Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
Mark Roberts wrote: I agree. I found P-TTL to be vastly superior to TTL on digital. I'd tweak your sentence as follows: I found P-TTL to be vastly superior to TTL on the *istD. With the *istDS, the plain old TTL works very well, enough you can hardly find any difference. Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: K10D with AF540FGZ
I was considering buying a Pentax P-TTL flash because my good old Metz 32MZ-3, working so fine in TTL-mode with the *istD, let me down now with the K10D. In A-mode this flash unit is working OK with the K10D, but that is really a step down in technical progress and needs more attention. Your message has changed my mind on switching to one of both Pentax P-TTL flashes. Perhaps Metz will come out with some upgrade sooner or later. All I want is just TTL. Henk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J and K Messervy Sent: 05 January, 2007 1:23 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ Thanks for that reply mate. I find it annoying that it doesn't expose correctly in p-ttl and with the camera in auto mode. Surely that is the basic requirement for them to get right? Oh well, I'll just keep dialling in flash compensation or exposure compensation on the camera...at least it's easy enough to do. - Original Message - From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
Well, you won't get just TTL with a K10D. With a K10D you can use manual, auto or P-TTL. You will NEVER be able to use TTL with a K10D, the camera does not support it. 2007/1/5, Henk Terhell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I was considering buying a Pentax P-TTL flash because my good old Metz 32MZ-3, working so fine in TTL-mode with the *istD, let me down now with the K10D. In A-mode this flash unit is working OK with the K10D, but that is really a step down in technical progress and needs more attention. Your message has changed my mind on switching to one of both Pentax P-TTL flashes. Perhaps Metz will come out with some upgrade sooner or later. All I want is just TTL. Henk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J and K Messervy Sent: 05 January, 2007 1:23 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ Thanks for that reply mate. I find it annoying that it doesn't expose correctly in p-ttl and with the camera in auto mode. Surely that is the basic requirement for them to get right? Oh well, I'll just keep dialling in flash compensation or exposure compensation on the camera...at least it's easy enough to do. - Original Message - From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: K10D with AF540FGZ
Well, that will be another reason to keep my *istD as backup. See also the critical notes on the absence of support of TTL in the newer Pentax models, and the underexposure of P-TTL of the K100D built-in flash in the article by RiseHigh: http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh/K100D/RiceHighs_Pentax_K100D_Full_Revi ew.html#P-TTL_Exposure_Accuracy Henk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thibouille Sent: 05 January, 2007 12:24 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ Well, you won't get just TTL with a K10D. With a K10D you can use manual, auto or P-TTL. You will NEVER be able to use TTL with a K10D, the camera does not support it. 2007/1/5, Henk Terhell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I was considering buying a Pentax P-TTL flash because my good old Metz 32MZ-3, working so fine in TTL-mode with the *istD, let me down now with the K10D. In A-mode this flash unit is working OK with the K10D, but that is really a step down in technical progress and needs more attention. Your message has changed my mind on switching to one of both Pentax P-TTL flashes. Perhaps Metz will come out with some upgrade sooner or later. All I want is just TTL. Henk -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
- Original Message - From: Henk Terhell Subject: RE: K10D with AF540FGZ I was considering buying a Pentax P-TTL flash because my good old Metz 32MZ-3, working so fine in TTL-mode with the *istD, let me down now with the K10D. In A-mode this flash unit is working OK with the K10D, but that is really a step down in technical progress and needs more attention. Your message has changed my mind on switching to one of both Pentax P-TTL flashes. Perhaps Metz will come out with some upgrade sooner or later. All I want is just TTL. The K10 doesn't do TTL. It's either P-TTL or autoflash. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
All I want is just TTL. Too bad Pentax no longer includes the TTL sensor in the mirror box... Henk Terhell wrote: I was considering buying a Pentax P-TTL flash because my good old Metz 32MZ-3, working so fine in TTL-mode with the *istD, let me down now with the K10D. In A-mode this flash unit is working OK with the K10D, but that is really a step down in technical progress and needs more attention. Your message has changed my mind on switching to one of both Pentax P-TTL flashes. Perhaps Metz will come out with some upgrade sooner or later. All I want is just TTL. Henk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J and K Messervy Sent: 05 January, 2007 1:23 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ Thanks for that reply mate. I find it annoying that it doesn't expose correctly in p-ttl and with the camera in auto mode. Surely that is the basic requirement for them to get right? Oh well, I'll just keep dialling in flash compensation or exposure compensation on the camera...at least it's easy enough to do. - Original Message - From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
On 1/6/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All I want is just TTL. Too bad Pentax no longer includes the TTL sensor in the mirror box... Considering how hit and miss it was on the D, it's not much of a loss IMO. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
It worked quite a bit better on the Ds. David Savage wrote: On 1/6/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All I want is just TTL. Too bad Pentax no longer includes the TTL sensor in the mirror box... Considering how hit and miss it was on the D, it's not much of a loss IMO. Dave -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
Ricehigh is an annoying person, even when I might agree with him. The rest of the time he is best ignored. Henk Terhell wrote: Well, that will be another reason to keep my *istD as backup. See also the critical notes on the absence of support of TTL in the newer Pentax models, and the underexposure of P-TTL of the K100D built-in flash in the article by RiseHigh: http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh/K100D/RiceHighs_Pentax_K100D_Full_Revi ew.html#P-TTL_Exposure_Accuracy Henk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thibouille Sent: 05 January, 2007 12:24 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ Well, you won't get just TTL with a K10D. With a K10D you can use manual, auto or P-TTL. You will NEVER be able to use TTL with a K10D, the camera does not support it. 2007/1/5, Henk Terhell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I was considering buying a Pentax P-TTL flash because my good old Metz 32MZ-3, working so fine in TTL-mode with the *istD, let me down now with the K10D. In A-mode this flash unit is working OK with the K10D, but that is really a step down in technical progress and needs more attention. Your message has changed my mind on switching to one of both Pentax P-TTL flashes. Perhaps Metz will come out with some upgrade sooner or later. All I want is just TTL. Henk -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
David Savage wrote: On 1/6/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All I want is just TTL. Too bad Pentax no longer includes the TTL sensor in the mirror box... Considering how hit and miss it was on the D, it's not much of a loss IMO. I agree. I found P-TTL to be vastly superior to TTL on digital. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 01:43:21PM +0100, Henk Terhell wrote: Well, that will be another reason to keep my *istD as backup. See also the critical notes on the absence of support of TTL in the newer Pentax models, and the underexposure of P-TTL of the K100D built-in flash in the article by RiseHigh: http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh/K100D/RiceHighs_Pentax_K100D_Full_Revi ew.html#P-TTL_Exposure_Accuracy Henk Ah yes, RiceHigh. The thinking (Pentax) man's Ken Rockwell. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
J and K Messervy wrote: I received my flash the other day and have been playing with it a bit indoors and out. First impressions are good, however the exposure results in P-TTL are a little disappointing. I'm finding that for a shot indoors of my kids or similar at quite close range, bouncing off the white ceiling, I get spot on results...but only when I've set the flash exposure compensation to +1. Anyone have any suggestions? Cheers James OK, here's my suggestions: 1. Perhaps the camera deliberately underexposes slightly with flash - keep it with +1 comp. and forget about it? 2. A lens-specific problem. With P-TTL, the pre-flash is at full aperture, and the strength of the main flash is calculated from this. If the lens stops down to say f/11 when it should be f/8, you'll get underexposure. I've run into exactly this problem recently. Test by comparing images in manual mode (no flash) with the same settings, but do 1 shot with the aperture set in-camera (i.e. lens on A), and another with the aperture set to the same nominal value using the lens aperture ring. Exposures should be identical, so any difference means the aperture actuator (either on lens or body) is miscalibrated. 3. P-TTL seems to use focus distance in its calculations, so perhaps close-up pictures using bounce flash cause the camera to throttle the flash output too much? Again, mis-information from the lens re distance (is it a Pentax lens?) may be a cause. David -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
Except that lack of TTL flash turns some of the not-so-old Pentax flashes (such as my 330 FTZ) into purely manual guns which are actually less useful than some of the really old guns (like the AF280T) which at least have an auto sensor in the gun. The 330 FTZ gives good results in TTL mode on my DS so Pentax must have improved the situation since the release of the D. Lack of TTL flash support in the newer DSLRs is going to be really annoying when I get around to upgrading. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/6/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All I want is just TTL. Too bad Pentax no longer includes the TTL sensor in the mirror box... Considering how hit and miss it was on the D, it's not much of a loss IMO. Dave -- Find a Top Online College Degree We'll narrow down the best online colleges to fit your needs for free! http://tags.bluebottle.com/fc/MhtYWUjFnY58lmhEOwNY8Kc1F9bsCx0nMPLPP/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
- Original Message - From: John Francis Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 01:43:21PM +0100, Henk Terhell wrote: Well, that will be another reason to keep my *istD as backup. See also the critical notes on the absence of support of TTL in the newer Pentax models, and the underexposure of P-TTL of the K100D built-in flash in the article by RiseHigh: http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh/K100D/RiceHighs_Pentax_K100D_Full_Revi ew.html#P-TTL_Exposure_Accuracy Henk Ah yes, RiceHigh. The thinking (Pentax) man's Ken Rockwell. I wonder if his test target isn't buggering up the metering. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
I know. My AF 500 FTZ now sits idle most of the time. I use it now and then in manual as a slave studio flash. Cheers, Dave On 1/6/07, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Except that lack of TTL flash turns some of the not-so-old Pentax flashes (such as my 330 FTZ) into purely manual guns which are actually less useful than some of the really old guns (like the AF280T) which at least have an auto sensor in the gun. The 330 FTZ gives good results in TTL mode on my DS so Pentax must have improved the situation since the release of the D. Lack of TTL flash support in the newer DSLRs is going to be really annoying when I get around to upgrading. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/6/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All I want is just TTL. Too bad Pentax no longer includes the TTL sensor in the mirror box... Considering how hit and miss it was on the D, it's not much of a loss IMO. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
- Original Message - From: J and K Messervy Subject: K10D with AF540FGZ I received my flash the other day and have been playing with it a bit indoors and out. First impressions are good, however the exposure results in P-TTL are a little disappointing. I'm finding that for a shot indoors of my kids or similar at quite close range, bouncing off the white ceiling, I get spot on results...but only when I've set the flash exposure compensation to +1. I would have thought that this flash (considering how damn expensive it is) should provide proper exposure with everything set to default. I know bouncing loses some light, but it's not a power problem as I can manually set the flash to light properly. Anyone have any suggestions? I was finding the same thing when I did bounce flash with the camera in programmed exposure mode. A switch to manual exposure was the cure. I don't mind, as that is how I usually use a flash, as I have a fairly low tech approach caused by many years of using simple auto flash units such as the Metz 60CT-2. It is a little odd though, that flash accuracy seems to have regressed as the other technologies have improved. BTW, it doesn't matter how expensive the flash is, it's still the camera that is controlling the exposure in any TTL method. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: J and K Messervy Subject: K10D with AF540FGZ I received my flash the other day and have been playing with it a bit indoors and out. First impressions are good, however the exposure results in P-TTL are a little disappointing. I'm finding that for a shot indoors of my kids or similar at quite close range, bouncing off the white ceiling, I get spot on results...but only when I've set the flash exposure compensation to +1. I would have thought that this flash (considering how damn expensive it is) should provide proper exposure with everything set to default. I know bouncing loses some light, but it's not a power problem as I can manually set the flash to light properly. Anyone have any suggestions? I was finding the same thing when I did bounce flash with the camera in programmed exposure mode. A switch to manual exposure was the cure. I don't mind, as that is how I usually use a flash, as I have a fairly low tech approach caused by many years of using simple auto flash units such as the Metz 60CT-2. It is a little odd though, that flash accuracy seems to have regressed as the other technologies have improved. BTW, it doesn't matter how expensive the flash is, it's still the camera that is controlling the exposure in any TTL method. William Robb Preflash based TTL is inherently less accurate than TTL-OTF flash since the latter measures the light during the exposure. However preflash based systems are also fooled in less situations, so accuracy is to some extent a wash. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
Thanks for that reply mate. I find it annoying that it doesn't expose correctly in p-ttl and with the camera in auto mode. Surely that is the basic requirement for them to get right? Oh well, I'll just keep dialling in flash compensation or exposure compensation on the camera...at least it's easy enough to do. - Original Message - From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ - Original Message - From: J and K Messervy Subject: K10D with AF540FGZ I received my flash the other day and have been playing with it a bit indoors and out. First impressions are good, however the exposure results in P-TTL are a little disappointing. I'm finding that for a shot indoors of my kids or similar at quite close range, bouncing off the white ceiling, I get spot on results...but only when I've set the flash exposure compensation to +1. I would have thought that this flash (considering how damn expensive it is) should provide proper exposure with everything set to default. I know bouncing loses some light, but it's not a power problem as I can manually set the flash to light properly. Anyone have any suggestions? I was finding the same thing when I did bounce flash with the camera in programmed exposure mode. A switch to manual exposure was the cure. I don't mind, as that is how I usually use a flash, as I have a fairly low tech approach caused by many years of using simple auto flash units such as the Metz 60CT-2. It is a little odd though, that flash accuracy seems to have regressed as the other technologies have improved. BTW, it doesn't matter how expensive the flash is, it's still the camera that is controlling the exposure in any TTL method. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
Have you tried making sure that you're using the catch panel when bouncing off the ceiling? I've found that it works perfectly this way. It sends just enough diffused light directly toward the subject (and adds a nice catch light in the eyes). I use it this way and have no need for compensation in P-TTL in AV mode with the K10D at ISO 200 and 400. My flash photos this way are as near perfect as I could want. -Brendan --- J and K Messervy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I received my flash the other day and have been playing with it a bit indoors and out. First impressions are good, however the exposure results in P-TTL are a little disappointing. I'm finding that for a shot indoors of my kids or similar at quite close range, bouncing off the white ceiling, I get spot on results...but only when I've set the flash exposure compensation to +1. I would have thought that this flash (considering how damn expensive it is) should provide proper exposure with everything set to default. I know bouncing loses some light, but it's not a power problem as I can manually set the flash to light properly. Anyone have any suggestions? Cheers James -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
I use the bounce card but usually have my iso set to 100. - Original Message - From: Brendan MacRae [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:03 PM Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ Have you tried making sure that you're using the catch panel when bouncing off the ceiling? I've found that it works perfectly this way. It sends just enough diffused light directly toward the subject (and adds a nice catch light in the eyes). I use it this way and have no need for compensation in P-TTL in AV mode with the K10D at ISO 200 and 400. My flash photos this way are as near perfect as I could want. -Brendan --- J and K Messervy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I received my flash the other day and have been playing with it a bit indoors and out. First impressions are good, however the exposure results in P-TTL are a little disappointing. I'm finding that for a shot indoors of my kids or similar at quite close range, bouncing off the white ceiling, I get spot on results...but only when I've set the flash exposure compensation to +1. I would have thought that this flash (considering how damn expensive it is) should provide proper exposure with everything set to default. I know bouncing loses some light, but it's not a power problem as I can manually set the flash to light properly. Anyone have any suggestions? Cheers James -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
- Original Message - From: J and K Messervy Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ Thanks for that reply mate. I find it annoying that it doesn't expose correctly in p-ttl and with the camera in auto mode. Surely that is the basic requirement for them to get right? Oh well, I'll just keep dialling in flash compensation or exposure compensation on the camera...at least it's easy enough to do. I use the front wheel for exposure comp in programmed and auto exposure modes, and the back wheel for program shift in programmed exposure or for adjusting the aperture/shutter speed in automatic. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D with AF540FGZ
I would up your sensitivity. ISO 100 is slow for on camera flash. I would start at 200 and go up from there. -Brendan --- J and K Messervy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use the bounce card but usually have my iso set to 100. - Original Message - From: Brendan MacRae [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:03 PM Subject: Re: K10D with AF540FGZ Have you tried making sure that you're using the catch panel when bouncing off the ceiling? I've found that it works perfectly this way. It sends just enough diffused light directly toward the subject (and adds a nice catch light in the eyes). I use it this way and have no need for compensation in P-TTL in AV mode with the K10D at ISO 200 and 400. My flash photos this way are as near perfect as I could want. -Brendan --- J and K Messervy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I received my flash the other day and have been playing with it a bit indoors and out. First impressions are good, however the exposure results in P-TTL are a little disappointing. I'm finding that for a shot indoors of my kids or similar at quite close range, bouncing off the white ceiling, I get spot on results...but only when I've set the flash exposure compensation to +1. I would have thought that this flash (considering how damn expensive it is) should provide proper exposure with everything set to default. I know bouncing loses some light, but it's not a power problem as I can manually set the flash to light properly. Anyone have any suggestions? Cheers James -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
