Re: Timing (was: As usual: photo advise sought)

2004-01-25 Thread Shel Belinkoff
I tend to agree with Capa's comment.  Having seen the Requiem show, and looked at
the photos in the book, it became clear that those pics that were less than
perfect technically - OOF, showing camera movement - had, in general, a far
greater impact than the nicely exposed, sharp pics.

Can't speak to the financial aspect of the comment, however.

Bob W wrote:

> His 'autobiography' is called 'Slightly Out of Focus'.
> He is supposed to have said that it was better for a
> war photographer if your pictures were slightly out
> of focus because it looked more convincing, as if
> you had been in greater danger, so you could
> charge more for your pictures.




Re: Timing (was: As usual: photo advise sought)

2004-01-25 Thread frank theriault
Comments interspersed:

From: Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Hi,

> Talk of HCB - I know I told the list about seeing the Magnum at 50 Years
> retrospective with the print of the grinning kid with the wine bottles 
("Rue
> Muffon" or something like that).

rue Mouffetard.
Yes, well, I was close.  1 out of 2 syllables ain't bad.  And the first 
syllable, too!  See, this comes back to our "titles" convo of last week.  I 
can never remember ~other people's~ titles either.  Whatever it's called, 
it'll always be "The Grinning Kid with the Wine Bottles" to me.  
> Someone actually accused Capa of purposely shaking his camera for those
> D-Day photos, for dramatic effect.
It refers to the excuse "Life" made on publishing his D-Day photos that
the fear of battle meant he couldn't hold his camera steady. He was
more angry about that than about the ruined photos.
And, as one critic wrote (paraphrasing liberally): Capa was on the heaving 
deck of a landing craft, which reeked of the vomit of nervous soldiers, 
after having crossed the English Channel in unexpectedly rough seas, had 
just jumped chest deep in water, was being shot at, was trying to maneover 
through and across barbed wire, and was bumping into Allied soldiers:  and 
they think he had to ~purposely~ shake his camera?
His 'autobiography' is called 'Slightly Out of Focus'. He is supposed to
have said that it was better for a war photographer if your pictures were
slightly out of focus because it looked more convincing, as if you had been
in greater danger, so you could charge more for your pictures.
Maybe I should become a war photographer.  I've already got the "OOF" thing 
down pat (well, according to Shel, anyway ).

cheers,
frank
_
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Re: Timing (was: As usual: photo advise sought)

2004-01-25 Thread Bob W
Hi,

it is still a peaceful thread.

-- 
Cheers,
 Bob


Sunday, January 25, 2004, 11:09:41 AM, you wrote:

> Hi!

>>His 'autobiography' is called 'Slightly Out of Focus'. He is supposed to
>>have said that it was better for a war photographer if your pictures were
>>slightly out of focus because it looked more convincing, as if you had been
>>in greater danger, so you could charge more for your pictures.

> Here very peaceful thread about two photos made in a bar has entered 
> the war photography zone... 

> Just a notice. I am somewhat surprised.

> Boris



Re: Timing (was: As usual: photo advise sought)

2004-01-24 Thread Shel Belinkoff
> Call it muscle memory, or whatever.

Damn, Frank ... that was the term i was looking for.
Recently read a few articles about it, even how it's
used in the military for certain maneuvers.


> And, sometimes, despite being quite flawed, a shot works anyway.

How true ... a perusal of Cartier-Bresson's work will show
numerous OOF shots that have impact nonetheless.
A favorite photo book, Requiem, has some photos that are
poor technically (not unexpected considering the situation in
which the photos were taken) that have far greater impact
than the many of the better focused and exposed photos.
And let's not forget Robert Capa's  the melted D-Day negatives
hard to imagine the perfect prints having a greater impact
or stronger story.

> http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2074191
>
> It's out of focus.  Quite badly out of focus, in fact.  And, the girl's face
> is blown out a bit

It works because it captures the mood of spontaneity ...

You're the master of Excellent OOF photographs, Frank 

shel



RE: Timing (was: As usual: photo advise sought)

2004-01-24 Thread frank theriault
Boris,

Don't sweat it, buddy!  I think you're thinking too hard.  Not that I have 
any idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about, but really, you've got to 
just go with the flow.

Shel's sage advice is obviously what one should strive for, but I think what 
you want is to internalize it.  To use your tennis analogy, when you're 
learning, you're thinking, quite conciously, of what you have to do.  Once 
you get good, however, you just get "into a groove".  You don't have to 
think style, it just "happens".  Call it muscle memory, or whatever.

I think candid people photography is like that.  You just know when a thing 
looks good, and you snap.  You also know that sometimes it's going to work, 
and sometimes not, but you don't sweat it, one way or the other.  The "work" 
comes with looking at the results, figuring out what went "wrong" or what 
could be improved upon, and figuring out what to do to alleviate it.  But, 
the shooting part shouldn't be "work".

And, sometimes, despite being quite flawed, a shot works anyway.  This 
discussion made me think of a photo I'd recently taken at a party (where I 
love to take my camera, and just blow through many rolls of film!):

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2074191

It's out of focus.  Quite badly out of focus, in fact.  And, the girl's face 
is blown out a bit (but I was working with a non-ttl flash).  I know what I 
did wrong - I was focusing by the focus scale on the ring, not looking 
through the viewfinder at all.  Shooting with the camera near waist level 
with the lens set at a focal length of 24mm.  Everyone seems much more 
relaxed that way.  And, when I saw Glen and his friend, I just shot.  The 
wall behind them is in focus.  They aren't.  But, I like it anyway.  She has 
a great expression on her face.  And, I like where her tatoo is.  So, 
despite the flaws, I had it printed up anyway, to give to them as a present. 
 And, I'm generally pleased with it.

So, I guess what I'm saying (in this very long story) is, listen to what 
Shel said.  Read the book(s) that Tom mentioned.  But don't get worked up 
about it all.  Learn these things, but just go shoot.  That part's supposed 
to be fun.  And, keep posting stuff.  People who know what they're talking 
about (not me ) will be more than happy to give advice.

FWIW, I liked both of your shots, btw.  Only criticism I had is that the 
shadow from the flash was real harsh, but heck, you were using the on-board 
flash...

cheers,
frank
"The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds.  The pessimist 
fears it is true."  -J. Robert Oppenheimer




From: Boris Liberman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Timing (was: As usual: photo advise sought)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 16:54:22 +0200
Hi!

SB> I recently put up a pic for a few people to comment upon.  Ann really 
tore
SB> into me for posting such crap.  One of her comments was that it was 
obvious
SB> that I wasn't thinking about the light.  So, while the subject was good 
(she
SB> allowed me that much ) the photograph was poor.  I realized I'd been
SB> relying too much on the meter in the camera (as a result of spending 
too much
SB> time playing with my digicam).  I took Ann's criticism to heart, 
borrowed an
SB> unfamiliar camera that had no built in meter, and which required me to
SB> concentrate on the entire process ... BINGO!  While i was just shooting 
a
SB> test roll, there were a couple of very simple pics that turned out to 
be very
SB> nice photographs because I was very conscious about working with the 
light
SB> ... thinking about reflections, shadows, time of day, emulsion, color 
caste,
SB> DOF ... I made myself think about and consider every aspect of what 
went into
SB> making a photograph, and the results showed.

SB> Now, maybe i didn't have to make it so difficult for myself, but I felt 
my
SB> skills were deteriorating a bit, and I didn't want to fall back on 
anything
SB> familiar (like aperture priority or using a meter) while testing 
myself.

You know that's the main problem with me. I remember when I was
playing tennis (having a partner, time and so on), it always was the
case that some of the shots just did not go. Either I was throwing the
ball badly for serve, or not taking proper foot work for backhand, or
making odd moves with the wrist for forehand... Only sometimes I could
concentrate deep enough so that my game had resemblance of sense.
As of now, I cannot possibly see how one could make these two shots
with totally manual control of totally manual cameras... Well, I agree
that faster film and wider aperture would let to hand hold... Other
than that I am at total loss here.
Indeed, if one is about to take a scenery picture - one has time to
prepare and even reconsider. But if your friend looks at you smiling
and raises a glass of beer and you decide you want to have this
captured, you're not going to ask them to repeat this exercise 5 t