40 sensors each controller uses its own MIDI interface. agreed to all of it. my question was somewhat different: is it necessary to have Pd provide MIDI-ports for each device, or is it better/simpler/... to have all those devices appear on a *few* ports. let's have an example, connecting a footswitch, a keyboard and a BCF2000 (in some 3-input mode). if we have each of these assigned to a separate port, the MIDI-messages will appear in Pd as: - - footswitch: channels 1..16 - - keyboard: channels 17..32 - - BCF2000: channels 33..80 obviously this only works if we get the device order correct (that is: persistent across reboots). using a MIDI-merger and proper device setup we might as well have all of them come through a single port: - - footswitch: channel 1; CC 64 - - keyboard: channels 1..16; noteon/off - - BCF2000: channels 1; CC1..16; channels 17..32 for other ports this will work regardless of whether Pd (or the system) is able to keep the device order consistent. i do think that the 2nd method is superior. obviously, it is easy to construct use cases where this setup is not enough. but i think these are edge-case, and we should not reserve too much screen estate for things that will hardly ever be used. (however, it should/must be possible to handle these things in an *advanced* mode (e.g. via cmdline args) fgmad IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJT+xVjAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4LuMP/Asj3jrpFDMf4r/alFaeBNMC RtqicWZxe/5OTLKtAbTSeT7+j8WXsKIChABkF8kWRpoJaAuT9/L9weYl7Ocr2WBD N26K1UFZ/FyP3hctwvyKMVHKq/czBVvIPwUzNS2nEO0f+w50bWGqClUmqOkfnhxi DJ70yERjLs8xcVC4ZIiGnqVwl9Rm4zWXv8RdjAnW9CxbzTDK4txjrMy0BtCAu5yY dXWQ8md1xmjrRCLIJzGwa1nfnC4e6eZOr0bWafvN6fClrYXVRTrQtJ+mwk17lwEx FU2gWKtqK/FVAyE6Wkro2MiAYIoUCpa/cbE4Ru+v4K4jILKs+IIl9BLmb5pMsl93 F0UhXfGIgL1m+vxtPHWNWv0YjZe41VV3YkGj4Jp6X2bfkVgD5aS2i5T/R/eyWhMO +gMB6ZtJ+QX30qzXph1BUrfkoq9qA7l1H1vVACEvdRdR5vKVCIgYlX
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-08-25 14:05, Ingo wrote: Alsa MIDI was causing problems here recognizing multi in/out MIDI interfaces in a reproducable order. have you reported a bug? if it's reproducible, it might be fixable as well... Whether you need more than one physical MIDI cable/interface depends on the amount of traffic that you are generating. And also on the timing precision needed. yes. that's why i'm talking about logical MIDI ports rather than physical ports. i assume that these logical ports do not suffer from timing problem (as the serial link speed of MIDI does not apply). For me Pd handles it like your second case anyway whether you have a single or multiple interfaces. At least I'm receiving normal MIDI messages that way (using OSS MIDI). If there is another way I'd be interested in finding out. as cyrille has pointed out, OSS MIDI is really fading out of linux distros. but in any case, if you are specifying multiple MIDI devices and all are merged within Pd, this sounds like a bug to me (though i might be wrong), as this is inconsistent with e.g. ALSA MIDI, where you get a new port (with a new range of 16 channels). fgmasd IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJT+0M8AAoJELZQGcR/ejb4K1AP+gPWmnM53DbzpxOOKZ2IuD+3 Z64IXQYLS6ezBgDUUo4uAKfEe4H5jAyCDvMwjpbrA163q1dUhXkBCdrvlGVfioZi JdIVcaskt5/JWUo/6U3wY/b1yDEtf+3CYXpDCrUlSjwuVzjZVWdcX3upsPJs27jx TnBQGlx6kAyN4+56pMaaNPgiGDO0vSMRNfXijYnyb9jKj9KTnQ1QTFYsJ8LIX/aC WCgAp93BlYRAqsKlJ3YS5xUsixsBXWK5jF+y6jjazkuU1kd00fkznYFadD27PKb2 KGveUpjwMjNfustII6wpZqwEmOpMcHWAFwjyDbnsUVTPpfmGiR081j5Objpk1LeQ 7WkKPVWquJs4U4CEKwUIZYhwWPOrl7SH5GpIBYmMfJvXRZcZsgKWfZHJ9Ufsurml 85P9YkMZUCFEpYf21/Q58FnkETIGRFNJfa6YnEG1uhs9CRN50sicvWSC+d15Qa7R OsZ9mqC+NvnMe3RDOeXjWTHHpVsnWZgTcC44pHs2ld1MpItvBWY7luo7M0sm2OUl ZcES90IL8ZPfaDVwOCum7RXL8JdJdh7qX/CcwjAXxkLZaWd5Qbn3d7LF4m1eJXt0 kYvU+IaSpS9grCAMJjJhHPymzYr/IP6N4egVX2yFPxScFIbN29maHLQLlef4QvLB dgZIjN5JwChh3qcP45ro =279c -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
I'm learning that the world of MIDI applications is a lot more complicated than I thought... I don't think using 'OSS MIDI' that there's any way to prevent having the order of the devices switch around - and there seems to be no way to get meaningful names for them either. I've been hacking on the ASA MIDI code in Pd too, and found the situation highly confusing. Apparently in Pd the first ALSA midi device is 'default' and ones after that are virtual ports that Pd creates (there's other mail in this thread somewhere about that). I'm just now trying to figure it out. Meanwhile, I hope you can just get the very latest Pd from git and try pd -alsamidi -mididev 1,2,3,4,5 to make Pd open the 'defaul' plus 4 virtual ports for connecting to stuff. (in fact, I see the ports open but can't figure out how to do anything with them just yet.) cheers Miller On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 02:05:44PM +0200, Ingo wrote: For me Pd handles it like your second case anyway whether you have a single or multiple interfaces. At least I'm receiving normal MIDI messages that way (using OSS MIDI). If there is another way I'd be interested in finding out. Alsa MIDI was causing problems here recognizing multi in/out MIDI interfaces in a reproducable order. Whether you need more than one physical MIDI cable/interface depends on the amount of traffic that you are generating. And also on the timing precision needed. I'm working mostly with wind controllers like the EWI that can send up to 600 midi messages (breath, pitchbend, modulation, etc.) per second. Sending MIDI from two of those on one physical MIDI bus will already create a bus overflow since the MIDI bus can only handle roughly 1000 CCs per second. A merger would be useless in this case. Timing gets absolutely unpredictable for the player at this point. It could even go as far as making the interface unresponsive or causing delays of several seconds caused by the full MIDI buffer. Playing this renaissance 4 part brass quartett from a sequencer needs 2 MIDI interfaces going to Pd. Otherwise the timing is way off or the MIDI interface even stops working altogether and needs to be disconnected from power to reset the buffer: www.dynasample.com/demos/XPression-Brass_(Dowland).mp3 (This only works on two only cables because there is no pitchbending used. For Jazz with much more bending we'd be looking at MIDI overflows already.) Since different MIDI controllers like an EWI, a keyboard and a MIDI guitar have to be able to be set up at the same time (in my particular case) and usable in parallel multiple physical MIDI ports are necessary to avoid timing problems with realtime (traditional) MIDI intrument playing while expecting a usable timing. That said MIDI over USB can handle multiple MIDI busses at the same time. So a USB interface with multiple ins will work. My OSS MIDI doesn't seem to be able to see these multiple ports, though. I might have to give ALSA MIDI another try maybe. But until now I got the best results with OSS MIDI and single USB2MIDI interfaces. This is of course totally different in a situation where CC messages are much more spaced out or you're not using timing critical sensors simultaneously. Like when using only a couple of switches, note triggers, etc. Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-boun...@lists.iem.at] Im Auftrag von IOhannes m zmoelnig Gesendet: Montag, 25. August 2014 12:52 An: pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] max midi in devices -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-08-25 12:00, Ingo wrote: [...] Now that many manufacturers are building MIDI controllers (apart from keyboards, MIDI guitars, wind controllers, etc.) like a single foot pedal, a single foot switch or gesture control using a full MIDI interface over USB the number will be growing again. I'm pretty sure of that. Instead of connecting one arduino that can handle 30-40 sensors each controller uses its own MIDI interface. agreed to all of it. my question was somewhat different: is it necessary to have Pd provide MIDI-ports for each device, or is it better/simpler/... to have all those devices appear on a *few* ports. let's have an example, connecting a footswitch, a keyboard and a BCF2000 (in some 3-input mode). if we have each of these assigned to a separate port, the MIDI-messages will appear in Pd as: - - footswitch: channels 1..16 - - keyboard: channels 17..32 - - BCF2000: channels 33..80 obviously this only works if we get the device order correct (that is: persistent across reboots). using a MIDI-merger and proper device setup we might as well have all of them come through a single port: - - footswitch: channel 1; CC 64 - - keyboard: channels 1..16; noteon/off - - BCF2000: channels 1; CC1..16; channels 17..32 for other ports this will work regardless of whether Pd
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
Hi Miller, the box that I'm building with pd uses 4 MIDI devices - 2 x MIDI, 2x MIDI over USB. With the growing number of wireless MIDI over USB footswitches, USB-MIDI CC pedales, etc. a number of 8 input devices sounds like a good idea. In the good old days (90's) I would have never made it with less than 16 MIDI in/outs ... The problem that I'm fighting with (in Ubuntu) is still the order of the devices. Modprobe.d looks like the only way for now. UDEV doesn't seem to be reliable. Here's a serious problem: when MIDI3 is not present MIDI4 is taking the place of MIDI3 and all numberings shift down by 1 which makes reliable numbering impossible. (So when I heard that using the device names was possible I was pretty excited - looks like it's not working, though. :-( What about a system of virtual MIDI ports that could assign device names to fixed MIDI port numbers? Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-boun...@lists.iem.at] Im Auftrag von Miller Puckette Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. August 2014 20:56 An: Alexandre Torres Porres Cc: Nicolas Montgermont; pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] max midi in devices Hmm - I had thought (in '98 or so) that MIDI was gradually disappearing and the age of multiple MIDI devices was ending. But now I guess with all those USB MIDI' devices coming around I need to imagine a future that will never be MIDI free. It would be easy for me to increase the number of possible deviced in the MIDI dialog to some other arbitrary number... but I have no idea what would be a good one (7? 9?) - at some point it gets unmanageable (and makes the window too big for anyone with a very small screen to work with). So here's a question for Pd users everywhere - if you have more than 4 MIDI devices on your systems, how many do you actualy have? cheers Miller On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 02:29:26AM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: but I don't have enough MIDI devices to test it out past 4 of them. To get their names run I have one that calls for 3 ports (Qnexus), and another for 2 (BCF) so the two alonw gac go over 4 :) ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
I think the problem in Linux is that the old fashioned /dev/midi* interface (traditionally but incorrectly callesd OSS) doesn't give applications any way to get the names of the MIDI devices. The ALSA midi code (which I think was contributed long ago by Guenter Geiger) doesn't seem to support any way of selecting devices - I believe it just opens them all. cheers Miller On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:07:30PM +0200, Ingo wrote: Hi Miller, the box that I'm building with pd uses 4 MIDI devices - 2 x MIDI, 2x MIDI over USB. With the growing number of wireless MIDI over USB footswitches, USB-MIDI CC pedales, etc. a number of 8 input devices sounds like a good idea. In the good old days (90's) I would have never made it with less than 16 MIDI in/outs ... The problem that I'm fighting with (in Ubuntu) is still the order of the devices. Modprobe.d looks like the only way for now. UDEV doesn't seem to be reliable. Here's a serious problem: when MIDI3 is not present MIDI4 is taking the place of MIDI3 and all numberings shift down by 1 which makes reliable numbering impossible. (So when I heard that using the device names was possible I was pretty excited - looks like it's not working, though. :-( What about a system of virtual MIDI ports that could assign device names to fixed MIDI port numbers? Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-boun...@lists.iem.at] Im Auftrag von Miller Puckette Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. August 2014 20:56 An: Alexandre Torres Porres Cc: Nicolas Montgermont; pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] max midi in devices Hmm - I had thought (in '98 or so) that MIDI was gradually disappearing and the age of multiple MIDI devices was ending. But now I guess with all those USB MIDI' devices coming around I need to imagine a future that will never be MIDI free. It would be easy for me to increase the number of possible deviced in the MIDI dialog to some other arbitrary number... but I have no idea what would be a good one (7? 9?) - at some point it gets unmanageable (and makes the window too big for anyone with a very small screen to work with). So here's a question for Pd users everywhere - if you have more than 4 MIDI devices on your systems, how many do you actualy have? cheers Miller On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 02:29:26AM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: but I don't have enough MIDI devices to test it out past 4 of them. To get their names run I have one that calls for 3 ports (Qnexus), and another for 2 (BCF) so the two alonw gac go over 4 :) ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
OK - it's easier to make a fixed number of devices and just make it larger - I'm nervous about making it unlimited because that would mean re-writing some stuff as loops and that's too much coding for me to do in a test release (too likely to introduce new bugs). So I'll do that for now and try to get a better fix into a later release. cheers M On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 05:57:18PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: well, I'm increasing my device numbers, I'm using about 5 or 6 different devices and some of them use more than one port. Perhaps a nice way would be to have a buttom that adds another device one by one as needed. Or maybe split into two columns the inputs and outputs. I don't think a small screen size would be that much of an issue. cheers 2014-08-24 17:07 GMT-03:00 Ingo i...@miamiwave.com: Hi Miller, the box that I'm building with pd uses 4 MIDI devices - 2 x MIDI, 2x MIDI over USB. With the growing number of wireless MIDI over USB footswitches, USB-MIDI CC pedales, etc. a number of 8 input devices sounds like a good idea. In the good old days (90's) I would have never made it with less than 16 MIDI in/outs ... The problem that I'm fighting with (in Ubuntu) is still the order of the devices. Modprobe.d looks like the only way for now. UDEV doesn't seem to be reliable. Here's a serious problem: when MIDI3 is not present MIDI4 is taking the place of MIDI3 and all numberings shift down by 1 which makes reliable numbering impossible. (So when I heard that using the device names was possible I was pretty excited - looks like it's not working, though. :-( What about a system of virtual MIDI ports that could assign device names to fixed MIDI port numbers? Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-boun...@lists.iem.at] Im Auftrag von Miller Puckette Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. August 2014 20:56 An: Alexandre Torres Porres Cc: Nicolas Montgermont; pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] max midi in devices Hmm - I had thought (in '98 or so) that MIDI was gradually disappearing and the age of multiple MIDI devices was ending. But now I guess with all those USB MIDI' devices coming around I need to imagine a future that will never be MIDI free. It would be easy for me to increase the number of possible deviced in the MIDI dialog to some other arbitrary number... but I have no idea what would be a good one (7? 9?) - at some point it gets unmanageable (and makes the window too big for anyone with a very small screen to work with). So here's a question for Pd users everywhere - if you have more than 4 MIDI devices on your systems, how many do you actualy have? cheers Miller On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 02:29:26AM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: but I don't have enough MIDI devices to test it out past 4 of them. To get their names run I have one that calls for 3 ports (Qnexus), and another for 2 (BCF) so the two alonw gac go over 4 :) ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
Mac Os 10.9 2014-08-23 2:26 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: What OS are you on? (I just found out there are problems finding MIDI devices by name in linux, FWIW) thanks Miller On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 11:21:19PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: hey, works, thought I had tried it exactly like this too, but maybe not. Now, I couldn't do it by calling the devices by name, how should I do it? Cool, now I'm running 5 inputs, but the midiin dialog only shows the first 4 devices. Is there a way to make it show more than that? What is the maximum number of inputs now? I assume there is a limit. I also always wondered how the devices are numbered in a sequence - I mean, why they are listed in the order they show up. Is there a way to control the order? Same doubt applies to audio soundcard input. This might be useful because MIDI channel number depend on this order, right? thanks 2014-08-22 21:26 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: The startup flags should just be -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 (without the pd). cheers M On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:23:23PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: just do for midi input: pd -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 doesn't seem to work, is this exactly what I need to insert in the startup flags? cheers 2014-08-22 15:44 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr : just do for midi input: pd -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 n Le 22/08/2014 19:41, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit : hmm, I'm curious about that nicolas - one way or another I think it'd be good to epxand this limit by default, I don't see what would be the problem for that, right? don't know any midi merger software, any recommendations? cheers 2014-08-22 13:09 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr: IIRC you can have more than 4 devices if you ask for them in command line. It's just the graphical interface that is limited to 4 n Le 22/08/2014 17:41, IOhannes m zmölnig a écrit : On 22. August 2014 09:37:54 MESZ, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, can we only have 4 multiple midi inputs in od? what is the workaround? A midi merger (either hard or software) -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
Limit is 32 devices, in and out. I don't think there's any way to control the order they appear in, unless the OS has something for that. cheers M On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 11:46:54PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: Ok, and is there a limit for maximum number of inputs? I think so, but maybe not I'm still curious how the devices are numbered in the sequence they show up - and I wonder if there's a way to control the order. thanks 2014-08-23 20:50 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: ... and indeed I can't get it to work either. So the only way in the GUI to specify it is numericaly (like -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5). It can be done on the sommand line (from a terminal window like this: [...]/Pd-0.46-0test3.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd \ -midiaddindev Logidy UMI3 \ -midiaddindev nanoKONTROL2 SLIDER/KNOB \ [etc...] but I don't have enough MIDI devices to test it out past 4 of them. To get their names run [...]/Pd-0.46-0test3.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -listdev cheers Miller On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 09:46:04AM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: Mac Os 10.9 2014-08-23 2:26 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: What OS are you on? (I just found out there are problems finding MIDI devices by name in linux, FWIW) thanks Miller On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 11:21:19PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: hey, works, thought I had tried it exactly like this too, but maybe not. Now, I couldn't do it by calling the devices by name, how should I do it? Cool, now I'm running 5 inputs, but the midiin dialog only shows the first 4 devices. Is there a way to make it show more than that? What is the maximum number of inputs now? I assume there is a limit. I also always wondered how the devices are numbered in a sequence - I mean, why they are listed in the order they show up. Is there a way to control the order? Same doubt applies to audio soundcard input. This might be useful because MIDI channel number depend on this order, right? thanks 2014-08-22 21:26 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: The startup flags should just be -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 (without the pd). cheers M On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:23:23PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: just do for midi input: pd -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 doesn't seem to work, is this exactly what I need to insert in the startup flags? cheers 2014-08-22 15:44 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr : just do for midi input: pd -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 n Le 22/08/2014 19:41, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit : hmm, I'm curious about that nicolas - one way or another I think it'd be good to epxand this limit by default, I don't see what would be the problem for that, right? don't know any midi merger software, any recommendations? cheers 2014-08-22 13:09 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr: IIRC you can have more than 4 devices if you ask for them in command line. It's just the graphical interface that is limited to 4 n Le 22/08/2014 17:41, IOhannes m zmölnig a écrit : On 22. August 2014 09:37:54 MESZ, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, can we only have 4 multiple midi inputs in od? what is the workaround? A midi merger (either hard or software) -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
but I don't have enough MIDI devices to test it out past 4 of them. To get their names run I have one that calls for 3 ports (Qnexus), and another for 2 (BCF) so the two alonw gac go over 4 :) 2014-08-23 20:50 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: ... and indeed I can't get it to work either. So the only way in the GUI to specify it is numericaly (like -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5). It can be done on the sommand line (from a terminal window like this: [...]/Pd-0.46-0test3.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd \ -midiaddindev Logidy UMI3 \ -midiaddindev nanoKONTROL2 SLIDER/KNOB \ [etc...] but I don't have enough MIDI devices to test it out past 4 of them. To get their names run [...]/Pd-0.46-0test3.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd -listdev cheers Miller On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 09:46:04AM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: Mac Os 10.9 2014-08-23 2:26 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: What OS are you on? (I just found out there are problems finding MIDI devices by name in linux, FWIW) thanks Miller On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 11:21:19PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: hey, works, thought I had tried it exactly like this too, but maybe not. Now, I couldn't do it by calling the devices by name, how should I do it? Cool, now I'm running 5 inputs, but the midiin dialog only shows the first 4 devices. Is there a way to make it show more than that? What is the maximum number of inputs now? I assume there is a limit. I also always wondered how the devices are numbered in a sequence - I mean, why they are listed in the order they show up. Is there a way to control the order? Same doubt applies to audio soundcard input. This might be useful because MIDI channel number depend on this order, right? thanks 2014-08-22 21:26 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: The startup flags should just be -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 (without the pd). cheers M On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:23:23PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: just do for midi input: pd -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 doesn't seem to work, is this exactly what I need to insert in the startup flags? cheers 2014-08-22 15:44 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr : just do for midi input: pd -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 n Le 22/08/2014 19:41, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit : hmm, I'm curious about that nicolas - one way or another I think it'd be good to epxand this limit by default, I don't see what would be the problem for that, right? don't know any midi merger software, any recommendations? cheers 2014-08-22 13:09 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr: IIRC you can have more than 4 devices if you ask for them in command line. It's just the graphical interface that is limited to 4 n Le 22/08/2014 17:41, IOhannes m zmölnig a écrit : On 22. August 2014 09:37:54 MESZ, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, can we only have 4 multiple midi inputs in od? what is the workaround? A midi merger (either hard or software) -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
On 22. August 2014 09:37:54 MESZ, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, can we only have 4 multiple midi inputs in od? what is the workaround? A midi merger (either hard or software) -- mfh.ifs.dhr IOhannes sent from my pdp-12 ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
moreover, aren't there any flags to call for multiple input/output devices automatically? I'm being able to call only one cheers 2014-08-22 14:41 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com: hmm, I'm curious about that nicolas - one way or another I think it'd be good to epxand this limit by default, I don't see what would be the problem for that, right? don't know any midi merger software, any recommendations? cheers 2014-08-22 13:09 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr: IIRC you can have more than 4 devices if you ask for them in command line. It's just the graphical interface that is limited to 4 n Le 22/08/2014 17:41, IOhannes m zmölnig a écrit : On 22. August 2014 09:37:54 MESZ, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, can we only have 4 multiple midi inputs in od? what is the workaround? A midi merger (either hard or software) -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
just do for midi input: pd -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 n Le 22/08/2014 19:41, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit : hmm, I'm curious about that nicolas - one way or another I think it'd be good to epxand this limit by default, I don't see what would be the problem for that, right? don't know any midi merger software, any recommendations? cheers 2014-08-22 13:09 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr mailto:nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr: IIRC you can have more than 4 devices if you ask for them in command line. It's just the graphical interface that is limited to 4 n Le 22/08/2014 17:41, IOhannes m zmölnig a écrit : On 22. August 2014 09:37:54 MESZ, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com mailto:por...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, can we only have 4 multiple midi inputs in od? what is the workaround? A midi merger (either hard or software) -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
Or, as of 0.46, you can specify them by name (in case the numbers switch around): pd -midiaddindev device-name-1 -midiaddindev device-name-2 [...] You can get the device names by looking at the MID dialog, or by starting pd -listdev Theoretically, you can add all the -midiaddindev (etc) garbage to Pd's command line in the startup dialog -- I haven't tried that myself. cheers Miller On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:44:34PM +0200, Nicolas Montgermont wrote: just do for midi input: pd -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 n Le 22/08/2014 19:41, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit : hmm, I'm curious about that nicolas - one way or another I think it'd be good to epxand this limit by default, I don't see what would be the problem for that, right? don't know any midi merger software, any recommendations? cheers 2014-08-22 13:09 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr mailto:nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr: IIRC you can have more than 4 devices if you ask for them in command line. It's just the graphical interface that is limited to 4 n Le 22/08/2014 17:41, IOhannes m zmölnig a écrit : On 22. August 2014 09:37:54 MESZ, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com mailto:por...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, can we only have 4 multiple midi inputs in od? what is the workaround? A midi merger (either hard or software) -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] max midi in devices
What OS are you on? (I just found out there are problems finding MIDI devices by name in linux, FWIW) thanks Miller On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 11:21:19PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: hey, works, thought I had tried it exactly like this too, but maybe not. Now, I couldn't do it by calling the devices by name, how should I do it? Cool, now I'm running 5 inputs, but the midiin dialog only shows the first 4 devices. Is there a way to make it show more than that? What is the maximum number of inputs now? I assume there is a limit. I also always wondered how the devices are numbered in a sequence - I mean, why they are listed in the order they show up. Is there a way to control the order? Same doubt applies to audio soundcard input. This might be useful because MIDI channel number depend on this order, right? thanks 2014-08-22 21:26 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: The startup flags should just be -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 (without the pd). cheers M On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:23:23PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: just do for midi input: pd -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 doesn't seem to work, is this exactly what I need to insert in the startup flags? cheers 2014-08-22 15:44 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr : just do for midi input: pd -midiindev 1,2,3,4,5 n Le 22/08/2014 19:41, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit : hmm, I'm curious about that nicolas - one way or another I think it'd be good to epxand this limit by default, I don't see what would be the problem for that, right? don't know any midi merger software, any recommendations? cheers 2014-08-22 13:09 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr: IIRC you can have more than 4 devices if you ask for them in command line. It's just the graphical interface that is limited to 4 n Le 22/08/2014 17:41, IOhannes m zmölnig a écrit : On 22. August 2014 09:37:54 MESZ, Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, can we only have 4 multiple midi inputs in od? what is the workaround? A midi merger (either hard or software) -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://www.nimon.org ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
