Re: OT: Elucidating the fundamental differences between Photoshopped and "Real"

2016-02-05 Thread Bruce Walker
On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 1:59 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
>
> I don't use stuff like "Silver Efex 2". That's using someone else's expertise 
> to
> simulate a look of film. To me, that's a cheap cheat—artificial and sterile.
> I have no interest in "simulating film", or anything else, at all. I render 
> my photos
> into monochrome or color as I see perceive the subject to have expressive 
> value,
> as it reflects what I saw when I looked at whatever the subject might be.

Godfrey, you would do well to have a closer look at Silver Efex Pro.
Simulating film is but one of its special effects features, but for me
the real power of it lies in its black and white conversion tools. The
ability to increase contrast just in the midtones, or the coarse and
fine detail extraction tools are very powerful. The Soft Contrast
slider is a terrific tool. There are presets provided to let you
quickly try some different overall looks, but I also tend to avoid
them, preferring to build up my own from scratch.

It's true that everything you can do in Silver Efex Pro you can also
do in Photoshop with enough fiddling and time, but it's so much more
convenient to use SEP. Think of it like Lightroom versus Photoshop.
Same kind of creative enhancement and time saving.

I use Silver Efex all the time, but I almost never simulate film with it.

-- 
-bmw

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Re: OT: Elucidating the fundamental differences between Photoshopped and "Real"

2016-02-04 Thread Bulent Celasun
Darren,

I liked reading your rant, sentiments, whatever you might call it.

They are almost exactly like my feelings...

And I manage to ignore my inconsistency while doing digital B images.

My planned resolution is to start doing something entirely (eh,
almost!) the old, analog way.

I am sure, by the way, that people can easily find "filters" that introduce
random errors / surprises into their totally digital images.

So, essentially, the experience itself is probably the goal.


Bulent


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2016-02-03 19:38 GMT+02:00 Darren Addy :
> People are free to do whatever "trips their trigger" but there are
> times when I personally think Photoshopping is just plain silly. One
> example is TTV photography.
>
> Through The Viewfinder photography is pointing your digital (or film)
> camera at the waist level viewfinder in a TLR or psuedo-TLR like a
> Kodak Duaflex or Argus Super Seventy-Five and recording the resulting
> image. You get a square image with rounded corners, odd distortion
> around the edges and whatever texture in the form of grit or dust is
> inherent in the old camera's viewfinder system.
>
> Examples taken with my Pentax digital:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4149215384/
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4146636149/
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4147376607/
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4167390892/
>
> I find the effect quite fascinating and each old camera is like a
> different TTV "filter" through which to see the world.
>
> Now this effect can mostly be DUPLICATED in Photoshop. One can take
> any image and put a mask around it to simulate the rounded cornered
> square format. They can throw any sort of texture over the top of the
> image and blur the perimeter. But all they have done is create a
> counterfeit of a genuine TTV image, in my view. They've missed all of
> the fun of the process and the use of a vintage camera to again create
> interesting images. Everything has been done from the chair sitting in
> front of their computer.
>
> I feel the same way about Photoshop recreating "lith printing". It's
> not lith printing if you did it in Photoshop. It's a counterfeit
> attempting to imitate the look of a process - one which by its very
> definition has a tough time making two prints from the same negative
> with exactly the same results. I'd say the same for imitating the
> looks of most of the Alternative Processes from cyanotype, to Van Dyke
> brown, to Salt Prints, etc.
>
> The problem with my attitude is that it's not consistent. Where do I
> draw the line? Because any time I convert a digital print to
> monochrome using the great Silver Efex Pro 2, I'm doing the same
> thing. I'm creating a counterfeit of an analog process that few
> practice today. Or if I use a cross-processing filter on a color
> image, I'm simulating a process that used to exist in the days of
> color film processing.
>
> Even if I opt to enjoy such "counterfeiting" I have to admit that the
> ingredient that is missing is the element of Wonder and Surprise that
> was an essential part of analog film and darkroom work. There is no
> digital equivalent to that feeling you get when you see packet of
> prints delivered of your last roll's images - no sense of the magic of
> seeing that image appear from nothing in the tray of developer.
>
> The end product may be indiscernably different to the viewer, but the
> process of getting there was definitely different for me as the
> creator. Different does not make something necessarily better or worse
> but something is lost (and perhaps other things are gained).
>
> Let me get another cup of coffee and then I can resume gazing at my navel...
>
> --
> “The Earth is Art, The Photographer is only a Witness ”
> ― Yann Arthus-Bertrand, Earth from Above
>
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Re: OT: Elucidating the fundamental differences between Photoshopped and "Real"

2016-02-04 Thread steve harley

On 2016-02-04 8:37 , Igor PDML-StR wrote:

And going even deeper, - photography is a counterfeit of painting..
Cheating. Using some weird chemistry instead of real paints...


"counterfeit" has a connotation of intending to deceive; one could say 
photography is a counterfeit of seeing, but i think it's a willing 
suspension of disbelief, and seeing photography is also still seeing; so i 
think it's more of a conspiracy



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Re: OT: Elucidating the fundamental differences between Photoshopped and "Real"

2016-02-04 Thread Godfrey DiGiorgi
So … Simulating something isn't bad when you do it, but it's wretched when 
others do it. Hm. 

I don't use stuff like "Silver Efex 2". That's using someone else's expertise 
to simulate a look of film. To me, that's a cheap cheat—artificial and sterile. 
I have no interest in "simulating film", or anything else, at all. I render my 
photos into monochrome or color as I see perceive the subject to have 
expressive value, as it reflects what I saw when I looked at whatever the 
subject might be. 

Photography as an aesthetic endeavor is, was, and always will be about seeing 
and capturing light to attempt to express how what you saw affected you. 
Whether digital and Photoshop or film and chemicals are the medium you use is 
irrelevant. There's nothing "more real", no more 'wonder and surprise', neither 
more nor less "counterfeiting" involved with the pursuit of film photography 
than there is in any other form of art. Photoshop is just as serious and real a 
tool as an enlarger and four trays of chemicals. 

The sooner you get over these nonsensical attitudes, the sooner you start to 
become a photographer. 

G

"You cannot begin to see until you open your eyes and look at the world in 
front of you."


> On Feb 3, 2016, at 9:38 AM, Darren Addy  wrote:
> 
> People are free to do whatever "trips their trigger" but there are
> times when I personally think Photoshopping is just plain silly. One
> example is TTV photography.
> 
> Through The Viewfinder photography is pointing your digital (or film)
> camera at the waist level viewfinder in a TLR or psuedo-TLR like a
> Kodak Duaflex or Argus Super Seventy-Five and recording the resulting
> image. You get a square image with rounded corners, odd distortion
> around the edges and whatever texture in the form of grit or dust is
> inherent in the old camera's viewfinder system.
> 
> Examples taken with my Pentax digital:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4149215384/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4146636149/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4147376607/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4167390892/
> 
> I find the effect quite fascinating and each old camera is like a
> different TTV "filter" through which to see the world.
> 
> Now this effect can mostly be DUPLICATED in Photoshop. One can take
> any image and put a mask around it to simulate the rounded cornered
> square format. They can throw any sort of texture over the top of the
> image and blur the perimeter. But all they have done is create a
> counterfeit of a genuine TTV image, in my view. They've missed all of
> the fun of the process and the use of a vintage camera to again create
> interesting images. Everything has been done from the chair sitting in
> front of their computer.
> 
> I feel the same way about Photoshop recreating "lith printing". It's
> not lith printing if you did it in Photoshop. It's a counterfeit
> attempting to imitate the look of a process - one which by its very
> definition has a tough time making two prints from the same negative
> with exactly the same results. I'd say the same for imitating the
> looks of most of the Alternative Processes from cyanotype, to Van Dyke
> brown, to Salt Prints, etc.
> 
> The problem with my attitude is that it's not consistent. Where do I
> draw the line? Because any time I convert a digital print to
> monochrome using the great Silver Efex Pro 2, I'm doing the same
> thing. I'm creating a counterfeit of an analog process that few
> practice today. Or if I use a cross-processing filter on a color
> image, I'm simulating a process that used to exist in the days of
> color film processing.
> 
> Even if I opt to enjoy such "counterfeiting" I have to admit that the
> ingredient that is missing is the element of Wonder and Surprise that
> was an essential part of analog film and darkroom work. There is no
> digital equivalent to that feeling you get when you see packet of
> prints delivered of your last roll's images - no sense of the magic of
> seeing that image appear from nothing in the tray of developer.
> 
> The end product may be indiscernably different to the viewer, but the
> process of getting there was definitely different for me as the
> creator. Different does not make something necessarily better or worse
> but something is lost (and perhaps other things are gained).
> 
> Let me get another cup of coffee and then I can resume gazing at my navel...


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Re: OT: Elucidating the fundamental differences between Photoshopped and "Real"

2016-02-04 Thread Igor PDML-StR


Darren,

I understand your thoughts and doubts...
That's the situation for when things are not Black and White (and they 
almost never that way, unless you used a B film or converted it ;-) ).

Everybody draws the line where he/she chooses. That's what's called "Art".

But seriously, let me throw in a few arguments that follow the line
I quoted below.
Cross-processing a film is a counterfeit. Eastman's color film was a 
counterfeit of Technicolor.
35 mm photo film (or for that matter any film) was a counterfeit of 
plates.
And these days, any digital photography is counterfeit, as it is all 
stored in non-visual way, but just with a bunch of "0"s and "1"s stored on 
electronic media. And then it's everybody's subjective interpretation of 
those. (And if you are using LR, - depending on which process you choose, 
you might get different results.)


And going even deeper, - photography is a counterfeit of painting.. 
Cheating. Using some weird chemistry instead of real paints...


The bottom line, - my view at this issue is as follows: Don't worry about 
the methods, as long as you are not trying to pass one for another. Call 
it what it is, and if your like the results, enjoy them!

... and the process, whatever that is.

:-)

Cheers,

Igor



Darren Addy Wed, 03 Feb 2016 09:40:28 -0800 wrote:

...

The problem with my attitude is that it's not consistent. Where do I
draw the line? Because any time I convert a digital print to
monochrome using the great Silver Efex Pro 2, I'm doing the same
thing. I'm creating a counterfeit of an analog process that few
practice today. Or if I use a cross-processing filter on a color
image, I'm simulating a process that used to exist in the days of
color film processing.

...



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OT: Elucidating the fundamental differences between Photoshopped and "Real"

2016-02-03 Thread Darren Addy
People are free to do whatever "trips their trigger" but there are
times when I personally think Photoshopping is just plain silly. One
example is TTV photography.

Through The Viewfinder photography is pointing your digital (or film)
camera at the waist level viewfinder in a TLR or psuedo-TLR like a
Kodak Duaflex or Argus Super Seventy-Five and recording the resulting
image. You get a square image with rounded corners, odd distortion
around the edges and whatever texture in the form of grit or dust is
inherent in the old camera's viewfinder system.

Examples taken with my Pentax digital:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4149215384/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4146636149/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4147376607/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelsmithy/4167390892/

I find the effect quite fascinating and each old camera is like a
different TTV "filter" through which to see the world.

Now this effect can mostly be DUPLICATED in Photoshop. One can take
any image and put a mask around it to simulate the rounded cornered
square format. They can throw any sort of texture over the top of the
image and blur the perimeter. But all they have done is create a
counterfeit of a genuine TTV image, in my view. They've missed all of
the fun of the process and the use of a vintage camera to again create
interesting images. Everything has been done from the chair sitting in
front of their computer.

I feel the same way about Photoshop recreating "lith printing". It's
not lith printing if you did it in Photoshop. It's a counterfeit
attempting to imitate the look of a process - one which by its very
definition has a tough time making two prints from the same negative
with exactly the same results. I'd say the same for imitating the
looks of most of the Alternative Processes from cyanotype, to Van Dyke
brown, to Salt Prints, etc.

The problem with my attitude is that it's not consistent. Where do I
draw the line? Because any time I convert a digital print to
monochrome using the great Silver Efex Pro 2, I'm doing the same
thing. I'm creating a counterfeit of an analog process that few
practice today. Or if I use a cross-processing filter on a color
image, I'm simulating a process that used to exist in the days of
color film processing.

Even if I opt to enjoy such "counterfeiting" I have to admit that the
ingredient that is missing is the element of Wonder and Surprise that
was an essential part of analog film and darkroom work. There is no
digital equivalent to that feeling you get when you see packet of
prints delivered of your last roll's images - no sense of the magic of
seeing that image appear from nothing in the tray of developer.

The end product may be indiscernably different to the viewer, but the
process of getting there was definitely different for me as the
creator. Different does not make something necessarily better or worse
but something is lost (and perhaps other things are gained).

Let me get another cup of coffee and then I can resume gazing at my navel...

-- 
“The Earth is Art, The Photographer is only a Witness ”
― Yann Arthus-Bertrand, Earth from Above

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