Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
On Mar 26, 2008, at 10:07 PM, Marcus A. Hofmann wrote: sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB Jpegs exported from LR will all look identical in Safari 3.1 on OS X 10.5. They all look exactly like the original looks in LR. But they all look different from each other in Firefox, and in FF also look different from the original in LR. Safari is the only browser that supports colour management. IE on the Mac (and ONLY on the Mac) supported it via an option that was turned off by default, but that browser is long gone. To cut a long story short, do your editing in whatever colour space you choose then convert to sRGB when saving for web use. Leaving the profile info embedded in the file is optional. It makes very little difference to the file size so I always leave it in for the benefit of Safari users. - Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Colors and Spaces and Browsers
This may be slightly off-topic. But maybe someone here can help. Something I don't get at all is all that color space thing. I read a little about it and decided to just go with the Lightroom default of ProPhoto RGB, but I am now running into problems. The symptoms: sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB Jpegs exported from LR will all look identical in Safari 3.1 on OS X 10.5. They all look exactly like the original looks in LR. But they all look different from each other in Firefox, and in FF also look different from the original in LR. If I resize and resample them using GDlib (in a php script), the resulting Jpegs will look like the original Jpegs do in Firefox, which is different from what the original looks like in LR. But at least it is consistent in Firefox. But in Safari, the resized images will now also look like they do in Firefox, which is different from the original Jpegs. I have put up an example: http://ntony.codewut.de/temp/test.html If you look at it in Safari and Firefox, you will see what I mean. Maybe someone can explain what is happening there? How do you deal with that? Thanks. -Marcus -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Hi, I'm no colorspace expert either, but here's what i know: default in webbrowsers that are not colorspace aware is sRGB, so pictures stored with ProPhoto or Adobe RGB should display incorrectly in those. I dont have a OSX machine but i think Safari is color space aware, FF2 is not, FF3beta should be (not sure on a mac, but definitly on windoze), not sure about the IEs either as i ignore them as much as i can. if you resample the images the colospace information will probably be dropped (i doubt very much that gdlib knows anything about color spaces) and images are displayed using default sRGB color space ... So probably best for you is to use sRGB instead of ProPhoto, if you produce stuff for the web cheers Andreas This may be slightly off-topic. But maybe someone here can help. Something I don't get at all is all that color space thing. I read a little about it and decided to just go with the Lightroom default of ProPhoto RGB, but I am now running into problems. The symptoms: sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB Jpegs exported from LR will all look identical in Safari 3.1 on OS X 10.5. They all look exactly like the original looks in LR. But they all look different from each other in Firefox, and in FF also look different from the original in LR. If I resize and resample them using GDlib (in a php script), the resulting Jpegs will look like the original Jpegs do in Firefox, which is different from what the original looks like in LR. But at least it is consistent in Firefox. But in Safari, the resized images will now also look like they do in Firefox, which is different from the original Jpegs. I have put up an example: http://ntony.codewut.de/temp/test.html If you look at it in Safari and Firefox, you will see what I mean. Maybe someone can explain what is happening there? How do you deal with that? Thanks. -Marcus -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Unlike Safari, FF isn't yet colour space aware. I posted these some time ago comparing FF2 FF3alpha FF2 (~240kb): http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1123/1459003391_e188a4bee1_o.jpg FF3alpha (~250kb) http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1331/1459005903_8e3c267108_o.jpg Your best bet is to assume everyone is using a non colour space aware browser just stick with sRGB for web images. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Marcus A. Hofmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This may be slightly off-topic. But maybe someone here can help. Something I don't get at all is all that color space thing. I read a little about it and decided to just go with the Lightroom default of ProPhoto RGB, but I am now running into problems. The symptoms: sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB Jpegs exported from LR will all look identical in Safari 3.1 on OS X 10.5. They all look exactly like the original looks in LR. But they all look different from each other in Firefox, and in FF also look different from the original in LR. If I resize and resample them using GDlib (in a php script), the resulting Jpegs will look like the original Jpegs do in Firefox, which is different from what the original looks like in LR. But at least it is consistent in Firefox. But in Safari, the resized images will now also look like they do in Firefox, which is different from the original Jpegs. I have put up an example: http://ntony.codewut.de/temp/test.html If you look at it in Safari and Firefox, you will see what I mean. Maybe someone can explain what is happening there? How do you deal with that? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Andreas, David, thanks for the explanations. I think I get it now. Marcus -- Am 26.03.2008 um 12:30 schrieb David Savage: Unlike Safari, FF isn't yet colour space aware. I posted these some time ago comparing FF2 FF3alpha FF2 (~240kb): http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1123/1459003391_e188a4bee1_o.jpg FF3alpha (~250kb) http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1331/1459005903_8e3c267108_o.jpg Your best bet is to assume everyone is using a non colour space aware browser just stick with sRGB for web images. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Marcus A. Hofmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This may be slightly off-topic. But maybe someone here can help. Something I don't get at all is all that color space thing. I read a little about it and decided to just go with the Lightroom default of ProPhoto RGB, but I am now running into problems. The symptoms: sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB Jpegs exported from LR will all look identical in Safari 3.1 on OS X 10.5. They all look exactly like the original looks in LR. But they all look different from each other in Firefox, and in FF also look different from the original in LR. If I resize and resample them using GDlib (in a php script), the resulting Jpegs will look like the original Jpegs do in Firefox, which is different from what the original looks like in LR. But at least it is consistent in Firefox. But in Safari, the resized images will now also look like they do in Firefox, which is different from the original Jpegs. I have put up an example: http://ntony.codewut.de/temp/test.html If you look at it in Safari and Firefox, you will see what I mean. Maybe someone can explain what is happening there? How do you deal with that? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Marcus A. Hofmann wrote: I have put up an example: http://ntony.codewut.de/temp/test.html If you look at it in Safari and Firefox, you will see what I mean. Maybe someone can explain what is happening there? How do you deal with that? Short answer: Use the sRGB color space for everything you put on the web. In Photoshop: EDIT Convert to Profile... and then select sRGB IEC61966-2.1 as the destination space. sRGB is a color space that is very close to the typical computer monitor, so using it should result in very similar results in browsers that are color space aware and those that aren't. Right now Safari is the only one that is but Firefox 3 should be released fairly soon. Long(ish) answer: Every pixel, as you know, is identified by its color values, of which there are three, Red Green and Blue, on a scale of 0-255. So 255,0,0 would be red. But what shade of red, exactly? Without any color space information, the answer is as red as the receiving device (printer or monitor) can make it (because 255 is the highest number allowed). But as red as the receiving device can make it will, of course, be slightly different on every device. Without an embedded color profile, the color is Device Dependent. ICC profiles solve this problem by defining what any pixel value represents in terms of actual human color perception (theoretically). There are many different color spaces to accommodate many different input/output devices and/or image uses: sRGB, ProPhoto RGB, Adobe RGB 1998, etc. As an example: Say we have created a new designer color Calvin Klein's Strawberry Blush. In sRGB it might be 200 Red, 55 Green, 99 Blue (200,55,99). In ProPhoto RGB color space the same color might be 181,52,80. (BTW: I'm just making these numbers up as examples: Don't try this at home!) A color space aware application like Safari will render sRGB 200,55,99 and ProPhoto 181,52,80 as exactly the same. A non-color space aware application like Firefox 2 can't read the ICC profile, so it will just see different numbers and render them as different colors. This is what you're seeing. Read Real World Color Management by Fraser et. al. to get all the details. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Mark Roberts wrote: Marcus A. Hofmann wrote: I have put up an example: http://ntony.codewut.de/temp/test.html If you look at it in Safari and Firefox, you will see what I mean. Maybe someone can explain what is happening there? How do you deal with that? Short answer: Use the sRGB color space for everything you put on the web. In Photoshop: blah blah a bunch of stuff that makes my head hurt blah I like Tri-X. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Scott Loveless wrote: Mark Roberts wrote: Marcus A. Hofmann wrote: I have put up an example: http://ntony.codewut.de/temp/test.html If you look at it in Safari and Firefox, you will see what I mean. Maybe someone can explain what is happening there? How do you deal with that? Short answer: Use the sRGB color space for everything you put on the web. In Photoshop: blah blah a bunch of stuff that makes my head hurt blah I like Tri-X. If you don't want your Tri-X images to appear pink or blue or green tinted on the web, you'd better pay attention to this color space stuff. Seriously though, Real World Color Management is highly valuable reading even for photographers who shoot only film and don't do digital at all. Much of what's in the book is so fundamental to how human visual perception works. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Just for grins I tested my hypothetical Calvin Klein's Strawberry Blush color of 181,52,80 in ProPhoto RGB and it came out in sRGB as 255,0,102 :) The first two values coming in at the extremes of 255 and 0 makes it apparent there's some clipping taking place in the conversion, but it looks fairly accurate to the human eye. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
recently i read about a guy who did sent some BW images to his print shop .. and got some with a nice green touch back ;-) Turned out he had fiddled with color spaces in PS .. Now he pays attention to color management as well :-D Just for grins I tested my hypothetical Calvin Klein's Strawberry Blush color of 181,52,80 in ProPhoto RGB and it came out in sRGB as 255,0,102 :) The first two values coming in at the extremes of 255 and 0 makes it apparent there's some clipping taking place in the conversion, but it looks fairly accurate to the human eye. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Mark, I gotta ask what you're doing with your free time? My youngest is reading Woman's Wear Daily. What's your excuse? ;-) Regards, Bob S. On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:36 AM, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just for grins I tested my hypothetical Calvin Klein's Strawberry Blush color -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Bob Sullivan wrote: Mark, I gotta ask what you're doing with your free time? My youngest is reading Woman's Wear Daily. What's your excuse? ;-) I teach this stuff. That's part of a class I'm preparing for next week. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
- Original Message - From: Andreas Pfotenhauer Subject: Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers recently i read about a guy who did sent some BW images to his print shop .. and got some with a nice green touch back ;-) Turned out he had fiddled with color spaces in PS .. Now he pays attention to color management as well :-D If you are sending files to a wet lab for printing, it is also best to convert the files to sRGB. I know that there are a bunch of people supplying colour profiles for various labs, but the colour paper itself fits within the sRGB colur space, so there isn't a lot of point in profiling for a specific printer, presuming the lab operator is keeping up his or her end of the bargain by maintaining the machine's calibrations. It'a also very difficult to get perfectly neutral BW off of a colour lab, so be patient with your lab operators, and don't ask for a perfect BW print in a hurry, especially if they are busy. This is especially true of the labs found in retail environments, they can usually do well enough with colour, but sometimes don't have the skill set in place to accurately render a BW without some experimentation. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
You teach Calvin Klein and Strawberry Blush??? And here I thought of you as a motorcycle kind of guy! ;-) Regards, Bob S. On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob Sullivan wrote: Mark, I gotta ask what you're doing with your free time? My youngest is reading Woman's Wear Daily. What's your excuse? ;-) I teach this stuff. That's part of a class I'm preparing for next week. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Scott Loveless wrote: Mark Roberts wrote: Marcus A. Hofmann wrote: I have put up an example: http://ntony.codewut.de/temp/test.html If you look at it in Safari and Firefox, you will see what I mean. Maybe someone can explain what is happening there? How do you deal with that? Short answer: Use the sRGB color space for everything you put on the web. In Photoshop: blah blah a bunch of stuff that makes my head hurt blah I like Tri-X. Tri-X has the advantage of never having to say you're solferino* *purplish red, (as far as I know). -- Vote for Cthulhu. Why settle for a lesser evil... -- Dr. Jerry Pournelle -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
On Mar 26, 2008, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: I gotta ask what you're doing with your free time? My youngest is reading Woman's Wear Daily. What's your excuse? ;-) I teach this stuff. That's part of a class I'm preparing for next week. You teach Calvin Klein and Strawberry Blush??? And here I thought of you as a motorcycle kind of guy! ;-) LOL! We motorcycle guys like the look of fitted leathers ... ]'-) G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
William Robb wrote: If you are sending files to a wet lab for printing, it is also best to convert the files to sRGB. I know that there are a bunch of people supplying colour profiles for various labs, but the colour paper itself fits within the sRGB colur space, so there isn't a lot of point in profiling for a specific printer, presuming the lab operator is keeping up his or her end of the bargain by maintaining the machine's calibrations. It'a also very difficult to get perfectly neutral BW off of a colour lab, so be patient with your lab operators, and don't ask for a perfect BW print in a hurry, especially if they are busy. This is especially true of the labs found in retail environments, they can usually do well enough with colour, but sometimes don't have the skill set in place to accurately render a BW without some experimentation. I don't know if it's still true, but when I worked at the photo shop a few years ago, the owner told me that Fuji Frontier machines weren't even color space aware. He also said that putting your photos into sRGB color space was the way to get the best results for printing on traditional wet color photo paper (like the Frontier uses). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
On Mar 26, 2008, at 10:31 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: William Robb wrote: If you are sending files to a wet lab for printing, it is also best to convert the files to sRGB. I know that there are a bunch of people supplying colour profiles for various labs, but the colour paper itself fits within the sRGB colur space, so there isn't a lot of point in profiling for a specific printer, presuming the lab operator is keeping up his or her end of the bargain by maintaining the machine's calibrations. It'a also very difficult to get perfectly neutral BW off of a colour lab, so be patient with your lab operators, and don't ask for a perfect BW print in a hurry, especially if they are busy. This is especially true of the labs found in retail environments, they can usually do well enough with colour, but sometimes don't have the skill set in place to accurately render a BW without some experimentation. I don't know if it's still true, but when I worked at the photo shop a few years ago, the owner told me that Fuji Frontier machines weren't even color space aware. He also said that putting your photos into sRGB color space was the way to get the best results for printing on traditional wet color photo paper (like the Frontier uses). I don't have many prints made at a service bureau, but when I do I usually use Calypso Imaging. They have several services for printing ... the pro services recommend doing a conversion to their printer/paper profile and embedding it, sending them a TIFF file prepared that way. For one of the less expensive prints I made, I did the default sRGB conversion and had them do their usual. The result was good, cheap, and close enough to what I saw on screen for the price. I printed four 27 x 42 inch BWs with them last year using the profile instructions. They came out perfect, exactly as they looked on screen, so for some services proper profiling is certainly a plus. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Colors and Spaces and Browsers
Mark Roberts wrote: I don't know if it's still true, but when I worked at the photo shop a few years ago, the owner told me that Fuji Frontier machines weren't even color space aware. He also said that putting your photos into sRGB color space was the way to get the best results for printing on traditional wet color photo paper (like the Frontier uses). Some of the modern consumer devices are simply calibrated to sRGB and don't otherwise worry about color spaces. My cheapo Canon LIDE-50 scanner is like that. It seems to my my Canon CanoScan FS4000US film scanner is also like that, but I haven't scanned any film in a couple of years, though I have a big backlog. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
