Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
I've had lots of experience with breaking technology. MARK ! Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "Steven Desjardins" Subject: Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9 Besides, I'm surprised cameras don't have that little dot that turns red when it gets wet. Cells phones all have them. I've immersed two. Oddly, the one I quickly recovered died whereas the one I actually put through a cycle of the washing machine dried out just fine. I've had lots of experience with breaking technology. On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 4:03 AM, eckinator wrote: 2010/5/22 Steven Desjardins : The way people do business reflects their own perception of the way they are treated. If you think that companies will do anything they can to cheat you, they you will reply in kind. This is especially true if they believe that big companies are in some fundamental way "not a person" and do not merit ethical treatment. You can't cheat an inanimate object. I have no love for corporations but if you allow yourself to slip into this way of thinking then you only degrade your own sense of morality. You can begin to treat other individuals in this impersonal way of "doing business". My position is that you do yourself more harm psychologically/spiritually than you gain in the material transaction. Amen to that! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
Yes but you're describing stupidity and greed on the part of customers.
In spite of that the law should be able to shut down the truly
dishonest, yet it doesn't.
On 5/23/2010 1:52 PM, Igor Roshchin wrote:
Sun May 23 01:11:29 CDT 2010
Boris Liberman wrote:
On 5/23/2010 1:57 AM, P. J. Alling wrote:
No corporation that consistently cheats it's customers will survive. To
do that you need a gun and the unrestricted will to use it. Otherwise
customers will flee to another haven. Free markets are free, and the
worst offenses happen in the markets that are most controlled.
Peter, I can give you a number of counter examples in my country.
Boris, - one doesn't need to go across the ocean:
Most PDMLers know a bunch of NYC-based "photo stores" that range
from "bait-n-switch" to "charge-n-send-nothing-or-crap" scammers.
Those have existed (or had existed) for many years.
Some of them are located in mid-Manhattan, some in Brooklyn.
(One can easily spot them here based on reviews:
http://photo.net/neighbor/subcategory-index?id=2 )
Resellerratings.com is yet another good source for finding long-living
resellers with consistantly bad reviews.
Peter:
In a large enough market, - the influx of fools feeding crooks is
large enough (practically infinite) to support long term "stagnation"
of the latter.
(Besides, - strictly speaking, - there are no "free markets". -
Practically all "free" markets are regulated to some degree,
as truly free markets are not sustainable long term. - But
that's a subject for a separate and pointless - within PDML - discussion.)
Igor
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Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
Sun May 23 01:11:29 CDT 2010 Boris Liberman wrote: > On 5/23/2010 1:57 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: > > No corporation that consistently cheats it's customers will survive. To > > do that you need a gun and the unrestricted will to use it. Otherwise > > customers will flee to another haven. Free markets are free, and the > > worst offenses happen in the markets that are most controlled. > > Peter, I can give you a number of counter examples in my country. Boris, - one doesn't need to go across the ocean: Most PDMLers know a bunch of NYC-based "photo stores" that range from "bait-n-switch" to "charge-n-send-nothing-or-crap" scammers. Those have existed (or had existed) for many years. Some of them are located in mid-Manhattan, some in Brooklyn. (One can easily spot them here based on reviews: http://photo.net/neighbor/subcategory-index?id=2 ) Resellerratings.com is yet another good source for finding long-living resellers with consistantly bad reviews. Peter: In a large enough market, - the influx of fools feeding crooks is large enough (practically infinite) to support long term "stagnation" of the latter. (Besides, - strictly speaking, - there are no "free markets". - Practically all "free" markets are regulated to some degree, as truly free markets are not sustainable long term. - But that's a subject for a separate and pointless - within PDML - discussion.) Igor -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
On 5/23/2010 1:57 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: No corporation that consistently cheats it's customers will survive. To do that you need a gun and the unrestricted will to use it. Otherwise customers will flee to another haven. Free markets are free, and the worst offenses happen in the markets that are most controlled. Peter, I can give you a number of counter examples in my country. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
On 5/22/2010 6:38 PM, John Sessoms wrote:
From: Steven Desjardins
The way people do business reflects their own perception of the way
they are treated. If you think that companies will do anything they
can to cheat you, they you will reply in kind. This is especially
true if they believe that big companies are in some fundamental way
"not a person" and do not merit ethical treatment. You can't cheat
an inanimate object.
I have no love for corporations but if you allow yourself to slip into
this way of thinking then you only degrade your own sense of morality.
You can begin to treat other individuals in this impersonal way of
"doing business". My position is that you do yourself more harm
psychologically/spiritually than you gain in the material transaction.
Alternatively, you might take the popular view amongst corporate
apologists that, as Milton Friedman stated in "The Social
Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits" (The New York
Times Magazine, September 13, 1970.), a corporation's ONLY
responsibility is to increase profit by any means fair or foul, and
Devil take the hindmost.
Couple that with a fundamental misrepresentation of the nature of Adam
Smith's "Free Market" by those same corporate apologists and you have
the foundation for the the massive fraud that is the heart, the
fundamental mission, of any modern multinational corporation.
Their sole purpose for existing is to achieve an imbalance in the so
called "free market" that allows the corporation to take everything
and give nothing in return. That we customers receive anything at all
in the transaction is due only to their inability to achieve the
perfection of their aims.
Given the state of affairs that corporations have no responsibility to
act ethically in dealing with their customers, on what basis do you
suggest we, the customers, are obliged to give them any more respect
than they afford us?
A little balancing of the scales of justice is in order I think.
No corporation that consistently cheats it's customers will survive. To
do that you need a gun and the unrestricted will to use it. Otherwise
customers will flee to another haven. Free markets are free, and the
worst offenses happen in the markets that are most controlled.
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Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
From: Steven Desjardins The way people do business reflects their own perception of the way they are treated. If you think that companies will do anything they can to cheat you, they you will reply in kind. This is especially true if they believe that big companies are in some fundamental way "not a person" and do not merit ethical treatment. You can't cheat an inanimate object. I have no love for corporations but if you allow yourself to slip into this way of thinking then you only degrade your own sense of morality. You can begin to treat other individuals in this impersonal way of "doing business". My position is that you do yourself more harm psychologically/spiritually than you gain in the material transaction. Alternatively, you might take the popular view amongst corporate apologists that, as Milton Friedman stated in "The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits" (The New York Times Magazine, September 13, 1970.), a corporation's ONLY responsibility is to increase profit by any means fair or foul, and Devil take the hindmost. Couple that with a fundamental misrepresentation of the nature of Adam Smith's "Free Market" by those same corporate apologists and you have the foundation for the the massive fraud that is the heart, the fundamental mission, of any modern multinational corporation. Their sole purpose for existing is to achieve an imbalance in the so called "free market" that allows the corporation to take everything and give nothing in return. That we customers receive anything at all in the transaction is due only to their inability to achieve the perfection of their aims. Given the state of affairs that corporations have no responsibility to act ethically in dealing with their customers, on what basis do you suggest we, the customers, are obliged to give them any more respect than they afford us? A little balancing of the scales of justice is in order I think. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
Stealing from big companies doesn't count either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qEG9EnHnw0 ;-) On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Steven Desjardins wrote: > Besides, I'm surprised cameras don't have that little dot that turns > red when it gets wet. Cells phones all have them. I've immersed two. > Oddly, the one I quickly recovered died whereas the one I actually put > through a cycle of the washing machine dried out just fine. I've had > lots of experience with breaking technology. > > On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 4:03 AM, eckinator wrote: >> 2010/5/22 Steven Desjardins : >>> The way people do business reflects their own perception of the way >>> they are treated. If you think that companies will do anything they >>> can to cheat you, they you will reply in kind. This is especially >>> true if they believe that big companies are in some fundamental way >>> "not a person" and do not merit ethical treatment. You can't cheat >>> an inanimate object. >>> >>> I have no love for corporations but if you allow yourself to slip into >>> this way of thinking then you only degrade your own sense of morality. >>> You can begin to treat other individuals in this impersonal way of >>> "doing business". My position is that you do yourself more harm >>> psychologically/spiritually than you gain in the material transaction. >>> >> >> Amen to that! >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > > > -- > Steve Desjardins > -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
Besides, I'm surprised cameras don't have that little dot that turns red when it gets wet. Cells phones all have them. I've immersed two. Oddly, the one I quickly recovered died whereas the one I actually put through a cycle of the washing machine dried out just fine. I've had lots of experience with breaking technology. On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 4:03 AM, eckinator wrote: > 2010/5/22 Steven Desjardins : >> The way people do business reflects their own perception of the way >> they are treated. If you think that companies will do anything they >> can to cheat you, they you will reply in kind. This is especially >> true if they believe that big companies are in some fundamental way >> "not a person" and do not merit ethical treatment. You can't cheat >> an inanimate object. >> >> I have no love for corporations but if you allow yourself to slip into >> this way of thinking then you only degrade your own sense of morality. >> You can begin to treat other individuals in this impersonal way of >> "doing business". My position is that you do yourself more harm >> psychologically/spiritually than you gain in the material transaction. >> > > Amen to that! > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
2010/5/22 Steven Desjardins : > The way people do business reflects their own perception of the way > they are treated. If you think that companies will do anything they > can to cheat you, they you will reply in kind. This is especially > true if they believe that big companies are in some fundamental way > "not a person" and do not merit ethical treatment. You can't cheat > an inanimate object. > > I have no love for corporations but if you allow yourself to slip into > this way of thinking then you only degrade your own sense of morality. > You can begin to treat other individuals in this impersonal way of > "doing business". My position is that you do yourself more harm > psychologically/spiritually than you gain in the material transaction. > Amen to that! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
The way people do business reflects their own perception of the way they are treated. If you think that companies will do anything they can to cheat you, they you will reply in kind. This is especially true if they believe that big companies are in some fundamental way "not a person" and do not merit ethical treatment. You can't cheat an inanimate object. I have no love for corporations but if you allow yourself to slip into this way of thinking then you only degrade your own sense of morality. You can begin to treat other individuals in this impersonal way of "doing business". My position is that you do yourself more harm psychologically/spiritually than you gain in the material transaction. On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Keith Whaley wrote: > Steven Desjardins wrote: >> >> I can't help but notice that this thread about customer "dishonesty" >> began as a thread about Leica foisting an imperfect product on >> someone. It doesn't surprise me that we have drifted into "whatever >> you can get away with" since that attitude in part of as many >> transactions between consumers and corporations. > > Okay. > > What’s your point? > > What do you agree with or what do you take issue with? > > keith > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
OK now I get it - TY Bill The benefits of cheap labor, I guess... Cheers Ecke 2010/5/21 William Robb : > > - Original Message - From: "eckinator" > Subject: Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9 > > >> Bill can you explain this, please - I just don't seem to catch your >> reference? > > In North America, a device box is something that a wall mounted switch (a > light switch for example) would be contained by. Due to the way they are > constructed, things like UPC stickers are put on the side of the box, but > the sides can be removed to allow two boxes to be attached together. > So, a person will buy two single device boxes, take one side off of each one > and attach the two boxes together to make a bnox that will hold two light > switches. > This leaves them with two side plates, which if they have done what they are > doing correctly, will both have a UPC sticker attached. > They bring the side plates back, hopefully get someone at the returns desk > that isn't familiar with this particular scam or what a box should look > like, and, if all goes well, they get a refund on the boxes for the side > plates that they are returning. > > William Robb > >>> How about the ones who buy two single device boxes, take the side plates >>> off >>> so as to make a two gang box and then bring the side plates back for a >>> full >>> refund? > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
Steven Desjardins wrote: I can't help but notice that this thread about customer "dishonesty" began as a thread about Leica foisting an imperfect product on someone. It doesn't surprise me that we have drifted into "whatever you can get away with" since that attitude in part of as many transactions between consumers and corporations. Okay. What’s your point? What do you agree with or what do you take issue with? keith -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
I can't help but notice that this thread about customer "dishonesty" began as a thread about Leica foisting an imperfect product on someone. It doesn't surprise me that we have drifted into "whatever you can get away with" since that attitude in part of as many transactions between consumers and corporations. On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 1:41 PM, William Robb wrote: > > - Original Message - From: "John Sessoms" > Subject: Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9 > > >> >> I understand what the single gang boxes are and about doubling to make a >> two gang box (although why not just buy a two gang box?), but I don't >> understand how you get a refund - or could expect one - from returning just >> the side plates? > > 1) Be dishonest. > 2) Find a store that has trained it's people to take refunds without > question on the theory that the bad refunds are a very small % of the total. > > Of course this leads to > 3) watch your bad refund % grow as word gets around that it is possible to > get away with this. > > True stories: > > I was putting a cart of returned 16' deck boards back on the rack. > There were a lot of them, probably close to 60. > Below the second layer of new boards, the rest were used boards, complete > with years of weathering and two screw holes every 16 inches. > > I had a 12' 2x4 come back on a cart. Except it was no longer 12', it was > closer to 11'. > And it had a screw sticking out of it. > The only justice in this one was that it was an ACQ treated board, and the > screw was on coated for ACQ, so probably by now their deck has fallen apart. > > Yesterday, a return cart of teleposts. No boxes, missing support plates and > scew jacks. > This one will be another write off of several hundred dollars when I get to > it. > > William Robb > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
- Original Message - From: "John Sessoms" Subject: Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9 I understand what the single gang boxes are and about doubling to make a two gang box (although why not just buy a two gang box?), but I don't understand how you get a refund - or could expect one - from returning just the side plates? 1) Be dishonest. 2) Find a store that has trained it's people to take refunds without question on the theory that the bad refunds are a very small % of the total. Of course this leads to 3) watch your bad refund % grow as word gets around that it is possible to get away with this. True stories: I was putting a cart of returned 16' deck boards back on the rack. There were a lot of them, probably close to 60. Below the second layer of new boards, the rest were used boards, complete with years of weathering and two screw holes every 16 inches. I had a 12' 2x4 come back on a cart. Except it was no longer 12', it was closer to 11'. And it had a screw sticking out of it. The only justice in this one was that it was an ACQ treated board, and the screw was on coated for ACQ, so probably by now their deck has fallen apart. Yesterday, a return cart of teleposts. No boxes, missing support plates and scew jacks. This one will be another write off of several hundred dollars when I get to it. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
From: eckinator Bill can you explain this, please - I just don't seem to catch your reference? TIA Ecke > > How about the ones who buy two single device boxes, take the side plates off > so as to make a two gang box and then bring the side plates back for a full > refund? Yeah, I'll second that. I understand what the single gang boxes are and about doubling to make a two gang box (although why not just buy a two gang box?), but I don't understand how you get a refund - or could expect one - from returning just the side plates? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
- Original Message - From: "eckinator" Subject: Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9 Bill can you explain this, please - I just don't seem to catch your reference? In North America, a device box is something that a wall mounted switch (a light switch for example) would be contained by. Due to the way they are constructed, things like UPC stickers are put on the side of the box, but the sides can be removed to allow two boxes to be attached together. So, a person will buy two single device boxes, take one side off of each one and attach the two boxes together to make a bnox that will hold two light switches. This leaves them with two side plates, which if they have done what they are doing correctly, will both have a UPC sticker attached. They bring the side plates back, hopefully get someone at the returns desk that isn't familiar with this particular scam or what a box should look like, and, if all goes well, they get a refund on the boxes for the side plates that they are returning. William Robb How about the ones who buy two single device boxes, take the side plates off so as to make a two gang box and then bring the side plates back for a full refund? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
Bill can you explain this, please - I just don't seem to catch your reference? TIA Ecke > > How about the ones who buy two single device boxes, take the side plates off > so as to make a two gang box and then bring the side plates back for a full > refund? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Returning defective goods : was RE: Leica M9
I would normally always 'fess up to damage that I had caused, just as I will always return excess change where the cashier makes a mistake. Sometimes, however, the retailer/supplier has a generous policy which doesn't impose a penalty for doing so. Yesterday, I found that one of the keys on my 11-month old laptop had been broken off, presumably when my grand-daughter and her friends were using it to play DVD's. Took it to the retailer, they couldn't fix it, and suggested I took it to the Toshiba service centre, about 20 minutes drive away.There the service department receptionist agreed that it had to have been broken off by maltreatment, but said their policy was to replace it under warranty anyway, so I wound up with a new keyboard fitted at no charge within 20 minutes. That sort of service will persuade me to choose Toshiba over competitors in any future buying decision, so the cost to them of this very high level of service will probably be recouped many times over. John in Brisbane -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Friday, 21 May 2010 4:10 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Leica M9 - Original Message - From: "Tom C" Subject: Re: Leica M9 I have to differ a bit with you on this Bill. Mostly agree. There are customers who set out to rip off retailers. Those who purchase an item for the time they need to use it and then return it, for example. It was not Steve it was Christian with the G11, according to the way I read. :-) IMO, there was no dishonesty involved. He brought the item back stating it stopped working. That was true. He was not asked anything further. Best Buy simply returns the item as defective, Canon refurbishes, and yes somewhere, somehow, on this individual item profit is diminished, but then again as you point out... maybe not since the pricing of the item was in place before the camera was purchased and returned. That being the case, one could reasonably argue there's no loss suffered at all, as Canon has a rough statistical idea of how many cameras will be returned, regardless of reason. Sears, as you know has made it a practice on their Craftsman hand tools to replace items, no receipt, no questions asked, regardless of how the item was abused. Do we pay for that policy at the get go when purchasing a Craftsman hand tool? Yes we do. But I, for one, like the idea that I can use a flat blade screwdriver for a crowbar and when it breaks I simply walk in and say 'it broke'. Salesman says 'Oh, OK go get another'. It's proven to be a successful policy, as far as I can tell. The system also works because that extra nickel, dime, dollar, that's tacked on by the mfr. and/or retailer is so often not used up, and extra profit is generated by it. So who's benefiting? Tom C. How about the ones who buy two single device boxes, take the side plates off so as to make a two gang box and then bring the side plates back for a full refund? The customer is always right, and so they get their refund, which means they have effectively gotten their "purchase" for free. Or the guy who cuts a board on the wrong side of the line and so returns it for a refund, even though there was nothing wrong with the product, it was as advertised. Regarding the pricing, if this sort of thing never happened, prices would be somewhat lower since the supply chain would not have to pad prices to pay for it. The one and only time I tried to have a Craftsman tool replaced, I was given somewhat of a hard time by the sales clerk. She wanted a bill of sale, etc. This for a socket that had cracked under normal use (I didn't put the thing onto an impact driver). I know how the system works, it just galls me that so many people use the threat of bad mouthing a store to take advantage of the system. They get an immediate advantage, but everyone ends up paying for it. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
