[PEN-L:9150] Re: utopianism
At 01:40 PM 3/25/97 -0800, Karl Carlile wrote: [SNIP] >KARL:Utopianism means striving for a state of being that is >unachievable. It means struggling for something that it is >historically impossible to establish. Utopianism is a political >philosophy and practice.This being utopian political activity >hinders the struggle for socialism and in that way ultimately serves >the interests of capitalism. > >To claim, as you do, that a certain amount of utopianism is not only >healthy but necessary amounts to the same thing as saying that a >certain amount of reactionary politics is good. > One need not be "utopian" to have vision. No movement worthy of respect can offer credible leadership or inspire people to struggle and sacrifice if necessary for its objectives if it is without visionaries. No movement led by visionaries who are utopians is destined to accomplish much that will endure. Karl and Frederick were pretty well grounded but were they not also visionaries?
[PEN-L:9149] Re: Final thoughts on utopianism
Yes, I saw this, hoping that it would pass without comments. Let me take this one step further. If Robin takes this in stride -- and I expect he will, then insults can be part of the rough and tumble of the list, so long as they do not become the focus to the point of distraction. You might have seen the note this afternoon from someone who mentioned a fatigued delete finger, suggesting a resignation from pen-l resulting from the lack of substance. Thanks for your cooperation. Gerald Levy wrote: > > Louis N Proyect wrote: > > > (I would urge people to shy away from Robin Hahnel's > > work, however, since he is now revealed as an intellectual snob. Isn't it > > funny how beneath the tie-dyed grooviness of a Z Magazine figure, there > > lurks somebody who wants to rub your nose in their curricula vitae.) > > Michael? > > Jerry -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 916-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PEN-L:9148] Re: customers or suckers?
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tom Walker) > Subject: [PEN-L:9141] Re: customers or suckers? > Max wrote, > > >I always thought of education as much more impersonal than > >all this, as well as more substantive. Maybe I'm the > >misanthropic exception, but I don't think so (in this context, > >at least). Once again, I smell those beans simmering on > >the stove . . . > > I hope Max isn't just trying to be funny here. Because there ARE beans > simmering on the stove! Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case! Actually, I eat a fair amount of beans myself (Cajun style), as anyone who has sat through one of my speeches could attest. MBS
[PEN-L:9147] Re: customers
On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, James Michael Craven wrote: > It seems every educational institution has the same basic reality: > > 1) Boards of Regents/Trustees who are basically political > hacks/sycophants appointed on the basis of their political > contributions (in dollars) and/or demonstrated sycophancy who have > little or no demonstrated experience/commitment in education and who > basically act as rubber stamps for imperial administrations who > carefully cut-off any direct communication from the > faculty/staff/students to the Boards; Point (1) is not always true. In the University of Colorado system, regents are elected by the general public. Several regents are elected at-large, and others are elected (I believe) from the U.S. Congressional districts. Currently there is one CU faculty member who is also a regent, and a Republican female undergraduate was elected regent last November! The term of the previous university president was marked by great conflict between the president and the regents. In fact, this conflict prompted some persons in the state to push for (ugh!) the regents to be appointed by the governor. Some regents have demonstrated themselves to be thoughtful elected officials, and others have not. One of the typical divisions among the CU regents has been between social conservatives and social liberals. The former usually originate from the more Republican parts of the state. This faction is prone to doing things such as balking at providing benefits for same-sex partners and making the Women's Studies Program a department. Regarding James Craven's other points, I will just say that some of them on occasion have applied to CU. Steven Zahniser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PEN-L:9146] Re: customers
At 11:59 AM 3/25/97 -0800, Michael wrote: >Our administration is led by lefties. Our provost is a marxist, but he >makes public announcements that we have to change. As evidence, he >tells us that McDonalds runs a successful university that does not rely >on government support -- well a few subsidies for grazing, promoting >exports and the like. We have to be able to compete with such >organization by ... well here it gets sticky. Mostly, by giving the >administration more power to run things better. > >Our chancellor was a sidekick of Charles Hurwitz, famed S&L bandit and >destroyer of forests. > >Wierd, but he does not seem any different from our lefty leadersip. I have a hard time putting much blame on administrators for the mess we're in--even pathetic McDonalds-quoting losers like yours. About six years ago, I was involved with a statewide student coalition that tried to stop cuts in education and welfare and push for tax reform to pay for it. We never ceased to be amazed at the apathy on the part of faculty at both the UCs, the CSUs, and the community colleges. Faculty assumed that all the nasty cuts would leave them unscathed, and so they weren't willing to drag their butts to Sacramento for lobbying or to work in their communities to build support for protecting CA's system of higher education. Moreover, even very left faculty were also totally unwilling to do anything to challenge the increasing influence that corporate money was having on campus (ultimately, student activists weren't either, but that's another story). The only real help we got was from a few administrators, who let us sneak in xeroxing and phoning, and sometimes leaked information we needed. Some of the most sympathetic were very pissed at the faculty, because there wasn't a lot the administrators could do w/o getting fired if they didn't have very vocal, organzied faculty support. There will always be Dogbert-like administrators running colleges. But I doubt they'd be trying the lunacy you describe if faculty had stood up when the axe was first falling on welfare moms. Anders Schneiderman Progressive Communications
[PEN-L:9145] Re: Final thoughts on utopianism
Louis N Proyect wrote: > (I would urge people to shy away from Robin Hahnel's > work, however, since he is now revealed as an intellectual snob. Isn't it > funny how beneath the tie-dyed grooviness of a Z Magazine figure, there > lurks somebody who wants to rub your nose in their curricula vitae.) Michael? Jerry
[PEN-L:9144] Final thoughts on utopianism
These are some final thoughts on the utopian socialism question. What Marx and Engels saw as three of the main features of utopian thought were: 1) Ahistoricism: The utopian socialists did not see the class struggle as the locomotive of history. While they saw socialism as being preferable to capitalism, they neither understood the historical contradictions that would undermine it in the long run, nor the historical agency that was capable of resolving these contradictions: the working-class. 2) Moralism What counts for the utopian socialists is the moral example of their program. If there is no historical agency such as the working-class to fulfill the role of abolishing class society, then it is up to the moral power of the utopian scheme to persuade humanity for the need for change. 3) Rationalism The utopian scheme must not only be morally uplifting, it must also make sense. The best utopian socialist projects would be those that stood up to relentless logical analysis. As Engels said in "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific", "To all these socialism is the expression of absolute truth, reason and justice, and has only to be discovered to conquer all the world by virtue of its own power. And as absolute truth is independent of time, space, and of the historical development of man, it is a mere accident when and where it is discovered." All of these themes are present to one degree or another in the projects of market socialists like John Roemer or their new left rivals Albert and Hahnel. At first blush, John Roemer seems an unlikely utopian since he couches his schema in hard-headed microeconomics. In "Market Socialism, a Blueprint: How Such an Economy Might Work", he says that "it is possible to use markets to allocate resources in an economy where firms are not privately owned by investors who trade stock in them with the purpose of maximizing their gain, and that the government can intervene in such an economy to influence the level and composition of investment should the people wish to do so." This doesn't sound particularly 'visionary', does it? What is particularly utopian about the schemas of Schweickart, Roemer et al is not that they have the redemptive and egalitarian power of Saint-Simon or Robert Owens, but that it is based on an ahistorical notion of how socialism comes into existence. Specifically, there is no historical agency. Roemer shares with the 19th century utopians a tendency to present a vision that is detached from history. Since history plays very little role in Roemer's thought overall, it is understandable why he would devote himself to utopian schemas. Furthermore, since AM is based on removing one of the key aspects of the Marxist understanding of capitalism --the labor theory of value-- it is difficult to see how any historical agency can carry this social transformation out. Once the class-struggle is removed, the socialist project becomes an exercise in game-playing by rational actors. Since rationalism is a cornerstone of utopian thought, market socialism would have an appeal because it is eminently rational. Answering the question of whether his schema will work, Roemer offers the following assurance: "Is it possible for a market system to equilibrate an economy in which profits are distributed as I have described and in which the government intervenes in the investment behavior of the economy by manipulating interests if the managers of firms maximize profits, facing market prices, wages and interest rates? My colleagues Joaquim Silvestre, Ignacio Ortuno, and I have studied this question, and the answer is yes." My, isn't this reassuring. There is only one problem. The difficulties we face in building socialism are not on the theoretical front, but in the application of theory. The reason for this of course is that such applications always take place in the circumstances of war, economic blockade, internal counter-revolution, etc., where even the best laid plans off mice and men often go astray. Furthermore, one has no idea how Roemer's theory can ever be put into practice since it is not really addressed to the working-class, the historical agent of change in Marxism. Who will change the world, the subscribers to "Economics and Society"? Roemer's proposals are directed toward the narrow, insular, academic world of "dueling blueprints". I suppose if one was to be given a choice of utopian worlds to identify with, a much more palatable choice would be that of their new left rivals, Albert-Hahnel. Turning to their "Looking Forward", we find a completely different set of politics and economic reasoning, but the utopian methodology is essentially the same. Their vision of how social transformation takes place is virtually identical to that of the 19th century utopians. In a reply to somebody's question about social change and human nature on the Z Magazine bulletin board, Albert states: "I look at history and see even one admirable person--someone's aunt, Che
[PEN-L:9143] Re: utopianism
On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Robin Hahnel wrote: > same book. I have taught comparative socialism for over 20 years and visited > Cuba 3 times. I have spent 6 weeks in work with Cuban planners at JUCEPLAN. > My utopian ideas are NOT UNBASED in 20th century real world experiences. > Louis, you talk too often before you know of what you speak. > Louis: I myself taught at Oxford in the 1950s. I also showed Che Guevara how to use a slide-rule.
[PEN-L:9142] Re: more on Cuba
Steve Zahniser asks that I elaborate on my suggestion that Helms-Burton (H-B) should be seen in light of inter-imperialist trade competition. My point is that while Washington is trying to starve out Cuba, H-B is also a weapon against its rivals (Canada, Europe). It is a way of insisting the US is first among equals (especially on the extraterritoriality issue). This is why WTO "free" traders oppose it, not because it is unfair to Cuba or even less that they support Castro. The Canadian and European positions on H-B that I quoted show the US has partially succeeded in this arm-twisting. I think we still disagree about the reasons for US policy. There are more than 3 decades of evidence of the profound bipartisan hostility to the Cuban revolution. My argument is that this record is trivialized by regarding it as illogical. I went too far in implicating Steve Z. in particular, but my experience is that you can't build a solid solidarity movement against an illogical policy, because most people just wait for it to play itself out (how can you reason with irrational people?) and fail to appreciate the political stakes involved (which include survival of the only government in the world worthy of the name internationalist and socialist). I don't agree with Steve that Clinton's maneuvers on H-B reflect a softer position: didn't he gain the anti-Castro vote in Miami by taking an even harder line in the elections than Dole (and Bush before)? But I do agree (and this was my original point), that the anti-Castro Cuban vote is not Clinton's main motive. Bill Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] home (604) 255-5957 fax c/o (604) 822-6150
[PEN-L:9141] Re: customers or suckers?
Max wrote, >I always thought of education as much more impersonal than >all this, as well as more substantive. Maybe I'm the >misanthropic exception, but I don't think so (in this context, >at least). Once again, I smell those beans simmering on >the stove . . . I hope Max isn't just trying to be funny here. Because there ARE beans simmering on the stove! Regards, Tom Walker ^^ knoW Ware Communications | Vancouver, B.C., CANADA | "Only in mediocre art [EMAIL PROTECTED] |does life unfold as fate." (604) 669-3286| ^^ The TimeWork Web: http://mindlink.net/knowware/worksite.htm
[PEN-L:9140] Re: customers or suckers?
> From: James Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Max S. asks a very good question: >>If students who pay for some > type of education are not customers, what are they? Suckers?<< My ill-tempered remark stems from the possibility that in considering students in the context of a 'university community,' it is possible for their rights as paying customers to be glossed over. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just alluding to the danger of a superficial take on 'community.' The bottom line is that if I'm a paying customer and you are the vendor, YOU owe ME. Such an obligation does not preclude other, less formal relationships entailing gifts, altruism, or communal feeling; but the latter do not negate a basic obligation. Some people (nobody here) act as if socialism means what yours is mine and what's mine is not under scrutiny. > Strictly speaking, suckers are a kind of customer, so they could be > both. In fact, I think that many of them are both. > > The point is that students are supposed to be _more than_ customers But a customer has rather an important status, or should. > (or suckers). At least in terms of its official rhetoric, the > university is supposed to be a community, where the students not > only "receive services" from the university but also help create the > university as an organization, contributing more than money to that > community. The university (ideally) is supposed to help the students > make such contributions. The darker side is that students are also > often treated as children, with the university acting as a > substitute parent. > > I think that one of Jane Smiley's points is that at Moo University > (and similar large universities), the students are treated like mere > customers. The bizaare Dr. Guest is simply making explicit what the > university administration wishes would remain implicit, the > atomization of community life. I guess this is better than the > approach summarized by a 1960s pamphlet that I never read, "The > Student as Nigger," which seems an overreaction to university > paternalism. Interesting blast from the past, this. This pamphlet was actually an attempt to analogize the condition of students with other (sic) forms of oppression. It didn't quite succeed, but it reflected a commendable impulse to identify with the oppressed, rather than merely feel sympathetic. Walker: Apprentices in the process of coming to know what they know. It may sound pretentious (not to mention paradoxical), but people can't be taught anything they don't already know. In agreement with Paulo Freire and Myles Horton, I see the teacher's role as helping students to discover the value and meaning of what they already know from practical experience and to learn to reflect and build on those insights instead of feeling subservient to the pronouncements of experts. Me: If that's what your selling, fine. Walker: Often students do see themselves as "customers" who are paying for the commodity that they have been told is education. This so- called education requires no ethical commitment from the customer and it involves no personal transformation. A better word for it would be Me: This suggests rather more personal interaction between student and teacher than some students might care to engage. Of course, the teacher in principle can set down whatever conditions he or she likes for a transaction, as long as the customer has the freedom to go elsewhere. I do take the point that the idea of 'customer' can lead to a passivity on the part of the student which is not conducive to learning. Walker: .. . . a "franchise in a package of cliches". The cliches are worthless but in the perverse world of inflated credentials and disdain for genuine learning they may, by sheer chance, realize a greater exchange value than any quantity of knowledge or wisdom. Usually, though, the cliches are totally depreciated by the time the student drives them out of the showroom. Me: I always thought of education as much more impersonal than all this, as well as more substantive. Maybe I'm the misanthropic exception, but I don't think so (in this context, at least). Once again, I smell those beans simmering on the stove . . . I think what all this really shows is that it's a slow day on PEN-L. MBS === Max B. SawickyEconomic Policy Institute [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1660 L Street, NW 202-775-8810 (voice) Ste. 1200 202-775-0819 (fax)Washington, DC 20036 Opinions above do not necessarily reflect the views of anyone associated with the Economic Policy Institute. ===
[PEN-L:9139] Re: customers or suckers?
At 12:19 PM 3/25/97 -0800, James Devine wrote: >Max S. asks a very good question: >>If students who pay for some type of >education are not customers, what are they? Suckers?<< > >Strictly speaking, suckers are a kind of customer, so they could be both. >In fact, I think that many of them are both. > On an erudite list of distinguished economists such as this, I am amazed no one has observed that students are "inputs" (or is it "products".or maybe both) [with a tip of the hat to Mario Savio]. While I've got the opportunity, let me observe as a new subscriber, that there sure is a lot of petty sniping that goes on here masquerading as political criticism or analysis. My delete key is starting to wear out. In solidarity, Michael Michael Eisenscher Workers Education Local 189, CWA E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 391 Adams Street Oakland, CA 94610 (510) 893-8382 (voice/fax) ~~~ "Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will." --Frederick Douglass, 1857 "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. ... corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed." -- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins) Ref: "The Lincoln Encyclopedia", Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY)
[PEN-L:9138] Re: customers
> Date sent: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:59:30 -0800 (PST) > Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: Michael Perelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject:[PEN-L:9129] customers > Our administration is led by lefties. Our provost is a marxist, but he > makes public announcements that we have to change. As evidence, he > tells us that McDonalds runs a successful university that does not rely > on government support -- well a few subsidies for grazing, promoting > exports and the like. We have to be able to compete with such > organization by ... well here it gets sticky. Mostly, by giving the > administration more power to run things better. > > Our chancellor was a sidekick of Charles Hurwitz, famed S&L bandit and > destroyer of forests. > > Wierd, but he does not seem any different from our lefty leadersip. > > Anyway, following the lead of Prof. Guest, in this time of cutbacks, one > of our great innovations is to spend more on advertising to get more > customers. > -- > Michael Perelman > Economics Department > California State University > Chico, CA 95929 > > Tel. 916-898-5321 > E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Response: It seems every educational institution has the same basic reality: 1) Boards of Regents/Trustees who are basically political hacks/sycophants appointed on the basis of their political contributions (in dollars) and/or demonstrated sycophancy who have little or no demonstrated experience/commitment in education and who basically act as rubber stamps for imperial administrations who carefully cut-off any direct communication from the faculty/staff/students to the Boards; 2) Imperial Administrations composed of megalomaniacs, power freaks, control freaks, MBA types, linear anal-retentive manipulators who arrogate all authority and presume to be the source of all wisdom; 3) faculty/staff whores and toadies of imperial administrations who do the bidding and dirty work while allowing the imperial administrations to keep their hands "clean" in return for which get their pets hired through inside jobs, get preferred sabbaticals and faculty-exchange deals, preferred capital expenditures, veto power over hiring/tenure of dissidents and potential agents of exposure of the corruption; 4) Governmental oversight bodies composed of political hacks, toadies, sycophants who turn a blind eye to corruption and/or actively obstruct processes designed to uncover corruption and waste and who do "Faustian Bargains" with imperial administrations and their whores/toadies and/or appoint the other political hacks to sit on the Boards of Regents/Trustees and transmit/operationalize their bankrupt linear policies; 5) Media covering educational issues who do their own "Faustian Bargains": (preferred access--->"The Scoop"--->Exposure--->Name/Ratings---> More Preferred Access--->... "The Spiral of SUCKcess" In return for preferred access these media understand the parameters of "permissible" (read non-threatening to one's career) discourse and inquiry and that softball questions lead to being given preferred access whereas tough questions lead to the preferred access being given to the competition. 6) Apathetic and House Marxist Acadmemia who know something is wrong and do their own kinds of tacit "Faustian Bargains" and in return for their silence and/or non-resistance are allowed to do their own self- indulgent courses, publish-or-perish (even in "radical journals") trips to conferences- - even radical ones, etc. Jim Craven *--* * James Craven * " For those who have fought for it, * * Dept of Economics* freedom has a taste the protected * * Clark College* will never know." * * 1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd. *Otto von Bismark * * Vancouver, Wa. 98663 * * * (360) 992-2283 * * * [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * * MY EMPLOYER HAS NO ASSOCIATION WITH MY PRIVATE/PROTECTED OPINION *
[PEN-L:9137] Re: utopianism
For what it's worth, I respect Robin and Michael's effort to introduce a democratic aspect to the planning process, which seems to me to be the main virtue of their system. I also note that I raised one problem (aggregation) that has so far not received an answer. Barkley Rosser On Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:59:25 -0800 (PST) Robin Hahnel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Michael Albert and I developed our utopian model of a participatory economy > in large part in response to our historical evaluation of the strengths and > weaknesses of the Soviet, Chinese, Yugoslavian, and Cuban experiences. We > wrote about those experiences for 2/3 of a book -- Socialism Today and > Tomorrow (SEP 1981) -- before offering any utopian ideas for 1/3 of the > same book. I have taught comparative socialism for over 20 years and visited > Cuba 3 times. I have spent 6 weeks in work with Cuban planners at JUCEPLAN. > My utopian ideas are NOT UNBASED in 20th century real world experiences. > Louis, you talk too often before you know of what you speak. -- Rosser Jr, John Barkley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PEN-L:9136] Re: four minor points
Max Sawicky asked, >If students who pay for some type of education are not >customers, what are they? Suckers? Apprentices in the process of coming to know what they know. It may sound pretentious (not to mention paradoxical), but people can't be taught anything they don't already know. In agreement with Paulo Freire and Myles Horton, I see the teacher's role as helping students to discover the value and meaning of what they already know from practical experience and to learn to reflect and build on those insights instead of feeling subservient to the pronouncements of experts. Often students do see themselves as "customers" who are paying for the commodity that they have been told is education. This so-called education requires no ethical commitment from the customer and it involves no personal transformation. A better word for it would be a "franchise in a package of cliches". The cliches are worthless but in the perverse world of inflated credentials and disdain for genuine learning they may, by sheer chance, realize a greater exchange value than any quantity of knowledge or wisdom. Usually, though, the cliches are totally depreciated by the time the student drives them out of the showroom. Regards, Tom Walker ^^ knoW Ware Communications | Vancouver, B.C., CANADA | "Only in mediocre art [EMAIL PROTECTED] |does life unfold as fate." (604) 669-3286| ^^ The TimeWork Web: http://mindlink.net/knowware/worksite.htm
[PEN-L:9135] Re: utopianism
A KARL CARLILE MESSAGE KARL: Hi Rosser! ROSSER: But, I think that a certain amount of it is not only healthy but necessary. KARL:Utopianism means striving for a state of being that is unachievable. It means struggling for something that it is historically impossible to establish. Utopianism is a political philosophy and practice.This being utopian political activity hinders the struggle for socialism and in that way ultimately serves the interests of capitalism. To claim, as you do, that a certain amount of utopianism is not only healthy but necessary amounts to the same thing as saying that a certain amount of reactionary politics is good. Yours etc., Karl
[PEN-L:9134] Re: M-G: Congo: People wins!
DAVID: Do the people win? The people win if they can take control of the popular struggle against the Mobutu regime and prevent Kabila from setting up another imperialist client regime. Kabila may have a long track record as a rebel, but he looks today like any other nationalist leader trying to win control of the mineral resources of Zaire from the corrupt, dictatorial Mobutu clique, in order to offer his services to imperialism. KARL: It is questionable as to whether one can talk of a modern industrial working class as existing in Zaire in any real substantive sense. Sub-Saharan Africa has been experiencing a feeble accumulation of capital. Capital inflows to this region have diminished to a trickle. It is the lack of even moderate industrialisation in this region that constitutes a key factor in the poverty, wars and instability that dogs this region. Consequently to simply focus in on most recent and most conspicuous crisis, as David does, gets marxism nowhere. What is needed is an understanding of why and how sub-Saharan Africa in particular, and perhaps even virtually the entire continent, has experienced what many commentators would describe as de-industrialisation. Marxism promotes the Law of the Tendency of the Rate of Profit to Fall as a central law of contemporary capitalism. Yet if this law is operating why is that industrial capital is failing to migrate to sub-Saharan Africa where the general rate of profit, logically speaking,is higher than in the so-called core economies such as the States, Europe and Japan. Indeed capital flows are are heavily concentrated between the imperialist economies despite claims by marxism that the Tendency of the Rate of Profit to fall is a law. Until marxism offers a valid explanation of economic conditions in sub-Saharan Africa it will have essentially offered nothing in the way of an explanation of world economic conditions. An analysis of events in Zaire must be placed within the context of an overall analysis of conditions in sub-Saraharan Africa. Yours etc., Karl
[PEN-L:9133] Re: M-G: Congo: People wins! US govt., Trot etc muppets los
A KARL CARLILE MESSAGE: DAVID: Therefore, while Kabila is fighting a genuine struggle against Mobutu for democracy we can point our guns in the same direction. However, we cannot give him any political support. revolutionaries have to fight for their armed independence and to mobilise workers and poor peasants under their own class banner. KARL: Your above remarks make little sense. If Kabila is "fighting a genuine struggle against Mobutu for democracy" then it follows that that it must be have a revolutionary working class character. However since it is patently lacks this character it cannot be a geunine struggle for democracy. You also suggest that "we" point our guns in the same direction as Kabila while not giving him political support. This is absurd. If you are pointing your guns in the same direction as Kabila then, by that token, you are giving him political support. Here we have an example from you of the classic Trotskyist formula of wanting to have one's cake and eat it. Orthodox trotskyism is infamous fro this opportunist formula. They have ad nauseam proclaimed it in relation to the Provisiaonl IRA aremed activities in Ireland. Their view is that Trotskyism can support the right of the IRA to engage in armed struggle (plant bombs that blow up civilians including young children) against British imperialism while disagreeing with the character of that so called armed struggle. This is so opportunist and theoreticaly stupid a formula. It is like saying that I support your right to rape a woman but I dont agree with your raping her. Incidentally this "we" in "we can point our guns in the same direction" is a further expression of your complacent stupiditity. It is not YOU who is pointing your gun or guns at anybody. No! You are comfortably ensconced in your seat in front of your PC. From this comfortable ethno-centric position it is so easy for you to say in what direction guns should be pointed. However it is not you nor your family and friends that are being killed, wounded and displaced in war-torn Zaire. So COP ON! Yours etc., Karl
[PEN-L:9132] Re: utopianism
Michael Albert and I developed our utopian model of a participatory economy in large part in response to our historical evaluation of the strengths and weaknesses of the Soviet, Chinese, Yugoslavian, and Cuban experiences. We wrote about those experiences for 2/3 of a book -- Socialism Today and Tomorrow (SEP 1981) -- before offering any utopian ideas for 1/3 of the same book. I have taught comparative socialism for over 20 years and visited Cuba 3 times. I have spent 6 weeks in work with Cuban planners at JUCEPLAN. My utopian ideas are NOT UNBASED in 20th century real world experiences. Louis, you talk too often before you know of what you speak.
[PEN-L:9131] Re: utopianism
Here! Here! Let's here it for a Jim Devine's defense of utopian thinking. And, I'd like to add that I consider my recent reading of Bellamy's Equality -- his lesser known but more complete work on utopianism -- and William Morris' News from Nowwhere -- a libertarian response to what Morris considered to be Bellamy's "too technocratic" utopianism -- to be among the more fruitful things I've read over the past decade.
[PEN-L:9130] customers or suckers?
Max S. asks a very good question: >>If students who pay for some type of education are not customers, what are they? Suckers?<< Strictly speaking, suckers are a kind of customer, so they could be both. In fact, I think that many of them are both. The point is that students are supposed to be _more than_ customers (or suckers). At least in terms of its official rhetoric, the university is supposed to be a community, where the students not only "receive services" from the university but also help create the university as an organization, contributing more than money to that community. The university (ideally) is supposed to help the students make such contributions. The darker side is that students are also often treated as children, with the university acting as a substitute parent. I think that one of Jane Smiley's points is that at Moo University (and similar large universities), the students are treated like mere customers. The bizaare Dr. Guest is simply making explicit what the university administration wishes would remain implicit, the atomization of community life. I guess this is better than the approach summarized by a 1960s pamphlet that I never read, "The Student as Nigger," which seems an overreaction to university paternalism. sheet! I wasn't going to post any more to pen-l today. But it's lunch time... in pen-l solidarity, Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Econ. Dept., Loyola Marymount Univ. 7900 Loyola Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90045-8410 USA 310/338-2948 (daytime, during workweek); FAX: 310/338-1950 "It takes a busload of faith to get by." -- Lou Reed.
[PEN-L:9129] customers
Our administration is led by lefties. Our provost is a marxist, but he makes public announcements that we have to change. As evidence, he tells us that McDonalds runs a successful university that does not rely on government support -- well a few subsidies for grazing, promoting exports and the like. We have to be able to compete with such organization by ... well here it gets sticky. Mostly, by giving the administration more power to run things better. Our chancellor was a sidekick of Charles Hurwitz, famed S&L bandit and destroyer of forests. Wierd, but he does not seem any different from our lefty leadersip. Anyway, following the lead of Prof. Guest, in this time of cutbacks, one of our great innovations is to spend more on advertising to get more customers. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 916-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PEN-L:9128] Re: four minor points
Father Devine and Tom Walker, > 1. If you haven't read Jane Smiley's comic novel MOO, do so. It's > got great descriptions of the economist, Dr. Guest, who thinks of > students as "customers" and trains them (with evangelistic glee) to > be individualistic free-riders. He loves the fact that the results > fit with his a priori vision of human nature. (This fits perfectly > with the studies that indicate that economics courses have this > effect.) It's about a university that's suffering from massive > cut-backs. If students who pay for some type of education are not customers, what are they? Suckers? (It should be clear that being a customer does not imply an affinity for free-riding, nor for mainstream economics courses and the values they may inculcate.) Militant Consumer === Max B. SawickyEconomic Policy Institute [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1660 L Street, NW 202-775-8810 (voice) Ste. 1200 202-775-0819 (fax)Washington, DC 20036 ===
[PEN-L:9127] trading snide and petty insults
For example: >> I know you're trying to be constructive after your recent >> personality crisis - focusing on the positive can be very therapeutic. And: >You certainly have a way of raising the quality of discussion. I would like to suggest that those who wish to trade snide and petty insults do so privately, off-list, thus sparing us bandwidth. Thanks. Blair Sandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Oh our work is more than our jobs and our life is more than our work. -- Charlie King, "Our Life is More Than Our Jobs" Wouldn't it be nice, to take it easy for a while? Wouldn't it be nice, to call in dead for work? And sit on the sidelines, watching the rats run by? -- "The Rats are Winning," by Charlie King. _
[PEN-L:9126] Foucault
Okay, to used a mixed metaphor, I'll bite this thread. I have a love/hate relationship with Foucault's work that includes both a lot of respect and a lot of problems. I think Foucault deserves our respect if for nothing else because he was a political activist who was out on the streets confronting cops, helping prisoners organize themselves and speak out, and fully immersed in gay and lesbian grassroots activism. This is more than one can say of most other Pomo authors and, unfortunately, of most people on Pen-L for that matter. I think it's grossly unfair to just dsimiss him with a comment of "rubbish." Foucault's main influence on today's lesbian and gay movement is probably his conception of power. For Foucault, power is mainly exercised through control over discourse: People in power control how our lives are spoken about and what options we are allowed to declare for ourselves. The objective of people whose power is taken from them is to find ways to speak up and to point to the contradictions in the dominant discourse as a way of exploding it. This type of thinking has had a temendous influence on the AIDS activist movement. At the beginning of the epidemic, people with AIDS were talked about through the discourse of public health, and policies that were most widely thrown out were those of control (quarantine, contact tracing, etc.). Through the process of self-organization and speaking out in various ways, people with AIDS (fka, "AIDS victims") began to be seen as faces and human beings. They began to appear in unexpected places demanding things on their behalf. Tactics in AIDS activism have often centered around finding ways to poke holes in public discussion, whether through embarrassing people in high places, getting arrested for doing "reasonable" things, or simply rasing spectacles where bourgeois propriety (and the law) would not have them. The discouse now focuses on treatments for PWAs and support for people in high-risk groups. Thinking about activism this way is not a substitute for a materialist analysis of AIDS or anything else. ACT UP has always made some clear materialist points: Our main enemies are drug companies who do research on a for-profit basis, ignoring promising but unprofitable therapies and charging tens of thousands of dollars a year for the drugs they do develop (I and 72 other people were arrested yesterday for blocking access to the New York Stock Exchange in protest of drug prices). Our other big enemy is the for-profit health care system and we are very clear on why the US has no universal health coverage. People in ACT UP also have a very clear understanding of how corporations control public research funding and the state in general. It is problematic that Foucault saw his analysis in contradiction to materialism in many ways. Primarily, his analysis of the "repressive hypothesis" in the first volume of _The History of Sexuality_ describes the repression of homosexuality as waning throughout the century because the discourse around homosexuality was expoloding, and he offers this piece in response to materialist critics. This is a very different history from, say, John D'Emilio's _Capitalism and Gay Identity_, which describes material repression of homosexuality in response to the growth of gay and lesbian households in the early twentieth century. I side unambiguously with D'Emilio, but I also think that Foucault's points about exploding discourse are worth tackling because understanding consciousness is a big part of understanding the subjective element of making history. It is possible that the right stew of Marx, Gramsci and Chomsky could come up with a basis of understanding discourse that is firmly grounded in materialism. But it hasn't happened yet, at least not in a way that incorporates the many innovative ideas about seizing language that Foucault held. Foucault wrote at a time when the relationship between Marxism and feminism was still being redefined, and when Marxist discourse about homosexuality was barely existent. Many marxists still have bad sexual politics. Meanwhile, Foucault has influenced many lesbian and gay academics and political activists. It is partly due to his influence, I think, that the Marxian discourse about homosexuality has changed. He does not deserve to be spat on. Comradely, Tavis
[PEN-L:9125] Re: four minor points
Jim Devine wrote, >1. If you haven't read Jane Smiley's comic novel MOO, do so. It's got great >descriptions of the economist, Dr. Guest, who thinks of students as >"customers" and trains them (with evangelistic glee) to be individualistic >free-riders. He loves the fact that the results fit with his a priori >vision of human nature. (This fits perfectly with the studies that indicate >that economics courses have this effect.) It's about a university that's >suffering from massive cut-backs. Life imitates art department -- speaking of students as "customers", here's part of a memo I received from the director of a night schoool program where I teach a course: "But it must be emphasized that we work within a full cost recoverable operation and as such the needs of our customers must come first. This need to be answerable to the marketplace, as mentioned earlier, is very important to our survival. Let me reiterate that while [name of institution deleted] credit programs do receive public monies, Continuing Studies non-credit operations do not. This department is not mandated by the province and we exist only to the extent that we are able to fully recover our costs." Regards, Tom Walker ^^ knoW Ware Communications | Vancouver, B.C., CANADA | "Only in mediocre art [EMAIL PROTECTED] |does life unfold as fate." (604) 669-3286| ^^ The TimeWork Web: http://mindlink.net/knowware/worksite.htm
[PEN-L:9124] FW: Daily Report
> BLS DAILY REPORT, MONDAY, MARCH 24, 1997: > > BLS reports the prices of goods imported into the United States > declined by 0.7 percent seasonally adjusted in February, the third > decrease in the last 4 months (Daily Labor Report, page D-1). > > After a modest downturn in the first quarter of 1997, hiring prospects > are likely to improve during the spring months, according to > projections from 239 respondents to BNA's latest quarterly employment > survey. Plans to hire additional production/service, office/clerical, > and technical/professional employees each are up from projections for > the first 3 months of 1997. Moreover, reports of workers on layoff > dropped off from levels recorded 3 months ago (Daily Labor Report, > page D-3). > > A "Careers" section of The Washington Times (page F7) says that a > survey released by the Employee Benefit Research Institute shows that > job tenure for male workers is on the decline, while tenure for female > workers has been holding fairly steady. Pulling together census data > and information from BLS, the Washington-based public policy research > organization found that job security for males dropped from 1983 to > 1996 in all four age groups studied. At the same time, two of four > female age groups showed slight reductions in tenure, while the other > two age groups showed modest gains. "I think what we see is the > male-female differential for job tenure goes hand-in-hand with the > differential in earnings," says Paul Yakoboski, who supervised the > survey. "Men still have longer job tenure than women, but women are > closing the gap, just as they are closing the gap over time on > earnings." The study confirms the slipping job security that workers > have been sensing in the 90s, he says. > > One in four U.S. families cares for aging relatives, says the National > Alliance for Caregiving and the American the American Association of > Retired Persons and the Glaxo Welcome, the world's largest > prescription drug company. Nearly half of caregivers said they had > given up personal activities, hobbies and vacations. The profile of > caregivers included with the article shows that 72 percent are women, > 30 percent are carrying for two or more elderly relatives or friends, > 64 percent are employed full-time or part time, and 41 percent also > are caring for children under 18. The survey found that those > caregivers who work often find their jobs suffering, and some > eventually quit completely or take early retirement. The costs of > absenteeism, shortened or interrupted workdays, decreased productivity > and replacing employees who leave are at least $11.4 billion a > year...and may exceed $29 billion, according to a separate analysis of > the survey results (The Washington Post, page A13). > > "It used to be a given that along with or soon after a merger would > come the announcement on how many jobs would be cut. That is no > longer the case. In the first 2 months of 1997, just 3,510 (4.1 > percent) of 84,075 job cuts announced have been merger related," > according to John A. Challenger, president, Challenger, Gray & > Christmas. "That is a 48.1 percent decrease from the first 2 months of > 1996. Companies are realizing that reducing the number of employees > after a merger is not always the best way to cut costs and maximize > profits" (The Washington Times, Business section, page D17). > > An op. ed. article in The Washington Post (March 22, page A22) by Arti > V. Finn calls for a multiracial category in the Census. > > An article on District of Columbia jobs says that nationally, the > unemployment rate has been less than 5.5 percent for more than a year. > The last time the rate was that low was in 1989-90. Wages and salary > levels climbed 4.2 percent in 1990. Last year, however, wages > increased only 3.3 percent. The reason wages are subdued now "appears > to be mainly the consequence of greater worker insecurity," Fed > Chairman Alan Greenspan said before a Senate committee last month (The > Washington Post, March 22, page D1). > > Most public and private colleges will keep tuition increases down to > 3-5 percent next year, according to the National Association of > Independent Colleges and Universities (USA Today, page D1). > > Workplace training: A snapshot -- a series of charts in The > Washington Business section of The Washington Post (page 12) shows > what percentage of employees receive outside training, what percentage > receive various kinds of computer training;, and what percentage > receive other types of training. > The source of the data is American Society for Training and > Development. > >
[PEN-L:9123] four minor points
1. If you haven't read Jane Smiley's comic novel MOO, do so. It's got great descriptions of the economist, Dr. Guest, who thinks of students as "customers" and trains them (with evangelistic glee) to be individualistic free-riders. He loves the fact that the results fit with his a priori vision of human nature. (This fits perfectly with the studies that indicate that economics courses have this effect.) It's about a university that's suffering from massive cut-backs. 2. I realized that there is class struggle in Albert and Hahnel's books on participatory planning: it's a struggle _against_ the would-be coordinator class who they think of as the ruling class of the old USSR. BTW, they also have a bunch of other books, which talk about such issues of how to get from here to there (i.e., to socialism) and criticize official Marxisms. 3. While surveying the SURVEY OF CURRENT BUSINESS, I noticed that according to government calculations, the rate of profit is rising steeply (July 1996, p. 118). That fits with other calculations I've seen (the OECD, stories in BUSINESS WEEK). 4. Ernst Fischer's HOW TO READ KARL MARX (Monthly Review, 1996) is pretty good. It might make a good textbook. It presents a Marxist-humanist perspective. that's it for today. in pen-l solidarity, Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Econ. Dept., Loyola Marymount Univ. 7900 Loyola Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90045-8410 USA 310/338-2948 (daytime, during workweek); FAX: 310/338-1950 "It takes a busload of faith to get by." -- Lou Reed.
[PEN-L:9122] FW: BLS Daily Report
> BLS DAILY REPORT, FRIDAY, MARCH 21, 1997 > > RELEASED TODAY: The U.S. Import Price Index decreased 0.7 percent in > February. The decline followed a 0.2 percent decrease in January and > was attributable to a sharp drop in petroleum prices. The U.S. Export > Price Index edged up 0.1 percent in February, after advancing 0.2 > percent in the previous month > > BLS reports the number of mass layoff events was estimated at 1,801 in > December 1996, marking a decline of 10.4 percent from the year-earlier > total With the release of December layoff data, BLS is moving > toward a more timely schedule of releasing the monthly mass layoff > data, which was developed in fits and starts due to funding changes > over the last few years (Daily Labor Report, page D-3). > > Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan signaled yesterday that the > central bank is likely to raise short-term interest rates when Fed > policymakers meet on Tuesday. Fed officials said any increase would > be no more than a quarter of a percentage point. Greenspan told the > Joint Economic Committee that he was concerned that unexpectedly > strong economic growth could, if it continues, drive the nation's 5.3 > percent unemployment rate even lower and cause inflation to rise later > this year or in 1998 He agreed that there is no indication in > recent reports on consumer or producer prices that inflation is > actually rising. Wages have gradually increased over the course of > last year, but that hasn't caused any inflation problem because the > higher wages have been matched by improved productivity > (Washington Post, page G1; New York Times, page C1; Wall Street > Journal, page A2) > > New claims for unemployment benefits rose by 3,000 to 312,000 in the > week ended March 15. The slight increase still left claims near their > lowest level in almost nine years (Daily Labor Report, page D-1; > Wall Street Journal, page A2). > > The trade deficit in goods and services widened significantly in > January, by 21.1 percent, Commerce Department data show. Analysts > were taken off guard by the extent of the widening of the trade gap, > although many predicted a surge in early 1997 after a narrowing of the > deficit in the fourth quarter of 1996. Economists say the surge in > January can be attributed to a few special factors. These include a > huge drop off in aircraft exports after a surge in the fourth quarter, > which drove down exports. Also, higher oil prices raised the cost of > imports, and the United States saw a surge of auto imports from Canada > (Daily Labor Report, page D-7) _In January, a strong U.S. > economy drew in imports to meet vibrant consumer demand while > struggling Europe and Japan offered a less buoyant market for > American-made goods. Costly imported oil and an appreciating dollar > that priced up U.S. goods for foreigners also helped tip the balance > (Washington Post, page C2)_The figures include a 36 percent > increase in the deficit with China that will further complicate the > politics of Vice President Al Gore's trip to Beijing next week > (New York Times, page A1; Wall Street Journal, page A2). > > With Census 2000 just three years away, the U.S. Census Bureau plans > to present Congress next month with a tighter version of its most > comprehensive data-gathering questionnaire. The so-called long form, > which collects information on such things as income, housing, > transportation choices, and jobs, and provides information on which > businesses base countless decisions is under fire for being too > expensive and too cumbersome Commerce Department Undersecretary > Everett Ehrlich says Census will testify April 10 before the > subcommittee with control over the Census budget and present a form > that has fewer questions than the 1990 version, which had 20 pages and > about 60 questions The only questions set to be included in the > 2000 version will be questions either "directed by law or required by > law," Ehrlich said. Supporters of the long form are afraid that what > they consider to be the most comprehensive form of national > data-gathering will become obsolete (Wall Street Journal, page > B9A). > > Executives at more than two dozen of the nation's largest corporations > have been meeting quietly over the past year to brainstorm ways to > recruit and retain workers who make less than $8.50 an hour The > human resources executives have dubbed themselves the Employer Group > To try and help -- and keep -- their low-wage workers, some > employers are providing such services as: subsidized child care; > on-the-job immigration and tax-filing advice; food discounts to > workers' families; free prenatal programs for employees or spouses; a > telephone hot line to social workers who help with transportation and > child-care crises; a dormitory for employees who had been living in > crowded, unsanitary conditions; and specializ
[PEN-L:9119] Slovenia
Much of what Louis P. says is correct. However, he neglects to note that the policy of Tito in the immediate aftermath of WW II was ultra-Stalinist. He was viewed as more Stalinist than Hoxha, Rakosi, or Ulbricht. According to Milovan Djilas (_The Unperfect Society: Beyond the New Class_) it was in Spring 1950, after the split with Stalin, that Djilas himself thought up the workers' managment idea and then sold it to Kardelj and Kidric who then sold it to Tito. There was a tradition, especially in Serbia of peasant coops going back to the zadruga. There remains much controversy about the degree of workers' management in Yugoslav firms. Workers selected workers' councils, but in practice these often had little power. But this varied from republic to republic with corruption and party influence greater in some areas than others. Slovenia tended to be less corrupt and its firms ran more like the "model" said they should. The inter-republic differences are not all path dependence due to previous trade relations. Barkley Rosser -- Rosser Jr, John Barkley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
