Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Great shot Frank. The contrast works fo rme,the background is appealing and i like the placement of the hand.For me,it adds some depth. You take cameras to parties,i'm not allowed.:-) Dave > I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. > > "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I thi> nk > it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). > > So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more question> s > than it answers: > > http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 > > I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. > > Okay, Albano, the "right" body, and this time, "the right brand" of lens,> > okay? > > cheers, > frank > > "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessim> ist > fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer > > _ > MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 mo> nths > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=> 1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines >
RE: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
This is what B&W is all about. I love it! David Madsen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.davidmadsen.com -Original Message- From: frank theriault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 3:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I think it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more questions than it answers: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Okay, Albano, the "right" body, and this time, "the right brand" of lens, okay? cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=htt p://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Frank, a tender almost intruding image. Female/Female? I believe a tighter crop would improve the impact of this image. Crop from the LH edge to eliminate most of the black hair and crop out about half the distance between the cap and the RH edge. All the above coming from an outdoor photographer. Ken Waller -Original Message- From: frank theriault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. "http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Okay, Albano, the "right" body, and this time, "the right brand" of lens, okay? cheers, frank PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Hi! Frank, one word - you rule ... I really like this one. In this case I cannot say why I like it, I just do. It is so easy here to imagine myself in some gallery of art looking at this photograph printed real big, framed real nice and with little printed text in the corner of the frame... Thanks for sharing. It is definitely a lesson for me. Boris
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
At 09:37 AM 3/7/2004 -0500, you wrote: Thanks for your thoughts, Mark. I appreciate them a great deal. You're welcome! There's a bit of discussion starting WRT to the black mass on the left. Just so y'all know, there is a bit of detail on the print, that's not showing on the scan. Not a lot, but it's there, just some barely visible loose strands of Lucies black hair, and yes, they do provide a bit of relief on the print. This is only a working 8x10, I'm sure that you're right, and that a bit more detail could be burned out in future prints. Just a little detail there to break up the solid black is all you need. When I pulled it into photoshop and lightened it I could see a bit in there. I'm glad you noticed the grey area top left (I think it's an A/C unit or something - doesn't matter, it's there). I kind of like the way it balances things, too. Thanks for noticing. Actually, I got my left and right mixed up... No problem with the top left though. But the other top left (top _right_) really reinforces the right figure as a strong center of interest in this shot. The lines all sort of converge and point in toward her, and then the eye gets swept into the strong horizontal composition, which is expressed in many mays (I just now noticed how the hand-shadow / lock of hair add yet another horizontal element.) Ideally, a faint light area moving from the lower left towards the center will not only open up the shadow there, but echo/compliment/balance the design elements in the upper right. Put all that together with subject matter that has amplified relevance (at least here in the states these days) and you've got one kick-ass image! - MCC - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo, MI http://www.markcassino.com -
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Frank, be more concerned with the lighter areas. Bring down the white and light grey behind Haley, and bring down the white area between the two to a considerable degree. It's distracting, creates a bit of "separation" or distance between the lovers. By bringing down the background the viewer will better focus on the kiss and the lovers. It's a good photograph that can be made into an exceptional one with careful printing and attention to mood. shel frank theriault wrote: > > I guess one would dodge the darker areas to bring out a bit of light detail.
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
OK, let me rephrase that a bit ... it's not ~always~ important that shadow detail be present. What we do with B&W is look not only to record a scene, but to create a mood, evoke a feeling. In a photo like Frank's, reducing or eliminating shadow detail allows the viewer to focus on the kiss, the subtle shading of the hands, the skin tones, and so on. Too much information in the shadows will distract from the central point of the image, perhaps making it weaker. So, even if there was a good bit of detail in the shadows, printing it down might be quite appropriate. Mood isn't always dependent on detail. Keith Whaley wrote: > > Hi Shel, > > Shel Belinkoff wrote: > > >It's not important for the blacks to show detail. > > > Please explain. While I no longer work in a darkroom, I used to spend a > LOT of time there, looking at my B&W negs, and printing, and I was > amazed at how much detail negatives contain, vs. what a print shows. > I was fascinated with the detail in the black. . . > Which is why I don't understand your comment. Why is it not important? > Rather, why do you _say_ it's not important? >
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
I guess one would dodge the darker areas to bring out a bit of light detail. -frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: "frank theriault" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This is only a working 8x10, I'm sure that you're right, and that a bit more detail could be burned out in future prints. _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN Premium. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Thanks for your thoughts, Mark. I appreciate them a great deal. There's a bit of discussion starting WRT to the black mass on the left. Just so y'all know, there is a bit of detail on the print, that's not showing on the scan. Not a lot, but it's there, just some barely visible loose strands of Lucies black hair, and yes, they do provide a bit of relief on the print. This is only a working 8x10, I'm sure that you're right, and that a bit more detail could be burned out in future prints. I'm glad you noticed the grey area top left (I think it's an A/C unit or something - doesn't matter, it's there). I kind of like the way it balances things, too. Thanks for noticing. And, thanks for commenting. cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Mark Cassino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 08:53:29 -0500 Nice one, Frank! I like the way the background highlights converge behind the figure on the right. There's a nice yin and yang of dark and light in the frame, with the dark areas rising to the left, light seemingly falling on the right, and the figures making a nice UL / LR diagonal, reinforced by the lines of the fingers. I would vote for some more detail in the shadow areas on the lower left. There's such a large area of pure black that the left figure seems to just melt into the corner, sort of flattening out. I think that as the eye moves from left to right over the dark area, it goes too long without any visual cues to form a gestalt, so you are left with the impression of the lower left corner just being a flat black area. You don't need much in there - just a few visual cues that it's not all black (which I suspect can be coaxed out of the negative) and the left figure would pop back out of the corner. Nonetheless, fantastic image! - MCC At 05:27 PM 3/6/2004 -0500, you wrote: I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I think it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more questions than it answers: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Okay, Albano, the "right" body, and this time, "the right brand" of lens, okay? cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo, MI http://www.markcassino.com - _ MSN Premium: Up to 11 personalized e-mail addresses and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Nice one, Frank! I like the way the background highlights converge behind the figure on the right. There's a nice yin and yang of dark and light in the frame, with the dark areas rising to the left, light seemingly falling on the right, and the figures making a nice UL / LR diagonal, reinforced by the lines of the fingers. I would vote for some more detail in the shadow areas on the lower left. There's such a large area of pure black that the left figure seems to just melt into the corner, sort of flattening out. I think that as the eye moves from left to right over the dark area, it goes too long without any visual cues to form a gestalt, so you are left with the impression of the lower left corner just being a flat black area. You don't need much in there - just a few visual cues that it's not all black (which I suspect can be coaxed out of the negative) and the left figure would pop back out of the corner. Nonetheless, fantastic image! - MCC At 05:27 PM 3/6/2004 -0500, you wrote: I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I think it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more questions than it answers: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Okay, Albano, the "right" body, and this time, "the right brand" of lens, okay? cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo, MI http://www.markcassino.com -
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Hi Shel, Shel Belinkoff wrote: It's not important for the blacks to show detail. Please explain. While I no longer work in a darkroom, I used to spend a LOT of time there, looking at my B&W negs, and printing, and I was amazed at how much detail negatives contain, vs. what a print shows. I was fascinated with the detail in the black. . . Which is why I don't understand your comment. Why is it not important? Rather, why do you _say_ it's not important? This is B&W photography ... shadow and light. keith whaley "Peter J. Alling" wrote: Frank, That's amazing image, the tonality is great, except, (you knew there had to be one), the blacks don't show any detail, true the print may show more detail than the scan but... Regardless you caught this one just right.
RE: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
frank theriault wrote: > You're right, I do need something fast for my LX, though. So do I. A Murcielago would be about right ;-) Malcolm
RE: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
frank theriault wrote: > http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 > > I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Shocked and stunned of London, UK writes: Brilliant. I love the way as a spectator you are 'caught in the moment'. No real shock value anymore, but I wonder what comments would have been raised by this image even 25 years ago? Malcolm
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Hi Frank ... This is one of the best photos of yours that I've seen, and I'll tell you why. But first, allow me this comment: all the other work of yours that I've seen here exhibits a certain enthusiasm, an excitement that can be seen and felt, but they're not all good photographs. Your obvious enthusiasm moves past the OOF shots, the poorly scanned shots, the shots that were less than ideally framed, and so on ... I suppose that the enthusiasm and joy and excitement that comes off the screen makes the less than technically good pics, good pics. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say ... I suspect you do. Now, this shot has a much different look and feel to it, not only because of the subject, but because everything seems to come together framing, focus, clarity of purpose, strength of the image, and so on. It's as though everything you've been learning has come together in that 1/125th of a second that it took to make the exposure, even if not consciously. This looks like a very deliberate shot ... It is a great photograph ... it is a ~PHOTOGRAPH~ not an image, not a pic, not a snap. This is one that deserves to be printed well, and printed large. This is one that I'd want to hang on my wall. One thing that's not clear on my screen is if the blacks have any detail. I'd hope that there are some areas that are completely black ... this photograph needs such depth ... I wish I could see the print. shel
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
It's not important for the blacks to show detail. This is B&W photography ... shadow and light. "Peter J. Alling" wrote: > > Frank, > That's amazing image, the tonality is great, except, (you knew there > had to be one), the blacks don't show any detail, true the print may show > more detail than the scan but... Regardless you caught this one just right.
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Frank, That's amazing image, the tonality is great, except, (you knew there had to be one), the blacks don't show any detail, true the print may show more detail than the scan but... Regardless you caught this one just right. frank theriault wrote: I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I think it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more questions than it answers: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Okay, Albano, the "right" body, and this time, "the right brand" of lens, okay? cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Albano, I ~do~ have an m42 Super Tak 1.4 50mm. Sadly, it has the "yellow curse", although not too bad. It's okay for b&w (never need yellow filters... ). You're right, I do need something fast for my LX, though. Thanks for your comments! Glad you liked it. cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Albano Garcia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:32:18 -0800 (PST) Great shot Frank!! Very strong, I really like it. Now you only need a real fast lens ;-) Congratulations. _ MSN Premium helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Ah yes, it's two women. All the better. I originally thought it was a woman and a delicately featured man. Very nice in either case. paul On Mar 6, 2004, at 6:13 PM, frank theriault wrote: Paul, Go back and look again. You've missed something that I think is obvious (it's why the ring thing might raise some questions). If you don't know what you've missed, go back to the photo. I've answered it in my response to your comment on photo.net. Thanks for the comment. I'm pleased with the way it turned out. It's my first roll of Neopan 1600 pushed to 3200. The LX handled the exposure beautifully, IMHO (it was set to auto, aperture f2.0). thanks, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:38:58 -0500 Great shot, Frank. It hooked me immediately. I love the tonal range, the way the woman's eyes are closed, the spread of the man's hand. Super. On Mar 6, 2004, at 5:27 PM, frank theriault wrote: I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I think it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more questions than it answers: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Okay, Albano, the "right" body, and this time, "the right brand" of lens, okay? cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE*http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/ prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/ enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN Premium http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/ prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/ enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
From: "frank theriault" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. > > "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I think > it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). > So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more questions > than it answers: > > http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 > > I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Definitely a winner here Frank. Good timing and exposure. Nicely done! Mark
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Nice one, Frank ... in fact, a great one. And i do believe I "got it." It seemed obvious to me from the first look ... yet it's presented in a subtle way. You must have a very good camera frank theriault wrote: > > I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. > > "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I think > it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). > So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more questions > than it answers: > > http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Hey, I suspected that. I like the tones and intensity of the image. The hand is very good! DagT På 7. mar. 2004 kl. 00.13 skrev frank theriault: Paul, Go back and look again. You've missed something that I think is obvious (it's why the ring thing might raise some questions). If you don't know what you've missed, go back to the photo. I've answered it in my response to your comment on photo.net. Thanks for the comment. I'm pleased with the way it turned out. It's my first roll of Neopan 1600 pushed to 3200. The LX handled the exposure beautifully, IMHO (it was set to auto, aperture f2.0). thanks, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:38:58 -0500 Great shot, Frank. It hooked me immediately. I love the tonal range, the way the woman's eyes are closed, the spread of the man's hand. Super. On Mar 6, 2004, at 5:27 PM, frank theriault wrote: I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I think it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more questions than it answers: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Okay, Albano, the "right" body, and this time, "the right brand" of lens, okay? cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE*http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/ prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/ enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN Premium http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/ prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/ enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Paul, Go back and look again. You've missed something that I think is obvious (it's why the ring thing might raise some questions). If you don't know what you've missed, go back to the photo. I've answered it in my response to your comment on photo.net. Thanks for the comment. I'm pleased with the way it turned out. It's my first roll of Neopan 1600 pushed to 3200. The LX handled the exposure beautifully, IMHO (it was set to auto, aperture f2.0). thanks, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:38:58 -0500 Great shot, Frank. It hooked me immediately. I love the tonal range, the way the woman's eyes are closed, the spread of the man's hand. Super. On Mar 6, 2004, at 5:27 PM, frank theriault wrote: I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I think it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more questions than it answers: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Okay, Albano, the "right" body, and this time, "the right brand" of lens, okay? cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE*http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/ prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/ enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN Premium http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: PAW #4 - Haley's Ring
Great shot, Frank. It hooked me immediately. I love the tonal range, the way the woman's eyes are closed, the spread of the man's hand. Super. On Mar 6, 2004, at 5:27 PM, frank theriault wrote: I was a bit late on week 3. Now I'm a bit early on week 4. Oh well. "The Kiss" was taken by Shel (and likely thousands before him), but I think it would have been a good title (have I whetted your appetite yet? ). So, I settled on "Haley's Ring", a title that I hope raises more questions than it answers: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2188556 I'd really like to hear your comments on this one. Okay, Albano, the "right" body, and this time, "the right brand" of lens, okay? cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/ prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/ enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
